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How come Malekith burns were never healed?

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  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    It is not at all what I expected before I passed through the Flame. It is not entirely a comfortable thing to spend your life in the presence of a living god. More I am not allowed to say.
    Finubar.

    Is it a blessing? Or just the presence of Asuryan? Could it be that what Teclis felt was indeed the doom of Asuryan, instead of his blessing? According to the End Times, yes. And according to some ambiguous hints, too.

    Malekith, for example, for first thought that because he had survived the Flames he could be the Chosen One of Asuryan. However, after a battle where the Phoenix Guard inflicts him wounds with the same Asuryan magic, he realises that he was doomed, not blessed.
    But that’s from the point of view of mortals. Asuryan could have planned all of that to strengthen Malekith and prepare him for the final battles against Chaos, which was always his destiny, as he saw through the Circlet of Iron.

    Not white and black in this plot, despite what the Asur would like, that’s for sure.

    It is a blessing.

    Finubar laughed. ‘I do not do the testing myself, Prince Tyrion. The priests and the mages do it. My part of the process is simply to look at you and recommend a course of action. It is one of the gifts of the Phoenix King. I can see when certain elves are of... consequence. I can tell for example that you are very strongly of the Blood of Aenarion and I will need to send you to the seers. I suspect the same will prove true of your twin.’
    Tyrion felt some unease, facing the tranquil gaze of the Phoenix King. Once more he got that sense of remoteness, but it was of a different type. Finubar seemed unaware of the fact that he might well be condemning Tyrion and his brother to death. Or perhaps he simply did not care.
    Was it passing through the flame that had done this, Tyrion wondered, or was it simply the responsibility of kingship?
    ‘May I ask how you can tell, sire?’
    ‘You may ask – but I am damned if I can tell you.’ Finubar laughed and the simple sea captain was back. ‘I just know, or rather the part of me that was touched by the flame knows and it deigns to communicate its knowledge to me. I can see that there is something about you that is different from others. I could tell you were of the Blood. It was the same in the old days when I was a captain on my father’s ships. I could tell when a storm would be a bad one or whether the wind was about to change suddenly.’

    From Broken Realms: Mortathi:

    Like a lighthouse amidst a raging ocean, the Lantern called forth spirits that had lingered in torment within the Dark Prince for countless centuries. They surged to freedom in their multitudes. Most were dull, ragged things, flickering with the merest traces of potential. These Morathi brushed aside dismissively. She sought those souls which blazed like stars, undiminished by the aeons they had spent in torturous bondage: the souls of ancient kings of the aelven race, who had, in another world, ruled over an empire unrivalled in its beauty and grace.
    Even now they bore a flicker of divinity. Within each burned the ember of a sacred flame, undimmed by the weight of ages. As these radiant souls reached out to her, Morathi felt a flood of stirring emotion. Some of these beings she had known, in a life long lost to her. Some she had hated. Some she had feared. One amongst them, she had even loved.
    Memories both bitter and sweet swirled in her mind. The pang of her lonely existence briefly ached at her, but only for an instant; Morathi smothered that weakness, turned her heart to iron. She had come here for a single purpose, and no mortal emotion would intervene. Her body became that of a writhing serpent, formed from the deepest shadows. She seized the nearest of the king-souls in her coils and latched onto it with night-black fangs. Morathi drank deep, draining every drop of its potent power, leaving nothing but a husk of ash behind. Then, she snatched another and another, and each met the same doom as the first. Morathi screamed in triumph as she felt herself swelling with divine might.
    Horrified, the king-souls tried to escape the Shadow Queen’s grasp, but her grasping coils would not relent. Still, they possessed formidable power, and took mystical forms of their own to deny their betrayer. Some transformed into flame winged eagles, swooping down to rake Morathi’s eyes. Others summoned spears and blades of sunlight, or became waves of azure magic that struck at the Shadow Queen’s serpentine form.
    Yet with every one of their number consumed, Morathi grew mightier. One by one the king-souls were devoured, until only a single radiant spirit remained – perhaps the most powerful of all. On the threshold of her ascension, Morathi hesitated. This being she had once shared a closeness with that her cruel heart had never experienced before or since.
    It was a moment of weakness that would cost her dearly. The kingsoul – filled with rage at the slaughter of its kin – became a sword of fire and blood, a blazing brand that hewed straight through Morathi’s soul, sundering the very core of her being. The Shadow Queen reeled and screeched in agony, black ichor pouring from the terrible wound. As Morathi fell into darkness, cleaved in twain, the bloated body of Slaanesh began to convulse. A chorus of demented groans issued from the captive god’s thousand mouths, followed by a flood of glittering drool. This viscous torrent coalesced into a shimmering, protean shape that raced after the retreating Shadow Queen…
    Yeah, I’ve seen the blessing of Asuryan upon Morvael when he entered the Flame with no wards...

    Obviously, Finubar is going to say that he is blessed by Asuryan.
    But we don’t know for sure if it is a blessing, just a touching, or even a doom. And this was done this way on purpose to create more rivalry between fans.

    The only fact we know is that no elf apart of Aenarion and Malekith has entered the Flame and survived.

    PS: since you’re so loyal to Imrik and Caledor, you should turn against the traitors too, since your master did it when he saw this truth.
    Finubar ends up becoming one of the better Phoenix Kings and up until End Times, had no indication or doubts that he was chosen by Asuryan. That's about 60% of this controversy, how it threw the entire institution of the Phoenix King under the bus as a "curse" when the majority of them were capable leaders whose deaths weren't any worse than any other in Warhammer.

    This entire controversy ends with Morvael, the only known of those auto proclaimed “Phoenix Kings” who dared to enter the Flame with no wards.
    Here is where you can see what happens to these imposters when they do what Aenarion and Malekith did.

    Much before the End Times, it was explicit in the lore that every Phoenix King after Aenarion had cheated the rite. That includes Finubar. So, sorry but no. This isn’t an End Times thing as you claim (or you would like).
    The cheating and the curse were both explicit and hinted many times during decades before what was a confirmation of what we already knew.
    It’s just that the truth pains, but it was very obvious since the first time what was going on.

    Don’t worry, you can be still worthy of the one true King of the elves... there is always room for soldiers... or slaves!
    You of course realise that BEFORE End Times, then Malekith would have suffered the EXACT same fate as Morvael, right? The story up until End Times was that Malekith was indeed unworthy of Aenarion's legacy, and it was only Malekith's supernatural willpower that allowed him to throw himself out of the fire and actually stay alive...
    We will never know, because he didn’t do it. Maybe he would have been reborn... AS HE DID IN THE END TIMES.

    And Nemo, if you can’t accept the Phoenix Kings cheated even when the HE codex says so, it’s time to end this conversation here and now. Won’t waste more time with someone who is still denying the truth.

    Funnily enough, one would think that after 6-7 years even an Asur fanboy could accept it. I am happy to see you’re still so enraged as in those times.

    ALL HAIL MALEKITH, THE ONE TRUE KING!
    Show me where in the High Elf codex, because it's still stated that Phoenix Kings are all still judged.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    The ‘cheating’ was always explicit (though the HE would say it was only ever intended to be a symbolic reenactment), but I’m fairly sure the curse was new to ET. I remember considering it really dumb when ET came out and I’ve generally always leaned to the DE side of the argument.

    That said, not including Aenarion and Finubar most of the Phoenix kings came to fairly inglorious ends:

    2 suicides
    2 murdered by dark elves
    1 killed by his own bodyguards for trying to draw the Sword of Khaine
    1 killed by the Dwarfs (who were allies at the start of his reign) having started a particularly stupid war against them for particularly stupid reasons.

    Only 3 of 9 died peacefully.

    But this was more played up as due a lot of them being chosen for fairly dumb reasons or the ones chosen for being warriors when that was needed being over impetuous rather than a supernatural curse.

    Most Dark Elves are assassinated or outright murderer but yet the onus is on the Phoenix Kings for some reason for having "ignoble" deaths.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,718

    It is not at all what I expected before I passed through the Flame. It is not entirely a comfortable thing to spend your life in the presence of a living god. More I am not allowed to say.
    Finubar.

    Is it a blessing? Or just the presence of Asuryan? Could it be that what Teclis felt was indeed the doom of Asuryan, instead of his blessing? According to the End Times, yes. And according to some ambiguous hints, too.

    Malekith, for example, for first thought that because he had survived the Flames he could be the Chosen One of Asuryan. However, after a battle where the Phoenix Guard inflicts him wounds with the same Asuryan magic, he realises that he was doomed, not blessed.
    But that’s from the point of view of mortals. Asuryan could have planned all of that to strengthen Malekith and prepare him for the final battles against Chaos, which was always his destiny, as he saw through the Circlet of Iron.

    Not white and black in this plot, despite what the Asur would like, that’s for sure.

