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A total Coatl rework

MattockMattock Registered Users Posts: 662
edited July 13 in General Discussion
I know there's alot of threads on the coatl already, some of which use pretty hyperbolic language that it's hard to agree with them, but I think the Coatl needs a large rework at some point, maybe when lizardmen get there update in game 3.

Gameplay wise it should have a grounded animation. Right now it floats above ground as its stuck motionless and turns on it's axis with no animation whilst infantry stab at thin air below it. As others have pointed out it's ugly but also makes it hard to see what it's doing when zoomed out, if it's flying or on the ground. Itd be sad to lose the animations it uses currently, qs they're really impressive, but it'd be better if it slithered like the tomb serpent animation. Give it a slithering ground animation, and then use the existing animations as a "leaping" attack animation like what the jabaslythe uses.


The next bit is the look of it. So far this series 99% of the unit models have been unanimously praised, i can only this of stone trolls and bear sleds as being dissapointung in design, but theres alot of people, including content creators like loremaster of Sotek and Mandaloregaming, who have big issues with this model. Its not that the unit looks bad, but it just isn't right, its hard ti distinguish it's faction and if you asked a fan of wathammer what it is I'm not sure they'd say a Coatl except fir it's twin tail. Lizardmen fans have been wanting this unit for a while and had a clear idea of what they wanted, a snake with wings and some feathered plumage and lizardmen ornamention.

So please CA, think about going back and looking at this unit again, and whilst your at it maybe stone trolls too. I'm not expecting it immediately but please consider updating it.
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Comments

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,021
    I agree. Its animations should be adjusted. And if CA don't want to change its head, then they should at least put the Lizardmen-themed ornaments on it to make it look like a LM unit at least in this aspect. Feathers on its back too would be a nice addition, because now the wings look detached, almost glued-like.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,808
    If Lizardmen "fans" really had a clear vision of what they wanted, then they know they wanted this model as it is, since that is indeed how the Coatl looked like in Warhammer.....
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,837

    If Lizardmen "fans" really had a clear vision of what they wanted, then they know they wanted this model as it is, since that is indeed how the Coatl looked like in Warhammer.....

    We literally have artwork and actual models for the Coatl. It did not look like that. If you are referring to the fan made conversion, it still does not look like that.
  • QuiAuitLQuiAuitL Registered Users Posts: 22

    If Lizardmen "fans" really had a clear vision of what they wanted, then they know they wanted this model as it is, since that is indeed how the Coatl looked like in Warhammer.....

    You're talking nonsense.
  • MattockMattock Registered Users Posts: 662

    If Lizardmen "fans" really had a clear vision of what they wanted, then they know they wanted this model as it is, since that is indeed how the Coatl looked like in Warhammer.....

    That logic makes no sense. I'm sure that most lizatdmen fans were expecting the unit to based on the official artwork, or the mythological counterpart, rather than on the older fan made model with a chaos dragon head abd body with feathered wings.

    There's alot of threads on that topic already but really that argument just doesn't make sense.
  • TheRogueBadgerTheRogueBadger Registered Users Posts: 48
    This is the first time to me something made by ca feels cheap and almost like it could be a mod. The model doesn’t necessarily look bad it just looks awkward and a mish mash of assets as if a modder made it. The beak and the head just looks dumb. I hate the lack of ornaments it makes it hard to believe it belongs to the right roster and the animations are just janky and ugly. I didn’t mind the unit that much until I saw the art and realised what we could have actually got instead.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,121
    the model isn't that terrible, but the animations should really be fixed.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,101
    edited July 13
    The animations of the coatl are lackluster I agree. Much more could have been done there. E.g. a spinning attack against infantry or a strong wing clap or else. And its overall movements could be more graceful.

    However I like its battlefield role as a magical suport flyer.
    And I regard to the overvall design it is also fine. Amphiteres (or however the mythological templare is called) was always a mixture of SNAKE & BIRD after all. That was its entire thing, with the bird part being of critical importance. For example Quetzalcoatl, the god most often depicted as this creature, is named after the quetzal BIRD not after a snake.
    And its portrayl varies a lot accross cultures and centuries, as with every other mythical beast. Look at how many dragon variants exist after all. Coatls were no exception. Sometimes they had no wings just feathers, and yes sometimes their head was more birdlike as well.

    So if CA chose the model with a birds head from white dwarf as its main source and gave it a birds peak, its fine with both the source material from WFB and the original source.
    Though I would say its almost closer to a dragons head than a bird head. In TW2 HE dragons also have horns, neck fins and a smaller peak as well.

