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Why nerf Ancient Salamander Again?

24

Comments

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2021
    Wanna' make Ancient Salamander desirable in campaign?

    Remove any and all incentives to doomstack. As long as you are encouraged to optimize every slot in your army, mid-tier units will simply not see any play.
  • sirItansirItan Registered Users Posts: 367

    sirItan said:

    Lol, what is there to thank for? At launch Ancient Sally was a hybrid monster, not the best in melee, but really fast and with very poerful ranged attack that was primarily great against blobs. It could have been used for both ranged support and even melee suport when needed(thought due to fairly low hp that used to be risky). After the whining of MP community it go nerfed to the ground - 1/3 of its hp gone, ranged capabilities severely weakened. From a hybrid monster it changed into highly mobile ranged monster, but since its range was nerfed and its survivability worse too it is easy to just lose it for little to no gain.

    So the MP community with its 'so good balance suggestions' changed a unique in LZM roster hybrid monster unit into a ranged meh monster. Mind you now CA is basically admitting to mistake of overnerfing it - if you look at this change as MP only this is a huuuge buff.

    Mind you these nerfs in this patch have no meaning basically - from not taking this unit ever it will change to not taking this unit ever. Still pandering to MP community in such cases is very much awful, the balances for MP and SP should be separate.

    Lets be clear about something, we didn't change ****. We don't work for CA and they sure as hell don't ask our opinion when balancing units. We noted that the Ancient Salamander was broken at launch because it was. There was no point in bringing a different monster the ancient Salamander was more important. We didn't tell CA how to nerf it nor were suggestions solicited from us. We made the correct observation that a DLC unit was overtuned. If you have an issue with how it was nerfed or think it was overnerfed take it up with CA.

    Same thing with Deck Droppers at launch with Vampire Coast. If it wasn't for the MP community every DLC would have added a subsequently broken unit to the point that power creep became more ridiculous than it already is. So I don't want to hear it. As far as I'm concerned when you're demanding the game be balanced for SP you're demanding it be balanced like this



    oh man what good game design. So balanced. Yeah I'm glade CA listens to MP instead of you. And I say that not as MP fan but as a SP fan.
    it got nerfed only due to MP whining ****. Now CA is buffing it for MP with 200 gold decrease, which is one of the biggest buffs in this game so far. Basically due to your **** sense of entitlement, where you see MP as some kind of superior mode and its players as superior gamers CA nerfed the unit to the unplayability.

    Wanna' make Ancient Salamander desirable in campaign?

    Remove any and all incentives to doomstack. As long as you are encouraged to optimize every slot in your army, mid-tier units will simply not see any play.

    While CA should do what you are saying, some units are just not worth bringing - ancient sally is the perfect example of it.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,907

    Wanna' make Ancient Salamander desirable in campaign?

    Remove any and all incentives to doomstack. As long as you are encouraged to optimize every slot in your army, mid-tier units will simply not see any play.

    thats another thing people dont appreciate the ancient salamander IS in fact a mid tier unit. Its not supposed to be the ender of worlds it was at launch that had it signifigantly better than Carnosaurs and other late game units.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,124

    sirItan said:

    Lol, what is there to thank for? At launch Ancient Sally was a hybrid monster, not the best in melee, but really fast and with very poerful ranged attack that was primarily great against blobs. It could have been used for both ranged support and even melee suport when needed(thought due to fairly low hp that used to be risky). After the whining of MP community it go nerfed to the ground - 1/3 of its hp gone, ranged capabilities severely weakened. From a hybrid monster it changed into highly mobile ranged monster, but since its range was nerfed and its survivability worse too it is easy to just lose it for little to no gain.

    So the MP community with its 'so good balance suggestions' changed a unique in LZM roster hybrid monster unit into a ranged meh monster. Mind you now CA is basically admitting to mistake of overnerfing it - if you look at this change as MP only this is a huuuge buff.

    Mind you these nerfs in this patch have no meaning basically - from not taking this unit ever it will change to not taking this unit ever. Still pandering to MP community in such cases is very much awful, the balances for MP and SP should be separate.

