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Poor cavalry..

davedave1124davedave1124 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 16,085
.. more to the point - poor Bretonnia:

«1345678

Comments

  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 12,327
    Let's hope CA will focus more on balance in Warhammer 3 because it's been really bad lately. Both in battle and campaign.
    #JusticeForTzeentch
    #JusticeForMonogods

  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    I just saw it and I can’t stop seeing it now 😳

    The worst part is that this was the last patch for TWW2. I will have to wait for SFO to fix it lol
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085
    I don't notice cavalry much because I don't use them. However, if I play Vampires I love a decent Blood Knight charge.. bad times.
  • SerkeletSerkelet Member Registered Users Posts: 546
    This is awful. I actually do love cavalry in Warhammer, and seeing this makes my heart bleed. CA, plx fix.
  • capybarasiesta89capybarasiesta89 Senior Member Bath, UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,091
    Omg this is terrible, they really need to release patch fixing all the bugs.
    #JusticeForTzeentch #JusticeForMonogods

    7bmg1fojzz69.jpg
  • PrayPray Registered Users Posts: 1,508
    We have been complain about cavalry are too weak some how CA nerfed them .
    I didn't notice this because I'm playing Dwarf since new update .
  • joproulx99joproulx99 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    edited July 16
    Idk...I want heavy cav to be better too, but I'll not shy away and say the video show a scenario that I think work as intended. Let me explain why:

    If you make it the other way around, then heavy infantry become even more of a liability then they can already be, they are expensive and slow and die to spells easy etc...

    Otherwise you take no infantry and use cavalry instead and you have no downside. (other than "useless" in sieges)

    Even historical battles show heavy infantry being impossible to charge for heavy cav.

    Again in the video, this is a VERY extreme in bad match up, heavy inf with high charge and hp etc...the cav is high charge but very fragile defence wise. Working as intended I say.

    My biggest complain with heavy cav is they should have more defence and staying power in melee, not high sustain dps but more defence so you can hold a bit more without melting in sustain combat, they should tank well but only do good dps when they cycle charge.

    That and better siege that can make good use of cavalry, like larger wall breaches etc...those columns that are impossible to destroy between wall section breaches are bad design and need to go.
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    Idk...I want heavy cav to be better too, but I'll not shy away and say the video show a scenario that I think work as intended. Let me explain why:

    If you make it the other way around, then heavy infantry become even more of a liability then they can already be, they are expensive and slow and die to spells easy etc...

    Otherwise you take no infantry and use cavalry instead and you have no downside. (other than "useless" in sieges)

    Even historical battles show heavy infantry being impossible to charge for heavy cav.

    Again in the video, this is a VERY extreme in bad match up, heavy inf with high charge and hp etc...the cav is high charge but very fragile defence wise. Working as intended I say.

    My biggest complain with heavy cav is they should have more defence and staying power in melee, not high sustain dps but more defence so you can hold a bit more without melting in sustain combat, they should tank well but only do good dps when they cycle charge.

    That and better siege that can make good use of cavalry, like larger wall breaches etc...those columns that are impossible to destroy between wall section breaches are bad design and need to go.

    I don't think they do always die to spells easily, only ones with armour piercing. Also, the evidence he showed was base light infantry coming out better while they are unbraced and cavalry is charging them. Surely that's not on.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,656
    edited July 16
    Poor bretonnia was always the case in MP just fay double paladin q knights hard carry now supported by pox arrows.


    Once fay and paladins either nerfed or reworked not be current op combination brets will go to thr bottom

    As for campaign i doubt hardly anyone felt this.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085
    I remember when Bretonnia was popular with the main MP’s who appeared in competitions. Might not be the case now.
  • joproulx99joproulx99 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Indypride said:

    Idk...I want heavy cav to be better too, but I'll not shy away and say the video show a scenario that I think work as intended. Let me explain why:

    If you make it the other way around, then heavy infantry become even more of a liability then they can already be, they are expensive and slow and die to spells easy etc...

    Otherwise you take no infantry and use cavalry instead and you have no downside. (other than "useless" in sieges)

    Even historical battles show heavy infantry being impossible to charge for heavy cav.

    Again in the video, this is a VERY extreme in bad match up, heavy inf with high charge and hp etc...the cav is high charge but very fragile defence wise. Working as intended I say.

    My biggest complain with heavy cav is they should have more defence and staying power in melee, not high sustain dps but more defence so you can hold a bit more without melting in sustain combat, they should tank well but only do good dps when they cycle charge.

    That and better siege that can make good use of cavalry, like larger wall breaches etc...those columns that are impossible to destroy between wall section breaches are bad design and need to go.

    So your argument is that an 850 gold GW unit with 26 charge bonus, should deal significantly MORE damage than a 1400 gold monstrous cav unit with 60 charge bonus, much more momentum, and much higher mass, ON THE CHARGE?

    Well okay then.