    It is a blessing.

    Finubar laughed. ‘I do not do the testing myself, Prince Tyrion. The priests and the mages do it. My part of the process is simply to look at you and recommend a course of action. It is one of the gifts of the Phoenix King. I can see when certain elves are of... consequence. I can tell for example that you are very strongly of the Blood of Aenarion and I will need to send you to the seers. I suspect the same will prove true of your twin.’
    Tyrion felt some unease, facing the tranquil gaze of the Phoenix King. Once more he got that sense of remoteness, but it was of a different type. Finubar seemed unaware of the fact that he might well be condemning Tyrion and his brother to death. Or perhaps he simply did not care.
    Was it passing through the flame that had done this, Tyrion wondered, or was it simply the responsibility of kingship?
    ‘May I ask how you can tell, sire?’
    ‘You may ask – but I am damned if I can tell you.’ Finubar laughed and the simple sea captain was back. ‘I just know, or rather the part of me that was touched by the flame knows and it deigns to communicate its knowledge to me. I can see that there is something about you that is different from others. I could tell you were of the Blood. It was the same in the old days when I was a captain on my father’s ships. I could tell when a storm would be a bad one or whether the wind was about to change suddenly.’

    From Broken Realms: Mortathi:

    Like a lighthouse amidst a raging ocean, the Lantern called forth spirits that had lingered in torment within the Dark Prince for countless centuries. They surged to freedom in their multitudes. Most were dull, ragged things, flickering with the merest traces of potential. These Morathi brushed aside dismissively. She sought those souls which blazed like stars, undiminished by the aeons they had spent in torturous bondage: the souls of ancient kings of the aelven race, who had, in another world, ruled over an empire unrivalled in its beauty and grace.
    Even now they bore a flicker of divinity. Within each burned the ember of a sacred flame, undimmed by the weight of ages. As these radiant souls reached out to her, Morathi felt a flood of stirring emotion. Some of these beings she had known, in a life long lost to her. Some she had hated. Some she had feared. One amongst them, she had even loved.
    Memories both bitter and sweet swirled in her mind. The pang of her lonely existence briefly ached at her, but only for an instant; Morathi smothered that weakness, turned her heart to iron. She had come here for a single purpose, and no mortal emotion would intervene. Her body became that of a writhing serpent, formed from the deepest shadows. She seized the nearest of the king-souls in her coils and latched onto it with night-black fangs. Morathi drank deep, draining every drop of its potent power, leaving nothing but a husk of ash behind. Then, she snatched another and another, and each met the same doom as the first. Morathi screamed in triumph as she felt herself swelling with divine might.
    Horrified, the king-souls tried to escape the Shadow Queen’s grasp, but her grasping coils would not relent. Still, they possessed formidable power, and took mystical forms of their own to deny their betrayer. Some transformed into flame winged eagles, swooping down to rake Morathi’s eyes. Others summoned spears and blades of sunlight, or became waves of azure magic that struck at the Shadow Queen’s serpentine form.
    Yet with every one of their number consumed, Morathi grew mightier. One by one the king-souls were devoured, until only a single radiant spirit remained – perhaps the most powerful of all. On the threshold of her ascension, Morathi hesitated. This being she had once shared a closeness with that her cruel heart had never experienced before or since.
    It was a moment of weakness that would cost her dearly. The kingsoul – filled with rage at the slaughter of its kin – became a sword of fire and blood, a blazing brand that hewed straight through Morathi’s soul, sundering the very core of her being. The Shadow Queen reeled and screeched in agony, black ichor pouring from the terrible wound. As Morathi fell into darkness, cleaved in twain, the bloated body of Slaanesh began to convulse. A chorus of demented groans issued from the captive god’s thousand mouths, followed by a flood of glittering drool. This viscous torrent coalesced into a shimmering, protean shape that raced after the retreating Shadow Queen…
    Yeah, I’ve seen the blessing of Asuryan upon Morvael when he entered the Flame with no wards...

    Obviously, Finubar is going to say that he is blessed by Asuryan.
    But we don’t know for sure if it is a blessing, just a touching, or even a doom. And this was done this way on purpose to create more rivalry between fans.

    The only fact we know is that no elf apart of Aenarion and Malekith has entered the Flame and survived.

    PS: since you’re so loyal to Imrik and Caledor, you should turn against the traitors too, since your master did it when he saw this truth.
    Finubar ends up becoming one of the better Phoenix Kings and up until End Times, had no indication or doubts that he was chosen by Asuryan. That's about 60% of this controversy, how it threw the entire institution of the Phoenix King under the bus as a "curse" when the majority of them were capable leaders whose deaths weren't any worse than any other in Warhammer.

    This entire controversy ends with Morvael, the only known of those auto proclaimed “Phoenix Kings” who dared to enter the Flame with no wards.
    Here is where you can see what happens to these imposters when they do what Aenarion and Malekith did.

    Much before the End Times, it was explicit in the lore that every Phoenix King after Aenarion had cheated the rite. That includes Finubar. So, sorry but no. This isn’t an End Times thing as you claim (or you would like).
    The cheating and the curse were both explicit and hinted many times during decades before what was a confirmation of what we already knew.
    It’s just that the truth pains, but it was very obvious since the first time what was going on.

    Don’t worry, you can be still worthy of the one true King of the elves... there is always room for soldiers... or slaves!
    You of course realise that BEFORE End Times, then Malekith would have suffered the EXACT same fate as Morvael, right? The story up until End Times was that Malekith was indeed unworthy of Aenarion's legacy, and it was only Malekith's supernatural willpower that allowed him to throw himself out of the fire and actually stay alive...
    We will never know, because he didn’t do it. Maybe he would have been reborn... AS HE DID IN THE END TIMES.

    And Nemo, if you can’t accept the Phoenix Kings cheated even when the HE codex says so, it’s time to end this conversation here and now. Won’t waste more time with someone who is still denying the truth.

    Funnily enough, one would think that after 6-7 years even an Asur fanboy could accept it. I am happy to see you’re still so enraged as in those times.

    ALL HAIL MALEKITH, THE ONE TRUE KING!
    Again, no he wouldn't because Malekith DID NOT wish to die, and as such he would never have been able to go through the flame..... The ENTIRE theme of Malekith hinges on the fact that he is not able to make the one sacrifice he is needed to make to attain the rank he yearns for...

    The End Times was an extremely horribly written piece of fiction exactly because of the lack of attention and disregard for narrative themes and established ambiguity...
  • Lord_ZarkovLord_Zarkov Registered Users Posts: 380

    The ‘cheating’ was always explicit (though the HE would say it was only ever intended to be a symbolic reenactment), but I’m fairly sure the curse was new to ET. I remember considering it really dumb when ET came out and I’ve generally always leaned to the DE side of the argument.

    That said, not including Aenarion and Finubar most of the Phoenix kings came to fairly inglorious ends:

    2 suicides
    2 murdered by dark elves
    1 killed by his own bodyguards for trying to draw the Sword of Khaine
    1 killed by the Dwarfs (who were allies at the start of his reign) having started a particularly stupid war against them for particularly stupid reasons.

    Only 3 of 9 died peacefully.

    But this was more played up as due a lot of them being chosen for fairly dumb reasons or the ones chosen for being warriors when that was needed being over impetuous rather than a supernatural curse.

    Most Dark Elves are assassinated or outright murderer but yet the onus is on the Phoenix Kings for some reason for having "ignoble" deaths.
    Well yeah, because Dark Elf society is actively terrible and deliberately set up to oppress everyone under Malekith. He has however managed to stay on top of his nation of backstabbers for thousands of years.

    The Phoenix King is the ruler of the richest and generally most secure nation on the planet with divine blessing to protect their people. They’re also selected in a process that’s supposed to (although it often fails in practice) pick the best and most stable ruler.
    They should not be dying such stupid deaths in such a high ratio.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    The ‘cheating’ was always explicit (though the HE would say it was only ever intended to be a symbolic reenactment), but I’m fairly sure the curse was new to ET. I remember considering it really dumb when ET came out and I’ve generally always leaned to the DE side of the argument.

    That said, not including Aenarion and Finubar most of the Phoenix kings came to fairly inglorious ends:

    2 suicides
    2 murdered by dark elves
    1 killed by his own bodyguards for trying to draw the Sword of Khaine
    1 killed by the Dwarfs (who were allies at the start of his reign) having started a particularly stupid war against them for particularly stupid reasons.

    Only 3 of 9 died peacefully.

    But this was more played up as due a lot of them being chosen for fairly dumb reasons or the ones chosen for being warriors when that was needed being over impetuous rather than a supernatural curse.

