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CA please change the Coatl's head

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  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,250
    edited July 12



    But that's different. As you have rightly said, it's the tip that's a different color.
    So just the short curved section of the creature's whole mouth.

    In the case of this Coatl, it's the whole mouth, that's been transformed to a beak instead.

    Plus, although this might be just my subjective outlook on colors interaction, the black-red and white-blue pairings are in a much closer relationship than a blue-yellow combo.

    Although who knows, if it was just the tip of the mouth painted yellow and the Coatl's mouth was actually dragon like and blue, it might irk me a lot less.

    True, dragons don't have actual beaks, but a lot of birds actually have black beaks.
    Anyway, maybe CA/GW gave it a full beak precisely because they wanted to make it look less like a dragon.

    I don't think a curved snout with contrast colour highlight would satisfy most the snake/beakless reptilian head crowd.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,580
    Abmong said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:

    While those dragons have curved snouts, I don't think those resemble a beak as much as the Coatl's face-thingie does.

    And the fact that it's a completely different color from its head (same as its... ears? fins?) draws attention to and emphasizes those features so much more.

    Whilst the dragons' mouths on the pictures above are the same, or close enough color to the rest of its head and body, to keep the color scheme coherent.
    On some official showcase models, the curved tips are actually painted a different colour, giving the snouts quite a beaky appearance.

    image
    image
    image
    Those aren't bird beaks, though. And some of them have the same colour as their heads, for example both depictions of Minaithnir:


    Abmong said:



    But that's different. As you have rightly said, it's the tip that's a different color.
    So just the short curved section of the creature's whole mouth.

    In the case of this Coatl, it's the whole mouth, that's been transformed to a beak instead.

    Plus, although this might be just my subjective outlook on colors interaction, the black-red and white-blue pairings are in a much closer relationship than a blue-yellow combo.

    Although who knows, if it was just the tip of the mouth painted yellow and the Coatl's mouth was actually dragon like and blue, it might irk me a lot less.

    True, dragons don't have actual beaks, but a lot of birds actually have black beaks.
    Anyway, maybe CA/GW gave it a full beak precisely because they wanted to make it look less like a dragon.

    I don't think a curved snout with contrast colour highlight would satisfy most the snake/beakless reptilian head crowd.
    According to CA, it is supposed to be a Dragon head:


    The long, feathered wings of the Coatl spread high above the field of battle, casting shadow over the forces of Chaos and raining magical fury down on their ranks. With the head of a Dragon and a scaled, serpentine body, the Coatl forms an intimidating silhouette before the sun. Blocking the rays of light above its own forces, the Lizardmen army in its shadow is obscured, shielded from the eyes of their enemies.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 6,711
    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    Source:


    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:



    Coatl in TWW:

    This



    Looks Closer to This



    Than This


  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,250

    Abmong said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:

    While those dragons have curved snouts, I don't think those resemble a beak as much as the Coatl's face-thingie does.

    And the fact that it's a completely different color from its head (same as its... ears? fins?) draws attention to and emphasizes those features so much more.

    Whilst the dragons' mouths on the pictures above are the same, or close enough color to the rest of its head and body, to keep the color scheme coherent.
    On some official showcase models, the curved tips are actually painted a different colour, giving the snouts quite a beaky appearance.

    image
    image
    image
    Those aren't bird beaks, though. And some of them have the same colour as their heads, for example both depictions of Minaithnir:


    Abmong said:



    But that's different. As you have rightly said, it's the tip that's a different color.
    So just the short curved section of the creature's whole mouth.

    In the case of this Coatl, it's the whole mouth, that's been transformed to a beak instead.

    Plus, although this might be just my subjective outlook on colors interaction, the black-red and white-blue pairings are in a much closer relationship than a blue-yellow combo.

    Although who knows, if it was just the tip of the mouth painted yellow and the Coatl's mouth was actually dragon like and blue, it might irk me a lot less.

