Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How come Malekith burns were never healed?

179111213

Comments

  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    Except that they DO NOT REBORN, because they ARE UNHARMED BECAUSE OF THE WARDS, not because Asuryan granted his favour like he did with Aenarion, the only true Phoenix King before Malekith.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    It’s not rocket science to watch the differences between Aenarion’s rite and the rest of pretenders.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202
    edited July 26

    Except that they DO NOT REBORN, because they ARE UNHARMED BECAUSE OF THE WARDS, not because Asuryan granted his favour like he did with Aenarion, the only true Phoenix King before Malekith.

    Nowhere in that passage is it mentioned that the Phoenix Kings are invulnerable. If anything, it says the opposite by how the wards help them survive the process.

    Comment removed. Nowhere is it mentioned that there's cheating involved or that the Phoenix Kings are immune to the fire.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    Before being crowned, they must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    They must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan.

    It is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all.

    Hard to prove that you are pure if you can’t be harmed... because you’re bearing magic wards with that very purpose.

    Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.

    This is exactly what Aenarion did. Die and reborn... which makes sense to be the Phoenix King. You know, that mythical creature that dies before it is reborn.

    In conclusion:

    Since they use wards to protect them from the Flame of Asuryan... they can’t be harmed by the Flame of Asuryan.
    Since they don’t result harmed by the Flame of Asuryan... they aren’t killed, hence they aren’t reborn.
    Since they aren’t reborn... they aren’t Phoenix Kings under the eyes of Asuryan.

    In conclusion, the pretenders CHEATED.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    edited July 26

    Except that they DO NOT REBORN, because they ARE UNHARMED BECAUSE OF THE WARDS, not because Asuryan granted his favour like he did with Aenarion, the only true Phoenix King before Malekith.

    Nowhere in that passage is it mentioned that the Phoenix Kings are invulnerable. If anything, it says the opposite by how the wards help them survive the process.

    Comment removed. Nowhere is it mentioned that there's cheating involved or that the Phoenix Kings are immune to the fire.
    Maybe for becoming a true Asur fan you need this clarity of mind that allows you to be unable to understand this simple facts from established lore of decades before the End Times.

    I thought that you could still be redeemed under the Host of the Witch King, but that mind of yours would only serve as nauglir feed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    I can’t believe people has decided to choose this hill to die... not recognising that magic wards are a cheat.

    The idea of people still arguing against this makes me question the legitimacy of democracy.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USARegistered Users Posts: 5,755

    It’s not rocket science to watch the differences between Aenarion’s rite and the rest of pretenders.

    Aenarion never performed a rite, no rite existed at the time for him to perform and he was given no instruction by Asuryan as to how he was to get his acceptance. Everything Aenarion did was his own will in hopes that Asuryan would grant help to the Elves. Even Malekith didn't conduct this supposed rite that didn't exist as Malekith didn't make sacrifices praying for help over time and ultimately offer himself up as the sacrifice to Asuryan in hope that help for the Elves would come in some form.

    Also do you have a quote that I'm unaware of where Asuryan was the one who bestowed the title Phoenix King upon Aenarion? I will even take a quote from The End Times because that was unfortunately the current ending lore officially published. I have never seen where it was stated exactly when and where the title was first used by the Elves in lore.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    Erminaz said:

    It’s not rocket science to watch the differences between Aenarion’s rite and the rest of pretenders.

    Aenarion never performed a rite, no rite existed at the time for him to perform and he was given no instruction by Asuryan as to how he was to get his acceptance. Everything Aenarion did was his own will in hopes that Asuryan would grant help to the Elves. Even Malekith didn't conduct this supposed rite that didn't exist as Malekith didn't make sacrifices praying for help over time and ultimately offer himself up as the sacrifice to Asuryan in hope that help for the Elves would come in some form.

    Also do you have a quote that I'm unaware of where Asuryan was the one who bestowed the title Phoenix King upon Aenarion? I will even take a quote from The End Times because that was unfortunately the current ending lore officially published. I have never seen where it was stated exactly when and where the title was first used by the Elves in lore.
    And the rest of pretenders, intended to emulate Aenarion to validate their reign.
    Since they needed wards to survive this emulation, they demonstrated they weren’t worthy of his legacy, not under the eyes of Asuryan, at least.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    Before being crowned, they must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    They must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan.


    It is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all.

    Hard to prove that you are pure if you can’t be harmed... because you’re bearing magic wards with that very purpose.

    Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.

    This is exactly what Aenarion did. Die and reborn... which makes sense to be the Phoenix King. You know, that mythical creature that dies before it is reborn.

    In conclusion:

    Since they use wards to protect them from the Flame of Asuryan... they can’t be harmed by the Flame of Asuryan.
    Since they don’t result harmed by the Flame of Asuryan... they aren’t killed, hence they aren’t reborn.
    Since they aren’t reborn... they aren’t Phoenix Kings under the eyes of Asuryan.

    In conclusion, the pretenders CHEATED.
    It's literally described as a dangerous process that the candidates only barely survive thanks to some magical protection. It's still described as a test and one that's potentially lethal.

    Again, no one ever said the Phoenix King needs to be resurrected, though they are literally described as being reborn without any ambiguity.

    Sounds like a kind of transfiguration to me.

    Erminaz said:

    It’s not rocket science to watch the differences between Aenarion’s rite and the rest of pretenders.

    Aenarion never performed a rite, no rite existed at the time for him to perform and he was given no instruction by Asuryan as to how he was to get his acceptance. Everything Aenarion did was his own will in hopes that Asuryan would grant help to the Elves. Even Malekith didn't conduct this supposed rite that didn't exist as Malekith didn't make sacrifices praying for help over time and ultimately offer himself up as the sacrifice to Asuryan in hope that help for the Elves would come in some form.

    Also do you have a quote that I'm unaware of where Asuryan was the one who bestowed the title Phoenix King upon Aenarion? I will even take a quote from The End Times because that was unfortunately the current ending lore officially published. I have never seen where it was stated exactly when and where the title was first used by the Elves in lore.
    And the rest of pretenders, intended to emulate Aenarion to validate their reign.
    Since they needed wards to survive this emulation, they demonstrated they weren’t worthy of his legacy, not under the eyes of Asuryan, at least.
    Again, says who? Malekith was *thrown out* by the fire after nearly dying, so maybe literally immolating yourself isn't the requirement here.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698

    Before being crowned, they must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    They must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan.


    It is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all.


    Hard to prove that you are pure if you can’t be harmed... because you’re bearing magic wards with that very purpose.

    Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.

    This is exactly what Aenarion did. Die and reborn... which makes sense to be the Phoenix King. You know, that mythical creature that dies before it is reborn.

    In conclusion:

    Since they use wards to protect them from the Flame of Asuryan... they can’t be harmed by the Flame of Asuryan.
    Since they don’t result harmed by the Flame of Asuryan... they aren’t killed, hence they aren’t reborn.
    Since they aren’t reborn... they aren’t Phoenix Kings under the eyes of Asuryan.

    In conclusion, the pretenders CHEATED.
    It's literally described as a dangerous process that the candidates only barely survive thanks to some magical protection. It's still described as a test and one that's potentially lethal.

    Again, no one ever said the Phoenix King needs to be resurrected, though they are literally described as being reborn without any ambiguity.

    Sounds like a kind of transfiguration to me.

    Erminaz said:

    It’s not rocket science to watch the differences between Aenarion’s rite and the rest of pretenders.

    Aenarion never performed a rite, no rite existed at the time for him to perform and he was given no instruction by Asuryan as to how he was to get his acceptance. Everything Aenarion did was his own will in hopes that Asuryan would grant help to the Elves. Even Malekith didn't conduct this supposed rite that didn't exist as Malekith didn't make sacrifices praying for help over time and ultimately offer himself up as the sacrifice to Asuryan in hope that help for the Elves would come in some form.

    Also do you have a quote that I'm unaware of where Asuryan was the one who bestowed the title Phoenix King upon Aenarion? I will even take a quote from The End Times because that was unfortunately the current ending lore officially published. I have never seen where it was stated exactly when and where the title was first used by the Elves in lore.
    And the rest of pretenders, intended to emulate Aenarion to validate their reign.
    Since they needed wards to survive this emulation, they demonstrated they weren’t worthy of his legacy, not under the eyes of Asuryan, at least.
    Again, says who? Malekith was *thrown out* by the fire after nearly dying, so maybe literally immolating yourself isn't the requirement here.

    Are you the guy who says I don’t have enough reading comprehension?
    Dude, the very **** HE codex says LITERALLY that you need to be reborn to be a Phoenix King. Which makes sense, because, you know, that’s exactly what the phoenixes do and what Aenarion, the first (and only) Phoenix King did.
    None of the pretenders accomplished this because THEY WERE USING WARDS THAT PROTECTED AGAINST ALL HARM, so they couldn’t die, even less be reborn.

    With wards, no one has nothing to fear, as Caledor II, Tethlis or Aethis demonstrated.
    For Khaine sake, even Malekith, after slaughtering elves in the very temple of Asuryan, was implied (by Gav Thorpe through the chief priest of Asuryan, nothing less) to be able to pass the Flame if he was willing to make the preparations and bear the wards.

    You can say it’s “transfiguration” or whatever you want, dude. It won’t make it more true.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    Before being crowned, they must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    They must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan.


    It is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all.


    Hard to prove that you are pure if you can’t be harmed... because you’re bearing magic wards with that very purpose.

    Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    This is exactly what Aenarion did. Die and reborn... which makes sense to be the Phoenix King. You know, that mythical creature that dies before it is reborn.

    In conclusion:

    Since they use wards to protect them from the Flame of Asuryan... they can’t be harmed by the Flame of Asuryan.
    Since they don’t result harmed by the Flame of Asuryan... they aren’t killed, hence they aren’t reborn.
    Since they aren’t reborn... they aren’t Phoenix Kings under the eyes of Asuryan.

    In conclusion, the pretenders CHEATED.
    It's literally described as a dangerous process that the candidates only barely survive thanks to some magical protection. It's still described as a test and one that's potentially lethal.

    Again, no one ever said the Phoenix King needs to be resurrected, though they are literally described as being reborn without any ambiguity.

    Sounds like a kind of transfiguration to me.

    Erminaz said:

    It’s not rocket science to watch the differences between Aenarion’s rite and the rest of pretenders.

    Aenarion never performed a rite, no rite existed at the time for him to perform and he was given no instruction by Asuryan as to how he was to get his acceptance. Everything Aenarion did was his own will in hopes that Asuryan would grant help to the Elves. Even Malekith didn't conduct this supposed rite that didn't exist as Malekith didn't make sacrifices praying for help over time and ultimately offer himself up as the sacrifice to Asuryan in hope that help for the Elves would come in some form.

    Also do you have a quote that I'm unaware of where Asuryan was the one who bestowed the title Phoenix King upon Aenarion? I will even take a quote from The End Times because that was unfortunately the current ending lore officially published. I have never seen where it was stated exactly when and where the title was first used by the Elves in lore.
    And the rest of pretenders, intended to emulate Aenarion to validate their reign.
    Since they needed wards to survive this emulation, they demonstrated they weren’t worthy of his legacy, not under the eyes of Asuryan, at least.
    Again, says who? Malekith was *thrown out* by the fire after nearly dying, so maybe literally immolating yourself isn't the requirement here.

    Are you the guy who says I don’t have enough reading comprehension?
    Dude, the very **** HE codex says LITERALLY that you need to be reborn to be a Phoenix King. Which makes sense, because, you know, that’s exactly what the phoenixes do and what Aenarion, the first (and only) Phoenix King did.
    None of the pretenders accomplished this because THEY WERE USING WARDS THAT PROTECTED AGAINST ALL HARM, so they couldn’t die, even less be reborn.

    With wards, no one has nothing to fear, as Caledor II, Tethlis or Aethis demonstrated.
    For Khaine sake, even Malekith, after slaughtering elves in the very temple of Asuryan, was implied (by Gav Thorpe through the chief priest of Asuryan, nothing less) to be able to pass the Flame if he was willing to make the preparations and bear the wards.

    You can say it’s “transfiguration” or whatever you want, dude. It won’t make it more true.

    And that self same codex states that these Phoenix Kings are reborn into their role. They pass through the flames in a test and emerge as Phoenix King. It's there in slightly florid English.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    Aenarion wasn’t reborn “into the role” lmao.

    If they wanted to rule Ulthuan, they should have chosen a new title to not emulate the doing of Aenarion. That way, they wouldn’t have needed the wards to pass a test they would never pass without those wards.

    But, obviously, that would have guided Malekith to the throne immediately.
    Removing Malekith from his natural succession was the undoing of the Asur, because they needed to be something that wasn’t meant for them.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    Aenarion wasn’t reborn “into the role” lmao.

