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Infantry counter-charging Cavalry gets 3 or 4 times more attacks than they should.

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  • FedakynFedakyn Registered Users Posts: 31
    edited July 2021

    eumaies said:

    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.

    i agree with this AND i agree with indy that in an ideal case Cav would trade proportionally better in those head to heads.
    Honestly the only thing that irritates me is how useless bracing is. In my idea of the perfect TW game counter-charging cavalry wouldn't be super helpful, but bracing and absorbing a frontal charge would have a damage reflection effect.
    This I agree with too. Bracing and anti-large infantry has been underpowered for a long time. I dont think cavalry should be able to frontal charge a phalanx or a wall of elite anti-cavalry. Thats dumb too. Its that cavalry cant charge the units they are supposed to counter thats the problem. Infantry needed mass, and they got it well before the Rakarth patch led to this. that is specifically what i find harmful.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,739
    I don't think the problem lies with cavalry. I've run tests with another plyer back when the issue was first spotted. Infantry nuke on the charge monstous inf and other infantry too actually. Inf is where the fixing focus should be. Look for anything wrong with cav later, otherwise we risk fixing stuff on wrong premises.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    look here's the math (with some liberties taken to make it easier), the damage each model does on the charge and withoiut CB

    Wild rider
    35%base+34%MA+62%CB-35%MD=90%*(42WS+62CB)=94*89%AR=83
    35%base+34%MA+0%CB-35%MD=34%*(42WS+0CB)=14*89%AR=13

    Gor herd
    35%base+26%MA+22%CB-23%MD=60%*(30WS+22CB)=31*70%AR=22
    35%base+26%MA+22%CB-23%MD=34%*(30WS+0CB)=10*89%AR=9

    On the charge, wild riders pr model do almost 4 times the damage. BUT gor herd has twice as many models and about +20% hitpoints pr unit.
    factor those in and the wild rider advantage even on the charge is only about 180% and indeed inthe vid you see gor herd breaking having taken about 67% damage and given about 33% damage to wild riders. Factor in cost and thats an even trade at best. Had the battle lasted longer and the wild riders lost their CB they'd be in trouble.

    Chaos knight lances
    35%base+42%MA+80%CB-48%MD=90%*(46WS+80CB)=113//37+76*68%AR=52
    35%base+42%MA+0%CB-36%MD=41%*(46WS+0CB)=19//6+13*68%AR=15

    Swordmasters
    35%base+46%MA+20%CB-34%MD=67%*(36WS+20CB)=38//26+12*10%AR=27
    35%base+46%MA+0%CB-34%MD=47%*(36WS+0CB)=17//12+5*10%AR=13

    Similarly about a 2:1 relation pr model, there's +67% swordmasters though which takes away most of that advantage, and as the battle progresses and the chaos knights lose their charge bonus the tide turns in favor of swordmasters especially if cavalry doesnt manage to kill but only wound models

    Again there's nothing magical or hidden going on here, its just the unitdesign and math playing out.
    Have cavalry paid too much for their mobility? no. elite cavalry is used more often than elite infantry precisely because mobility is a very strong ability and therefore should come at a high cost.
    Comparing fe chaos knights to chosen they lose about 15% health, 25% models, downgrade their shield, 11 LD and some (ca 5) combat stats even after you factor in that many have been converted to CB. In return this makes them better against about half the units in the game (ranged, chariots, foot skirmish, artillery), and offers a hugely useful tactical advantage they can leverage to outperform chosen even against some enemies of other categories.

    The idea that cavalry should destroy everything that isnt specifically designed to counter them is just ludicrous.
    They could be redesigned to be better on the charge fe, getting their CB to MD as well IN RETURN FOR GETTING MORE VULNERABILITY OUTSIDE CHARGE, fe halving their hitpoints.
    You could also "fix" the interaction with GW infantry by converting half their CB to MA.

    But the game is balanced as it is now. ppl just have to give up this idea that their fast melee should costeffectively trade with slow melee whose only advantage would then be that they arent killed by those units designed to destroy fast melee. that would be terrible design.

    Choose your targets carefully, use your mobility. cavalry isnt click and win nor should they be.
  • AsamuAsamu Registered Users Posts: 1,243
    Cav performance is a bit poor atm, but there aren't any bugs going on here. The only thing happening is that infantry have better stats and both are able to consistently attack.

    A "fair" fight between cav and infantry shouldn't favor the cavalry. If both charge, with current game mechanics, infantry should come out better. Cav can pick its fights much more easily than infantry can, and get flank/rear charges much more easily.

    Cav stats can be buffed a bit, and some mechanics could be changed, to make charging worse/bracing better for infantry when facing cav, but cav shouldn't just be buffed to the point where it's able to trade efficiently with infantry in a 'fair' situation like these unit tests; that'd make any infantry without charge defense/anti-large pointless.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,302
    Asamu said:

    Cav performance is a bit poor atm, but there aren't any bugs going on here. The only thing happening is that infantry have better stats and both are able to consistently attack.

    A "fair" fight between cav and infantry shouldn't favor the cavalry. If both charge, with current game mechanics, infantry should come out better. Cav can pick its fights much more easily than infantry can, and get flank/rear charges much more easily.

    Cav stats can be buffed a bit, and some mechanics could be changed, to make charging worse/bracing better for infantry when facing cav, but cav shouldn't just be buffed to the point where it's able to trade efficiently with infantry in a 'fair' situation like these unit tests; that'd make any infantry without charge defense/anti-large pointless.