    True, dragons don't have actual beaks, but a lot of birds actually have black beaks.
    Anyway, maybe CA/GW gave it a full beak precisely because they wanted to make it look less like a dragon.

    I don't think a curved snout with contrast colour highlight would satisfy most the snake/beakless reptilian head crowd.
    According to CA, it is supposed to be a Dragon head:


    The long, feathered wings of the Coatl spread high above the field of battle, casting shadow over the forces of Chaos and raining magical fury down on their ranks. With the head of a Dragon and a scaled, serpentine body, the Coatl forms an intimidating silhouette before the sun. Blocking the rays of light above its own forces, the Lizardmen army in its shadow is obscured, shielded from the eyes of their enemies.
    It was as close to being beaks as possible without being beaks though
    and the Coatls head in game is as close as possible without being actually dragon's head.

    GW could've just wanting to update the design and not use an actual dragon's head but remain respectful and close enough to the description of dragon's head.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,250
    edited July 12
    OdTengri said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    Source:


    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:



    Coatl in TWW:

    This



    Looks Closer to This



    Than This



    This
    image

    Looks closer to this
    image

    than this
    image
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • AscythianAscythian Registered Users Posts: 96
    All rather pointless when you consider that Kroxigors look nothing like their original artwork and models.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 6,711
    Ascythian said:

    All rather pointless when you consider that Kroxigors look nothing like their original artwork and models.

    Maybe but at least they look good. Also they look like Crocodile + Man, these do not look like Feathered Serpents.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,580
    Abmong said:

    Abmong said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:

    While those dragons have curved snouts, I don't think those resemble a beak as much as the Coatl's face-thingie does.

    And the fact that it's a completely different color from its head (same as its... ears? fins?) draws attention to and emphasizes those features so much more.

    Whilst the dragons' mouths on the pictures above are the same, or close enough color to the rest of its head and body, to keep the color scheme coherent.
    On some official showcase models, the curved tips are actually painted a different colour, giving the snouts quite a beaky appearance.

    image
    image
    image
    Those aren't bird beaks, though. And some of them have the same colour as their heads, for example both depictions of Minaithnir:


    Abmong said:



    But that's different. As you have rightly said, it's the tip that's a different color.
    So just the short curved section of the creature's whole mouth.

    In the case of this Coatl, it's the whole mouth, that's been transformed to a beak instead.

    Plus, although this might be just my subjective outlook on colors interaction, the black-red and white-blue pairings are in a much closer relationship than a blue-yellow combo.

    Although who knows, if it was just the tip of the mouth painted yellow and the Coatl's mouth was actually dragon like and blue, it might irk me a lot less.

    True, dragons don't have actual beaks, but a lot of birds actually have black beaks.
    Anyway, maybe CA/GW gave it a full beak precisely because they wanted to make it look less like a dragon.

    I don't think a curved snout with contrast colour highlight would satisfy most the snake/beakless reptilian head crowd.
    According to CA, it is supposed to be a Dragon head:


    The long, feathered wings of the Coatl spread high above the field of battle, casting shadow over the forces of Chaos and raining magical fury down on their ranks. With the head of a Dragon and a scaled, serpentine body, the Coatl forms an intimidating silhouette before the sun. Blocking the rays of light above its own forces, the Lizardmen army in its shadow is obscured, shielded from the eyes of their enemies.
    It was as close to being beaks as possible without being beaks though
    and the Coatls head in game is as close as possible without being actually dragon's head.

    GW could've just wanting to update the design and not use an actual dragon's head but remain respectful and close enough to the description of dragon's head.
    No. The Coatl's head looks a lot more like a Cockatrice than a Dragon.

    Then they have it missed by a mile.
  • QuiAuitLQuiAuitL Registered Users Posts: 22
    Objectively, Coatl is ugly.
  • YrellianYrellian Registered Users Posts: 1,964
    Abmong said:

    OdTengri said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    Source:


    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:



    Coatl in TWW:

    This



    Looks Closer to This



    Than This



    This
    image

    Looks closer to this
    image

    than this
    image
    You’ve got a point. The long beak/snout, the tongue, the overall body shape. Quite an interesting observation.