    Lets be clear about something, we didn't change ****. We don't work for CA and they sure as hell don't ask our opinion when balancing units. We noted that the Ancient Salamander was broken at launch because it was. There was no point in bringing a different monster the ancient Salamander was more important. We didn't tell CA how to nerf it nor were suggestions solicited from us. We made the correct observation that a DLC unit was overtuned. If you have an issue with how it was nerfed or think it was overnerfed take it up with CA.

    Same thing with Deck Droppers at launch with Vampire Coast. If it wasn't for the MP community every DLC would have added a subsequently broken unit to the point that power creep became more ridiculous than it already is. So I don't want to hear it. As far as I'm concerned when you're demanding the game be balanced for SP you're demanding it be balanced like this



    oh man what good game design. So balanced. Yeah I'm glade CA listens to MP instead of you. And I say that not as MP fan but as a SP fan.
    Honestly that's less Broken and more done by Design for a DLC to come out with strong stuff which later on they'll tune down. It's just a standard with new stuff that I have seen.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • rinsuirinsui Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 84
    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,907

    sirItan said:

    Lol, what is there to thank for? At launch Ancient Sally was a hybrid monster, not the best in melee, but really fast and with very poerful ranged attack that was primarily great against blobs. It could have been used for both ranged support and even melee suport when needed(thought due to fairly low hp that used to be risky). After the whining of MP community it go nerfed to the ground - 1/3 of its hp gone, ranged capabilities severely weakened. From a hybrid monster it changed into highly mobile ranged monster, but since its range was nerfed and its survivability worse too it is easy to just lose it for little to no gain.

    So the MP community with its 'so good balance suggestions' changed a unique in LZM roster hybrid monster unit into a ranged meh monster. Mind you now CA is basically admitting to mistake of overnerfing it - if you look at this change as MP only this is a huuuge buff.

    Mind you these nerfs in this patch have no meaning basically - from not taking this unit ever it will change to not taking this unit ever. Still pandering to MP community in such cases is very much awful, the balances for MP and SP should be separate.

    Lets be clear about something, we didn't change ****. We don't work for CA and they sure as hell don't ask our opinion when balancing units. We noted that the Ancient Salamander was broken at launch because it was. There was no point in bringing a different monster the ancient Salamander was more important. We didn't tell CA how to nerf it nor were suggestions solicited from us. We made the correct observation that a DLC unit was overtuned. If you have an issue with how it was nerfed or think it was overnerfed take it up with CA.

    Same thing with Deck Droppers at launch with Vampire Coast. If it wasn't for the MP community every DLC would have added a subsequently broken unit to the point that power creep became more ridiculous than it already is. So I don't want to hear it. As far as I'm concerned when you're demanding the game be balanced for SP you're demanding it be balanced like this



    oh man what good game design. So balanced. Yeah I'm glade CA listens to MP instead of you. And I say that not as MP fan but as a SP fan.
    Honestly that's less Broken and more done by Design for a DLC to come out with strong stuff which later on they'll tune down. It's just a standard with new stuff that I have seen.
    Then nerfs for the Ancient Sally were coming either way and MP community is just being used as a scapegoat.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,907
    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    Its not as if LM even have a broken economy like the elves.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,197
    Pede said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Looks like a buff to it generally. More ammo and less cost makes it more likely to show up in multiplayer
    We are not talking about the 14 people who play multiplayer...
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,197
    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
  • rinsuirinsui Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 84
    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    You *do* realize that upkeep costs are directly related to the initial recruitment cost, right? (ʘᴗʘ✿)
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,197
    rinsui said:

    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    You *do* realize that upkeep costs are directly related to the initial recruitment cost, right? (ʘᴗʘ✿)
    Ok 1 time payment of 200 gold and 50 upkeep, why you could almost afford half of a skink withat that savings!
  • rinsuirinsui Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 84
    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    If I remember the formulas for hit chances correctly, the chance to hit of a "new" AS fighting an "old" AS have decreased from 42% to 40% post-patch while the chances to be hit in return have increased from 42% to 45%.