    RawSugar said:

    look here's the math (with some liberties taken to make it easier), the damage each model does on the charge and withoiut CB

    Wild rider
    35%base+34%MA+62%CB-35%MD=90%*(42WS+62CB)=94*89%AR=83
    35%base+34%MA+0%CB-35%MD=34%*(42WS+0CB)=14*89%AR=13

    Gor herd
    35%base+26%MA+22%CB-23%MD=60%*(30WS+22CB)=31*70%AR=22
    35%base+26%MA+22%CB-23%MD=34%*(30WS+0CB)=10*89%AR=9

    On the charge, wild riders pr model do almost 4 times the damage. BUT gor herd has twice as many models and about +20% hitpoints pr unit.
    factor those in and the wild rider advantage even on the charge is only about 180% and indeed inthe vid you see gor herd breaking having taken about 67% damage and given about 33% damage to wild riders. Factor in cost and thats an even trade at best. Had the battle lasted longer and the wild riders lost their CB they'd be in trouble.

    Chaos knight lances
    35%base+42%MA+80%CB-48%MD=90%*(46WS+80CB)=113//37+76*68%AR=52
    35%base+42%MA+0%CB-36%MD=41%*(46WS+0CB)=19//6+13*68%AR=15

    Swordmasters
    35%base+46%MA+20%CB-34%MD=67%*(36WS+20CB)=38//26+12*10%AR=27
    35%base+46%MA+0%CB-34%MD=47%*(36WS+0CB)=17//12+5*10%AR=13

    Similarly about a 2:1 relation pr model, there's +67% swordmasters though which takes away most of that advantage, and as the battle progresses and the chaos knights lose their charge bonus the tide turns in favor of swordmasters especially if cavalry doesnt manage to kill but only wound models

    Again there's nothing magical or hidden going on here, its just the unitdesign and math playing out.
    Have cavalry paid too much for their mobility? no. elite cavalry is used more often than elite infantry precisely because mobility is a very strong ability and therefore should come at a high cost.
    Comparing fe chaos knights to chosen they lose about 15% health, 25% models, downgrade their shield, 11 LD and some (ca 5) combat stats even after you factor in that many have been converted to CB. In return this makes them better against about half the units in the game (ranged, chariots, foot skirmish, artillery), and offers a hugely useful tactical advantage they can leverage to outperform chosen even against some enemies of other categories.

    The idea that cavalry should destroy everything that isnt specifically designed to counter them is just ludicrous.
    They could be redesigned to be better on the charge fe, getting their CB to MD as well IN RETURN FOR GETTING MORE VULNERABILITY OUTSIDE CHARGE, fe halving their hitpoints.
    You could also "fix" the interaction with GW infantry by converting half their CB to MA.

    But the game is balanced as it is now. ppl just have to give up this idea that their fast melee should costeffectively trade with slow melee whose only advantage would then be that they arent killed by those units designed to destroy fast melee. that would be terrible design.

    Choose your targets carefully, use your mobility. cavalry isnt click and win nor should they be.

    Nope. It didn't use to be this way. Something has definetely changed.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    Pocman said:


    Asamu said:

    Cav performance is a bit poor atm, but there aren't any bugs going on here. The only thing happening is that infantry have better stats and both are able to consistently attack.

    A "fair" fight between cav and infantry shouldn't favor the cavalry. If both charge, with current game mechanics, infantry should come out better. Cav can pick its fights much more easily than infantry can, and get flank/rear charges much more easily.

    Cav stats can be buffed a bit, and some mechanics could be changed, to make charging worse/bracing better for infantry when facing cav, but cav shouldn't just be buffed to the point where it's able to trade efficiently with infantry in a 'fair' situation like these unit tests; that'd make any infantry without charge defense/anti-large pointless.

    RawSugar said:

    look here's the math (with some liberties taken to make it easier), the damage each model does on the charge and withoiut CB

    Wild rider
    35%base+34%MA+62%CB-35%MD=90%*(42WS+62CB)=94*89%AR=83
    35%base+34%MA+0%CB-35%MD=34%*(42WS+0CB)=14*89%AR=13

    Gor herd
    35%base+26%MA+22%CB-23%MD=60%*(30WS+22CB)=31*70%AR=22
    35%base+26%MA+22%CB-23%MD=34%*(30WS+0CB)=10*89%AR=9

    On the charge, wild riders pr model do almost 4 times the damage. BUT gor herd has twice as many models and about +20% hitpoints pr unit.
    factor those in and the wild rider advantage even on the charge is only about 180% and indeed inthe vid you see gor herd breaking having taken about 67% damage and given about 33% damage to wild riders. Factor in cost and thats an even trade at best. Had the battle lasted longer and the wild riders lost their CB they'd be in trouble.

    Chaos knight lances
    35%base+42%MA+80%CB-48%MD=90%*(46WS+80CB)=113//37+76*68%AR=52
    35%base+42%MA+0%CB-36%MD=41%*(46WS+0CB)=19//6+13*68%AR=15

    Swordmasters
    35%base+46%MA+20%CB-34%MD=67%*(36WS+20CB)=38//26+12*10%AR=27
    35%base+46%MA+0%CB-34%MD=47%*(36WS+0CB)=17//12+5*10%AR=13

    Similarly about a 2:1 relation pr model, there's +67% swordmasters though which takes away most of that advantage, and as the battle progresses and the chaos knights lose their charge bonus the tide turns in favor of swordmasters especially if cavalry doesnt manage to kill but only wound models

    Again there's nothing magical or hidden going on here, its just the unitdesign and math playing out.
    Have cavalry paid too much for their mobility? no. elite cavalry is used more often than elite infantry precisely because mobility is a very strong ability and therefore should come at a high cost.
    Comparing fe chaos knights to chosen they lose about 15% health, 25% models, downgrade their shield, 11 LD and some (ca 5) combat stats even after you factor in that many have been converted to CB. In return this makes them better against about half the units in the game (ranged, chariots, foot skirmish, artillery), and offers a hugely useful tactical advantage they can leverage to outperform chosen even against some enemies of other categories.