    His Royal Highness, Phoenix King Finubar!

    "It has been too long since I drew a blade in anger, Tyrion. You have been my sword, and Teclis has been my shield. But now it is time I fought my own battles!"

    I used to be crazycrix, then Epic happened and I became Dubinekdubajs, which I had to change again😀
  • QuiAuitLQuiAuitL Registered Users Posts: 22
    The head definitely needs to be changed, a Coatl with a beak looks flawed. I see that many people do not even understand what a dragon's head should look like...the dragon has no beak. CA do not know how to make the heads of dragons and snakes are visible.
  • obippoobippo Member Registered Users Posts: 2,676
    +1, UpUpUp
    Always be aware when a Content Refusing Troll Brigade (CRTB) representative is near. Contact your local Witch Hunter for further info.


  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,580
    edited July 12
    Yrellian said:

    Abmong said:

    OdTengri said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    Source:


    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:



    Coatl in TWW:

    This



    Looks Closer to This



    Than This



    This
    image

    Looks closer to this
    image

    than this
    image
    You’ve got a point. The long beak/snout, the tongue, the overall body shape. Quite an interesting observation.
    I don't see it.
    QuiAuitL said:

    The head definitely needs to be changed, a Coatl with a beak looks flawed. I see that many people do not even understand what a dragon's head should look like...the dragon has no beak. CA do not know how to make the heads of dragons and snakes are visible.

    It's GW's thing. They like to put snouts on dragons. Stardrakes in AoS have them too, a bit less pronounces though. Personally, I do like them, but bird beaks they are not.



  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,250

    Abmong said:

    Abmong said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:

    While those dragons have curved snouts, I don't think those resemble a beak as much as the Coatl's face-thingie does.

    And the fact that it's a completely different color from its head (same as its... ears? fins?) draws attention to and emphasizes those features so much more.

    Whilst the dragons' mouths on the pictures above are the same, or close enough color to the rest of its head and body, to keep the color scheme coherent.
    On some official showcase models, the curved tips are actually painted a different colour, giving the snouts quite a beaky appearance.

    image
    image
    image
    Those aren't bird beaks, though. And some of them have the same colour as their heads, for example both depictions of Minaithnir:


    Abmong said:



    But that's different. As you have rightly said, it's the tip that's a different color.
    So just the short curved section of the creature's whole mouth.

    In the case of this Coatl, it's the whole mouth, that's been transformed to a beak instead.

    Plus, although this might be just my subjective outlook on colors interaction, the black-red and white-blue pairings are in a much closer relationship than a blue-yellow combo.

    Although who knows, if it was just the tip of the mouth painted yellow and the Coatl's mouth was actually dragon like and blue, it might irk me a lot less.

    True, dragons don't have actual beaks, but a lot of birds actually have black beaks.
    Anyway, maybe CA/GW gave it a full beak precisely because they wanted to make it look less like a dragon.

    I don't think a curved snout with contrast colour highlight would satisfy most the snake/beakless reptilian head crowd.
    According to CA, it is supposed to be a Dragon head:


    The long, feathered wings of the Coatl spread high above the field of battle, casting shadow over the forces of Chaos and raining magical fury down on their ranks. With the head of a Dragon and a scaled, serpentine body, the Coatl forms an intimidating silhouette before the sun. Blocking the rays of light above its own forces, the Lizardmen army in its shadow is obscured, shielded from the eyes of their enemies.
    It was as close to being beaks as possible without being beaks though
    and the Coatls head in game is as close as possible without being actually dragon's head.

    GW could've just wanting to update the design and not use an actual dragon's head but remain respectful and close enough to the description of dragon's head.
    No. The Coatl's head looks a lot more like a Cockatrice than a Dragon.