    That's roughly a 10% overall decrease in combat efficiency after the 15 second charge bonus is factored in.

    This 10% decrease is easily compensated by a roughly 18% decrease in recruitment and (directly proportional) upkeep cost.

    As a bonus you get 10% more ammo and LD.

    ...

    Could you specify again what exactly you are complaining about? Because for me that pretty much looks like a dizeable net buff. In both MP and SP, mind you. Unless you play with a mod that reduces upkeep costs or something.
  • ForumaccountkroqgarForumaccountkroqgar Registered Users Posts: 869

    Its a massive buff in MP and an overall nerf in SP since cost dont mean anything after few turns, but 2 ammo will help in SP also.

    I dislike most of your suggestions, but at least you're honest in how a buff in MP can be a nerf in SP.

    They may as well delete this unit from SP, normal salamanders are much better and a tier lower/cheaper.
    Justice for the scalies!

    Basic fixes for blessed spawnings and geomantic web:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293369/lizardmen-rework-suggestions/p1?new=1
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 5,831
    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?
    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 5,062
    It's not a nerf. The unit lost some melee capability but gained a bit of ammo and shaved off a substantial amount of its cost. The reason you bring an Ancient Salamander, missile attacks, it can now do with a few extra shots to boot without paying for melee stats it won't ever use effectively. Keep in mind the difference in melee stats won't make or break the unit in melee, it was never good in melee. Any serious contender coming round the flanks would squash it before the change. That hasn't changed. At least this way it takes less time for it to make its cost back up before it itself is shot to death or something threatening manages to catch it. I still don't think anyone will take it over a Solar Engine, but it's a step towards at least being useable now.
  • ForumaccountkroqgarForumaccountkroqgar Registered Users Posts: 869

    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?


    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
    Lmao, you keep making up this strawman where everyone who doesn't play only MP is a doomstacker running around with treemen/stegadon spams. If we all did that like Legend, why would we care about the balance of units that will always be worse than doomstack units?

    When's the last time you've actually played the campaign?

    You can nerf no problem, I'm in favour of the ancient sally losing it's ridiculous speed. But it's a subpar artillery unit with melee fragility, it's own lower tier version is better at any possible job and it has gotten cheaper too.
    Justice for the scalies!

    Basic fixes for blessed spawnings and geomantic web:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293369/lizardmen-rework-suggestions/p1?new=1
  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 1,314

    Pede said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Looks like a buff to it generally. More ammo and less cost makes it more likely to show up in multiplayer
    I don't understand this arguement, all every stat but ammo was nerfed, a unit that has already been nerfed to hell in another patch, for what? 'more likely to show up in mp'. Why does that matter? Total war is a single player game for the overwhelming majority of the fanbase, less than 20% of players have the 'win 10 mp battles' achievement, why is a single player game being balanced for multiplayer that so few play? The arrogance of mp players to whinge about units be too strong and having to rebalance units in a way that affects everyone.

    Your arguement is also ridiculous, 'oh is cheaper so it will appear in mp more' and?? its states were nerfed so less people will want to take it in single player cause it sucks. which is the majority of the player base is.
    The Ancient Salamander should be buffed and to hell with multiplayer, if you cant handle some units/spells/combo being imba find another game to play, like Shogun 2 a very balanced game since its clone armies every game
    In single player this shifts the ancient salamander into a missile monster playstyle more clearly and 2 ammo is a large boost to ranged damage in the case of artillery. Not to mention it's still a terror causing monster at the end of the day. It's ability to smash infantry is largely the same, though it'll be worse at monster dueling. Still a buff, even without considering multiplayer.
  • EarthDragonEarthDragon Registered Users Posts: 1,120
    amanes said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Thank you!

    I personally don’t consider anything that gets a cost adjustment a “nerf”, but a re-balancing.

    They just need to find better ways to make cost, upkeep, and availability more impactful in campaign.
    Couldn't they buff ammunition and lower cost without lowering it's defence? To me it's still looks like a nerf, those 2 extra shots wont help you when enemy cavalry charges at you but melee stats would. It isn't like it's melee capabilities made it so hard to be dealt with.
    Because it’s giving you more cash to spread around to have something else assist and protect it, to include a new hidden melee unit that can “ambush” that cavalry. Since it’s a SEM,

    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?