    The idea that cavalry should destroy everything that isnt specifically designed to counter them is just ludicrous.
    They could be redesigned to be better on the charge fe, getting their CB to MD as well IN RETURN FOR GETTING MORE VULNERABILITY OUTSIDE CHARGE, fe halving their hitpoints.
    You could also "fix" the interaction with GW infantry by converting half their CB to MA.

    But the game is balanced as it is now. ppl just have to give up this idea that their fast melee should costeffectively trade with slow melee whose only advantage would then be that they arent killed by those units designed to destroy fast melee. that would be terrible design.

    Choose your targets carefully, use your mobility. cavalry isnt click and win nor should they be.

    Nope. It didn't use to be this way. Something has definetely changed.
    yes what changed is that infantry now gets to hit back whereas before knockback would prevent them from doing so. that was a bug, the bug is fixed. this isnt a bug, its just stats, which are completely justifiable
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 934
    Fedakyn said:

    yes what changed is that infantry now gets to hit back whereas before knockback would prevent them from doing so. that was a bug, the bug is fixed. this isnt a bug, its just stats, which are completely justifiable

    Braced infantry vs cav, with charge defense & bonus vs large, should not be more effective when it is unbraced and charging, whether this is a bug or not.

    Historical or Fantasy RTS/RTT games depend on a careful balance between infantry, cavalry and ranged. Ranged has been consistantly strong in TW:W2, but it was, until recently, readily countered by cavalry. Cavalry has been hit too hard by recent changes. The boar chariot and AOE spell damage multipliers, which are bugs, also damage balance.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    edited July 2021
    blindjonn said:

    Fedakyn said:

    yes what changed is that infantry now gets to hit back whereas before knockback would prevent them from doing so. that was a bug, the bug is fixed. this isnt a bug, its just stats, which are completely justifiable

    Braced infantry vs cav, with charge defense & bonus vs large, should not be more effective when it is unbraced and charging, whether this is a bug or not.

    Historical or Fantasy RTS/RTT games depend on a careful balance between infantry, cavalry and ranged. Ranged has been consistantly strong in TW:W2, but it was, until recently, readily countered by cavalry. Cavalry has been hit too hard by recent changes. The boar chariot and AOE spell damage multipliers, which are bugs, also damage balance.
    as far as i can tell bracing does next to nothing and charge defense is pretty much always online regardless of what youre doing as long as youre facing the attacker. that could be changed. bracing, standing still, not engaged in melee, giving 50% charge defense to all units, and charge defense only being online when braced (50% when not) would be a radical change that might not completely destroy balance...
    It doesnt impact the balance of cavalry vs nonAL infantry though. Its still not a bug but a design decision of bracing being pretty much immaterial

    cavalry still destroys ranged, and chariots are specialized in that now that they have mass to move through infantry. balance is great now - once the chariot bugs are fixed
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    They should reduce charge bonus on most infantry units and I am talking down to single digits. You can then have some infantry with higher charge bonus doing damage to cavalry on counter-charge when relevant, it makes sense on some beastmen units like bestigors.

    The problem as stated is simply math, infantry have a lot more models, thus they just deal more damage on charge because charge bonus is a flat increase to damage per model. I think it's fine that some infantry can take on cavalry on frontal charge, the idea that cavalry should always win on frontal charge is a faulty one but definitely most infantry shouldn't be doing so much damage on charge, to anything.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,739
    Asamu said:

    Cav performance is a bit poor atm, but there aren't any bugs going on here. The only thing happening is that infantry have better stats and both are able to consistently attack.

    A "fair" fight between cav and infantry shouldn't favor the cavalry. If both charge, with current game mechanics, infantry should come out better. Cav can pick its fights much more easily than infantry can, and get flank/rear charges much more easily.

    Cav stats can be buffed a bit, and some mechanics could be changed, to make charging worse/bracing better for infantry when facing cav, but cav shouldn't just be buffed to the point where it's able to trade efficiently with infantry in a 'fair' situation like these unit tests; that'd make any infantry without charge defense/anti-large pointless.

    Hm if there is no bug, then yeah. I think the most ideal overall ''fix'' would be for infantry to generally prefer bracing than countercharging. To achieve this perhaps reducing charge bonuses and also adding some benefit to bracing (not charge defence but something) would be the way to do it.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    edited July 2021
    Also watching the video in OP, it's extremely misleading. He is charging questing knights against bestigors, they are two units that cost nearly the same, questing knights are not shock cavalry while bestigors function somewhat like cavalry with their high speed and high charge bonus. Bestigors have a speed of 36, charge bonus of 32, melee attack of 35 and weapon damage of 40 for 1050g and they are a well-balanced unit. Questing knights meanwhile have a speed of 75, charge bonus of 41, melee attack of 40, weapon strength of 48 for 1100 and are not shock cavalry.