    If they wanted to rule Ulthuan, they should have chosen a new title to not emulate the doing of Aenarion. That way, they wouldn’t have needed the wards to pass a test they would never pass without those wards.

    But, obviously, that would have guided Malekith to the throne immediately.
    Removing Malekith from his natural succession was the undoing of the Asur, because they needed to be something that wasn’t meant for them.

    No, Aenarion was declared Phoenix King by either Caledor or Astarielle because they saw Asuryan's blessing inside him. There's your requirement: have Asuryan's blessing. We know are least Finubar had it and Malekith didn't.

    "Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King"

    That's a pretty definite statement. Besides, if we went by "natural succession" then the throne would go to Morelion anyway.
  • Icebern12Icebern12 Registered Users Posts: 202

    Icebern12 said:

    I

    I’m not going to read that wall of text, and less if you describe it as a rant, obviously.

    I will go to sleep, happy, knowing that my king is the one true chosen. This is the canon.
    Now rant all what you want, or go to GW and kill them if you wish, but Malekith is the true king of Ulthuan, and it was always that way for many of us.

    😊

    Dude my first miniature army when I was a kid were the dark elves, if you had told me then the writers would make Malekith years later the Phoenix king I would have been ****, because it makes no sense and **** on Malekith and the dark elves as much as on the high elves.

    The new star wars movies are canon, and they are still universally hated by the people who care because the plot is absolute garbage made by talentless hacks. If you are happy thinking Malekith was the true phoenix king because end times says so then all the power to you. It is still dumb and bad writing that does a disservice to both factions and to who Malekith is and what he represents, which I suspect is one of the reasons why total war games ignore it.

    Also if you can't read for two minutes max a text then now I understand better why you could be happy with a story such as end times: khaine.
    Don't engage him... His cringey Dark Elf "roleplay" should be all you need to realise that he isn't worth the effort...
    I would rather have roleplayers than people talking to others like they are stupid... and using ellipsis... constantly... to make everything seem more... dramatic......
    I think you're overlooking the fact that, in addition to doing the cringey roleplay, you also talk to others like they are stupid.
    I suspect that the OP is either a troll, a bored guy who likes to create this baiting posts, or a guy who genuinely wants to learn more. But I have no evidence to demonstrate one thing or another, so I prefer to give the benefit of doubt.

    And for the rest of people, if I thought that, I wouldn’t spend my time discussing these subjects.
    I can think that other people is wrong, but I haven’t seen evidences to justify they are stupid, at least not for me.

    Remember that these kind of debates can be very passionate.
    So you don't think saying things like "Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us." is talking to people as if they're stupid then?
    Deliberately blind, not stupid. It’s different. They didn’t deny the truth because they are unable to understand it, but because they aren’t willing to do it.

    Hopefully, this debate has served for something, and people like Nemo can see now that this ambiguity wasn’t just part of the End Times, but deliberately put since decades before to inflame the rivalry between fans.

    I always wanted Malekith to reunite the elves, but to be fair, I always suspected that when the time came, it could be him or Tyrion who would do it.
    So, even if I saw Malekith as the rightful leader of all elves, something in my inn felt this ambiguity too, and knew that it could have been Tyrion.
    There's "deliberate ambiguity", which was around 80% of the actual lore and background on the topic, and there's you screaming about how blind and short-sighted we are about something that you already stated was made to be ambiguous with no clear answer.

    Yes, the writers wrote the "True Phoenix King" controversy to make the story interesting and to invest fans. No one denies that. What you're doing here is LARPing out an argument that needs some of the worst writing in Warhammer Fantasy's run to be justified, ignoring the rest of the Elves' lore all the back to 4th and throughout all the novellas and books outside of the main army books. It doesn't paint Malekith in a flattering light. Hell, even his own books don't make him out to be the destined hero he thought he was meant to be.

    At the end of the day, barring End Times, the debate was and remains a debate, but this idea that "Helf fanboys" just don't have an argument or are willingly ignorant is supremely dishonest and untrue.
    Until I showed the codex, you didn’t want to believe when I said that even HE codex stated how the Phoenix Kings cheated the rite.

    Now you can say it wasn’t cheating, but how this debate has evolved has showed me that you guys know acknowledge the fact that, much before the End Times, the Phoenix Kings were showed as imposters from an objective perspective, at least when we compare them with Aenarion, the first Phoenix King.
    That is enough for me.
    Except the codex literally *doesn't call it cheating.* It calls the process *a trial* that the candidates *barely survive from* and *face judgement* while undertaking it. The codex isn't saying what you think it does.
    I have a quandary which, perhaps, you could help me with since you seem to be quoting directly from the army book. I'm trying to find the bit that actually mentions how this process works and the only bit I can find in the 8th edition book that mentions it is on page 11 in an insert called "The Isles of Flame and Rebirth". This states; "When a new king is crowned, he bathes in this white-hot flames, passing miraculously unscathed through the inferno before emerging to be clas in ceremonial robes and the great feathered cloak of kingship."

    Is there another part which addresses this from which you're sourcing your quotes? Or are they from an older edition?

    I find this quote interesting because it leads me to one of two conclusions, depending on your answer to the above questions; Either a) That's the only word on the matter in 8th edition which means that *in the 8th edition lore* there is no magical protection being provided and b) If it is describing it in those terms there but does later acknowledge that they have magical help it would indicate to me that the blurb I just quoted from is the "High Elf propaganda" version of what the Phoenix King is supposed to have done... In which case having the assistance of mages would at least imply, to my mind, that it was, in fact, a case of cheating.
    This is what the very first High Elf army book from 4th edition (1993) has to say:

    “Elf astrologers and geomancers studied the portents to divine the best time for the new king to begin his reign, and calculated the best time for him to pass through the flame. On the day of his coronation the Priests of Asuryan chanted the warding spells that enabled Bel Shanaar to pass unscathed through the flame."

    In contrast, this is what happened to Aenarion:

    "Aenarion kept his promise and threw himself into the raging, white-hot inferno. Agony wracked his body. Pain seared his limbs. His hair caught fire. His heart stopped. Those who watched thought he was dead. Then a miracle occurred.

    Aenarion refused to die. Slowly, painfully, he staggered through the fire. As he did so his burned skin healed and his scorched hair re-grew. He emerged from the flame unscathed, transformed by the cleansing fire.”

    It's pretty obvious you're meant to die in fire and be reborn, just like a phoenix. This is the official High Elf army book, the highest level of canon and you can't dismiss it as Dark Elf propaganda. The very same army book that created the office of Phoenix King says they cheat the flames of Asuryan.

