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What's The Idea Behind These Magic Changes, CA?

ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 33,895
1. First step, make wind spells independently aimable from caster position. Before you could see a mage lining up a shot and take measures against it, now that's impossible and you have to dodge wind spells on reaction alone when that Burning Head or Pendulum comes out. Very bad. Was also not coupled with making those spells any more expensive

2.Second step, remove minimum cast distance. Before mages that were caught in melee were hampered in reacting to it with magic. Now they can just call an AoE spell down on themselves and get out of such situations easily and cheaply as SE's take barely any AoE damage. Very bad. Was also not coupled with making those spells any more expensive

3.Third step, have spells affect any unit that has pixels covered by the spell's AoE instead of requiring the unit's center to be inside. That makes spells an even greater crowd control and zoning tool, a buff they didn't need at all. Absolutely TERRIBLE! Most probably also not accompanied by any price increases

CA, may I ask what your idea is behind making magic more and more effective, removing most ways to counter it and leaving it severely undercosted at the same time? All of those measures did not improve the game, they instead encouraged degenerate tactics and removed a good chunk of variety. And of course, since the AI's usage of magic is completely crippled (deliberately at this point I presume), it's just a massive powerboost for no one but the player, as if the game isn't already balanced way too much towards the them anyway.

Is it possible to make magic interesting again for a change?

Comments

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,073
    agree with points 2 and 3, disagree with point 1 BUT will say that some wind spells should have a longer cast time (and some very expensive ones should have shroter cast, e.g. fiery conversation)
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,447
    1. I disagree, was a good change. Back in WH1 no one ever used wind spells, aside from the occasional VC player with WoD. The main spells being used at that time were buff and debuff spells because you could reliably get value from them. The only damage spells commonly picked were direct damage ones such as spirit leech, and magic missiles. Also reverting back to the old days would hurt foot casters the most as they would be unable to effectively position themselves to cast wind spells.
    2. This one I agree is a problem. However I think the solution is for these spells to do more damage to single entities. It’s ridiculous that only point and click damage spells (ie the brain dead and risk free spells) are the ones that can damage single entities the best, especially when single entities are often the most dangerous units in an army. If spellcasters took a ton of damage from casting a vortex on themselves you probably wouldn’t ever see them doing it while surrounded unless they are about to die anyways.
    3. I partly agree. Spells with an aoe radius should hit units so easily. The change in the new dlc is terrible and it’s going to make soul stealer and flock of doom OP. However, if you’re talking about vortexes, I think those should be able to impact units at the edge, albeit at reduced damage.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,895
    edited July 13

    1. I disagree, was a good change. Back in WH1 no one ever used wind spells, aside from the occasional VC player with WoD. The main spells being used at that time were buff and debuff spells because you could reliably get value from them. The only damage spells commonly picked were direct damage ones such as spirit leech, and magic missiles. Also reverting back to the old days would hurt foot casters the most as they would be unable to effectively position themselves to cast wind spells.

    Wind of Death and Penumbral Pendulum were used regularly in WH1, as was Wulfrik's ship so I fully disagree with this assessment. It just required more work to actually make them effective. Right now they're close to guaranteed to pay off because they can come out at any minute and there's barely any time to react to them.

    3. I partly agree. Spells with an aoe radius should hit units so easily. The change in the new dlc is terrible and it’s going to make soul stealer and flock of doom OP. However, if you’re talking about vortexes, I think those should be able to impact units at the edge, albeit at reduced damage.

    The problem with Vortex spells has always been that they have a 80-90% chance of veering off into directions not useful to the caster just by how their pathing is calculated. As I said before, a better change would be just to restrict what directions they can take.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,490
    The “bigger” area of spells did more good than bad.

    Also did any1 has any confirmation it works on EVERYTHING? If thats the case that means aura are actually useful that stupidly affecting just 1-2 units making it completely useless
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  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Registered Users Posts: 243
    I know I'm probably in the minority but I kind of like the aoe change for most spells. Aoe buff, debuff, and damage spells (with a few exceptions like Soul Stealer) have been kind of meh in WH2 in comparison to the wind spells, summon spells, and healing spells that have dominated the meta for years. This change has also fixed the problem where units that did have center mass within the radius would sometimes just not get effected if they were near to the edges due to targeting inconsistencies.

    Only real concern imo is Soul Stealer spam being made stronger, but that can be fixed by just making it work like Final Transmutation where the damage ticks apply to whatever is currently in the aoe rather than what was in the aoe at the time of the cast. (Honestly it really should have always worked like that, both for consistency's sake and because the aoe staying visible after cast would seem to indicate it would still be relevant when it wasn't)
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565
    1, I think instead of going back to what we had it would be best to have the magic able to be aimed in a cone, requiring you to line up a hit, but not requiring you to put a lot of micro into the spell, just get in the general area and then you can target it correctly

    2, 100% agree, however I think that it could be a cool idea for some hybrid casters to be allowed to not have the minimum cast range, WHEN combined with spells being more effective vs SEM

    3, I feel like it should be at minimum like 10% of the units models for it to be activated on the unit, though that could be hard on the system
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,293


    The problem with Vortex spells has always been that they have a 80-90% chance of veering off into directions not useful to the caster just by how their pathing is calculated. As I said before, a better change would be just to restrict what directions they can take.