    It's no surprise bestigors, with their nearly as high charge bonus, weapon damage together with more models deal more damage in a frontal counter-charge to same price non-shock cavalry, there is nothing wrong with that. The idea that any unit with horse on its icon should deal more damage to any small infantry on frontal charge trade is simply silly. Heavy infantry is and should be the counter to cavalry.
  • ArtagnanArtagnan Registered Users Posts: 44
    edited July 2021
    Frook said:

    Also watching the video in OP, it's extremely misleading. He is charging questing knights against bestigors, they are two units that cost nearly the same, questing knights are not shock cavalry while bestigors function somewhat like cavalry with their high speed and high charge bonus. Bestigors have a speed of 36, charge bonus of 32, melee attack of 35 and weapon damage of 40 for 1050g and they are a well-balanced unit. Questing knights meanwhile have a speed of 75, charge bonus of 41, melee attack of 40, weapon strength of 48 for 1100 and are not shock cavalry.

    It's no surprise bestigors, with their nearly as high charge bonus, weapon damage together with more models deal more damage in a frontal counter-charge to same price non-shock cavalry, there is nothing wrong with that. The idea that any unit with horse on its icon should deal more damage to any small infantry on frontal charge trade is simply silly. Heavy infantry is and should be the counter to cavalry.

    he was also chargig mournfang cavalry and wild riders against bestigors, chaos knights against swordmasters of hoeth;
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    edited July 2021
    Artagnan said:



    he was also chargig mournfang cavalry and wild riders against bestigors, chaos knights against swordmasters of hoeth;

    Wild riders also cost as much as bestigors and have no AP. Chaos Knights again have no AP so charging them against armored heavy infantry frontally is bad idea. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the cavalry using that engagement on frontal charge.

    If there is a bug regarding counter-charge attacks from small units against larger units that should be fixed, but there is nothing wrong with non-ap cavalry losing out against high armor elite infantry. Particularly ones like bestigors that themselves have as high charge bonus as cavalry or swordmasters that have very high MD.

    Again, the idea that anything with a horse on its icon should automatically trade well on frontal charge exchange is nonsensical. In terms of "realism", bestigors are as big as the horses cavalry are using.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,180

    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.

    They are already paying for like 400-500 more. The premium for mobility is already paid.
    Heavy inf also get advantage of massive more hp like chaos warrior over cav. Where is that premium?

    I'm not sure what this paragraph is trying to say. Can you clarify?
    what I am I saying is about your point that cav pays premium for mobility.
    Yes, I agree they do,
    If they cost the same, a demi lance should perform a lot worse than CW GW when both are charging each other.
    But they dont cost the same, the demi lance already cost a lot more than CW GW, it already paid the premium for mobility and still perform worse against CW GW.
    Add on the top that CW GW should pay premium for their massive HP advantage too which a lot of other forumers conveniently forget.

    i used demi lance and cw gw because it was the main example before.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,063

    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.

    They are already paying for like 400-500 more. The premium for mobility is already paid.
    Heavy inf also get advantage of massive more hp like chaos warrior over cav. Where is that premium?

    I'm not sure what this paragraph is trying to say. Can you clarify?
    what I am I saying is about your point that cav pays premium for mobility.
    Yes, I agree they do,
    If they cost the same, a demi lance should perform a lot worse than CW GW when both are charging each other.
    But they dont cost the same, the demi lance already cost a lot more than CW GW, it already paid the premium for mobility and still perform worse against CW GW.
    Add on the top that CW GW should pay premium for their massive HP advantage too which a lot of other forumers conveniently forget.

    i used demi lance and cw gw because it was the main example before.
    And what I'm saying is that what I saw happening in the video looked fine for normal cavalry and only slightly worse than it should be for monstrous cavalry. The demis and Mournfangs performed pretty badly, but Wild Riders charging headlong into Gor Herd mopped the floor with them and Chaos Knights charging headlong into Swordsmasters traded evenly - in other words, multi-model cavalry doing a really stupid thing traded downwards but still inflicted a lot of damage. That's good.

    There was a line in the video that I think is indicative of an attitude about cavalry/infantry interactions that I simply, flatly, absolutely disagree with, and it was when Indy was talking over the Wild Riders while they crushed the Gor Herd;

    "Yes, the Wild Riders will win here - I fact they'll smack that ass convincingly - but it's a bad trade for them in a situation where they should utterly dominate and take minimal hits."

    What? Absolutely not! Wild Riders, a fast, lightly-armored cavalry unit, should MOST DEFINITELY be taking damage if they choose to whip their dicks out and charge right into the teeth of an infantry unit. Is it a bad trade for cavalry to go headfirst into the front of an unshaken infantry formation? YES! That is the point of infantry. If superfast cavalry units could carelessly dunk on infantry without taking appreciable damage, without even having to care about facing and positioning, then the game balance would be fundamentally broken.

    Now, monstrous cavalry - Mournfangs, Demigryphs, etc - need a double-check, because it seems like they're taking more damage than expected. If I had to guess I'd say that it's a factor of flanking bonuses kicking in as they get surrounded by 8-10 infantry models apiece, and that might be something that could use tweaking. But normal 45 or 60 model cavalry units appear to be working as intended and as desired.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 660
    Saying that infantry should trade well against cavalry is such a garbage take that goes against all semblance of game balance. What these people are saying is basically that all infantry should be able to trade well into cavalry on the charge, making most expensive cavalry worthless in MP. As if infantry weren't strong enough in MP at the moment.

    I really hope CA is wise enough to ignore these people and actually fixes this but at this point I'm not holding my breath. Infantry should be heavily punished for taking a direct cavalry charge and those arguing against this are arguing for a game that they can win with no skill where position and formation of units does not matter. Stuff like this is actually killing the game. Half the units in the game are basically worthless because of this bug, other bugs, and the mass changes.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264

    Saying that infantry should trade well against cavalry is such a garbage take that goes against all semblance of game balance. What these people are saying is basically that all infantry should be able to trade well into cavalry on the charge, making most expensive cavalry worthless in MP. As if infantry weren't strong enough in MP at the moment.