    This lore is repeated word for word in 5th edition (1997). 6th edition (2002) is a little odd in that the history section is written in first person from the perspective of a White Lion. He only mentions the flames of Asuryan once in passing, but he's a bodyguard and not a mage so he wouldn't know anything about it.

    The 7th edition (2007) High Elf army book flat out admits every Phoenix King since Aenarion cheated the test:

    "The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and the he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.

    Only twice in the history of the High Elves have persons attempted to pass through the flames of asuryan without the consenting vote of the Council of Ulthuan and lived. The first was Aenarion the Defender, who emerged the first Phoenix King, while the second was Malekith the Great Betrayer"

    This is from The Sundering trilogy written in 2008 during 7th edition. It happens right before Malekith walks into the flames. Mianderlin is the chief priest of Asuryan:

    ""Asuryan will not accept you!” cried Mianderin, falling to his knees in front of Malekith, his hands clasped in pleading. “You have spilt blood in his sacred temple! We have not cast the proper enchantments to protect you from the flames. You cannot do this!”"

    8th edition (2013) removes these references which is probably why everyone seems to think it was invented out of nowhere by End Times in 2014.

    To recap the dates: the Phoenix Kings have canonically and explicitly been frauds for 20 years (1993-2013), 8th edition said nothing about the topic for a year and a half (May 2013 - Dec 2014), then End Times returned to the status quo. They didn't spontaneously become fakes in "the terrible End Times"; they have been fakes for as long as they have existed.
    As I mentioned previously, the act of passing through the flames is a sacrifice, the guy who is supposed to seek the blessing of the God of rulership proves his worth by immolating himself, because he puts the good of his people before his own, and Asuryan rewards said person if he considers him worthy.

    It's hilarious you mention how the phoenix kings after Aenarion used wards so they are not true phoenix kings when Malekith put the whole nation through unprecedented turnmoil by making heretic cults fester and assassinating political rivals in the very temple of Asuryan. No wonder he burned. In the novels even when Malekith can't even move in his bed from the pain he says he is the true phoenix king because he passed the fire without wards like his father. Yeah dude you did and now you are close to a big piece of coal for it.

    That the other phoenix kings didn't pass the fire without wards doesn't make Malekith the true King because he did. All it proves is that we know Malekith was unworthy looking at how it went and the others are an unknown because they used wards, the are not true phoenix kings and neither is Malekith.

    But then you say Malekith proved his worth because the fire didn't kill him so he stronk, therefore he deserved the throne. You are absolutely right... if we use khainite logic, you are not graced with power, you seize it by force and make everyone your bitch because you can. Which is the principle that governs druchii society and hierarchies.

    But Ulthuan or Asuryan and the Cadai don't work that way nor they should. Ulthuan has twin thrones and leadership is something the gods grace you with.

    You say Malekith is the only one who could save the elves from chaos and they had to unite under him as if that was objective truth. It isn't, that is what Malekith said to keep going at Ulthuan no matter how many times he lost, because like a true khainite if you lose that doesn't prove you are wrong, that just proves you are not yet strong enough so you can always have another go in the future, this os what malekith did and this is what distorted the dark elves through millenia to make them so incredibly cruel and depraved.

    All Malekith did was weaken the elves through the millenia with his plots and invasions of Ulthuan. Even in the god awfully written end times the plot can't hide such fact, they simply ignore it.

    Again, Malekith is not a good dude, he has done pretty much any evil thing you can think of to get his way. Malekith is not a dude who just needs to distance himself from the bad influences in his life, Malekith is evil and will do what he thinks needs to be done to get what he wants.

    By the way, in the sundering novels you mentioned in the battle of Maledor Malekith realizes he has not been chosen by asuryan but damned by him. Because until that point the dude kept telling himself he was the true king. He wasn't. After that he tries to undo the vortex to let chaos win because if he can't have Ulthuan nobody will. But he fails also at this thanks to caledor dragontamer and he "only" provokes a gogamtoc earthquake that almost sinks the whole conti

    The guy who is the only one who can save the elves from chaos ladies and gentlemen.

    Icebern12 said:

    I

    I’m not going to read that wall of text, and less if you describe it as a rant, obviously.

    I will go to sleep, happy, knowing that my king is the one true chosen. This is the canon.
    Now rant all what you want, or go to GW and kill them if you wish, but Malekith is the true king of Ulthuan, and it was always that way for many of us.

    😊

    Dude my first miniature army when I was a kid were the dark elves, if you had told me then the writers would make Malekith years later the Phoenix king I would have been ****, because it makes no sense and **** on Malekith and the dark elves as much as on the high elves.

    The new star wars movies are canon, and they are still universally hated by the people who care because the plot is absolute garbage made by talentless hacks. If you are happy thinking Malekith was the true phoenix king because end times says so then all the power to you. It is still dumb and bad writing that does a disservice to both factions and to who Malekith is and what he represents, which I suspect is one of the reasons why total war games ignore it.

    Also if you can't read for two minutes max a text then now I understand better why you could be happy with a story such as end times: khaine.
    Don't engage him... His cringey Dark Elf "roleplay" should be all you need to realise that he isn't worth the effort...
    I would rather have roleplayers than people talking to others like they are stupid... and using ellipsis... constantly... to make everything seem more... dramatic......
    I think you're overlooking the fact that, in addition to doing the cringey roleplay, you also talk to others like they are stupid.
    I suspect that the OP is either a troll, a bored guy who likes to create this baiting posts, or a guy who genuinely wants to learn more. But I have no evidence to demonstrate one thing or another, so I prefer to give the benefit of doubt.

    And for the rest of people, if I thought that, I wouldn’t spend my time discussing these subjects.
    I can think that other people is wrong, but I haven’t seen evidences to justify they are stupid, at least not for me.

    Remember that these kind of debates can be very passionate.
    So you don't think saying things like "Only a blind denies this in 2021. Cry, babies, cry all night if you wish, but the truth was always there for us." is talking to people as if they're stupid then?
    Deliberately blind, not stupid. It’s different. They didn’t deny the truth because they are unable to understand it, but because they aren’t willing to do it.

    Hopefully, this debate has served for something, and people like Nemo can see now that this ambiguity wasn’t just part of the End Times, but deliberately put since decades before to inflame the rivalry between fans.

    I always wanted Malekith to reunite the elves, but to be fair, I always suspected that when the time came, it could be him or Tyrion who would do it.
    So, even if I saw Malekith as the rightful leader of all elves, something in my inn felt this ambiguity too, and knew that it could have been Tyrion.
    There's "deliberate ambiguity", which was around 80% of the actual lore and background on the topic, and there's you screaming about how blind and short-sighted we are about something that you already stated was made to be ambiguous with no clear answer.