    "Even historical battles show heavy infantry being impossible to charge for heavy cav". The part you forgot to add here is that the infantry in those scenarios was BRACED. A thin line of charging infantry loses its cohesion and its ability to resist the impact of even regular knights, much less monstrous cavalry the size of a freaking Rhinoceros.
    Hey Indy! Like your vids BTW!

    Although I understand your point as I used to think the same actually, when I modded cav to be like you say, then heavy infantry became almost useless :/

    I could just buy best cavs and counter all infantry, ranged, melee etc, even spears because in the end you have the speed to isolate them and pin them down and charge from all sides, you got the speed for it.

    The only thing I dislike in the vid scenario is the speed at which units melt, the end result (cav ending up losing) is ok IMO, what is not is the cav (the fight) should last longer.

    Also lets be frank, AI doesnt brace in this game nearly as much as it should so there is that...
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,498
    **** that's terrible.

    I really hope that CA has a good bug fix and balance patch still in the works... this is not something they should leave unfixed :(

    ...I was wondering why my nasty skulkers were doing so well :(
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,049
    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,498
    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    It actually just decreased mine as well... :(

    Just be sure to never charge them head in against a charging target, I guess... which... is entirely contrary to everything Bretonnian. But if you're attacking an already engaged target, or hitting one from the sides or rear it should be OK I guess.
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,049
    Itharus said:

    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    It actually just decreased mine as well... :(

    Just be sure to never charge them head in against a charging target, I guess... which... is entirely contrary to everything Bretonnian. But if you're attacking an already engaged target, or hitting one from the sides or rear it should be OK I guess.
    Even then though, just pulling cav out is now considerably harder than it should be and is going to cause loses that you shouldn't take according to this.
  • joproulx99joproulx99 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    Itharus said:

    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    It actually just decreased mine as well... :(

    Just be sure to never charge them head in against a charging target, I guess... which... is entirely contrary to everything Bretonnian. But if you're attacking an already engaged target, or hitting one from the sides or rear it should be OK I guess.
    You should not though, cav role is to flank and chase ranged units. Brets cav is good at that, good at charging other cav and win the flank battle, then overload the enemy back line and rear charge the front line. Its not about braindead charging head first into AP heavy infantry in the front.

    In 6th ed. when I played TT the most as an adult, you could charge in the front of anything with Brets cav and break the front line most of the time, but good players could counter that by fleeing the charge to make it fail and counter charging to pin Bret cav down. But in TW it doesnt work like that because you dont have charge reactions to counter powerful charges etc...its not the same rule set.

    But Brets cav like KotR is good (or cost effective) in its TW role of flanking and chasing and overloading.
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830
    It's the damn LotR effect again. They see the Rohirrim charge and carving through heavy infantry like butter and think that's how cavalry is supposed to behave.

    Nope, it's not. Tight formations were deployed to provide protection against charge impacts. They should definitely not get get bowling-pinned by high mass units running into them.

    What is happening here is that infantry gets a lot more hits in on counter-charges than is reasonable, but that's a different kind of problem. Which is that bracing is damn near useless and so you are always better off to counter-charge.


  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,764
    Well that's a bug and a half.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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  • Xerxes52Xerxes52 Registered Users Posts: 769
    Okay so it is a bug. I was wondering why my Centigors deleted themselves on a unit of regular Clanrats in my Taurox campaign.

    Guess cavalry are a no go until CA gets a hotfix beta rolled out in the coming weeks.
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,049

    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    Itharus said:

    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    It actually just decreased mine as well... :(

    Just be sure to never charge them head in against a charging target, I guess... which... is entirely contrary to everything Bretonnian. But if you're attacking an already engaged target, or hitting one from the sides or rear it should be OK I guess.
    You should not though, cav role is to flank and chase ranged units. Brets cav is good at that, good at charging other cav and win the flank battle, then overload the enemy back line and rear charge the front line. Its not about braindead charging head first into AP heavy infantry in the front.

    In 6th ed. when I played TT the most as an adult, you could charge in the front of anything with Brets cav and break the front line most of the time, but good players could counter that by fleeing the charge to make it fail and counter charging to pin Bret cav down. But in TW it doesnt work like that because you dont have charge reactions to counter powerful charges etc...its not the same rule set.

    But Brets cav like KotR is good (or cost effective) in its TW role of flanking and chasing and overloading.
    TW end game Bret has to use full cav armies with grail guardians as the line holders. You can't compete late game if you actually keep using bret inf on VH/L.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 2,453
    This video hurts my soul. :'(
    I hope CA will quickly fix it
  • joproulx99joproulx99 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Prkl8r said:

    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    Itharus said:

    Prkl8r said:

    As a Bretonnia player who hasn't really played a campaign with them or any Cav using faction since before the WE update..........

    Seeing this has dropped my desire to play with the latest update to near zero.