    I really hope CA is wise enough to ignore these people and actually fixes this but at this point I'm not holding my breath. Infantry should be heavily punished for taking a direct cavalry charge and those arguing against this are arguing for a game that they can win with no skill where position and formation of units does not matter. Stuff like this is actually killing the game. Half the units in the game are basically worthless because of this bug, other bugs, and the mass changes.

    If same cost heavy cavalry charges, from front, same cost heavy infantry, then the heavy infantry should win.This is how you have game balance and tactics.

    If you have two units, both costing 1000, one wins against another, and is also on top of that faster and deals more damage in shorter time, why would you ever use the slower unit? Cavalry should be used to flank or achieve local superiority, not to mindlessly charge frontally to whatever they come across and win just because they have a horse on their icon.

    If you actually cared about tactics, instead of this unrealistic fantasy of cavalry charge being be all and end all of strategy, you would understand that cavalry is worthwhile because of their mobility and burst of damage. Cavalry is meant to be used in hammer and anvil, or achieve local numerical superiority or assist units in the battlefield in rapid response. They are not meant to just charge into every infantry they come across and steam roll them regardless of price point.

    It used to be this way too, you could have random reiksguard charge into black orcs frontally and pull back, dealing essentially free damage to black orcs because they would get knocked back and couldn't fight back while you pulled away as long as there were no other units to trap you. This is nonsensical.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,978
    Cheaper infantry should beat hvy cav in sustained combat, but NOT on the mutual charge. Never.

    During the first 5-10 seconds shock cav should win the trade decisively, reflected by their cb. Then they should start losing the longer they stay in combat, as reflected by worse stats. That's the fundamental way shock cav operates in. If they trade down on a mutual charge vs gw infantry they are broken and dead on arrival.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 660
    Frook said:

    Saying that infantry should trade well against cavalry is such a garbage take that goes against all semblance of game balance. What these people are saying is basically that all infantry should be able to trade well into cavalry on the charge, making most expensive cavalry worthless in MP. As if infantry weren't strong enough in MP at the moment.

    I really hope CA is wise enough to ignore these people and actually fixes this but at this point I'm not holding my breath. Infantry should be heavily punished for taking a direct cavalry charge and those arguing against this are arguing for a game that they can win with no skill where position and formation of units does not matter. Stuff like this is actually killing the game. Half the units in the game are basically worthless because of this bug, other bugs, and the mass changes.

    If same cost heavy cavalry charges, from front, same cost heavy infantry, then the heavy infantry should win.This is how you have game balance and tactics.

    If you have two units, both costing 1000, one wins against another, and is also on top of that faster and deals more damage in shorter time, why would you ever use the slower unit? Cavalry should be used to flank or achieve local superiority, not to mindlessly charge frontally to whatever they come across and win just because they have a horse on their icon.

    If you actually cared about tactics, instead of this unrealistic fantasy of cavalry charge being be all and end all of strategy, you would understand that cavalry is worthwhile because of their mobility and burst of damage. Cavalry is meant to be used in hammer and anvil, or achieve local numerical superiority or assist units in the battlefield in rapid response. They are not meant to just charge into every infantry they come across and steam roll them regardless of price point.

    It used to be this way too, you could have random reiksguard charge into black orcs frontally and pull back, dealing essentially free damage to black orcs because they would get knocked back and couldn't fight back while you pulled away as long as there were no other units to trap you. This is nonsensical.
    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Frook said:

    Saying that infantry should trade well against cavalry is such a garbage take that goes against all semblance of game balance. What these people are saying is basically that all infantry should be able to trade well into cavalry on the charge, making most expensive cavalry worthless in MP. As if infantry weren't strong enough in MP at the moment.

    I really hope CA is wise enough to ignore these people and actually fixes this but at this point I'm not holding my breath. Infantry should be heavily punished for taking a direct cavalry charge and those arguing against this are arguing for a game that they can win with no skill where position and formation of units does not matter. Stuff like this is actually killing the game. Half the units in the game are basically worthless because of this bug, other bugs, and the mass changes.

    If same cost heavy cavalry charges, from front, same cost heavy infantry, then the heavy infantry should win.This is how you have game balance and tactics.

    If you have two units, both costing 1000, one wins against another, and is also on top of that faster and deals more damage in shorter time, why would you ever use the slower unit? Cavalry should be used to flank or achieve local superiority, not to mindlessly charge frontally to whatever they come across and win just because they have a horse on their icon.

    If you actually cared about tactics, instead of this unrealistic fantasy of cavalry charge being be all and end all of strategy, you would understand that cavalry is worthwhile because of their mobility and burst of damage. Cavalry is meant to be used in hammer and anvil, or achieve local numerical superiority or assist units in the battlefield in rapid response. They are not meant to just charge into every infantry they come across and steam roll them regardless of price point.

    It used to be this way too, you could have random reiksguard charge into black orcs frontally and pull back, dealing essentially free damage to black orcs because they would get knocked back and couldn't fight back while you pulled away as long as there were no other units to trap you. This is nonsensical.
    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).
    That's exactly how this should not go. Bracing and standing your ground should run counter against primitive YOLO charges from the front. If you are too lazy to position your cavalry for charges against flanks or backs, you should not be rewarded for it.