    Yes, the writers wrote the "True Phoenix King" controversy to make the story interesting and to invest fans. No one denies that. What you're doing here is LARPing out an argument that needs some of the worst writing in Warhammer Fantasy's run to be justified, ignoring the rest of the Elves' lore all the back to 4th and throughout all the novellas and books outside of the main army books. It doesn't paint Malekith in a flattering light. Hell, even his own books don't make him out to be the destined hero he thought he was meant to be.

    At the end of the day, barring End Times, the debate was and remains a debate, but this idea that "Helf fanboys" just don't have an argument or are willingly ignorant is supremely dishonest and untrue.
    Until I showed the codex, you didn’t want to believe when I said that even HE codex stated how the Phoenix Kings cheated the rite.

    Now you can say it wasn’t cheating, but how this debate has evolved has showed me that you guys know acknowledge the fact that, much before the End Times, the Phoenix Kings were showed as imposters from an objective perspective, at least when we compare them with Aenarion, the first Phoenix King.
    That is enough for me.
    Not doing the same thing as Aenarion does in no way mean they are an impostor. It might mean that the nature of their powers and reigns are different, but the circumstances were also greatly different. We know for certain that Asuryan granted them power
    Icebern12 said:

    Part of the irony was that Malekith arguably was the rightful king at the point the question first came up (at least until his half siblings were found) and, given his character at the time, probably would have made a good job of it. However he made himself unsuitable by letting his bitterness fester into hatred and with the assassination of Bel Shannar and the slaughter in the Temple of Asuryan.

    Even not withstanding that the Everqueen was an inherited title it’s worth noting that the Princes started off just as the companions of Aenarion but immediately made their own positions inherited while saying the King should be elected. You don’t see any of the Princes saying their nobles should vote for their replacement!

    It’s also notable of course that they went right back to primogeniture for Phoenix Kings as soon as Malekith was safely out the way (not that that ended well either).

    The hypocrisy of the Asur and the fact that Malekith was right originally but would be a nightmare if he won now (or to a lesser extent during the Sundering) is what makes the story so poignant.

    And it doesn’t even matter if you want to hide your head in the land to avoid the End Times.
    The very HE codex shows us how the imposters cheated the rite.

    Mental gymnastics will say they didn’t cheat. If they sleep better telling that to themselves, I have no clue, but this lore was there for decades.
    The first time I debated this was with my cousin, who collected HE, like 15 years or more ago. And yet, Asur fans never cease to amuse me with their negation of the truth.

    Because it's not cheating. No amount of magic is going to stop a god from doing whatever they want. The next Phoenix Kings were still judged, and they might've been judged harshly, but the High Elves made their choice and Asuryan decided to accept it with the consequences on their shoulders. It's not that hard to see.
    It’s not necessarily *cheating* but it’s not really comparable to Aenarion either which is kind of the point.

    Aenarion sacrificed himself expecting to die in exchange for Asuryan helping his people and was resurrected and empowered to become Asuryan’s help himself.

    The later Phoenix Kings took the symbolism of it to legitimise their power but without any of the risk or humility. The fact that Caledor II got through shows that.
    I disagree, the nobles didn't choose Malekith for various reasons:

    1. Aenarion was **** insane at the end of his reign, and the princes feared the prophecy of doom which touched his descendants.
    2. The princes already despised and mistrusted Morathi.
    3. Malekith had been brought up by Morathi
    4. If Malekith was made Phoenix King he would have to bang his half-sister Yvraine.
    5. The princes were war-weary after the apocalyptic fight against chaos and wanted an era of peace and rebuilding. People are not machines, there is a point war exhausts a society and choosing the son of the previous guy who was obssessed with it doesn't bode well for the future.

    All of these points were valid concerns, and turns out they were completely right with each and every one of them. You could tell me rejecting Malekith was what paved the path for his resentment and eventual betrayal. I also disagree on this.

    People think he is a tragic figure, a sort of darth vader that was once a great hero who made bad choices and became a villain. False, the similarities end at the life support armors.

    Malekith was always ambitious and everything he did he did it for his own glory, in the novels when he arrives at the colonies he sees a city being overrun by greenskins, he tells those people the city will burn and they will die as he watches unless they swear fealty to him.

    Malekith was never a hero, he played the role of hero of ulthuan because that suited for the time his aims to make a name for himself in the colonies. Just as he centuries later played the role of uncorruptible judge while he "purged" the heretic cults from ulthuan that his mother had made fester, when in reality he was purging people loyal to the phoenix crown to the applause of the nation by accusing them of being heretics, weakening the nation further while he kept strengthening the cults that supported him in the shadows for his eventual coup.

    When he finds the dwarfs he discovers two other elves who survived a shipwreck already in the court of karaz a karak, does he share the discovery of the dwarfs with them? No he has them assassinated so they don't steal his glory. He murders bel-shannar when he appoints Imrik and not him as the general that will lead all the armies of ulthuan in all out war against the cults. And so on and so forth. Getting barbecued in the flame was not his downfall, that was like the visible change in his aspect.

    Malekith was never a guy who just let his ambition consume him, or his mother's influence corrupt him. Malekith was born and brought up by the worst of snakes in a court that worshipped the elven god of murder. The poison didn't enter little by little as the centuries passed, the poison was in his very bones before he first picked up a sword.

    People mention that the other Phoenix Kings didn't enter the flames like Aenarion did, this is true. Aenarion was a true phoenix king while the others "cheated". However let's not forget that entering the flames is a symbol of the king sacrificing himself for the good of his people, which is what every good king must do. It's hilarious then that this is an argument brought up by Malekith's fanboys when the dude literally entered the flames as the princes who didn't support him and were suspect on the sudden "suicide" of bel-shanaar (big duh) were being murdered in that very temple by his followers. In other words the dude put the whole island upside down and murdered countless people to make himself king, he put himself first before his people for his own ambition and then went to seek the approval of the king of the gods, the embodiment of virtuous governance and authority... What an idiot.

    Even in naggaroth malekith totally doesn't give a **** about the dark elves, any dark elf fan who knows the army books knows this. They are a tool, more precisely a sword, to wield against Ulthuan to get what he wants because it is always about him.

    I mean he tried to undo the vortex to drown Ulthuan in demons when he lost the civil war against Caledor I for **** sake. What a great leader he is exactly what Asuryan wants right?