    Most Dark Elves are assassinated or outright murderer but yet the onus is on the Phoenix Kings for some reason for having "ignoble" deaths.
    Well yeah, because Dark Elf society is actively terrible and deliberately set up to oppress everyone under Malekith. He has however managed to stay on top of his nation of backstabbers for thousands of years.

    The Phoenix King is the ruler of the richest and generally most secure nation on the planet with divine blessing to protect their people. They’re also selected in a process that’s supposed to (although it often fails in practice) pick the best and most stable ruler.
    They should not be dying such stupid deaths in such a high ratio.
    Aenarion died from wounds he gained in battle; if Asuryan's blessing is meant to forestall death or injury, then was Aenarion himself unworthy?
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698

    It is not at all what I expected before I passed through the Flame. It is not entirely a comfortable thing to spend your life in the presence of a living god. More I am not allowed to say.
    Finubar.

    Is it a blessing? Or just the presence of Asuryan? Could it be that what Teclis felt was indeed the doom of Asuryan, instead of his blessing? According to the End Times, yes. And according to some ambiguous hints, too.

    Malekith, for example, for first thought that because he had survived the Flames he could be the Chosen One of Asuryan. However, after a battle where the Phoenix Guard inflicts him wounds with the same Asuryan magic, he realises that he was doomed, not blessed.
    But that’s from the point of view of mortals. Asuryan could have planned all of that to strengthen Malekith and prepare him for the final battles against Chaos, which was always his destiny, as he saw through the Circlet of Iron.

    Not white and black in this plot, despite what the Asur would like, that’s for sure.

    It is a blessing.

    Finubar laughed. ‘I do not do the testing myself, Prince Tyrion. The priests and the mages do it. My part of the process is simply to look at you and recommend a course of action. It is one of the gifts of the Phoenix King. I can see when certain elves are of... consequence. I can tell for example that you are very strongly of the Blood of Aenarion and I will need to send you to the seers. I suspect the same will prove true of your twin.’
    Tyrion felt some unease, facing the tranquil gaze of the Phoenix King. Once more he got that sense of remoteness, but it was of a different type. Finubar seemed unaware of the fact that he might well be condemning Tyrion and his brother to death. Or perhaps he simply did not care.
    Was it passing through the flame that had done this, Tyrion wondered, or was it simply the responsibility of kingship?
    ‘May I ask how you can tell, sire?’
    ‘You may ask – but I am damned if I can tell you.’ Finubar laughed and the simple sea captain was back. ‘I just know, or rather the part of me that was touched by the flame knows and it deigns to communicate its knowledge to me. I can see that there is something about you that is different from others. I could tell you were of the Blood. It was the same in the old days when I was a captain on my father’s ships. I could tell when a storm would be a bad one or whether the wind was about to change suddenly.’

    From Broken Realms: Mortathi:

    Like a lighthouse amidst a raging ocean, the Lantern called forth spirits that had lingered in torment within the Dark Prince for countless centuries. They surged to freedom in their multitudes. Most were dull, ragged things, flickering with the merest traces of potential. These Morathi brushed aside dismissively. She sought those souls which blazed like stars, undiminished by the aeons they had spent in torturous bondage: the souls of ancient kings of the aelven race, who had, in another world, ruled over an empire unrivalled in its beauty and grace.
    Even now they bore a flicker of divinity. Within each burned the ember of a sacred flame, undimmed by the weight of ages. As these radiant souls reached out to her, Morathi felt a flood of stirring emotion. Some of these beings she had known, in a life long lost to her. Some she had hated. Some she had feared. One amongst them, she had even loved.
    Memories both bitter and sweet swirled in her mind. The pang of her lonely existence briefly ached at her, but only for an instant; Morathi smothered that weakness, turned her heart to iron. She had come here for a single purpose, and no mortal emotion would intervene. Her body became that of a writhing serpent, formed from the deepest shadows. She seized the nearest of the king-souls in her coils and latched onto it with night-black fangs. Morathi drank deep, draining every drop of its potent power, leaving nothing but a husk of ash behind. Then, she snatched another and another, and each met the same doom as the first. Morathi screamed in triumph as she felt herself swelling with divine might.
    Horrified, the king-souls tried to escape the Shadow Queen’s grasp, but her grasping coils would not relent. Still, they possessed formidable power, and took mystical forms of their own to deny their betrayer. Some transformed into flame winged eagles, swooping down to rake Morathi’s eyes. Others summoned spears and blades of sunlight, or became waves of azure magic that struck at the Shadow Queen’s serpentine form.
    Yet with every one of their number consumed, Morathi grew mightier. One by one the king-souls were devoured, until only a single radiant spirit remained – perhaps the most powerful of all. On the threshold of her ascension, Morathi hesitated. This being she had once shared a closeness with that her cruel heart had never experienced before or since.
    It was a moment of weakness that would cost her dearly. The kingsoul – filled with rage at the slaughter of its kin – became a sword of fire and blood, a blazing brand that hewed straight through Morathi’s soul, sundering the very core of her being. The Shadow Queen reeled and screeched in agony, black ichor pouring from the terrible wound. As Morathi fell into darkness, cleaved in twain, the bloated body of Slaanesh began to convulse. A chorus of demented groans issued from the captive god’s thousand mouths, followed by a flood of glittering drool. This viscous torrent coalesced into a shimmering, protean shape that raced after the retreating Shadow Queen…
    Yeah, I’ve seen the blessing of Asuryan upon Morvael when he entered the Flame with no wards...

    Obviously, Finubar is going to say that he is blessed by Asuryan.
    But we don’t know for sure if it is a blessing, just a touching, or even a doom. And this was done this way on purpose to create more rivalry between fans.

    The only fact we know is that no elf apart of Aenarion and Malekith has entered the Flame and survived.

    PS: since you’re so loyal to Imrik and Caledor, you should turn against the traitors too, since your master did it when he saw this truth.
    Finubar ends up becoming one of the better Phoenix Kings and up until End Times, had no indication or doubts that he was chosen by Asuryan. That's about 60% of this controversy, how it threw the entire institution of the Phoenix King under the bus as a "curse" when the majority of them were capable leaders whose deaths weren't any worse than any other in Warhammer.

    This entire controversy ends with Morvael, the only known of those auto proclaimed “Phoenix Kings” who dared to enter the Flame with no wards.
    Here is where you can see what happens to these imposters when they do what Aenarion and Malekith did.

    Much before the End Times, it was explicit in the lore that every Phoenix King after Aenarion had cheated the rite. That includes Finubar. So, sorry but no. This isn’t an End Times thing as you claim (or you would like).
    The cheating and the curse were both explicit and hinted many times during decades before what was a confirmation of what we already knew.
    It’s just that the truth pains, but it was very obvious since the first time what was going on.

    Don’t worry, you can be still worthy of the one true King of the elves... there is always room for soldiers... or slaves!
    You of course realise that BEFORE End Times, then Malekith would have suffered the EXACT same fate as Morvael, right? The story up until End Times was that Malekith was indeed unworthy of Aenarion's legacy, and it was only Malekith's supernatural willpower that allowed him to throw himself out of the fire and actually stay alive...
    We will never know, because he didn’t do it. Maybe he would have been reborn... AS HE DID IN THE END TIMES.

    And Nemo, if you can’t accept the Phoenix Kings cheated even when the HE codex says so, it’s time to end this conversation here and now. Won’t waste more time with someone who is still denying the truth.

    Funnily enough, one would think that after 6-7 years even an Asur fanboy could accept it. I am happy to see you’re still so enraged as in those times.

    ALL HAIL MALEKITH, THE ONE TRUE KING!
    Show me where in the High Elf codex, because it's still stated that Phoenix Kings are all still judged.
    7th edition HE, page 15:
    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.Only twice in the history of the High Elves have persons attempted to pass through the flames of asuryan without the consenting vote of the Council of Ulthuan and lived. The first was Aenarion the Defender, who emerged the first Phoenix King, while the second was Malekith the Great Betrayer.



    Cease this foolishness and join our true master.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698

    The ‘cheating’ was always explicit (though the HE would say it was only ever intended to be a symbolic reenactment), but I’m fairly sure the curse was new to ET. I remember considering it really dumb when ET came out and I’ve generally always leaned to the DE side of the argument.

    That said, not including Aenarion and Finubar most of the Phoenix kings came to fairly inglorious ends:

    2 suicides
    2 murdered by dark elves
    1 killed by his own bodyguards for trying to draw the Sword of Khaine
    1 killed by the Dwarfs (who were allies at the start of his reign) having started a particularly stupid war against them for particularly stupid reasons.

    Only 3 of 9 died peacefully.

    But this was more played up as due a lot of them being chosen for fairly dumb reasons or the ones chosen for being warriors when that was needed being over impetuous rather than a supernatural curse.