    Unit wise it is still the weak point for the lizardmen. But mostly due to its limited animations, not its general design or battlefield role.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 3,867
    I'm willing to give it a chance. But from what I've seen I can't help but thing that, yeah, it needed a bit more time in the oven.

    Beak doesn't bother as much as the animations but if given the choice I'd also probably have gone with a traditional depiction of a coatl with the snake head.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • ujopujop Registered Users Posts: 144
    Model s fine. The animations were bad. If they didn't fix those for the release, they definitely should do it afterwards.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Registered Users Posts: 1,489
    It has the HE dragon head, if it doesnt get a unique head, give it the Hydra head. And every or most other LM monster has gold trinkets on it, why not the coatl?
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 573

    This is the first time to me something made by ca feels cheap and almost like it could be a mod. The model doesn’t necessarily look bad it just looks awkward and a mish mash of assets as if a modder made it. The beak and the head just looks dumb. I hate the lack of ornaments it makes it hard to believe it belongs to the right roster and the animations are just janky and ugly. I didn’t mind the unit that much until I saw the art and realised what we could have actually got instead.


    You’re right, it totally looks like a bad modded unit lol. I’m guessing they ported a lot of the design from a Cathay dragon, so it might get fixed when they add those in.

    Full disclosure, I don’t care that much am fine if they don’t make any changes. Model quality is one of the few truly polished aspects of this game. One stupid awkward looking unit doesn’t phase me too much.

    That being said, I think the animation where it just hovers there while turning is brutal and should probably be fixed. Though I’d rather see nakais vortex campaign fixed before wh2 is retired.
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 573
    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    It has the HE dragon head, if it doesnt get a unique head, give it the Hydra head. And every or most other LM monster has gold trinkets on it, why not the coatl?

    I’m guessing it was hastily ported over from a Cathay dragon design, which is why it’s lacking the jewelry and looks lrushed
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,021
    sykall said:

    The animations of the coatl are lackluster I agree. Much more could have been done there. E.g. a spinning attack against infantry or a strong wing clap or else. And its overall movements could be more graceful.

    However I like its battlefield role as a magical suport flyer.
    And I regard to the overvall design it is also fine. Amphiteres (or however the mythological templare is called) was always a mixture of SNAKE & BIRD after all. That was its entire thing, with the bird part being of critical importance. For example Quetzalcoatl, the god most often depicted as this creature, is named after the quetzal BIRD not after a snake.
    And its portrayl varies a lot accross cultures and centuries, as with every other mythical beast. Look at how many dragon variants exist after all. Coatls were no exception. Sometimes they had no wings just feathers, and yes sometimes their head was more birdlike as well.

    So if CA chose the model with a birds head from white dwarf as its main source and gave it a birds peak, its fine with both the source material from WFB and the original source.
    Though I would say its almost closer to a dragons head than a bird head. In TW2 HE dragons also have horns, neck fins and a smaller peak as well.

    Unit wise it is still the weak point for the lizardmen. But mostly due to its limited animations, not its general design or battlefield role.

    Personally, I have never seen historical depictions of Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan with bird-like head.

    There was no model with a bird's head. The infamous White Dwarf conversion has dragon's head.

    In the WH lore and art there are two variants present: snake-headed and dragon-headed. What we will get is neither of those, but some bird-headed serpent that could have easily lived in the Annulii Mountains or roam the skies above the Inevitable City. Also, TW2 HE dragons and TW dragons in general, have pointy snouts, not bird beaks.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,718
    edited July 13
    The model is so terrible and just screams low effort compared to the largely stellar work CA have done throughout the series.

    And the “model” it’s based on was from white dwarf, which in those days was largely designed to keep up interest in the hobby between major releases which were much farther apart in those days. The model is literally a DIY mashup from spare parts and the article was published roughly 4-6 years before the Coatl art ever appeared in a Lizardmen army book, where it looks totally different from the version except for the fact it’s winged .
    Post edited by Mr_Finley7 on
  • twohundredandonetwohundredandone Registered Users Posts: 66
    edited July 13
    A link to the MandaloreGaming video mentioned: Total War Warhammer 2: Silence & The Fury Review.


    "I don't harp too much on liberties taken from the tabletop model, but this one is weird. It doesn't evoke the image of a flying snake especially with the big beak on it."

    "It looks bad when big monsters get stuck but none look so bad as the coatl."