    So the phoenix kings were not true phoenix kings as Aenarion was, this is true, however neither was Malekith. And if we compare Malekith with each of the others, I think they are closer to Asuryan's standard than the other guy (well except maybe Caledor II, but we don't talk about that guy).

    Even if these Phoenix kings are not as divinely appointed as Aenarion they still received signs of favour, like Caledor I in the battle of Maledor, when a vision of lileath made him prevail against Malekith and his dragon in their duel.

    And even if we assume that not making malekith king paved the way to his eventual betrayal with this knowledge would you have chosen Malekith then as king? I wouldn't, knowing this guy will eventually go bonkers if he doesn't get what he wants is not a reason to then give him the crown like a spoiled child. Trying to avoid an evil by giving the crown to the guy who will unleash it is a big mistake.

    All one needs to understand about malekith is that he is a dude who will stop at nothing to get what he wants. Not every villainous origin is, or should be, a fall from grace. Some people are just entitled enough to believe that they're owed the world, and see no problem with trampling over anybody they have to in order to get what's 'theirs'.

    I like Malekith, I mean he is a total evil ****, but I like what his character represents: brutal, uncompromising strength, out to claim the throne by right of force, without pretense or prevarication.
    At heart, Malekith is not a complicated character. He has complex schemes sometimes, but he himself is refreshingly simple; he's a warrior prince who believes he deserves to rule by right of birth and talent, and whose monstrous ego is so unbound that he won't stop for anything and will tear the world to shreds if that means getting his way.

    "If they shall not bow to me, the rightful ruler of Ulthuan, then I shall see each tower crumble and every soul scourged in pain until they beg for my rule" - Malekith the good king who looks after his people.
    A lot of what you say here is simply false. For one, Malekith did fight against the actual cults, where did you get the stuff about defeating political enemies? Malekith disliked the cults as much as anyone else, at the time he fought them he did not even know Morathi was their leader. Even after he learned this he laid siege to his own capital Anlec, defeating the cultists and retaking the city. There is no ambiguity here, Malekith fought the cults and did not pruge Bel Shanaar loyalists. He was loyal to Bel Shanaar at this point still.

    About Malekith having been a hero or not, it's a bit more complicated. Yes, he was always an arrogant douchebag, he even killed a few elves for his goals. He did however fight the enemies of the elves, defeated countless greenskins and beastmen across the old world, and built a true friendship with the dwarfs, Snorri Whitebeard in particular. Flawed for sure, but pretty similiar to Tyrion overall.

    Also about his fall: Malekith had no intention to kill Bel Shanaar at all, ever, until the very day it happened. It was not a betrayal long in the making(by himself). For Malekith it was very spontanous and a shock reaction, although manipulated by Morathi who clearly had been planning for something like this. Still, a lot of events happened between the time Bel Shanaar was crowned, and the day Malekith killed him to put him into a state where he would be willing to do it. More than 1000 years of manipulation by Morathi, loss, hopelessness and visions of chaos with the Circlet of Iron.

    I'm not saying Malekith was ever good. But his betrayal was far from guaranteed, and his evil and hatred was a result of other events, not something he always had or that came immedeatly after Bel Shanaar was crowned.
    Um, no. After capturing Morathi they both plot together the plan. Malekith will bring her in chains to tor anroc to be a prisoner of bel-shanaar, in that way Malekith will only increase bel-shanaar and the rest of the elven princes trust while the cults keep festering. Then he acusses the Anars and others of being cultists, when they were the complete opposite and still trusted Malekith thinking him you know, not **** evil, actually helping him take Anlec previously.

    So in the years Morathi spent as a prisoner of bel-shaanar Malekith was silencing political opponents while he increased the cults' influence. There are true defeated amd captured cultists before he took Anlec on his campaign there that end up in his retinue when he travels to the Temple of asuryan to make his failed coup, geee I wonder how they got there.

    How do I know this? All this is in the sundering novels and also the armybooks with less detail.

    Second Malekith has always had virtues of course, virtues for war: he lead from the front, never showed fear, had a sound strategic mind and discipline. All great useful qualities that can only end up blowing up in the face of elvenkind when he has no other moral virtues or contraints at all. As if all those qualities were bestowed by the elf god of murder through the curse of khaine put morathi's upbringing and you really have the perfect cocktail for what Malekith ended up being.

    And no, Malekith's plan was to create enough turnmoil to get bel-shaanar appoint him as general of all the armies of Ulthuan with full powers to stamp the cults however he wished. Malekith then would have used those powers to have fun killing whoever he wished until at one point he would have repñaced bel-shaanar when his power base was strong enough through murder of innocents and deceit. He got bel-shanaar to summon the princes at the shrine of asuryan to announce malekith's appoontment but just before traveling there bel-shanaar told him he was going to appoint Imrik as the general. So malekith lost his marbles in front of bel-shanaar, then he left and consulted Morathi in her cell and she told him to kill him immediately and malekith did just that before bel-shanaar could announce it - but the written message had already been dispatched, which would ultimately make the surviving loyal princes to appoint Imrik as Phoenix King.

    Anyway, malekith changed his plan, he would go to the Temple and announce the princes bel-shanaar was a cultist and took his own life in shame when Malekith confronted him about it. And we all know the story aftet that.

    Point being, Malekith has absolutely no moral compass whatsoever before even getting crispy, as we can read in the novels. And he did use the cults his mother created to weaken the Phoenix crown, because it wasn't his and he wanted it.

    As for the circlet of iron that was like the last straw, but it is pretty certain with or without circlet sooner or later his betrayal would have happened.
  • Lord_ZarkovLord_Zarkov Registered Users Posts: 380
    Malekith was originally legit about purging the cults right up until he confronted Morathi as their leader. Unfortunately she was able to sway him during their confrontation and it all went downhill from there, but it very nearly went the other way.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 7,282
    Because Elves are weak

    So weak of mind that they cannot even heal a itty bitty burn scar

    pathetic


    "Yum Yum Ariel stew"

    Supreme Matriarch Of Nan-Gau...

    Master Of The Storm Winds...

    Daughter Of The Dragon Emperor!
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698

    Aenarion wasn’t reborn “into the role” lmao.

    If they wanted to rule Ulthuan, they should have chosen a new title to not emulate the doing of Aenarion. That way, they wouldn’t have needed the wards to pass a test they would never pass without those wards.

    But, obviously, that would have guided Malekith to the throne immediately.
    Removing Malekith from his natural succession was the undoing of the Asur, because they needed to be something that wasn’t meant for them.