    Most Dark Elves are assassinated or outright murderer but yet the onus is on the Phoenix Kings for some reason for having "ignoble" deaths.
    Well yeah, because Dark Elf society is actively terrible and deliberately set up to oppress everyone under Malekith. He has however managed to stay on top of his nation of backstabbers for thousands of years.

    The Phoenix King is the ruler of the richest and generally most secure nation on the planet with divine blessing to protect their people. They’re also selected in a process that’s supposed to (although it often fails in practice) pick the best and most stable ruler.
    They should not be dying such stupid deaths in such a high ratio.
    Aenarion died from wounds he gained in battle; if Asuryan's blessing is meant to forestall death or injury, then was Aenarion himself unworthy?
    Aenarion saved the world. I can’t imagine better death than his.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • Lord_ZarkovLord_Zarkov Registered Users Posts: 380

    The ‘cheating’ was always explicit (though the HE would say it was only ever intended to be a symbolic reenactment), but I’m fairly sure the curse was new to ET. I remember considering it really dumb when ET came out and I’ve generally always leaned to the DE side of the argument.

    That said, not including Aenarion and Finubar most of the Phoenix kings came to fairly inglorious ends:

    2 suicides
    2 murdered by dark elves
    1 killed by his own bodyguards for trying to draw the Sword of Khaine
    1 killed by the Dwarfs (who were allies at the start of his reign) having started a particularly stupid war against them for particularly stupid reasons.

    Only 3 of 9 died peacefully.

    But this was more played up as due a lot of them being chosen for fairly dumb reasons or the ones chosen for being warriors when that was needed being over impetuous rather than a supernatural curse.

    Most Dark Elves are assassinated or outright murderer but yet the onus is on the Phoenix Kings for some reason for having "ignoble" deaths.
    Well yeah, because Dark Elf society is actively terrible and deliberately set up to oppress everyone under Malekith. He has however managed to stay on top of his nation of backstabbers for thousands of years.

    The Phoenix King is the ruler of the richest and generally most secure nation on the planet with divine blessing to protect their people. They’re also selected in a process that’s supposed to (although it often fails in practice) pick the best and most stable ruler.
    They should not be dying such stupid deaths in such a high ratio.
    Aenarion died from wounds he gained in battle; if Asuryan's blessing is meant to forestall death or injury, then was Aenarion himself unworthy?
    It’s not the dying, it’s dying stupidly:

    Aenarion died of injuries sustained defending his people - not a stupid death
    The three that died peacefully - not stupid deaths

    I’ll even grant Bel Shannar as Malekith turning traitor was genuinely shocking at the time.

    However:

    Deliberately drowning oneself - stupid death
    Dying in a stupid genocidal war you started with your allies for basically no reason - stupid death
    Being killed by your own body guards because you insist on trying to draw the evil murder sword - stupid death
    Being so sad at your own uselessness you throw yourself in a fire - stupid death
    Being murdered by your best buddy having spent your entire reign weakening the defences of Ulthuan - stupid death, stupider life

    And that’s not even counting Finubar’s ET death.

    For rulers literally divinely empowered to defend their country that’s not a good record.

    It’s almost like the process for choosing them was really bad and made some terrible decisions for stupid reasons (although admittedly they did luck out on a few occasions as well - e.g. Bel-Hathor who was chosen as a pushover but turned out to be quite competent).
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USARegistered Users Posts: 5,755
    The legitimacy of a leader is ultimately predicated upon the people he attempts to rule. If those they lead do not see them as fit then they will have no authority without finding a means to have more power then those who would oppose the ruler's power. By ensuring the people are unable to revolt they are able to keep those they rule from replacing them. Malekith may have been the legitimate heir of Aenarion but as it was never established that the position of Phoenix King was hereditary instead of election there is no tradition to have been usurped like it would have been if they had done similar for the Everqueen. Aenarion was supported by the Elves because when he first emerged as the Phoenix King he won them over. When he cursed himself, his line, and his people by drawing the widowmaker many began to question him as a leader but not enough to rebel. His attitudes even drove away his closest friend away even if at the end he came to his aid.

    At the time of Aenarion's death no tradition existed that stated that only his son, or one who could be reborn like Aenarion could be the legitimate successor to the position of Phoenix King. No one question Malekith's rule over Nagyrthe as Aenarion's heir which was his right by blood through established tradition but there had been only one Phoenix King and no clear rules of tradition as to whether their should be another one or how one would be chosen to take up that position. In the end the majority of the Elves did not support Malekith as ruler of the entire nation, so it was that they named another Phoenix King and thus it was that they deemed a tradition of passing through the flame warded was tied in with being coronated. No one cheated as the rules never stated that one could only be Phoenix King if they passed through and were reborn as Aenarion was. Aenarion was understood to be an exception. Going through the flame unwarded was something that Malekith established for himself, his own hubris driving him to prove he was better then Bel Shanaar by coming through the ordeal of stepping into the flames as his father had. He failed as he threw himself from the fire and as the princes who ruled the various kingdoms didn't elect him, taboo was committed when he in fact murdered them. Without a legitimate vote the process was not legitimized as per the tradition set down when Bel Shanaar was made the second Phoenix King. Ironically, if they had selected him and he had stepped into the flames and thrown himself out, as per the tradition of passing through and not being immolated, Malekith would have fulfilled that requirement of the tradition of being Phoenix King. Unless they viewed having to be warded as being part of the process (like how some politicians forced one to take a paycheck when they were elected because they didn't like the thought of the precedent being established)... Anyway The Druchii may not like it but Bel Shanaar and those afterwards were the legitimate leaders of the nation as they were elected by majority vote by the Princes, went through the ritual as established when it came time to crown the second Phoenix King, and were acknowledge by the majority of the population as no Phoenix King was ever rebelled against.

    Now how accepting Asuryan is of this process, that is hard to say, his Phoenix Guard still acknowledged them, his priests didn't stop them from doing these things, and hell from my understanding this is all most likely by design anyway. Asuryan is able to foretell the future, reference the wall that all Phoenix Guards look upon and why they are not allowed to ever speak again. No one says Asuryan isn't an ass, he seems to be right along the lines of ancient gods like those found in Hellenic Myth, they grant great boons to people and also screw them over depending on design or whim. In the case of Asuryan he seems more about design to me but that is only my opinion. As for it being a curse or blessing, isn't that always down to the perspective of the individual dealing with it. One who holds their family dear and has their entire lives revolves around those people he loves is then granted eternal life may curse the blessing of eternal life as a curse as those they love so strongly died and vanished from the world leaving them alone and without them for the length of eternity.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    Subjective legitimacy that you describe is secondary; we’re not debating that, because others thought different.

    The codex and novels, though, are clear: The Phoenix Kings used wards because, otherwise, they would die. As Morvael showed.
    Therefore, they cheated the rite. They were unworthy of being the Phoenix Kings.

    Were they “legitimate” for the elves? No, many other elves (Alith Anar and the Asur from Nagarythe included) don’t pledge obedience to the Phoenix King.
    For the Asur then? Sure, if you exclude those of Nagarythe.
    But they are not worthy for Asuryan, that’s for sure, or the priests of Asuryan wouldn’t use the wards to protect them.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 5,718

    Subjective legitimacy that you describe is secondary; we’re not debating that, because others thought different.

    The codex and novels, though, are clear: The Phoenix Kings used wards because, otherwise, they would die. As Morvael showed.
    Therefore, they cheated the rite. They were unworthy of being the Phoenix Kings.

    Were they “legitimate” for the elves? No, many other elves (Alith Anar and the Asur from Nagarythe included) don’t pledge obedience to the Phoenix King.
    For the Asur then? Sure, if you exclude those of Nagarythe.
    But they are not worthy for Asuryan, that’s for sure, or the priests of Asuryan wouldn’t use the wards to protect them.

    Again..... For the millionth time..... They did NOT "cheat" any rite, since the rite was not invented to REPLICATE but to EMULATE.... It is real simple stuff that....
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,818
    Just throwing this out there, but it's possible that Asuryan both wanted his true representatives to go through the flames unaided but also recognized that there wasn't anyone who could meet his standards available, and that's why he didn't just scorch an endless parade of candidates.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    It is not at all what I expected before I passed through the Flame. It is not entirely a comfortable thing to spend your life in the presence of a living god. More I am not allowed to say.
    Finubar.

    Is it a blessing? Or just the presence of Asuryan? Could it be that what Teclis felt was indeed the doom of Asuryan, instead of his blessing? According to the End Times, yes. And according to some ambiguous hints, too.

    Malekith, for example, for first thought that because he had survived the Flames he could be the Chosen One of Asuryan. However, after a battle where the Phoenix Guard inflicts him wounds with the same Asuryan magic, he realises that he was doomed, not blessed.
    But that’s from the point of view of mortals. Asuryan could have planned all of that to strengthen Malekith and prepare him for the final battles against Chaos, which was always his destiny, as he saw through the Circlet of Iron.