  • SaandroSaandro Registered Users Posts: 73
    Chora said:

    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    It has the HE dragon head, if it doesnt get a unique head, give it the Hydra head. And every or most other LM monster has gold trinkets on it, why not the coatl?

    I’m guessing it was hastily ported over from a Cathay dragon design, which is why it’s lacking the jewelry and looks lrushed
    No way the Cathay dragon will look close to this. I can't even imagine CA would release the flagship unit for the most hyped up faction like that. It will look way better for sure. Coatl is just some mish-mash of assets they had lying around coupled with wonky animations. It looks more like a Tzeentch bird than a winged serpent.
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 4,820
    What I don't understand is that CA said in the blog that they gave him a dragon head, which is in-line with the GW concept art and the conversion model. But, like, it's not a dragon head ! We have dragons in game, they don't have beaks !
    I believe in Slaanesh supremacy
  • MattockMattock Registered Users Posts: 662
    Maelas said:

    What I don't understand is that CA said in the blog that they gave him a dragon head, which is in-line with the GW concept art and the conversion model. But, like, it's not a dragon head ! We have dragons in game, they don't have beaks !

    I find it weird they didnt show concept art. I wonder whether this is one of those situations CA was hamstrung by GW.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,170
    Maelas said:

    What I don't understand is that CA said in the blog that they gave him a dragon head, which is in-line with the GW concept art and the conversion model. But, like, it's not a dragon head ! We have dragons in game, they don't have beaks !

    Them not showing the concept of the only unit in the entire DLC that has been under the critial spotlight is not a coincidence.
    Guaranteed that the art would have shown multiple head options they abandoned, properly dragon-like and/or snake-like, which they omitted, and they feared the backlash.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,021
    Saandro said:

    Chora said:

    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    It has the HE dragon head, if it doesnt get a unique head, give it the Hydra head. And every or most other LM monster has gold trinkets on it, why not the coatl?

    I’m guessing it was hastily ported over from a Cathay dragon design, which is why it’s lacking the jewelry and looks lrushed
    No way the Cathay dragon will look close to this. I can't even imagine CA would release the flagship unit for the most hyped up faction like that. It will look way better for sure. Coatl is just some mish-mash of assets they had lying around coupled with wonky animations. It looks more like a Tzeentch bird than a winged serpent.
    One can hope.
    Maelas said:

    What I don't understand is that CA said in the blog that they gave him a dragon head, which is in-line with the GW concept art and the conversion model. But, like, it's not a dragon head ! We have dragons in game, they don't have beaks !

    *Puts on Swordmaster hat* Maybe it refers to an unused head variant.
    Mattock said:

    Maelas said:

    What I don't understand is that CA said in the blog that they gave him a dragon head, which is in-line with the GW concept art and the conversion model. But, like, it's not a dragon head ! We have dragons in game, they don't have beaks !

    I find it weird they didnt show concept art. I wonder whether this is one of those situations CA was hamstrung by GW.
    CA posted GW's concept arts(KIslev) before, or at least concepts based on GW's concepts.

    Maelas said:

    What I don't understand is that CA said in the blog that they gave him a dragon head, which is in-line with the GW concept art and the conversion model. But, like, it's not a dragon head ! We have dragons in game, they don't have beaks !

    Them not showing the concept of the only unit in the entire DLC that has been under the critial spotlight is not a coincidence.
    Guaranteed that the art would have shown multiple head options they abandoned, properly dragon-like and/or snake-like, which they omitted, and they feared the backlash.
    It's possible considering Chameleon Stalkers concept art presents alternative head options:






  • DarthEnderXDarthEnderX Registered Users Posts: 648

    If Lizardmen "fans" really had a clear vision of what they wanted, then they know they wanted this model as it is, since that is indeed how the Coatl looked like in Warhammer.....

    It is?



    Looks pretty snake-headed with LM ornamentation to me.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 413
    edited July 14
    Xenos7777 said:

    the model isn't that terrible, but the animations should really be fixed.

    I still find it bad. If it was the 2004 concept, I'm sure none of this rioting would be happening right now. And CA would be able to turn their total attention to the Ghorgon.


  • Layn_333Layn_333 Registered Users Posts: 8
    Victuz said:

    Xenos7777 said:

    the model isn't that terrible, but the animations should really be fixed.

    I still find it bad. If it was the 2004 concept, I'm sure none of this rioting would be happening right now. And CA would be able to turn their total attention to the Ghorgon.
    From what I've gathered, that's basically it. They didn't stick to the design people expected, and the result ranges between disappointment to "I don't mind either way".

