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HellCannon - Unit punished more than solid snake

KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,916
Remember the days of double shot hellcannon,where an artillery piece required skill,nobody complained about and enjoyed it except some Sp players(even though chaos invasion was always a joke).

And then came Tomb kings patch note where they nerfed the hell out of this unit for no reason<Dmg,AOE DMG,AOE radius and Ammo nerf,for just a tiny bit more faster reload and accuracy and the removal of double shot.

Then it turned out the accuracy was worse then before then they fixed it and but 2 patches down in khardysupdate They nerfed accuracy...??
Meanwhile Other factions artillery kept getting buffed (Even Still you dont see them)and this unit got left out.

But you will say we do see hellcannon time to time,well yeah because dont have much option and have to compromise,and you never see them pay back their values.

PlagueClaw catapult and now even Casket of souls way out dps Hellcannon(even though chaos dwarf are supposed to have the best artillery).
Check this out:-

https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f=0&k=wh_pro04_chs_art_hellcannon_ror_0&m&r=0&v=4773075569211187819&amp;units=f=0&k=wh_main_chs_art_hellcannon&m&r=0&v=4773075569211187819&amp;units=f=0&k=wh2_main_skv_art_plagueclaw_catapult&m&r=0&v=4773075569211187819&amp;units=f=0&k=wh2_main_skv_art_warp_lightning_cannon&m&r=0&v=4773075569211187819&amp;units=f=0&k=wh2_dlc09_tmb_art_casket_of_souls_0&m&r=0&v=4773075569211187819&amp;units=f=0&k=wh2_dlc09_tmb_art_screaming_skull_catapult_0&m&r=0&v=4773075569211187819


The Most important stat on artillery(Unless geared towards large units like warp lightning and cannons)AOE damage radius and AOE damage.
If you compare that hellcannon is really pathetic compared to them both casket and plagueclaw have almost same stats but Hellcannon only gets one shot meanwhile plagueclaw gets 3 shots and casket has 7 projectiles.
Even if account for reload time reduction both still way outdps hellcannon,initial project damage isn't that relevant.

And from accuracy testing hellcannon is only slightly more accurate compared to them not by much.

and all of them are way more risk compared to cannons and trebuchet and bolt thrower not only they can kill them easily and are cheaper and can do just as much as work killing more valuable large targets.

Solution:- Just revert its damage nerf(Double shot fix was more than enough)
Increase Detonation Radius/AOE from 7 to 9 which was it was originally .
AOE AP Damage from 90 to 120(original value).
AOE base damage from 30 to 40.
Keep the ammo nerf and double shot/accuracy nerf where it is now.
Optional :- 100 Cost


Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,187
    i thought hellcannons were great? much more durable than other artillery; very serious damage and good targeting. i see them all the time.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,202
    hellcannon is better than ever, i use it pretty much every chaos game, its great.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,643
    Unless they broke it this patch, they should perform well
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  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    hellcannon is ok, still if they ever decide to buff chaos i think hellcannon would be a really interesting place to focus. would be unique to have just 1 good ranged piece in a strong melee faction, and would have the same impact free vanguard had for WE; never knowing if you're playing a defensive or rush army makes a faction much harder to build against
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 630
    eumaies said:

    i thought hellcannons were great? much more durable than other artillery; very serious damage and good targeting. i see them all the time.

    Can confirm. Last game against chaos for me sniped my Death caster on elven steed despite dodging maneuvers (with the help of miscasts and missile cav).
    Can't name a piece of artillery with better precision, especially with this damage output.
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • 3lfu3g03lfu3g0 Registered Users Posts: 12
    Green0 said:

    Hellcannon is actually insane now, it is impossible to dodge and people bring it even vs WE which should be a bad MU for it.

    The RoR actually has too much ammo and could use a nerf in that regard.

    you cannot use cannons, they have spells don"t know they are called, and they destroy your cannon from far away unfortunatelly :/
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,916
    eumaies said:

    i thought hellcannons were great? much more durable than other artillery; very serious damage and good targeting. i see them all the time.

    Its the least durable artillery there and it has good damage but not for its cost,plagueclaw and casket now way outdps it.

    only has marginally better targeting.

    Not gonna take note of some of our elven friends here who claim hellcannon is good/insane now(when no changes have happened to it except nerfs).they dont play chaos.

    I have tested thoroughly casket and plagueclaw are way better vs infantry and regardless all three artillery are risky for 1000++ cost when other faction get job done in 700-800 gold,they dont pay for themselves especially hellcannon

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    God unit afaic.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 283
    I think we can close this thread as clearly hell cannon is considered strong by just about anyone, including strong tournament players so not much else to see here really.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,916
    Damn This forum has really gone downhill,with eleven fanboys pushing their agenda,overselling other faction units and underselling theirs,spamming disagree button.
    Now they have the excuse one of their fanboys Lotus_moon has the tournament player tag.

  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 757

    Damn This forum has really gone downhill,with eleven fanboys pushing their agenda,overselling other faction units and underselling theirs,spamming disagree button.
    Now they have the excuse one of their fanboys Lotus_moon has the tournament player tag.