    No one uses cav in SP because ranged units are dominant and require very little effort to generate value. Just make the AI blob, then nuke the blob with ranged or magic.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    edited July 2021



    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).

    Except the tests showed that shock cavalry that costs more already wins against cheaper infantry from frontal charge.

    Your answer to that cavalry simply dealing free damage is just have cavalry of your own? Is this cavalryhammer? If you frontally charge cavalry into elite infantry, the cavalry should get stuck and die dealing decent damage in the process. If you don't want your cavalry to get stuck in heavy infantry, then don't charge them frontally. For example use your own infantry first to anvil the enemy infantry, then use cavalry's superior speed and high charge bonus to flank or charge from behind to deal high damage in a short period of time.

    Stop creatng hypotheticals we aren't discussing or making stuff up. I am referring to first clip in the video in OP, which begins by asking what's wrong with it.

    Now answer the question, what's wrong with 1100g non-shock cavalry with AP damage losing to 1050g AP damage infantry. Answer this question in any way that doesn't come down to "cavalry should win because it's cavalry". Video implies it's self-evident and doesn't even need an explanation. If it's so self-evident except that one of the units have a horse icon on them and other doesn't, then it should be easy to explain.


  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264

    Cheaper infantry should beat hvy cav in sustained combat, but NOT on the mutual charge. Never.

    During the first 5-10 seconds shock cav should win the trade decisively, reflected by their cb. Then they should start losing the longer they stay in combat, as reflected by worse stats. That's the fundamental way shock cav operates in. If they trade down on a mutual charge vs gw infantry they are broken and dead on arrival.

    Except this doesn't happen because the way the game works, damage snowballs, if cavalry inflicts heavy enough damage in charge then the infantry won't recover because the engagement doesn't last for 30 minutes. If heavy cavalry should inflict heavy damage to same price point (questing knights vs. bestigors, or wild riders vs. bestigors) or close enough (chaos knights vs. swordmasters) then it should have significantly reduced MD so they are guaranteed to lose that engagement if they stay. The other examples already show wild riders destroying cheaper infantry from frontal charge. Imagine the damage they do when actually used effectively and doing flanking charges or charging from back to already engaged infantry.

    The bug regarding guaranteed hits from counter-charging should be fixed and at that point it will probably alleviate any imbalances especially in regards to charge defence units doing better on counter-charge than bracing. Anything further, such as finding something wrong with questing knights losing against bestigors in a frontal charge, is simple fantasy of cavalryhammer and should not happen.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 660
    Frook said:



    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).

    Except the tests showed that shock cavalry that costs more already wins against cheaper infantry from frontal charge.

    Your answer to that cavalry simply dealing free damage is just have cavalry of your own? Is this cavalryhammer? If you frontally charge cavalry into elite infantry, the cavalry should get stuck and die dealing decent damage in the process. If you don't want your cavalry to get stuck in heavy infantry, then don't charge them frontally. For example use your own infantry first to anvil the enemy infantry, then use cavalry's superior speed and high charge bonus to flank or charge from behind to deal high damage in a short period of time.

    Stop creatng hypotheticals we aren't discussing or making stuff up. I am referring to first clip in the video in OP, which begins by asking what's wrong with it.

    Now answer the question, what's wrong with 1100g non-shock cavalry with AP damage losing to 1050g AP damage infantry. Answer this question in any way that doesn't come down to "cavalry should win because it's cavalry". Video implies it's self-evident and doesn't even need an explanation. If it's so self-evident except that one of the units have a horse icon on them and other doesn't, then it should be easy to explain.


    Cavalryhammer? You mean brining balanced builds in MP where you have multiple unit types? Yea this should be rewarded instead of mass infantry spam every game with artillery.

    The problem is the cavalry lose on the charge instead of prolonged combat. Cavalry should do more damage on the charge but lose if they are in sustained combat. The force and impact of getting charged by a Lancer on a horse would absolutely wreck a smaller unit, that's how physics works in real life. I know this is a game but still.

    P=mv

    Momentum = mass * velocity

    Higher mass at a higher speed = higher momentum aka it hits harder.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Frook said:



    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).

    Except the tests showed that shock cavalry that costs more already wins against cheaper infantry from frontal charge.

    Your answer to that cavalry simply dealing free damage is just have cavalry of your own? Is this cavalryhammer? If you frontally charge cavalry into elite infantry, the cavalry should get stuck and die dealing decent damage in the process. If you don't want your cavalry to get stuck in heavy infantry, then don't charge them frontally. For example use your own infantry first to anvil the enemy infantry, then use cavalry's superior speed and high charge bonus to flank or charge from behind to deal high damage in a short period of time.

    Stop creatng hypotheticals we aren't discussing or making stuff up. I am referring to first clip in the video in OP, which begins by asking what's wrong with it.

    Now answer the question, what's wrong with 1100g non-shock cavalry with AP damage losing to 1050g AP damage infantry. Answer this question in any way that doesn't come down to "cavalry should win because it's cavalry". Video implies it's self-evident and doesn't even need an explanation. If it's so self-evident except that one of the units have a horse icon on them and other doesn't, then it should be easy to explain.


    Cavalryhammer? You mean brining balanced builds in MP where you have multiple unit types? Yea this should be rewarded instead of mass infantry spam every game with artillery.

    The problem is the cavalry lose on the charge instead of prolonged combat. Cavalry should do more damage on the charge but lose if they are in sustained combat. The force and impact of getting charged by a Lancer on a horse would absolutely wreck a smaller unit, that's how physics works in real life. I know this is a game but still.