    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
    I have to agree that this is actually just highlighting the bigger issues of single player economics, army composition, and unit caps.

    The problem is the “muh doomstacks” players screech incessantly anytime you talk about major SP balance issues and the paths to address them
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,124
    edited July 2021

    amanes said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Thank you!

    I personally don’t consider anything that gets a cost adjustment a “nerf”, but a re-balancing.

    They just need to find better ways to make cost, upkeep, and availability more impactful in campaign.
    Couldn't they buff ammunition and lower cost without lowering it's defence? To me it's still looks like a nerf, those 2 extra shots wont help you when enemy cavalry charges at you but melee stats would. It isn't like it's melee capabilities made it so hard to be dealt with.
    Because it’s giving you more cash to spread around to have something else assist and protect it, to include a new hidden melee unit that can “ambush” that cavalry. Since it’s a SEM,

    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?


    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
    I have to agree that this is actually just highlighting the bigger issues of single player economics, army composition, and unit caps.

    The problem is the “muh doomstacks” players screech incessantly anytime you talk about major SP balance issues and the paths to address them
    Don't forget the "If you don't like it don't use it" which details any sp balance discussion.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?


    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
    Lmao, you keep making up this strawman where everyone who doesn't play only MP is a doomstacker running around with treemen/stegadon spams. If we all did that like Legend, why would we care about the balance of units that will always be worse than doomstack units?

    When's the last time you've actually played the campaign?

    You can nerf no problem, I'm in favour of the ancient sally losing it's ridiculous speed. But it's a subpar artillery unit with melee fragility, it's own lower tier version is better at any possible job and it has gotten cheaper too.
    When's the last time you played with base stat units in SP and actually had to master any strategy beyond "make AI blob, nuke blob"?
  • EarthDragonEarthDragon Registered Users Posts: 1,120

    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?


    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
    Lmao, you keep making up this strawman where everyone who doesn't play only MP is a doomstacker running around with treemen/stegadon spams. If we all did that like Legend, why would we care about the balance of units that will always be worse than doomstack units?

    When's the last time you've actually played the campaign?

    You can nerf no problem, I'm in favour of the ancient sally losing it's ridiculous speed. But it's a subpar artillery unit with melee fragility, it's own lower tier version is better at any possible job and it has gotten cheaper too.
    You’re presenting what’s closer to a straw man.

    The initial post specified a type a player/poster.

    YOU applied that label to “everyone” then proceeded to say “everyone isn’t that way”


  • NazjaxNazjax Registered Users Posts: 1,416
    Itharus said:

    Pede said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Looks like a buff to it generally. More ammo and less cost makes it more likely to show up in multiplayer
    And once again... MP messes up SP stuff. So tired of this. Why don't they just balance it separately with COSTS ONLY? It would be the easiest thing in the world. They don't need to do a half-assed attempt at eSports nonsense. They aren't blizzard, and I thank God for that. though they sure are trying lately >.<</p>
    Or you just learn to mod and make your own balance ? MP players can't do that, solo players can do that.

    I mean, I can agree sometime they are doing wrong choices, but blaming MP community and players is... nonsence.
  • ForumaccountkroqgarForumaccountkroqgar Registered Users Posts: 869
    Nazjax said:

    Itharus said:

    Pede said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Looks like a buff to it generally. More ammo and less cost makes it more likely to show up in multiplayer
    And once again... MP messes up SP stuff. So tired of this. Why don't they just balance it separately with COSTS ONLY? It would be the easiest thing in the world. They don't need to do a half-assed attempt at eSports nonsense. They aren't blizzard, and I thank God for that. though they sure are trying lately >.<</p>
    Or you just learn to mod and make your own balance ? MP players can't do that, solo players can do that.

    I mean, I can agree sometime they are doing wrong choices, but blaming MP community and players is... nonsence.
    I think MP players can create their own mods as much as campaign players. Most MP matches don't happen through CA's system but through discords, there's nothing stopping a discord served from asking all players to use X mod before loading multiplayer right?