    Not white and black in this plot, despite what the Asur would like, that’s for sure.

    It is a blessing.

    Finubar laughed. ‘I do not do the testing myself, Prince Tyrion. The priests and the mages do it. My part of the process is simply to look at you and recommend a course of action. It is one of the gifts of the Phoenix King. I can see when certain elves are of... consequence. I can tell for example that you are very strongly of the Blood of Aenarion and I will need to send you to the seers. I suspect the same will prove true of your twin.’
    Tyrion felt some unease, facing the tranquil gaze of the Phoenix King. Once more he got that sense of remoteness, but it was of a different type. Finubar seemed unaware of the fact that he might well be condemning Tyrion and his brother to death. Or perhaps he simply did not care.
    Was it passing through the flame that had done this, Tyrion wondered, or was it simply the responsibility of kingship?
    ‘May I ask how you can tell, sire?’
    ‘You may ask – but I am damned if I can tell you.’ Finubar laughed and the simple sea captain was back. ‘I just know, or rather the part of me that was touched by the flame knows and it deigns to communicate its knowledge to me. I can see that there is something about you that is different from others. I could tell you were of the Blood. It was the same in the old days when I was a captain on my father’s ships. I could tell when a storm would be a bad one or whether the wind was about to change suddenly.’

    From Broken Realms: Mortathi:

    Like a lighthouse amidst a raging ocean, the Lantern called forth spirits that had lingered in torment within the Dark Prince for countless centuries. They surged to freedom in their multitudes. Most were dull, ragged things, flickering with the merest traces of potential. These Morathi brushed aside dismissively. She sought those souls which blazed like stars, undiminished by the aeons they had spent in torturous bondage: the souls of ancient kings of the aelven race, who had, in another world, ruled over an empire unrivalled in its beauty and grace.
    Even now they bore a flicker of divinity. Within each burned the ember of a sacred flame, undimmed by the weight of ages. As these radiant souls reached out to her, Morathi felt a flood of stirring emotion. Some of these beings she had known, in a life long lost to her. Some she had hated. Some she had feared. One amongst them, she had even loved.
    Memories both bitter and sweet swirled in her mind. The pang of her lonely existence briefly ached at her, but only for an instant; Morathi smothered that weakness, turned her heart to iron. She had come here for a single purpose, and no mortal emotion would intervene. Her body became that of a writhing serpent, formed from the deepest shadows. She seized the nearest of the king-souls in her coils and latched onto it with night-black fangs. Morathi drank deep, draining every drop of its potent power, leaving nothing but a husk of ash behind. Then, she snatched another and another, and each met the same doom as the first. Morathi screamed in triumph as she felt herself swelling with divine might.
    Horrified, the king-souls tried to escape the Shadow Queen’s grasp, but her grasping coils would not relent. Still, they possessed formidable power, and took mystical forms of their own to deny their betrayer. Some transformed into flame winged eagles, swooping down to rake Morathi’s eyes. Others summoned spears and blades of sunlight, or became waves of azure magic that struck at the Shadow Queen’s serpentine form.
    Yet with every one of their number consumed, Morathi grew mightier. One by one the king-souls were devoured, until only a single radiant spirit remained – perhaps the most powerful of all. On the threshold of her ascension, Morathi hesitated. This being she had once shared a closeness with that her cruel heart had never experienced before or since.
    It was a moment of weakness that would cost her dearly. The kingsoul – filled with rage at the slaughter of its kin – became a sword of fire and blood, a blazing brand that hewed straight through Morathi’s soul, sundering the very core of her being. The Shadow Queen reeled and screeched in agony, black ichor pouring from the terrible wound. As Morathi fell into darkness, cleaved in twain, the bloated body of Slaanesh began to convulse. A chorus of demented groans issued from the captive god’s thousand mouths, followed by a flood of glittering drool. This viscous torrent coalesced into a shimmering, protean shape that raced after the retreating Shadow Queen…
    Yeah, I’ve seen the blessing of Asuryan upon Morvael when he entered the Flame with no wards...

    Obviously, Finubar is going to say that he is blessed by Asuryan.
    But we don’t know for sure if it is a blessing, just a touching, or even a doom. And this was done this way on purpose to create more rivalry between fans.

    The only fact we know is that no elf apart of Aenarion and Malekith has entered the Flame and survived.

    PS: since you’re so loyal to Imrik and Caledor, you should turn against the traitors too, since your master did it when he saw this truth.
    Finubar ends up becoming one of the better Phoenix Kings and up until End Times, had no indication or doubts that he was chosen by Asuryan. That's about 60% of this controversy, how it threw the entire institution of the Phoenix King under the bus as a "curse" when the majority of them were capable leaders whose deaths weren't any worse than any other in Warhammer.

    This entire controversy ends with Morvael, the only known of those auto proclaimed “Phoenix Kings” who dared to enter the Flame with no wards.
    Here is where you can see what happens to these imposters when they do what Aenarion and Malekith did.

    Much before the End Times, it was explicit in the lore that every Phoenix King after Aenarion had cheated the rite. That includes Finubar. So, sorry but no. This isn’t an End Times thing as you claim (or you would like).
    The cheating and the curse were both explicit and hinted many times during decades before what was a confirmation of what we already knew.
    It’s just that the truth pains, but it was very obvious since the first time what was going on.

    Don’t worry, you can be still worthy of the one true King of the elves... there is always room for soldiers... or slaves!
    You of course realise that BEFORE End Times, then Malekith would have suffered the EXACT same fate as Morvael, right? The story up until End Times was that Malekith was indeed unworthy of Aenarion's legacy, and it was only Malekith's supernatural willpower that allowed him to throw himself out of the fire and actually stay alive...
    We will never know, because he didn’t do it. Maybe he would have been reborn... AS HE DID IN THE END TIMES.

    And Nemo, if you can’t accept the Phoenix Kings cheated even when the HE codex says so, it’s time to end this conversation here and now. Won’t waste more time with someone who is still denying the truth.

    Funnily enough, one would think that after 6-7 years even an Asur fanboy could accept it. I am happy to see you’re still so enraged as in those times.

    ALL HAIL MALEKITH, THE ONE TRUE KING!
    Show me where in the High Elf codex, because it's still stated that Phoenix Kings are all still judged.
    7th edition HE, page 15:
    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.Only twice in the history of the High Elves have persons attempted to pass through the flames of asuryan without the consenting vote of the Council of Ulthuan and lived. The first was Aenarion the Defender, who emerged the first Phoenix King, while the second was Malekith the Great Betrayer.



    Cease this foolishness and join our true master.
    It says he's protected from dying from the fire itself. It's still described as a test, it's still done under Asuryan's blessing, one that they still barely survive from. Again, the reasons to protect the elected Phoenix King are pretty pragmatic, not one based on any doubts in the test itself.

    The ‘cheating’ was always explicit (though the HE would say it was only ever intended to be a symbolic reenactment), but I’m fairly sure the curse was new to ET. I remember considering it really dumb when ET came out and I’ve generally always leaned to the DE side of the argument.

    That said, not including Aenarion and Finubar most of the Phoenix kings came to fairly inglorious ends:

    2 suicides
    2 murdered by dark elves
    1 killed by his own bodyguards for trying to draw the Sword of Khaine
    1 killed by the Dwarfs (who were allies at the start of his reign) having started a particularly stupid war against them for particularly stupid reasons.

    Only 3 of 9 died peacefully.

    But this was more played up as due a lot of them being chosen for fairly dumb reasons or the ones chosen for being warriors when that was needed being over impetuous rather than a supernatural curse.

    Most Dark Elves are assassinated or outright murderer but yet the onus is on the Phoenix Kings for some reason for having "ignoble" deaths.
    Well yeah, because Dark Elf society is actively terrible and deliberately set up to oppress everyone under Malekith. He has however managed to stay on top of his nation of backstabbers for thousands of years.

    The Phoenix King is the ruler of the richest and generally most secure nation on the planet with divine blessing to protect their people. They’re also selected in a process that’s supposed to (although it often fails in practice) pick the best and most stable ruler.
    They should not be dying such stupid deaths in such a high ratio.
    Aenarion died from wounds he gained in battle; if Asuryan's blessing is meant to forestall death or injury, then was Aenarion himself unworthy?
    Aenarion saved the world. I can’t imagine better death than his.
    He still died in battle, and he survived mostly thanks to the Sword of Khaine. Aenarion was still slowly losing with Asuryan's blessing until he got the war god involved.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    The ‘cheating’ was always explicit (though the HE would say it was only ever intended to be a symbolic reenactment), but I’m fairly sure the curse was new to ET. I remember considering it really dumb when ET came out and I’ve generally always leaned to the DE side of the argument.

