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Unit Upkeep Rebalance

Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 1,289
I've made a mod for faction exclusive unit upkeep rebalance but I think unit upkeep rebalance could be settled across the board.

Elite cavalry is far too expensive which means you might as well just settle with mounted lancer militia for the entire campaign. This is something which I think could do with serious adjustments - potentially cutting from 400 to around 300 for example.

I also think that elite infantry is largely pointless because heroes are far more powerful than them. So I think they could be rebalanced so spear guards aren't the only most viable unit in the game.

Do you have any ideas on what units should be rebalanced?

Comments

  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,675
    I think it'd be easier to tackle down the power of heroes. If you look at Warhammer numbers, heroes in 3K absolutely BLAST them.
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 3,704
    edited July 21
    I know a buddy who recently released a mod that reduced both the unit cost and upkeep of higher tier units. Not sure if I should link that mod here since this isn't the mod discussion section.

  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 1,289
    Rewan said:

    I think it'd be easier to tackle down the power of heroes. If you look at Warhammer numbers, heroes in 3K absolutely BLAST them.

    I agree but thats a different topic really.

    @Misaka_Complex link it please!
  • Vin362Vin362 Registered Users Posts: 1,264
    edited July 21
    Rewan said:

    I think it'd be easier to tackle down the power of heroes. If you look at Warhammer numbers, heroes in 3K absolutely BLAST them.

    I've always suggested that lowing the health of generals would help stop them becoming killing machines sure you probably could still do it with a bit of micro but lower health would require you to pay more attention to your generals.

    As to the topic of the thread; I have always felt upkeep and construction costs along with number of turns it takes to construct or upgrade a building are not always worth the investment, so when it comes which units should have their upkeep looked at I'd have to say majority are probably either elite cavalry units as you mentioned or some faction unique units.
    Supporter of Shu-Han, I wish Total War Three Kingdoms had a Three Kingdoms start date, rider of Kislev, admiral of The Awakened and Elector Count of Shu-Han
  • Zilong_93Zilong_93 Registered Users Posts: 97
    This is why on North there is horse pastures so cavalry cost and upkeep become lower and make them extremely cheap. And this is why most north warlords like Big Dong, Yuan Shao, Cao Cao(but ofc he more middle...what ever) got their own faction heave cavalry, because they leave near those pastures...Gongsun Zan and Ma Teng also.

    And by who we play on South? Sun family and Yan Baihu...Sun having their own middle cavalry and they don't give a ****, because you can manipulate your economy with mercenaries...Yan Baihu bandit and...well did someone use cavalry on bandits?

    It's everyone personal decision, but I think with heavy cavalry about balance between money and their worth is ok...
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,675
    edited July 25
    The problem is that low tier cavalry is still very effective, and it's just much better to field 2 Militia Lancer than 1 Heavy Xiliang Cav... Basically the killing power is pretty much always there and you're mostly investing into defensive stats (melee evasion, armor, missile block chance)
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,504
    edited July 30
    Rewan said:

    The problem is that low tier cavalry is still very effective, and it's just much better to field 2 Militia Lancer than 1 Heavy Xiliang Cav... Basically the killing power is pretty much always there and you're mostly investing into defensive stats (melee evasion, armor, missile block chance)

    This is the main problem- for a game which offers 3-5 cavalry upgrades for most factions from the basic militia... the killing power of those cavalries are far to similar.

    The enhanced survivability of the upper tier cavalry costs way more than it is worth and is not really needed vs the AI while most human playersin head to head will stick with the most efficient infantry and ranged combos as those ultimately have far more durability and less risk than even the highest tier cavalry.

    Ideally the cavalry would be balanced like most other units in that low tier units are far less lethal to higher tier units but for the most part that is not how it works. There are couple of the heaviest infantry units that do take noticeably less damage from the lower tier cavalry charges but the AI rarely deploys them until late campaign and even then not in coherent armies- the cavalry can always isolate the weaker AI units then simply cycle charge led by heroes with huge HP pools to tank the damage and still rout the infantry that cost 4x as much.
    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
  • Vin362Vin362 Registered Users Posts: 1,264
    Ichon said:

    Rewan said:

    The problem is that low tier cavalry is still very effective, and it's just much better to field 2 Militia Lancer than 1 Heavy Xiliang Cav... Basically the killing power is pretty much always there and you're mostly investing into defensive stats (melee evasion, armor, missile block chance)

    This is the main problem- for a game which offers 3-5 cavalry upgrades for most factions from the basic militia... the killing power of those cavalries are far to similar.

    The enhanced survivability of the upper tier cavalry costs way more than it is worth and is not really needed vs the AI while most human playersin head to head will stick with the most efficient infantry and ranged combos as those ultimately have far more durability and less risk than even the highest tier cavalry.

    Ideally the cavalry would be balanced like most other units in that low tier units are far less lethal to higher tier units but for the most part that is not how it works. There are couple of the heaviest infantry units that do take noticeably less damage from the lower tier cavalry charges but the AI rarely deploys them until late campaign and even then not in coherent armies- the cavalry can always isolate the weaker AI units then simply cycle charge led by heroes with huge HP pools to tank the damage and still rout the infantry that cost 4x as much.
    I took a look at the unit roster for a Han faction without unique units and after subtracting the Northern Army units I counted about 6 (8 if you include the peasant raiders and raider cavalry and 10 with the Northern Army) I agree the A.I doesn't deploy enough units to warrant the added upkeep for higher tiered shock cavalry when mounted lancer militia or lance cavalry are fine.
    Supporter of Shu-Han, I wish Total War Three Kingdoms had a Three Kingdoms start date, rider of Kislev, admiral of The Awakened and Elector Count of Shu-Han
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,504
    Yes, the basic horse units are both too fast (making surviviability mostly meaningless) and hit too hard (big problem for upkeep to differentiate the tiers).

    Why spend anything more when charge damage is relatively the same, not to mention a good portion to the extra armour of the higher tier units leads to worse battle results due to the hugely lowered speeds that allow ranged units to hit far more often and do more damage rather than less because armour mitigation alone is not enough to do much vs ranged damage.
    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
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