    Why not just make them homing towards the nearest enemy unit? Then they will be powerful and easy cake like the other spells. You could even allow them to target friendlies if your units are close by so they have a double edge to them.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,610
    I don't agree that making spells easier to use were bad decisions. This game is complicated enough as it is. A fact that sometimes gets lost on very experienced players. Simplifying the casting and control of spells is a fine design goal.

    That said I think the concern OP raises does have a valid element to it. There isn't enough counterplay in the game when it comes to magic. Either some powerful spell's have too short a cast time to dodge, or it's too hard/impossible to disrupt the caster.

    Improving counterplay should be something designers work toward to compensate for the changes they have made in the other direction.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,895
    Jman5 said:

    I don't agree that making spells easier to use were bad decisions. This game is complicated enough as it is. A fact that sometimes gets lost on very experienced players. Simplifying the casting and control of spells is a fine design goal.

    That said I think the concern OP raises does have a valid element to it. There isn't enough counterplay in the game when it comes to magic. Either some powerful spell's have too short a cast time to dodge, or it's too hard/impossible to disrupt the caster.

    Improving counterplay should be something designers work toward to compensate for the changes they have made in the other direction.

    They could have achieved their QoL update to Wind Spells by having the caster move automatically to a place from where you'd get the desired angle. By removing this positioning aspect completely they buffed wind spells a ton, but didn't bother to balance it out in other ways, like increased casting time or or higher gold/WoM cost.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 737
    I wonder if AoE healing follows the same system. If that's the case it got a substantial nerf. Much harder to cast on the right targets if some models from a chaff or full hp unit get unseen in the AoE and snag a heal, counting towards the cap.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,490

    I wonder if AoE healing follows the same system. If that's the case it got a substantial nerf. Much harder to cast on the right targets if some models from a chaff or full hp unit get unseen in the AoE and snag a heal, counting towards the cap.

    It always starts on the point of origin expanding outwards from what i know, u target the guy they will always get the max and closest units
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,890
    I wonder if 3 is just a bandaid for the bad unit cohesion. Ie if you cast on the banner you now always get the effect.

    If so, better fix it properly.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 737
    yst said:

    I wonder if AoE healing follows the same system. If that's the case it got a substantial nerf. Much harder to cast on the right targets if some models from a chaff or full hp unit get unseen in the AoE and snag a heal, counting towards the cap.

    It always starts on the point of origin expanding outwards from what i know, u target the guy they will always get the max and closest units
    but then with the current system you could have some lone models closer to the center even if you think the banner further away... we'll find out, healing probably kept the banner/center mass rule otherwise it's a mess.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,490


    but then with the current system you could have some lone models closer to the center even if you think the banner further away... we'll find out, healing probably kept the banner/center mass rule otherwise it's a mess.

    Not a big deal.

    What is a big deal is aura, if it clips, its implications are HUGE. NO longer do we need hero to baby sit 1-2 unit with those pathetic 30-40m aura, now they do what they have always meant to be, help a grp of units, not just selected few

    We will know in an hr
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  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,895
    edited July 14
    Well, so far the AoE pixel-touch change was as expected utter crap and made AoE damage spells way too potent. I managed at one point to get a Flock of Doom to basically cover 250% of its stated ranged in a Tehenauin test campaign just because some units got drawn apart by the fighting.

    And of course, no price tag was attached to it.

    CA is taking the **** by now with their constant dumbing down of magic.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,756
    edited July 14
    this got be bug right this is **** , who asked for all these changes ?
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 250
    saweendra said:

    this got be bug right this is **** , who asked for all these changes ?

    They are trolling, this is their idea of "keeping it fresh and new"
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 1,638
    The first 2 changes were nice quality of life updates but this latest change is a bit of a head-scratcher. I don't think anyone was complaining that spell AoE's were too small. The way they worked before the patch was the better solution IMO.

    Ideal situation would ofc be if AoE's were sharper so that if 1 model from a unit is within the spell area, that model is affected but not the rest of the unit. But that would mean lag city as it processes each model separately so it's not a very realistic expectation.

    That said, I wouldn't mind if spellcasters and other single entities took a singular "miscast" hit if a Vortex/Wind spell is cast on them. I don't like using technical/mechanical limitations as a balance tool but I do like using trade-offs. Cast a Banishment on yourself if you like but it should cost you something.
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • The AoE changes are a bug, not a design decision, and we are aiming to fix in the next patch (keeping in mind that development is always subject to change)
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    I like first two changes. Only caveat that I could see being added is if casters took more damage from their own spells if they are caught in it, maybe triggering a miscast if they are in the AoE so it is not so easy for them to just cast aoe spell on themselves.
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