    That said, not including Aenarion and Finubar most of the Phoenix kings came to fairly inglorious ends:

    2 suicides
    2 murdered by dark elves
    1 killed by his own bodyguards for trying to draw the Sword of Khaine
    1 killed by the Dwarfs (who were allies at the start of his reign) having started a particularly stupid war against them for particularly stupid reasons.

    Only 3 of 9 died peacefully.

    But this was more played up as due a lot of them being chosen for fairly dumb reasons or the ones chosen for being warriors when that was needed being over impetuous rather than a supernatural curse.

    Most Dark Elves are assassinated or outright murderer but yet the onus is on the Phoenix Kings for some reason for having "ignoble" deaths.
    Well yeah, because Dark Elf society is actively terrible and deliberately set up to oppress everyone under Malekith. He has however managed to stay on top of his nation of backstabbers for thousands of years.

    The Phoenix King is the ruler of the richest and generally most secure nation on the planet with divine blessing to protect their people. They’re also selected in a process that’s supposed to (although it often fails in practice) pick the best and most stable ruler.
    They should not be dying such stupid deaths in such a high ratio.
    Aenarion died from wounds he gained in battle; if Asuryan's blessing is meant to forestall death or injury, then was Aenarion himself unworthy?
    It’s not the dying, it’s dying stupidly:

    Aenarion died of injuries sustained defending his people - not a stupid death
    The three that died peacefully - not stupid deaths

    I’ll even grant Bel Shannar as Malekith turning traitor was genuinely shocking at the time.

    However:

    Deliberately drowning oneself - stupid death
    Dying in a stupid genocidal war you started with your allies for basically no reason - stupid death
    Being killed by your own body guards because you insist on trying to draw the evil murder sword - stupid death
    Being so sad at your own uselessness you throw yourself in a fire - stupid death
    Being murdered by your best buddy having spent your entire reign weakening the defences of Ulthuan - stupid death, stupider life

    And that’s not even counting Finubar’s ET death.

    For rulers literally divinely empowered to defend their country that’s not a good record.

    It’s almost like the process for choosing them was really bad and made some terrible decisions for stupid reasons (although admittedly they did luck out on a few occasions as well - e.g. Bel-Hathor who was chosen as a pushover but turned out to be quite competent).
    Except most of them die achieving just that; Tethlis literally scoured the Dark Elves off Ulthuan before his murder. Morvael still managed to hold the Dark Elves in place despite all his choices and severe depression, leaving the military much stronger than before in the long run. Caledon *stopped the Sundering* and decided that death by drowning was better than Dark Elven enslavement, because it is.

    Maybe Asuryan doesn't care about his chosen very much or dislikes the candidates his people put forward, but you're severely reductionist take negates all their impacts and accomplishments.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231

    Subjective legitimacy that you describe is secondary; we’re not debating that, because others thought different.

    The codex and novels, though, are clear: The Phoenix Kings used wards because, otherwise, they would die. As Morvael showed.
    Therefore, they cheated the rite. They were unworthy of being the Phoenix Kings.

    Were they “legitimate” for the elves? No, many other elves (Alith Anar and the Asur from Nagarythe included) don’t pledge obedience to the Phoenix King.
    For the Asur then? Sure, if you exclude those of Nagarythe.
    But they are not worthy for Asuryan, that’s for sure, or the priests of Asuryan wouldn’t use the wards to protect them.

    Again..... For the millionth time..... They did NOT "cheat" any rite, since the rite was not invented to REPLICATE but to EMULATE.... It is real simple stuff that....
    To emulate means to make efforts to equal or excel something. Doing the same thing as someone did before you but needing help when they didn't isn't emulating. You perhaps shouldn't boast about how something is "real simple stuff" that you've repeated ad infinitum when you're objectively wrong about it.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
    You have come from negating the truth to admitting the lore was ambiguous about this subject.

    Good, Asur, good. Soon you will be fighting for the Chosen One.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
    You have come from negating the truth to admitting the lore was ambiguous about this subject.

    Good, Asur, good. Soon you will be fighting for the Chosen One.
    Sorry, I don't RP out in public. The newer literature state with no ambiguity that Finubar has Asuryan's blessing, and that past Phoenix Kings likely did as well. The army books still describe the Phoenix King's trial...as a trial. They just don't go into it risking their life, just with enough protection for Asuryan to look at them with again, Finubar, confirming that he had a conversation with the god.

    I do not believe that each and every Phoenix King was as great or worthy as Aenarion; my headcanon is that Asuryan more or less gave each monarch his blessing without the expectation that they'd be smart with it, that ultimately it was up to his people to make the qualified choice, and by and large, their candidates probed worthwhile.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    Sure, sure. It wasn’t cheating. Using wards and magics because otherwise they would have died is not cheat at all jk.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
    You have come from negating the truth to admitting the lore was ambiguous about this subject.

    Good, Asur, good. Soon you will be fighting for the Chosen One.
    Sorry, I don't RP out in public. The newer literature state with no ambiguity that Finubar has Asuryan's blessing, and that past Phoenix Kings likely did as well. The army books still describe the Phoenix King's trial...as a trial. They just don't go into it risking their life, just with enough protection for Asuryan to look at them with again, Finubar, confirming that he had a conversation with the god.

    I do not believe that each and every Phoenix King was as great or worthy as Aenarion; my headcanon is that Asuryan more or less gave each monarch his blessing without the expectation that they'd be smart with it, that ultimately it was up to his people to make the qualified choice, and by and large, their candidates probed worthwhile.
    Wouldn't the "newer literature" be the End Times?
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    Sure, sure. It wasn’t cheating. Using wards and magics because otherwise they would have died is not cheat at all jk.

    Imagine in any democratic country today had to make their head of state go through a trial they could possibly die in. Already it's something of mess, and that added hurdle would really ruin things.

    There's taking precaution and there's being faithless. Having your head if state and the military die after a year of voting and debate wouldn't make for a great change of administration.
  • Icebern12Icebern12 Registered Users Posts: 202

    It is not at all what I expected before I passed through the Flame. It is not entirely a comfortable thing to spend your life in the presence of a living god. More I am not allowed to say.
    Finubar.

    Is it a blessing? Or just the presence of Asuryan? Could it be that what Teclis felt was indeed the doom of Asuryan, instead of his blessing? According to the End Times, yes. And according to some ambiguous hints, too.

    Malekith, for example, for first thought that because he had survived the Flames he could be the Chosen One of Asuryan. However, after a battle where the Phoenix Guard inflicts him wounds with the same Asuryan magic, he realises that he was doomed, not blessed.
    But that’s from the point of view of mortals. Asuryan could have planned all of that to strengthen Malekith and prepare him for the final battles against Chaos, which was always his destiny, as he saw through the Circlet of Iron.

    Not white and black in this plot, despite what the Asur would like, that’s for sure.

    It is a blessing.

    Finubar laughed. ‘I do not do the testing myself, Prince Tyrion. The priests and the mages do it. My part of the process is simply to look at you and recommend a course of action. It is one of the gifts of the Phoenix King. I can see when certain elves are of... consequence. I can tell for example that you are very strongly of the Blood of Aenarion and I will need to send you to the seers. I suspect the same will prove true of your twin.’
    Tyrion felt some unease, facing the tranquil gaze of the Phoenix King. Once more he got that sense of remoteness, but it was of a different type. Finubar seemed unaware of the fact that he might well be condemning Tyrion and his brother to death. Or perhaps he simply did not care.
    Was it passing through the flame that had done this, Tyrion wondered, or was it simply the responsibility of kingship?
    ‘May I ask how you can tell, sire?’
    ‘You may ask – but I am damned if I can tell you.’ Finubar laughed and the simple sea captain was back. ‘I just know, or rather the part of me that was touched by the flame knows and it deigns to communicate its knowledge to me. I can see that there is something about you that is different from others. I could tell you were of the Blood. It was the same in the old days when I was a captain on my father’s ships. I could tell when a storm would be a bad one or whether the wind was about to change suddenly.’