    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?


    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
    Lmao, you keep making up this strawman where everyone who doesn't play only MP is a doomstacker running around with treemen/stegadon spams. If we all did that like Legend, why would we care about the balance of units that will always be worse than doomstack units?

    When's the last time you've actually played the campaign?

    You can nerf no problem, I'm in favour of the ancient sally losing it's ridiculous speed. But it's a subpar artillery unit with melee fragility, it's own lower tier version is better at any possible job and it has gotten cheaper too.
    You’re presenting what’s closer to a straw man.

    The initial post specified a type a player/poster.

    YOU applied that label to “everyone” then proceeded to say “everyone isn’t that way”


    No, he keeps repeatedly saying that campaign shouldn't be balanced because all campaign players are doomstackers. I never use a doomstack and use mods that make it even impossible to do it, so hearing "campaign is unbalanced, CA shouldn't bother with it" every time is tiring.
    Justice for the scalies!

    Basic fixes for blessed spawnings and geomantic web:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293369/lizardmen-rework-suggestions/p1?new=1
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2021


    I think MP players can create their own mods as much as campaign players. Most MP matches don't happen through CA's system but through discords, there's nothing stopping a discord served from asking all players to use X mod before loading multiplayer right?

    And why should MPlayers have to subject themselves to such a ridiculous burden? Also, who should actually create that mod? You think MPlayers are actually all unified in how game balance should be either?`

    See, SPlayers don't need to reach any consensus on mods, so you can put in whatever you want, so SPLayers actually are more justified in making use of mods than MPLayers.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 8,242

    Same thing with Deck Droppers at launch with Vampire Coast. If it wasn't for the MP community every DLC would have added a subsequently broken unit to the point that power creep became more ridiculous than it already is. So I don't want to hear it. As far as I'm concerned when you're demanding the game be balanced for SP you're demanding it be balanced like this.

    Lets be honest... every subsequent DLC has been increasingly broken, but on the Campaign side of things. I much prefer that we get fun busted campaigns with busted campaign mechanics than a few units that over perform.

    And yes CA has over nerfed several things, much to the chagrin of the MP community. We don't like it when factions have lemon units.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Lemons are the result of roster bloat. If you keep adding units to rosters, you will eventually end up with redundancies that have a hard time finding any sort of niche.

    You could actually balance this easier in campaign because you could design factions that make better or worse use of certain units.
  • ujopujop Registered Users Posts: 144
    They buffed the ranged capabilities in a game where range is far more efficient than melee.
    How is this a nerf please?
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,488

    Itharus said:

    Pede said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Looks like a buff to it generally. More ammo and less cost makes it more likely to show up in multiplayer
    And once again... MP messes up SP stuff. So tired of this. Why don't they just balance it separately with COSTS ONLY? It would be the easiest thing in the world. They don't need to do a half-assed attempt at eSports nonsense. They aren't blizzard, and I thank God for that. though they sure are trying lately >.<</p>
    Man, you're so salty. Frankly balancing for MP has made SP a better experience too, you should be thanking the MP community if anything.
    That'll be the ****ing day...
  • NazjaxNazjax Registered Users Posts: 1,416

    Nazjax said:

    Itharus said:

    Pede said:

    Did they? Please post context



    Ancient Salamander

    Charge Bonus 40 to 30
    Melee Attack 34 to 32
    Melee Defence 32 to 29
    Leadership 60 to 65
    Ammunition 18 to 20
    Cost 1250 to 1050

    Looks like a buff to it generally. More ammo and less cost makes it more likely to show up in multiplayer
    And once again... MP messes up SP stuff. So tired of this. Why don't they just balance it separately with COSTS ONLY? It would be the easiest thing in the world. They don't need to do a half-assed attempt at eSports nonsense. They aren't blizzard, and I thank God for that. though they sure are trying lately >.<</p>
    Or you just learn to mod and make your own balance ? MP players can't do that, solo players can do that.