    Personally, I'm in the disappointed camp.
  • Prince_AlucardPrince_Alucard Registered Users Posts: 556
    edited July 14
    A lot of bizarre assumptions when it comes to the Coatl when the answer is probably as simple as they just went with a bizarre design choice. It's not even all too uncommon to see winged serpents with beaks from what I've seen.




    Like, it having a high dragon head? I don't think so, isn't quite long enough. In a literal sense it's certainly not the right head.

    I could buy it sharing Cathay stuff in terms of animation though. Though getting rid of the wing flapping and maybe some of the wing attack and you pretty much have yourself a celestial dragon.


    The stuff it does share with dragons comes from the conversion as some have pointed out. Even then ingame it doesn't really look like anything like the high elf dragons at all. In fact it was a chaos dragon which was used, but the chaos dragon ingame doesn't look anything like the one used for that conversion. Though it does have a bit of a beak at the end funnily enough. Closest thing I can think of is Ghoritch, where I mean, all we had for him was the conversion. Not like they needed an orc warboss model to pull from to make his arms.


    I still think they could've at least loosely based it off the one in the background picture, but from what I've seen, the most widespread one across the internet and the forums was definitely that conversion.



    With all of that said I really wanted to see the concept art for it more than anything else in the dlc. That is definitely a bummer for something so controversial. I thought the alternate cham stalkers looked pretty cool, I would've actually preferred those.


    I don't think it'll be too hard to mod in like a snake head or something on the current Coatl for people who really want it. I mean, the one on the eagle rig was pretty good for what it was, so now that there's actually something that's a much better basis should help.
  • Fingolfin_the-GoldenFingolfin_the-Golden Registered Users Posts: 2,058
    I think it’s fine as it is how Lizardmen lore describes it.
    Looks weird, but always would due to its weirdness in general.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 413
    edited July 14

    I think it’s fine as it is how Lizardmen lore describes it.
    Looks weird, but always would due to its weirdness in general.

    Then again, it ranges from "What the hell is this?!" to "Idk I think it's fine".

    Not from "Hm, this is a little strange" to "This is wonderful! Thank you CA, thank you for this!"
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,021

    A lot of bizarre assumptions when it comes to the Coatl when the answer is probably as simple as they just went with a bizarre design choice. It's not even all too uncommon to see winged serpents with beaks from what I've seen.




    Like, it having a high dragon head? I don't think so, isn't quite long enough. In a literal sense it's certainly not the right head.

    I could buy it sharing Cathay stuff in terms of animation though. Though getting rid of the wing flapping and maybe some of the wing attack and you pretty much have yourself a celestial dragon.


    The stuff it does share with dragons comes from the conversion as some have pointed out. Even then ingame it doesn't really look like anything like the high elf dragons at all. In fact it was a chaos dragon which was used, but the chaos dragon ingame doesn't look anything like the one used for that conversion. Though it does have a bit of a beak at the end funnily enough. Closest thing I can think of is Ghoritch, where I mean, all we had for him was the conversion. Not like they needed an orc warboss model to pull from to make his arms.


    I still think they could've at least loosely based it off the one in the background picture, but from what I've seen, the most widespread one across the internet and the forums was definitely that conversion.



    With all of that said I really wanted to see the concept art for it more than anything else in the dlc. That is definitely a bummer for something so controversial. I thought the alternate cham stalkers looked pretty cool, I would've actually preferred those.


    I don't think it'll be too hard to mod in like a snake head or something on the current Coatl for people who really want it. I mean, the one on the eagle rig was pretty good for what it was, so now that there's actually something that's a much better basis should help.
    I on the other hand remember seeing the art a lot more than the conversion.

    I think it’s fine as it is how Lizardmen lore describes it.
    Looks weird, but always would due to its weirdness in general.

    The Lizardmen lore describes it having either a snake or a dragon head.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,027
    Yeah, tough luck getting a Coatl rework if we apparently can't get proper Stone Trolls from CA. And yeah, we rant about Stone Trolls since we first saw them in Warden & Paunch, but here we are.

    At least in CAs defense, with the Coatl, they went by the latest GW lore giving him a "Dagon head". So while not happy with the beaky version we got, it is more on spot what the goal was then the Stone Troll hit & miss. So the only hope for the Coatl to change its skin, is the same road we had to take to get proper Stone trolls: Mods. I am sure some modder will make a better looking Coatl soonish. WIth a better Dragon head or with the oldskool Snake head is then a different topic.

    -----Red Dox
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