    No, Aenarion was declared Phoenix King by either Caledor or Astarielle because they saw Asuryan's blessing inside him. There's your requirement: have Asuryan's blessing. We know are least Finubar had it and Malekith didn't.

    "Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King"

    That's a pretty definite statement. Besides, if we went by "natural succession" then the throne would go to Morelion anyway.
    That’s not my requirement. The Phoenix Guard’s halberd also had Asuryan’s blessing, that’s not a big thing.

    My requirement, and most importantly, Phoenix King’s requirement IN HE CODEX, NOTHING LESS, is that the pretender must die and be reborn through the Flame.
    Now, I know you would like that your comments would be taken into account as equally loreful as those of Gav Thorpe or the HE codex... however, that’s not the case.

    There is no debate possible. The Phoenix King definition in the HE clearly discards the rest of pretenders as imposters who didn’t really pass the test.
    They did something symbolic and received some blessings (and maybe curse for what we know, who knows), but for sure, they didn’t commit the same ritual that Aenarion did.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231

    My requirement, and most importantly, Phoenix King’s requirement IN HE CODEX, NOTHING LESS, is that the pretender must die and be reborn through the Flame.

    *Which* codex? There is no *the* codex.

  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698

    My requirement, and most importantly, Phoenix King’s requirement IN HE CODEX, NOTHING LESS, is that the pretender must die and be reborn through the Flame.

    *Which* codex? There is no *the* codex.

    HE codex, High Elves codex, not The Codex.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231

    My requirement, and most importantly, Phoenix King’s requirement IN HE CODEX, NOTHING LESS, is that the pretender must die and be reborn through the Flame.

    *Which* codex? There is no *the* codex.

    HE codex, High Elves codex, not The Codex.
    WHICH ONE? There are 8 of them. They all contradict and retcon each other. Which one are you taking that quote from?
  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231
    There are 5 of them, rather.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    edited July 25

    My requirement, and most importantly, Phoenix King’s requirement IN HE CODEX, NOTHING LESS, is that the pretender must die and be reborn through the Flame.

    *Which* codex? There is no *the* codex.

    HE codex, High Elves codex, not The Codex.
    WHICH ONE? There are 8 of them. They all contradict and retcon each other. Which one are you taking that quote from?
    No HE codex has ever retconned that the Phoenix Kings using the wards, while Aenarion passed without protection, so I don’t know what the hell are you talking about.
    I suggest you to read them before saying that, because in this concrete subject it has never been contradictory.

    Concretely, what I was citing was:

    Blood of Aenarion (Novel), by William King.
    1a Chapter 11
    2:Warhammer Armies: High Elves (7th Edition)
    2a pg. 15

    I put in here a complete review explaining how and where the wards have been detailed, so use it if you want to check by yourself contradictions about the pretenders using wards: you won’t find them. It has been constant during more than 20 years of setting.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    edited July 25
    Starting from the beginning, the first 3 editions of Warhammer were light on lore and didn't have army books for each race since the game was small enough back then they didn't need to. For example, neither Aenarion nor Malekith existed in 3rd edition, and the office of Phoenix King didn't exist as we know it, so we're going to fast forward to 4th edition.

    This is what the very first High Elf army book from 4th edition (1993) has to say:

    Elf astrologers and geomancers studied the portents to divine the best time for the new king to begin his reign, and calculated the best time for him to pass through the flame. On the day of his coronation the Priests of Asuryan chanted the warding spells that enabled Bel Shanaar to pass unscathed through the flame."


    In contrast, this is what happened to Aenarion:

    Aenarion kept his promise and threw himself into the raging, white-hot inferno. Agony wracked his body. Pain seared his limbs. His hair caught fire. His heart stopped. Those who watched thought he was dead. Then a miracle occurred.

    Aenarion refused to die. Slowly, painfully, he staggered through the fire. As he did so his burned skin healed and his scorched hair re-grew. He emerged from the flame unscathed, transformed by the cleansing fire.
    "


    It's pretty obvious you're meant to die in fire and be reborn, just like a phoenix. This is the official High Elf army book, the highest level of canon and you can't dismiss it as Dark Elf propaganda. The very same army book that created the office of Phoenix King says they cheat the flames of Asuryan.

    This lore is repeated word for word in 5th edition (1997). 6th edition (2002) is a little odd in that the history section is written in first person from the perspective of a White Lion. He only mentions the flames of Asuryan once in passing, but he's a bodyguard and not a mage so he wouldn't know anything about it.

    The 7th edition (2007) High Elf army book flat out admits every Phoenix King since Aenarion cheated the test:

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and the he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.

    Only twice in the history of the High Elves have persons attempted to pass through the flames of asuryan without the consenting vote of the Council of Ulthuan and lived. The first was Aenarion the Defender, who emerged the first Phoenix King, while the second was Malekith the Great Betrayer.
    "


    This is from The Sundering trilogy written in 2008 during 7th edition. It happens right before Malekith walks into the flames. Mianderlin is the chief priest of Asuryan:

    "Asuryan will not accept you!” cried Mianderin, falling to his knees in front of Malekith, his hands clasped in pleading. “You have spilt blood in his sacred temple! We have not cast the proper enchantments to protect you from the flames. You cannot do this!”"


    8th edition (2013) removes these references which is probably why everyone seems to think it was invented out of nowhere by End Times in 2014.

    To recap the dates: the Phoenix Kings have canonically and explicitly been frauds for 20 years (1993-2013), 8th edition said nothing about the topic for a year and a half (May 2013 - Dec 2014), then End Times returned to the status quo. They didn't spontaneously become fakes in "the terrible End Times"; they have been fakes for as long as they have existed.
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231

    My requirement, and most importantly, Phoenix King’s requirement IN HE CODEX, NOTHING LESS, is that the pretender must die and be reborn through the Flame.

    *Which* codex? There is no *the* codex.

    HE codex, High Elves codex, not The Codex.
    WHICH ONE? There are 8 of them. They all contradict and retcon each other. Which one are you taking that quote from?
    No HE codex has ever retconned that the Phoenix Kings using the wards, while Aenarion passed without protection, so I don’t know what the hell are you talking about.
    I suggest you to read them before saying that, because in this concrete subject it has never been contradictory.