    I mean, I can agree sometime they are doing wrong choices, but blaming MP community and players is... nonsence.
    I think MP players can create their own mods as much as campaign players. Most MP matches don't happen through CA's system but through discords, there's nothing stopping a discord served from asking all players to use X mod before loading multiplayer right?

    Are the "never nerf always buff" SP-only who only knows how to Doomstack crying over what's essentially a massive buff to the Ancient Salamander?


    CnConrad said:

    rinsui said:

    Why exactly is a significant cost reduction irrelevant for SP? What difficulty are you playing on?

    If a 1 time payment of 200 gold is a make or break aspect of your campaign I can't even imagine what mode you are playing...
    Then start whining about how screwed up SP campaign economy is lol


    Start asking for Hard Unit Caps and a hard nerf to global player economy so that such a massive price reduction actually means something.


    Maybe when something as significant as a 200 price reduction is considered "nothing" in SP Campaign, that's possibly a problem with the economy? Ever thought about that?
    Lmao, you keep making up this strawman where everyone who doesn't play only MP is a doomstacker running around with treemen/stegadon spams. If we all did that like Legend, why would we care about the balance of units that will always be worse than doomstack units?

    When's the last time you've actually played the campaign?

    You can nerf no problem, I'm in favour of the ancient sally losing it's ridiculous speed. But it's a subpar artillery unit with melee fragility, it's own lower tier version is better at any possible job and it has gotten cheaper too.
    You’re presenting what’s closer to a straw man.

    The initial post specified a type a player/poster.

    YOU applied that label to “everyone” then proceeded to say “everyone isn’t that way”


    No, he keeps repeatedly saying that campaign shouldn't be balanced because all campaign players are doomstackers. I never use a doomstack and use mods that make it even impossible to do it, so hearing "campaign is unbalanced, CA shouldn't bother with it" every time is tiring.
    So what about quick match ? The most ''played'' MP type of battles... What about opened lobby ?

    The discord beetwin friends is... more rare than you think and even if we follow that you take the responsability to mod for hundred of people and if you fail balance it's annoying, while if you are alone in your campaign you can have broken units and it's not a problem.

    Balancing is pretty hard, and having his own balance is way easier than trying to balance for a group.

    And what about tournaments ?

    That could be possible if a real team was doing that for MP battles and everyone trust them, but since you need to share the mod to everyone it's not that easy. I mean less easy than people modding their own game.
  • RoksoRokso Registered Users Posts: 43
    Ancient Sally could be could in SP if:
    1 - it had proper techs. Right now its ONLY tech is -10% upkeep at the very end of the beasts row.
    (This is actually a problem with LZM monsters in general having little to no techs and are only good because their base stats are so good)

    2- recruit duration reduced to 2 turns. There's no reason for a mid-tier unit to have a 3 turn recruit. 3 turn recruitment is for the BIG super monsters like dragons, aranarok spiders, shaggoths. (They may have done this and we don't know, many things get left out of the patch notes)

    3 - proper buffs in the lord red skills. Its only meaningful buff is +12% missile damage. Good sure, but if the red line also gave ammo/reload speed to the Ancient Salamander that would be great.

    I don't know why CA doesn't fully utilize it, but MP/SP split balancing does already exist through skills/techs and MP costs. If a unit is going to be nerfed so much because of perceived MP balancing issue; CA should then compensate through the systems available in SP. If the Sally had proper skill/techs it wouldn't matter it lost a little melee stats that it doesn't use anyway. But CA only touches base stats in their patches.

    Bit of a different topic; but overall some units just suck in SP; just because they are not properly buffed through lord skills/techs. All of the great ranged type units get the correct buffs in damage, ammo, reload, range. None of which the Ancient Sally gets. All the great melee units get MA/MD/resists/WS. When CA puts a unit like the Ancient Sally on the same skill lines that buffs stegs it does not get the stats it needs to be competitive in the campaign environment.

    It doesn't matter if CA nerfs/buffs the Ancient Sally for MP because they already suck in SP. The fault isn't on the MP community, it's on CA for not using what tools they have correctly for good SP and MP balance.
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