    From Broken Realms: Mortathi:

    Like a lighthouse amidst a raging ocean, the Lantern called forth spirits that had lingered in torment within the Dark Prince for countless centuries. They surged to freedom in their multitudes. Most were dull, ragged things, flickering with the merest traces of potential. These Morathi brushed aside dismissively. She sought those souls which blazed like stars, undiminished by the aeons they had spent in torturous bondage: the souls of ancient kings of the aelven race, who had, in another world, ruled over an empire unrivalled in its beauty and grace.
    Even now they bore a flicker of divinity. Within each burned the ember of a sacred flame, undimmed by the weight of ages. As these radiant souls reached out to her, Morathi felt a flood of stirring emotion. Some of these beings she had known, in a life long lost to her. Some she had hated. Some she had feared. One amongst them, she had even loved.
    Memories both bitter and sweet swirled in her mind. The pang of her lonely existence briefly ached at her, but only for an instant; Morathi smothered that weakness, turned her heart to iron. She had come here for a single purpose, and no mortal emotion would intervene. Her body became that of a writhing serpent, formed from the deepest shadows. She seized the nearest of the king-souls in her coils and latched onto it with night-black fangs. Morathi drank deep, draining every drop of its potent power, leaving nothing but a husk of ash behind. Then, she snatched another and another, and each met the same doom as the first. Morathi screamed in triumph as she felt herself swelling with divine might.
    Horrified, the king-souls tried to escape the Shadow Queen’s grasp, but her grasping coils would not relent. Still, they possessed formidable power, and took mystical forms of their own to deny their betrayer. Some transformed into flame winged eagles, swooping down to rake Morathi’s eyes. Others summoned spears and blades of sunlight, or became waves of azure magic that struck at the Shadow Queen’s serpentine form.
    Yet with every one of their number consumed, Morathi grew mightier. One by one the king-souls were devoured, until only a single radiant spirit remained – perhaps the most powerful of all. On the threshold of her ascension, Morathi hesitated. This being she had once shared a closeness with that her cruel heart had never experienced before or since.
    It was a moment of weakness that would cost her dearly. The kingsoul – filled with rage at the slaughter of its kin – became a sword of fire and blood, a blazing brand that hewed straight through Morathi’s soul, sundering the very core of her being. The Shadow Queen reeled and screeched in agony, black ichor pouring from the terrible wound. As Morathi fell into darkness, cleaved in twain, the bloated body of Slaanesh began to convulse. A chorus of demented groans issued from the captive god’s thousand mouths, followed by a flood of glittering drool. This viscous torrent coalesced into a shimmering, protean shape that raced after the retreating Shadow Queen…
    Yeah, I’ve seen the blessing of Asuryan upon Morvael when he entered the Flame with no wards...

    Obviously, Finubar is going to say that he is blessed by Asuryan.
    But we don’t know for sure if it is a blessing, just a touching, or even a doom. And this was done this way on purpose to create more rivalry between fans.

    The only fact we know is that no elf apart of Aenarion and Malekith has entered the Flame and survived.

    PS: since you’re so loyal to Imrik and Caledor, you should turn against the traitors too, since your master did it when he saw this truth.
    We do know that he has powers and that the Phoenix Guard obey him, even though they know that Malekith is Asuryan's chosen heir to Aenarion's throne.

    With ET and BR in mind, I think it's safe to say that the Phoenix Kings after Aenarion were both blessed and cursed. Hopefully, either AoS or OW (ideally both) will revisit the issue.

    P.S. It was Caledor Dragontamer who made Imrik to choose the lesser evil and follow the Witch King. That's the truth for him.
    I can concede that. Asuryan blessed and cursed the Phoenix Kings at the same time.
    In the same way, I too believe that he “blessed” Malekith guiding him to his destined path.
    I'm sorry but the end times is absolute trash and should not be talked about in any discussion about elves. Let me rant for a bit to explain you why:

    The High/Dark elf conflict is in many ways a debate between Asuryan and Khaine about the nature of rightful rulership: for Asuryan and the High Elves, leadership derives from some sort of legitimate moral authority; for Khaine and the Dark Elves, it derives from power and force.

    So the entire Dark Elf argument is, essentially, that High Elf culture is blinded by these delusions, believing that Asuryan's will or fate or the will of the council of nobles has anything to do with leadership. In actual fact it derives from the conqueror's sword. You are not anointed with rulership by the grace of Asuryan: you seize it with the bloody hand of Khaine! Remember that Malekith's original argument as to why he should be Phoenix King was not just that he was Aenarion's son, but that he was the most capable person. He was the greatest general, the most daring adventurer, and the most cunning warrior. He was the strongest. But the council, while not denying any of those claims, dared to suggest that Ulthuan needed someone else. So for Malekith, leadership was something that he deserved on the basis of his various merits; but for the Asuryan-based High Elf culture, leadership is something that you are graced with.

    It is thus an ideological debate, carried out between gods, through proxy mortal societies. Khaine asserts that power governs all social relationships, and is the only true basis of hierarchy. Asuryan asserts that it's something else; I take this in a bit of a Confucian direction and suggest that it is virtue, a sort of self-cultivated moral authority that others come to recognise. But whether you define it that way or not, there is a difference.

    In this light, End Times: Khaine is an absolute trainwreck because it involves both sides completely and utterly betraying their principles for which they have fought the bloodiest war in the Warhammer world for millenia.

    Malekith throws Khaine under the bus at the first opportunity, and the Dark Elves seem to forget that they ever had any dispute with the High Elves at all. Asuryan is thoroughly mutilated and turned into an arbitrary jerk who seems to follow Khainite logic: that is, Malekith always deserved the throne because he was the toughest, and the key test is now your willingness to endure pain in the Flame of Asuryan.

    Excuse me? The Flame of Asuryan isn't meant to test your pain threshold. That's completely superficial and meaningless. The Flame of Asuryan is a moral test: it gives Asuryan the opportunity to look into the candidate's heart and see whether he is appropriate. In Malekith's case Asuryan saw selfishness, perfidy and unmeasured ambition and Malekith burned for it.

    Asuryan is the ur-Asur, so to speak. He is the literal embodiment of the highest ideals and values of the High Elven people. He is dignity, culture, and self-belief. He is righteous authority. He is the ultimate incarnation of the Phoenix King, ruler, lawgiver, and irreproachable judge. He is the sun of justice that rises upon barbarism, and which, like the phoenix, rises no matter the attempts of Bloody-Handed murderers to unseat him. Dark elves were the greatest threat the high elves have faced after the demon invasion in Aenarion times, that's the whole thing: The cytharai represent to the elves the destructive and self-destructive aspect of their mindframe through obsession. They are the uncomfortable realities of life that should be contained yet nonetheless are a part of life and therefore must be respected for that (Khaine - murder, blood and violence. Eldrazor - battle for honor obsessed, the ends justify the means. Anath Raema - thrill of the hunt, vengeance and jealousy, etc... note that the druchii are druchii precisely because they threw up that whole appeasement amd containment thing and went full throttle worshipping it), the elves and their own mindset if not properly checked, their own gods which are an embodiment of those feelings and thoughts are their biggest threat.


    But at the same time Asuryan, which is the king of the Gods, the embodiment of authority, can't be unseated no matter how much brute force you use. Malekith is dreadful and a force to be reckoned with, but Ulthuan always stands or is saved from the brink of collapse in all his invasions because the Phoenix King is not what Malekith is, nor should he be.

    Asuryan is the one who lives in the Eternal Flame, bestowing kingship and blessing the worthy.

    He is not a capricious asshat who decides who deserves to be Phoenix King on the basis of their pain threshold, and he most assurely does not favour Malekith because Malekith represents everything Asuryan despises, *and that's what in a way makes Malekith cool*, after burning and knowing the king of the gods had rejected him he decided that if he couldn't have Ulthuan by right he would have it by force and would become the embodiment of bloody conquest. Thus the witch king is born fulfilling Caledor's prophecy of doom to Aenarion when he drew the sword of Khaine. Malekith and the dark elves are thus a product of Aenarion greatest failure when he drew the sword of Khaine, with him as Phoenix king drawing a weapon of such sheer bloodthirst and violence for his vengeance against chaos that it tainted the office of the Phoenix King, inviting Khaine to dispute for it against Asuryan.

    Malekith did offer arguments as to why he should succeed Aenarion, but conspicuously, "because I'm Aenarion's son" was not the primary one. Malekith's argument was based on merit: I'm awesome, Bel-Shanaar's a wuss, what the hell are you guys doing picking him, have I mentioned recently that I'm awesome?" The council of nobles disagreed that a mighty warrior was what was needed, however, and so chose not to support Malekith as successor to Aenarion.

    I mean, yes, it's true that part of what made Malekith into what he became was his absolute, desperate preoccupation with being Phoenix King, his belief that he was entitled to it by birth and merit, and his burning hatred of who he perceived as the hypocrites, cowards, and traitors who denied him his rightful due... but it's also true that all those features are why he would have been an awful king, why the council denied him the crown, and why Asuryan burned him to a crisp in the Flame. Malekith was not worthy. The fact that he conspired to murder bel shanaar and high elf nobles to grab the throne, went crazy and tried to conquer Ulthuan numerous times and is significantly responsible (with Morathi) for thousands of years of brutal, genocidal warfare and misery only confirms his lack of worthiness. It does not mean that he should have been given the crown, and it certainly doesn't mean that he would have handled the crown well.