    Then they have it missed by a mile.
    No it doesn't, the Cockatrice has thick head and neck feathers, along with a thicker, shorter neck. No horns and no ear flappy things.

    image
    image
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,580
    Abmong said:

    Abmong said:

    Abmong said:

    Yrellian said:

    Just want to say it here as well. Coatls are supposed to have a dragon’s head, not snake’s.

    And dragon’s head is as vague a term as it gets, because there are some dragons with beak like faces:

    While those dragons have curved snouts, I don't think those resemble a beak as much as the Coatl's face-thingie does.

    And the fact that it's a completely different color from its head (same as its... ears? fins?) draws attention to and emphasizes those features so much more.

    Whilst the dragons' mouths on the pictures above are the same, or close enough color to the rest of its head and body, to keep the color scheme coherent.
    On some official showcase models, the curved tips are actually painted a different colour, giving the snouts quite a beaky appearance.

    image
    image
    image
    Those aren't bird beaks, though. And some of them have the same colour as their heads, for example both depictions of Minaithnir:


    Abmong said:



    But that's different. As you have rightly said, it's the tip that's a different color.
    So just the short curved section of the creature's whole mouth.

    In the case of this Coatl, it's the whole mouth, that's been transformed to a beak instead.

    Plus, although this might be just my subjective outlook on colors interaction, the black-red and white-blue pairings are in a much closer relationship than a blue-yellow combo.

    Although who knows, if it was just the tip of the mouth painted yellow and the Coatl's mouth was actually dragon like and blue, it might irk me a lot less.

    True, dragons don't have actual beaks, but a lot of birds actually have black beaks.
    Anyway, maybe CA/GW gave it a full beak precisely because they wanted to make it look less like a dragon.

    I don't think a curved snout with contrast colour highlight would satisfy most the snake/beakless reptilian head crowd.
    According to CA, it is supposed to be a Dragon head:


    The long, feathered wings of the Coatl spread high above the field of battle, casting shadow over the forces of Chaos and raining magical fury down on their ranks. With the head of a Dragon and a scaled, serpentine body, the Coatl forms an intimidating silhouette before the sun. Blocking the rays of light above its own forces, the Lizardmen army in its shadow is obscured, shielded from the eyes of their enemies.
    It was as close to being beaks as possible without being beaks though
    and the Coatls head in game is as close as possible without being actually dragon's head.

    GW could've just wanting to update the design and not use an actual dragon's head but remain respectful and close enough to the description of dragon's head.
    No. The Coatl's head looks a lot more like a Cockatrice than a Dragon.

    Then they have it missed by a mile.
    No it doesn't, the Cockatrice has thick head and neck feathers, along with a thicker, shorter neck. No horns and no ear flappy things.

    image
    image
    Yes, yes it does. It still does look closer to a Cockatrice than a Dragon. It's a lizardbird Cockatrice, or some Tzeentchian spawn. But with dragon it has nothing to do.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,206
    Such a disappointment they didn't show us the concept art in the LM blog today. The Coatl is literally the single unit out of the entire DLC they did not show the concept art of, and its the one specifc unit a lot of people have been complaining about.
    I dont know, i dont think it's a coincidence. Maybe in the concept art they had different and vastly better head options closer to snakes and/or dragons, that they did not choose, and they feared the backlash.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,580

    Such a disappointment they didn't show us the concept art in the LM blog today. The Coatl is literally the single unit out of the entire DLC they did not show the concept art of, and its the one specifc unit a lot of people have been complaining about.
    I dont know, i dont think it's a coincidence. Maybe in the concept art they had different and vastly better head options closer to snakes and/or dragons, that they did not choose, and they feared the backlash.