    It actually just decreased mine as well... :(

    Just be sure to never charge them head in against a charging target, I guess... which... is entirely contrary to everything Bretonnian. But if you're attacking an already engaged target, or hitting one from the sides or rear it should be OK I guess.
    You should not though, cav role is to flank and chase ranged units. Brets cav is good at that, good at charging other cav and win the flank battle, then overload the enemy back line and rear charge the front line. Its not about braindead charging head first into AP heavy infantry in the front.

    In 6th ed. when I played TT the most as an adult, you could charge in the front of anything with Brets cav and break the front line most of the time, but good players could counter that by fleeing the charge to make it fail and counter charging to pin Bret cav down. But in TW it doesnt work like that because you dont have charge reactions to counter powerful charges etc...its not the same rule set.

    But Brets cav like KotR is good (or cost effective) in its TW role of flanking and chasing and overloading.
    TW end game Bret has to use full cav armies with grail guardians as the line holders. You can't compete late game if you actually keep using bret inf on VH/L.
    Grail Guardians are very expansive to play a tank role, spear M-at-A (shield) can tank a lot with gold chevrons and red skill buffs they can close 60 MD, 15 Phys Resist and have 55 block. They are very cost efficient as tanking frontline.

    Doomstack is Hyppo Knights with healz though.

    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • joproulx99joproulx99 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Xerxes52 said:

    Okay so it is a bug. I was wondering why my Centigors deleted themselves on a unit of regular Clanrats in my Taurox campaign.

    Guess cavalry are a no go until CA gets a hotfix beta rolled out in the coming weeks.

    I just went to test this in custom battles and normal centigors, not even GW, delete clanrats (shield) without even trying hard, so unless there is a campaign bug or other factors went into play, then its simply not true.
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,656
    either case this was known to be the case couple months ago well before the release of Silence and the Fury , so what ever **** this up is not simple fix.

    we knew about this around Late april
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • xDEMOSxxDEMOSx Registered Users Posts: 746
    edited July 17
    I follow a little of the game's competitive scene, I find it interesting.

    But the multiplayer section of the forum, jesus, is a totally partial environment and it's toxic.

    But mass is breaking the game in so many different ways, and since warhammer1 , mass often means dodge.
    when the doombull goes flying across the map it is dodge,cicle charging is dodge, foot lords being knocked down is dodge, elite infantry failing to deal any damage to monsters/cav/chariots is dodge.
    And most competitive games don't allow any form of dodge.

    because for a game to be balanced the simplest and most basic thing that must happen is: the stats work in game.
    If game3 wants to have some bigger competitive pretense, it needs to fix all the collision systems, or separate the visual components from the damage calculations.

    from what i feel playing the game the cavalry when counter charged is taking damage from the flying units, it's probably also taking damage from the second line which now has contact area to attack after the first line flies, i kind of see that.

    CA should have fixed it in this patch, hotfix is ​​not for the problems of months ago, I think they gave up on that, it's cavalry will be have your time only in game3.


  • zeekjwzeekjw Registered Users Posts: 127
    Damn that's an eye opener, especially the vs gor test he did. That should NEVER happen
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,498

    It's the damn LotR effect again. They see the Rohirrim charge and carving through heavy infantry like butter and think that's how cavalry is supposed to behave.

    Nope, it's not. Tight formations were deployed to provide protection against charge impacts. They should definitely not get get bowling-pinned by high mass units running into them.

    What is happening here is that infantry gets a lot more hits in on counter-charges than is reasonable, but that's a different kind of problem. Which is that bracing is damn near useless and so you are always better off to counter-charge.

    At the same time though -- a unit of knights in plate with long lances absolutely did kersplatter infantry (shy of pikemen). Like... you're right but you're also wrong, depending on what era and forces you're talking about.

    They were used more for attacks on already engaged units, flanks, rears, etc, absolutely -- especially the lighter cavalry. But there very much was a place for a frontal charge of lance bearing knights. There's a reason lances were longer than spears.

    Bretonnia is meant to have the epitome of such knights, capable of sweep anything aside shy of a very well disciplined unit of halberdiers or pikemen.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,068
    edited July 17
    I'm glad a bigtime totalwar youtuber has brought light to this issue, its been known in the multiplayer community since just after the WE dlc but only slowly gained attention.
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,049

    It's the damn LotR effect again. They see the Rohirrim charge and carving through heavy infantry like butter and think that's how cavalry is supposed to behave.

    Nope, it's not. Tight formations were deployed to provide protection against charge impacts. They should definitely not get get bowling-pinned by high mass units running into them.

    What is happening here is that infantry gets a lot more hits in on counter-charges than is reasonable, but that's a different kind of problem. Which is that bracing is damn near useless and so you are always better off to counter-charge.

    That's not even fully true. Depending on the time period, because we're talking about hundreds of years of warfare, frontal heavy cav charges were used to great effect. There are actual examples of it in medieval battles. The idea that specifically heavy cav was only used for flanking is the false idea that people keep spreading. It wasn't until the advent of full plate and the increased use of the pike that frontal heavy cav charges were rendered fully obsolete.
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