    Ur just mad u can't use the hellcannon well
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 18,315

    Damn This forum has really gone downhill,with eleven fanboys pushing their agenda,overselling other faction units and underselling theirs,spamming disagree button.
    Now they have the excuse one of their fanboys Lotus_moon has the tournament player tag.

    Ur just mad u can't use the hellcannon well
    eh this should be one of the easiest arty to use though,

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • zer0izer0i Registered Users Posts: 345
    The renown version is one of the better artillery pieces the normal variant isn't very good.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 283

    Damn This forum has really gone downhill,with eleven fanboys pushing their agenda,overselling other faction units and underselling theirs,spamming disagree button.
    Now they have the excuse one of their fanboys Lotus_moon has the tournament player tag.

    Have some basic self awareness son. If everyone disagrees with you, perhaps it is you and not EVERYONE?

    Also, what is "eleven fanboys", sounds like a gay movie or something.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,187
    edited July 2021
    I agree that with three fireballs to kill (two overcast) it’s not an extremely durable piece relative to a cheaper cannon, but it’s still 100% effective until shut down, indirect fire, and very accurate including Vs mages. So overall I don’t think it lacks durability.

    The ror with ammo is strong. Maybe casket is better but short range plague catapult is easier to snipe and not as good a unit except that it’s more expendable.

    I see competitive hellcannons quite a lot. May not be the best artillery piece but for a strong rushing faction the ability to flip the script is quite useful.
    Post edited by eumaies on
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,522

    eumaies said:

    i thought hellcannons were great? much more durable than other artillery; very serious damage and good targeting. i see them all the time.

    Its the least durable artillery there and it has good damage but not for its cost,plagueclaw and casket now way outdps it.

    only has marginally better targeting.

    Not gonna take note of some of our elven friends here who claim hellcannon is good/insane now(when no changes have happened to it except nerfs).they dont play chaos.

    I have tested thoroughly casket and plagueclaw are way better vs infantry and regardless all three artillery are risky for 1000++ cost when other faction get job done in 700-800 gold,they dont pay for themselves especially hellcannon
    lol anyone who says its good (literally everyone in this thread says its good) is an elffanboi huh
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 910
    Hell Cannon still has holming and is unbreakable it’s still good.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,202
    edited July 2021

    Damn This forum has really gone downhill,with eleven fanboys pushing their agenda,overselling other faction units and underselling theirs,spamming disagree button.
    Now they have the excuse one of their fanboys Lotus_moon has the tournament player tag.

    I played tournaments and won them way back in warhammer 1 even before WE dlc dropped so not sure i have the tag only now according to you...Its a really strong but balanced piece of arty, i use it vs the best people out there and can constantly gain value, perhaps stop by my stream and have a look, or just look at any history i kinda play at least few chaos games with hellcannon each stream coz its a faction i really like using and hellcannon is my 2nd fav unit in it, its not hard to protect and screen from spells in a roster like chaos, i do mainly use the ROR as i think its best value.

    Not too sure why you think its bad, you havend made an argument saying why you think its bad other than it doesn't shoot twice anymore (at that point was OP). I got to say i definitely see hellcannon more than both plage claws and casket, but other 2 are also good arty pieces for sure.

    Heck if you like im happy to even have few games with you on stream while i use hellcannon and you can show me why you think its such a bad unit while i will try show you why i think it has a place in some chaos builds.

    I would probably only not use it vs VC at this stage.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Some like it vs vc too even, at least last patch.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,916
    All right i tested again since I trust zero and he said they are fine.Since my tests were done just one time

    So tested again with different variety and evnironment and maps.

    vs blobs vs single inantry unit vs large.

    And hellcannon is actually good vs units if they dont do spaghetti lines,boxy formations.

    and re-test on casket,cannons,trebuctet...etc and the damage they did varied too much from different tests on glacial lake enemy unis were same and even the formation,the most varied peromance was from casket of souls.

    So i guess hellcannons are on par with other artillery units,although trebs actually tuned out to be most cost effecitive arty unit(what a turn around for this unit )

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    What makes hellcannon unique is the homing vs opponents that dodge, as well as the versatility. It doesn't only do well vs units, it's also a homing fireball vs monsters and flying characters if you want to use it as such whereas casket only hits ground.

    For the ror, the strong points are homing, versatility and also ammo. If you engage in a skirmish fight where you support with hc while opponent support with other arty, then your oppnent is playing a losing game because he can't dodge while you can, and you have more ammo to "waste" on winning the skirmish.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,202

    All right i tested again since I trust zero and he said they are fine.Since my tests were done just one time

    So tested again with different variety and evnironment and maps.

    vs blobs vs single inantry unit vs large.

    And hellcannon is actually good vs units if they dont do spaghetti lines,boxy formations.

    and re-test on casket,cannons,trebuctet...etc and the damage they did varied too much from different tests on glacial lake enemy unis were same and even the formation,the most varied peromance was from casket of souls.

    So i guess hellcannons are on par with other artillery units,although trebs actually tuned out to be most cost effecitive arty unit(what a turn around for this unit )

    so your tests show they perform fine vs non dodging opponent, now the other arty will do way worse vs someone who dodges unlike the hellcannon, that is its real apeal.
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