    I think it's the most likely explanation. Alternatively what @ITA_Vae_Victis said in another thread:

    CA completely winged the Coatl, and they know it. It's highly likely they reused skeleton & animations from an upcoming WH3 Cathay unit (possibly still unfinished, which means why they are especially wonky and brokenish), and the head is so out of place and contrary to every prior description or depiction of Warhammer Coatls that it has to be a repurposed asset for something else (like a Cockatrice) that is either coming at a later date or they started working on at some point but then abandoned.

    The fact it didn't get an "Introducing" video (which I think is an absolute first for a big monster in a DLC), and now they don't even have a single piece of concept art to show for it, definitely doesn't help dispelling the feeling that CA never got around to design it as it is, but they simply cobbled it together with whatever parts they had lying around.
  • endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 852
    How anyone can argue that it shouldn't be a snakehead I cannot fathom. The hydra head is right there.

    Does anyone actually prefer the bird-head or are there only people who argue against "complaining" about it?
  • SaandroSaandro Registered Users Posts: 73
    endikux said:

    How anyone can argue that it shouldn't be a snakehead I cannot fathom. The hydra head is right there.

    Does anyone actually prefer the bird-head or are there only people who argue against "complaining" about it?

    People saying they like it would like it either way.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,758
    Check the concept art of Coatl in latest blog.
  • twohundredandonetwohundredandone Registered Users Posts: 66
    jamreal18 said:

    Check the concept art of Coatl in latest blog.

    This one? https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-2-silence-and-fury-lizardmen-roster/

    I don't see any concept art, but I do see "With the head of a Dragon and a scaled, serpentine body, the Coatl forms an intimidating silhouette before the sun." Even CA knows this should be a dragon head, instead we have this beak, off face fins, and a chest lump.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,758

    jamreal18 said:

    Check the concept art of Coatl in latest blog.

    This one? https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-2-silence-and-fury-lizardmen-roster/.
    Isn't it funny? No concept art...

    Look at the beak.
    Look at the breast.
    Look at ornaments.
    Look at animation.

    That is Coatl.
  • HemlockCupHemlockCup Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 16
    Here is a better photo of the full GW conversion fyi.

    I think the CA model is obviously a kind of mish mash of the various different illustrations and miniatures, having the coloration, twin tails and fangs of the snake-like illustration and 2nd edition model, and then the overall shape and body plan from the converted mini, including it’s dragon head. I think the CA one looks a little goofy too, but you can see how the coloration could kind of be interpreted as a toothed beak.




  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Registered Users Posts: 1,103
    pls change em
    Check out the Community Bug Fix Mod on the Steam Workshop.
  • obippoobippo Member Registered Users Posts: 2,676
    Up
    Always be aware when a Content Refusing Troll Brigade (CRTB) representative is near. Contact your local Witch Hunter for further info.


  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Registered Users Posts: 774
    Its not getting changed

    and it'll be here tomorrow

    The hour of the beak is nigh
  • twohundredandonetwohundredandone Registered Users Posts: 66
    MandaloreGaming's review video points out all the issues with the Coatl model!
    The beak will be here for now but I have hope for change. This other post has potential; the new coatl cave drawing doesn't seem to show a beak (or at least a better one).
  • Cryptic_FreezeCryptic_Freeze Registered Users Posts: 438
    Lord Mandalore has raised the beacon
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,292
    QuiAuitL said:

    The head definitely needs to be changed, a Coatl with a beak looks flawed. I see that many people do not even understand what a dragon's head should look like...the dragon has no beak. CA do not know how to make the heads of dragons and snakes are visible.

    it's not a dragon and it isn't even a lizardman. It's an ancestral creature related to the Old Ones. We don't really know how it *should* look like, we just have preferences.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,580

    MandaloreGaming's review video points out all the issues with the Coatl model!
    The beak will be here for now but I have hope for change. This other post has potential; the new coatl cave drawing doesn't seem to show a beak (or at least a better one).

    Just a small correction, the cave drawing is meant to represent Dracothion, not the Coatl.

    But yes, it's good, the more attention the Coatl gets, the greater the chances of it receiving visual update.
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