    P=mv

    Momentum = mass * velocity

    Higher mass at a higher speed = higher momentum aka it hits harder.
    If MP allowd brainless frontal charges on heavy infantry with guaranteed payoff for cavalry and little damage taken, that would be the opposite of balance because you'd just invalidate frontlines with a simple YOLO charge.

    We already had that back in the dark days of the infinite knockdown meta.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 660

    Frook said:



    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).

    Except the tests showed that shock cavalry that costs more already wins against cheaper infantry from frontal charge.

    Your answer to that cavalry simply dealing free damage is just have cavalry of your own? Is this cavalryhammer? If you frontally charge cavalry into elite infantry, the cavalry should get stuck and die dealing decent damage in the process. If you don't want your cavalry to get stuck in heavy infantry, then don't charge them frontally. For example use your own infantry first to anvil the enemy infantry, then use cavalry's superior speed and high charge bonus to flank or charge from behind to deal high damage in a short period of time.

    Stop creatng hypotheticals we aren't discussing or making stuff up. I am referring to first clip in the video in OP, which begins by asking what's wrong with it.

    Now answer the question, what's wrong with 1100g non-shock cavalry with AP damage losing to 1050g AP damage infantry. Answer this question in any way that doesn't come down to "cavalry should win because it's cavalry". Video implies it's self-evident and doesn't even need an explanation. If it's so self-evident except that one of the units have a horse icon on them and other doesn't, then it should be easy to explain.


    Cavalryhammer? You mean brining balanced builds in MP where you have multiple unit types? Yea this should be rewarded instead of mass infantry spam every game with artillery.

    The problem is the cavalry lose on the charge instead of prolonged combat. Cavalry should do more damage on the charge but lose if they are in sustained combat. The force and impact of getting charged by a Lancer on a horse would absolutely wreck a smaller unit, that's how physics works in real life. I know this is a game but still.

    P=mv

    Momentum = mass * velocity

    Higher mass at a higher speed = higher momentum aka it hits harder.
    If MP allowd brainless frontal charges on heavy infantry with guaranteed payoff for cavalry and little damage taken, that would be the opposite of balance because you'd just invalidate frontlines with a simple YOLO charge.

    We already had that back in the dark days of the infinite knockdown meta.
    Here is a partial list of units that GS can take to counter charge cavalry that try and frontal charge:

    Cavalry(many varieties)
    Trolls
    Grom
    Hag - also has mither, which slows
    Nasty skulkers
    Da rusty arrerz
    Orc archers(good AP)
    Chariots
    Giant spider
    Rogue idol
    Giant
    Big uns

    If your army does not include these units then you deserve to take massive charge damage from cavalry. Part of this game is bringing a balanced army that can handle different scenarios. If you are playing a cavalry faction and don't bring anti cav you deserve to lose the game.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    edited July 2021

    Frook said:



    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).

    Except the tests showed that shock cavalry that costs more already wins against cheaper infantry from frontal charge.

    Your answer to that cavalry simply dealing free damage is just have cavalry of your own? Is this cavalryhammer? If you frontally charge cavalry into elite infantry, the cavalry should get stuck and die dealing decent damage in the process. If you don't want your cavalry to get stuck in heavy infantry, then don't charge them frontally. For example use your own infantry first to anvil the enemy infantry, then use cavalry's superior speed and high charge bonus to flank or charge from behind to deal high damage in a short period of time.

    Stop creatng hypotheticals we aren't discussing or making stuff up. I am referring to first clip in the video in OP, which begins by asking what's wrong with it.

    Now answer the question, what's wrong with 1100g non-shock cavalry with AP damage losing to 1050g AP damage infantry. Answer this question in any way that doesn't come down to "cavalry should win because it's cavalry". Video implies it's self-evident and doesn't even need an explanation. If it's so self-evident except that one of the units have a horse icon on them and other doesn't, then it should be easy to explain.


    Cavalryhammer? You mean brining balanced builds in MP where you have multiple unit types? Yea this should be rewarded instead of mass infantry spam every game with artillery.

    The problem is the cavalry lose on the charge instead of prolonged combat. Cavalry should do more damage on the charge but lose if they are in sustained combat. The force and impact of getting charged by a Lancer on a horse would absolutely wreck a smaller unit, that's how physics works in real life. I know this is a game but still.

    P=mv

    Momentum = mass * velocity

    Higher mass at a higher speed = higher momentum aka it hits harder.
    Realism of physics now? Bestigors are as massive as those horses so that's moot. Moreover questing knights aren't even lance units, they have swords and they are melee cavalry not shock cavalry.

    I am not sure when you started playing this game, but it wasn't long enough that every game was revolving around cavalry or SEM sneaking in frontal charges against infantry, dealing free damage and pulling back and only counter was to have your own cavalry. Where every battle was decided on last few cavalry or SEMs cycle charging. No, I do not want that back. If heavy frontally charges heavy infantry, it should get bogged down and lose without assistance of any other units.

    Assistance of units helps cavalry more than it helps infantry, because cavalry has more speed and higher charge bonus, it deals more damage during its charge grace period. Existence of a balanced roster should mean that cavalry should not win frontally against infantry, because it's more easily and quickly assist engagements in the battlefield. If you see 1k gold elite heavy infantry, send your infantry against it, maybe even a cheaper one so that it cannot counter charge then charge your shock cavalry against their flank or rear. Now you'll deal very high damage to that infantry while your cavalry will take minimal damage.

    Similarly melee cavalry is able to charge and kill missile or artillery units, or respond to engagements taking place battlefield quickly while infantry will be generally bogged down on first engagement it takes.