    That's what's cool about Malekith. He is the arch-usurper, in a way. He's cool the way Mordred is cool, or the way the Witch King of Angmar is cool. For the dark elves the correct answer to "does he have a rightful claim to the throne?" is "lol, who cares?" then you surround the foolish questioner with Black Guard, wicked halberds raised, and ask softly whether the questioner would like to ask again.

    Making Malekith "the rightful king" from the beginning defeats the entire point of Malekith as a character and undermines the entire ethos of the Dark Elves, which is that everything flows from power. But it also undermines Asuryan and everything the high elves represent. Making it all seem like "oh no you were totally worthy dude you just needed to resist the pain a few more seconds, I don't care that you are mad for power, murdered bel-shaanar, conspired with your mother to create cults to the cytherai and assassinated the elf princes in my very temple, you are cool because you are strong"

    Please shoot me.

    I could go on and on why the entire mindset of Asur and druchii wouldn't let something like end times: khaine happen, because there is material there for days. But I'm trying to make this rant as brief as possible, on the characters, Teclis is shown as another impulsive asshat contradicting his entire character in novels and army books, Imrirk... the proud Caledorian prince, descendant of Archmage Caledor Dragontamer, Caledor the Conqueror, proud high prince of the kingdom who defeated Malekith thrice with Caledor I, Tethlis (caledorian) and mentheus (caledor Ian)... Allies with Malekith because... He had a dream? Okay who is this guy? And why are not his Generals and troops linching this doppelganger the second he tells them he is going to ally with Malekith? Then you have Alith Anar, leader of the nagarytheans who were not corrupted by the cults and Morathi and suffered for it, the guy who has been living thousands of years only through pure hate towards Malekith and the dark elves, waiting for the moment he can enact his revenge... calling it quits and that he will just be watching. I could go on and on with literally every dark or high elf character. They all act like dumb idiots to make the dumb plot made by dumb writers fit.

    People like Gav Thorpe, who made the elf lore from the beginning, are missing, and new writers who never understood Warhammer lore or were present in its construction took over, and it shows.

    I cannot acknowledge end times: khaine as even being about the Dark Elves or the High Elves. It is a cash grab, a fanfiction level of writing to wrap up the Warhammer world in a short time to begin age of sigmar. It is that wrong.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
    You have come from negating the truth to admitting the lore was ambiguous about this subject.

    Good, Asur, good. Soon you will be fighting for the Chosen One.
    Sorry, I don't RP out in public. The newer literature state with no ambiguity that Finubar has Asuryan's blessing, and that past Phoenix Kings likely did as well. The army books still describe the Phoenix King's trial...as a trial. They just don't go into it risking their life, just with enough protection for Asuryan to look at them with again, Finubar, confirming that he had a conversation with the god.

    I do not believe that each and every Phoenix King was as great or worthy as Aenarion; my headcanon is that Asuryan more or less gave each monarch his blessing without the expectation that they'd be smart with it, that ultimately it was up to his people to make the qualified choice, and by and large, their candidates probed worthwhile.
    Wouldn't the "newer literature" be the End Times?
    The Tyrion and Teclis trilogy. Still not a high water mark for BL, but it's clear that Finubar was worthy.
  • YrellianYrellian Registered Users Posts: 1,892

    Sure, sure. It wasn’t cheating. Using wards and magics because otherwise they would have died is not cheat at all jk.

    How is it a cheating? They were just doing what the Asuryen’s own priests and high priest told them to do and it was Yvraine herself who presented Bel-Shanar as a candidate IIRC, so an avatar of Isha though him worthy.

    Or are you implying that the priests of Asuryan were cheating on their own god? Why would they do that? And why would Phoenix guard tolerate it?

    His Royal Highness, Phoenix King Finubar!

    "It has been too long since I drew a blade in anger, Tyrion. You have been my sword, and Teclis has been my shield. But now it is time I fought my own battles!"

    I used to be crazycrix, then Epic happened and I became Dubinekdubajs, which I had to change again😀
  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
    You have come from negating the truth to admitting the lore was ambiguous about this subject.

    Good, Asur, good. Soon you will be fighting for the Chosen One.
    Sorry, I don't RP out in public. The newer literature state with no ambiguity that Finubar has Asuryan's blessing, and that past Phoenix Kings likely did as well. The army books still describe the Phoenix King's trial...as a trial. They just don't go into it risking their life, just with enough protection for Asuryan to look at them with again, Finubar, confirming that he had a conversation with the god.

    I do not believe that each and every Phoenix King was as great or worthy as Aenarion; my headcanon is that Asuryan more or less gave each monarch his blessing without the expectation that they'd be smart with it, that ultimately it was up to his people to make the qualified choice, and by and large, their candidates probed worthwhile.
    Wouldn't the "newer literature" be the End Times?
    The Tyrion and Teclis trilogy. Still not a high water mark for BL, but it's clear that Finubar was worthy.
    But unless I'm mistaken The End Times was released after them.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    I’m not going to read that wall of text, and less if you describe it as a rant, obviously.

    I will go to sleep, happy, knowing that my king is the one true chosen. This is the canon.
    Now rant all what you want, or go to GW and kill them if you wish, but Malekith is the true king of Ulthuan, and it was always that way for many of us.

    😊
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • YrellianYrellian Registered Users Posts: 1,892

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
    You have come from negating the truth to admitting the lore was ambiguous about this subject.

    Good, Asur, good. Soon you will be fighting for the Chosen One.
    Sorry, I don't RP out in public. The newer literature state with no ambiguity that Finubar has Asuryan's blessing, and that past Phoenix Kings likely did as well. The army books still describe the Phoenix King's trial...as a trial. They just don't go into it risking their life, just with enough protection for Asuryan to look at them with again, Finubar, confirming that he had a conversation with the god.

    I do not believe that each and every Phoenix King was as great or worthy as Aenarion; my headcanon is that Asuryan more or less gave each monarch his blessing without the expectation that they'd be smart with it, that ultimately it was up to his people to make the qualified choice, and by and large, their candidates probed worthwhile.
    Wouldn't the "newer literature" be the End Times?
    The Tyrion and Teclis trilogy. Still not a high water mark for BL, but it's clear that Finubar was worthy.
    But unless I'm mistaken The End Times was released after them.
    And the Morathi book from AoS, which was released after ET also shows them with divine powers and parts of Asuryan in them.

    His Royal Highness, Phoenix King Finubar!

    "It has been too long since I drew a blade in anger, Tyrion. You have been my sword, and Teclis has been my shield. But now it is time I fought my own battles!"

    I used to be crazycrix, then Epic happened and I became Dubinekdubajs, which I had to change again😀
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    And it doesn’t even matter if you want to hide your head in the land to avoid the End Times.
    The very HE codex shows us how the imposters cheated the rite.

    Mental gymnastics will say they didn’t cheat. If they sleep better telling that to themselves, I have no clue, but this lore was there for decades.
    The first time I debated this was with my cousin, who collected HE, like 15 years or more ago. And yet, Asur fans never cease to amuse me with their negation of the truth.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231
    Yrellian said:

    The lore was explicit about this from decades before the End Times, as Morvael shows us.

    The End Times confirmed it.

    Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us.

    No, the lore was ambiguous and it still is. Morvael, again, wanted to die and Asuryan granted his wish after spending his entire reign fighting the Druchii, the people who rejected Asuryan and his expectations.
    You have come from negating the truth to admitting the lore was ambiguous about this subject.

    Good, Asur, good. Soon you will be fighting for the Chosen One.
    Sorry, I don't RP out in public. The newer literature state with no ambiguity that Finubar has Asuryan's blessing, and that past Phoenix Kings likely did as well. The army books still describe the Phoenix King's trial...as a trial. They just don't go into it risking their life, just with enough protection for Asuryan to look at them with again, Finubar, confirming that he had a conversation with the god.

    I do not believe that each and every Phoenix King was as great or worthy as Aenarion; my headcanon is that Asuryan more or less gave each monarch his blessing without the expectation that they'd be smart with it, that ultimately it was up to his people to make the qualified choice, and by and large, their candidates probed worthwhile.
    Wouldn't the "newer literature" be the End Times?
    The Tyrion and Teclis trilogy. Still not a high water mark for BL, but it's clear that Finubar was worthy.
    But unless I'm mistaken The End Times was released after them.
    And the Morathi book from AoS, which was released after ET also shows them with divine powers and parts of Asuryan in them.
    Well in that case - assuming you're correct - it appears that AoS, which is its own IP, has retconned something from the End Times. At this juncture I suppose it becomes an issue of whether you consider AoS and Warhammer to be separate things or not. If you think they're the same then it appears it's been retconned again which isn't terribly surprising; Retcons happen all the time throughout the lore. If you consider Warhammer and AoS to be separate things, however, then it's pretty unambiguous; End Times was the final word on Warhammer lore (until such a time as new Warhammer lore is produced).
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