    Concretely, what I was citing was:

    Blood of Aenarion (Novel), by William King.
    1a Chapter 11
    2:Warhammer Armies: High Elves (7th Edition)
    2a pg. 15

    I put in here a complete review explaining how and where the wards have been detailed, so use it if you want to check by yourself contradictions about the pretenders using wards: you won’t find them. It has been constant during more than 20 years of setting.
    You've made a bit of a mistake here; Easily done but it appears that you've copied a citation from the wiki, which can be edited by anybody, saying that something is stated in Chapter 11 of Blood of Aenarion but, when I've just been and checked that chapter, it doesn't say anything of the sort; It's about somebody outfitting Tyrion and Teclis with some new clothes. There *is* a brief mention of there being various titles one addresses the Phoenix King as at different times... One suspects the citation was probably a reference to that which you mistook as being one that would support your argument.

    You've then gone on to quote something from the 7th edition army book which stopped being canon as soon as the 8th edition army book was released.

    I'm going to be honest; I don't believe any of the times you talk about the codex backing you up and how people should read the codex to see you're right you've actually got information from "the codex". I think you're getting absolutely everything from the wiki.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202

    Aenarion wasn’t reborn “into the role” lmao.

    If they wanted to rule Ulthuan, they should have chosen a new title to not emulate the doing of Aenarion. That way, they wouldn’t have needed the wards to pass a test they would never pass without those wards.

    But, obviously, that would have guided Malekith to the throne immediately.
    Removing Malekith from his natural succession was the undoing of the Asur, because they needed to be something that wasn’t meant for them.

    No, Aenarion was declared Phoenix King by either Caledor or Astarielle because they saw Asuryan's blessing inside him. There's your requirement: have Asuryan's blessing. We know are least Finubar had it and Malekith didn't.

    "Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King"

    That's a pretty definite statement. Besides, if we went by "natural succession" then the throne would go to Morelion anyway.
    That’s not my requirement. The Phoenix Guard’s halberd also had Asuryan’s blessing, that’s not a big thing.

    My requirement, and most importantly, Phoenix King’s requirement IN HE CODEX, NOTHING LESS, is that the pretender must die and be reborn through the Flame.
    Now, I know you would like that your comments would be taken into account as equally loreful as those of Gav Thorpe or the HE codex... however, that’s not the case.

    There is no debate possible. The Phoenix King definition in the HE clearly discards the rest of pretenders as imposters who didn’t really pass the test.
    They did something symbolic and received some blessings (and maybe curse for what we know, who knows), but for sure, they didn’t commit the same ritual that Aenarion did.
    The codex literally states that the Phoenix King is reborn as the Phoenix King after surviving a trial in the flames. That's their process.
  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698
    edited July 26
    Comment removed.

    Do you need a screenshot or something dude? Do you think that I invented all of that?

    Do you think that because the 8th HE codex didn’t mention the wards, does it mean they weren’t using them, when every **** codex edition and novel since the very beginning in 1993 mentioned the wards?
    And if you want to bring 8th edition... the End Times are a supplement for 8th.
    Post edited by dge1 on
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231
    edited July 26

    Comment removed.

    Do you need a screenshot or something dude? Do you think that I invented all of that?

    Do you think that because the 8th HE codex didn’t mention the wards, does it mean they weren’t using them, when every **** codex edition and novel since the very beginning in 1993 mentioned the wards?
    And if you want to bring 8th edition... the End Times are a supplement for 8th.

    Yes, provide me with a screenshot of Blood of Aenarion saying that in Chapter 11. I think you'll find it very difficult to do so given that, as I made abundantly clear, I read the chapter and it does not say that.

    It doesn't matter what anything going back to 1993 mentioned. Only 8th edition is canon.

    You are correct; End Times is a supplement for 8th and makes it clear that Malekith was Asuryan's chosen and the other Phoenix Kings were cursed. I've already pointed that out earlier in this very thread. Not sure why you keep bringing up older, non-canon editions when you have the definitive and final canon source of WHFB to say you're right.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202
    edited July 26

    Comment removed.

    Do you need a screenshot or something dude? Do you think that I invented all of that?

    Do you think that because the 8th HE codex didn’t mention the wards, does it mean they weren’t using them, when every **** codex edition and novel since the very beginning in 1993 mentioned the wards?
    And if you want to bring 8th edition... the End Times are a supplement for 8th.

    Your source, emphasis mine:

    Before being crowned, they must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan.

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    They use the wards to protect the elect from dying in a process that's described as a dangerous test. What you're looking for is in the citation you keep bringing up.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • drizzlynewtdrizzlynewt Registered Users Posts: 231
    edited July 26

    Comment removed.

    Do you need a screenshot or something dude? Do you think that I invented all of that?

    Do you think that because the 8th HE codex didn’t mention the wards, does it mean they weren’t using them, when every **** codex edition and novel since the very beginning in 1993 mentioned the wards?
    And if you want to bring 8th edition... the End Times are a supplement for 8th.

    Your source, emphasis mine:

    Before being crowned, they must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan.

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    They use the wards to protect the elect from dying in a process that's described as a dangerous test. What you're looking for is in the citation you keep bringing up.
    You can't expect him to actually read the paragraph that the sentence he's quoting thinking it backs up his point is part of though because he hasn't actually read any of the books they come from.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,202
    edited July 26

    Comment removed.

    Do you need a screenshot or something dude? Do you think that I invented all of that?

    Do you think that because the 8th HE codex didn’t mention the wards, does it mean they weren’t using them, when every **** codex edition and novel since the very beginning in 1993 mentioned the wards?
    And if you want to bring 8th edition... the End Times are a supplement for 8th.

    Your source, emphasis mine:

    Before being crowned, they must pass through the Sacred Flame unharmed to prove their purity under the eyes of Asuryan.

    The ceremony in which the new Phoenix King is crowned is a secret, mystical and dangerous affair, and it is only thanks to the ministrations of the Sapherian wizards that the new Phoenix King survives it at all. As the powerful mages utter incantations that will protect the supplicant, he is ushered into the fires of rebirth and he faces his sternest test. Alone, the candidate must pass through the flames of Asuryan and in so doing he is reborn as the Phoenix King.


    They use the wards to protect the elect from dying in a process that's described as a dangerous test. What you're looking for is in the citation you keep bringing up.
    You can't expect him to actually read the paragraph that the sentence he's quoting thinking it backs up his point is part of though because he hasn't actually read any of the books they come from.
    That I've somewhat realized for awhile now, but I feel like it needs to be pointed out how the passage isn't saying what he think it does. I know that some Dark Elf codices state that the High Elves messed with the flames to ruin Malekith (without any explanation to the how) but nothing ever about the wards being a cheat.
    Post edited by dge1 on
This discussion has been closed.