    Here is a list of units that you can use to anvil infantry so you can flank them or charge them from rear:

    Any infantry with high MD or high armor
    Chaff infantry, usually with shields
    anti-infantry monster units
    monstrous infantry

    Further more you can use AP missiles, artillery or AoE magic as they are usually more effective against high model count, stationary units.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,978
    That's not true, cdvl negates the charge and you punish early charges with other units. Early charges are only free if you fail to respond.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 660
    Frook said:

    Frook said:



    If you see a cavalry unit charging directly into your front line of black orcs and you don't react by charging your own cavalry or monsters or shoot the cavalry with missiles then yea you deserve to take damage on your black orcs. This scenario is not free damage as you put it because your cavalry now get stuck every charge so you will lose 2-4 guaranteed every charge now.

    Cavalry has a lower health pool and model count than infantry, while also generally costing more. That's a pretty steep price to pay for mobility when they also get wrecked on the charge from infantry costing much less than them. It makes them not cost efficient units, and therefore not good in SP or MP.

    No one uses heavy cav in SP at all really because of how fragile they are and they are also weak in MP now. It didn't used to be this way and people used to take heavy cav all the time, but now it is better 9/10 times to take cheaper or light cav(except blood knights).

    Except the tests showed that shock cavalry that costs more already wins against cheaper infantry from frontal charge.

    Your answer to that cavalry simply dealing free damage is just have cavalry of your own? Is this cavalryhammer? If you frontally charge cavalry into elite infantry, the cavalry should get stuck and die dealing decent damage in the process. If you don't want your cavalry to get stuck in heavy infantry, then don't charge them frontally. For example use your own infantry first to anvil the enemy infantry, then use cavalry's superior speed and high charge bonus to flank or charge from behind to deal high damage in a short period of time.

    Stop creatng hypotheticals we aren't discussing or making stuff up. I am referring to first clip in the video in OP, which begins by asking what's wrong with it.

    Now answer the question, what's wrong with 1100g non-shock cavalry with AP damage losing to 1050g AP damage infantry. Answer this question in any way that doesn't come down to "cavalry should win because it's cavalry". Video implies it's self-evident and doesn't even need an explanation. If it's so self-evident except that one of the units have a horse icon on them and other doesn't, then it should be easy to explain.


    Cavalryhammer? You mean brining balanced builds in MP where you have multiple unit types? Yea this should be rewarded instead of mass infantry spam every game with artillery.

    The problem is the cavalry lose on the charge instead of prolonged combat. Cavalry should do more damage on the charge but lose if they are in sustained combat. The force and impact of getting charged by a Lancer on a horse would absolutely wreck a smaller unit, that's how physics works in real life. I know this is a game but still.

    P=mv

    Momentum = mass * velocity

    Higher mass at a higher speed = higher momentum aka it hits harder.
    Realism of physics now? Bestigors are as massive as those horses so that's moot. Moreover questing knights aren't even lance units, they have swords and they are melee cavalry not shock cavalry.

    I am not sure when you started playing this game, but it wasn't long enough that every game was revolving around cavalry or SEM sneaking in frontal charges against infantry, dealing free damage and pulling back and only counter was to have your own cavalry. No, I do not want that back. If heavy frontally charges heavy infantry, it should get bogged down and lose without assistance of any other units.

    Assistance of units helps cavalry more than it helps infantry, because cavalry has more speed and higher charge bonus, it deals more damage during its charge grace period. Existence of a balanced roster should mean that cavalry should not win frontally against infantry, because it's more easily and quickly assist engagements in the battlefield. If you see 1k gold elite heavy infantry, send your infantry against it, maybe even a cheaper one so that it cannot counter charge then charge your shock cavalry against their flank or rear. Now you'll deal very high damage to that infantry while your cavalry will take minimal damage.

    Similarly melee cavalry is able to charge and kill missile or artillery units, or respond to engagements taking place battlefield quickly while infantry will be generally bogged down on first engagement it takes.
    Lol you know nothing about me so you shouldn't assume because you are wrong. There were good parts of the mass changes but ultimately many units are not broken or worthless because of it.

    All you need to do to protect artillery is put cheap spears near them, which is what everyone does.

    What scenario should heavy cav be used in? Only hammering? Because you will be kite with skirmish units if you try that with an expensive cav unit.

    Maybe bestigors should be large units then not small if they are so big.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264

    That's not true, cdvl negates the charge and you punish early charges with other units. Early charges are only free if you fail to respond.

    Bracing back then was inconsistent at best. This is also not about BvL units which should already counter more expensive cavalry but rather heavy infantry vs. heavy cavalry of same price point. Reiksguard should not be able to get free damage against black orcs, bestigors, chosen and the like.

    Cavalry, except in rare cases where it's stated otherwise, shouldn't be a counter unit to heavy infantry. So it should not win against heavy infantry at same price point. Moreover, because of their mobility and higher charge bonus they are already effective even against heavy infantry when flanking or rear charging.

    I believe this perception that heavy cavalry should counter heavy infantry became a thing because of medieval total war or how it used to be in warhammer 2 before charge changes but it's a false and baseless one. Shock cavalry is good because it is mobile and inflicts burst damage. You wouldn't expect missile units to win against melee infantry in melee at same price point, why do you expect cavalry to do so? Cavalry's use is for flanking, rear charging, screening and establishing local superiority. These are all very hard to do with infantry because of their slower speed, higher model count and general vulnerability to missiles, artillery and magic.
This discussion has been closed.