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Rune of Negation changes to represent TT game better.

Lord_DrakkenLord_Drakken Registered Users Posts: 117
I like the new dwarf runic magic system. It has variety and the power level seems moderate which is good.

On Table Top Dwarfs have a strong ability to dispel enemy magic spells. In other words, they completely block spells a lot of the time. The 25% magic resistance dwarfs have in the game currently is fine, but it does very little to block powerful direct damage spells like vortex.

The one problem I see with the new system is that the rune of negation (which you might be able to use to block offensive spells) takes too long to use. By the time you recognize a spell is coming, plus the cast/strike time means it takes too long to get the effect. Worse yet, this is only possible if you haven't used any runes in the last 60 seconds because of the global cooldown. It is not effective to sit around not using your runes waiting for the enemy to use a spell.

I would propose that the rune of negation should be an instant skill so you can actually strike the rune in time to actually block offensive magic spells. I also think this specific rune should not be hindered by the global cooldown. It should still have its own cooldown of 120 seconds so you can only use it occasionally. With these changes dwarf runelords and runesmiths would actually be able to counter enemy magic spells and bring the system closer to how TT works.

I don't think this would be overpowered at all, and would make the magic in battles a more interactive system.

Comments

  • zagumaarzagumaar Registered Users Posts: 81
    These seem reasonable changes, I like that.
  • Lord_DrakkenLord_Drakken Registered Users Posts: 117
    I am wondering if making the rune of negation independent of the global cooldown is possible in a mod? Anyone with modding skills have any idea?
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,884
    Wouldn't this make the Vampire Counts - Dwarves matchup even worse?
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • Lord_DrakkenLord_Drakken Registered Users Posts: 117
    edited July 2021
    I would argue that it would help the most for dwarfs vs skaven since they seem to use the most direct damage spells.

    However, I don't think this changes the balance a lot at all. We are talking using one rune a little more often (it still has a 120 second cooldown) More importantly, being able to react to enemy spellcasters is thematically canon and what the dwarfs runesmiths and runelords are all about.

    Before the rune magic update the rune of negation was instant, it was an area spell, AND there was no global cooldown for any runes. So from previous versions of the game, the rune of negation has still been nerfed even with my suggested changes.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,884

    I would argue that it would help the most for dwarfs vs skaven since they seem to use the most direct damage spells.

    However, I don't think this changes the balance a lot at all. We are talking using one rune a little more often (it still has a 120 second cooldown) More importantly, being able to react to enemy spellcasters is thematically canon and what the dwarfs runesmiths and runelords are all about.

    Before the rune magic update the rune of negation was instant, it was an area spell, AND there was no global cooldown for any runes. So from previous versions of the game, the rune of negation has still been nerfed even with my suggested changes.

    Yeah, I can get that; though Vampire Counts would need a rework at the same time; magic is the only way they can beat Dwarves.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • Lord_DrakkenLord_Drakken Registered Users Posts: 117
    I doubt the AI would be as efficient in blocking spells with the rune of negation anyway. They would probably pop it as soon as they can to just negate normal damage.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 15,995

    I doubt the AI would be as efficient in blocking spells with the rune of negation anyway. They would probably pop it as soon as they can to just negate normal damage.

    oh he is not talking about dwarfs in sp in MP there are basically the weirdest roster available, they abs crush brets, empire, TK, Coast

    but gets raped by HE and skaven , bm And GS match up is probably not fun any more dwarfs

    while having very little balanced MUs.

    he is just worried Counts will join the above pile which is understandable
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Lord_DrakkenLord_Drakken Registered Users Posts: 117
    I don't understand the concern in MP to be honest. Because the Rune of Negation before the update was instant, it was a large area spell, and it was only subject to its own cooldown. Therefore, it was a much more powerful rune before the changes to rune magic.

    So, if magic damage is the key for the vampire counts as Amonket says, vampires just got much more powerful against the dwarfs.

    My recommendations only restore the rune to its previous potency on 2 of the 3 counts I noted. So, in other words it is still nerfed compared to before the update.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 15,995

    I don't understand the concern in MP to be honest. Because the Rune of Negation before the update was instant, it was a large area spell, and it was only subject to its own cooldown. Therefore, it was a much more powerful rune before the changes to rune magic.

    So, if magic damage is the key for the vampire counts as Amonket says, vampires just got much more powerful against the dwarfs.

    My recommendations only restore the rune to its previous potency on 2 of the 3 counts I noted. So, in other words it is still nerfed compared to before the update.

    Honestly i Don't think its that simple , because i have not palyed that Mu much
    On a vaccum that rune did nothing.


    But its now not in vaccum. Conceptually this probably what the issue is.

    Dwarfs can now punch back really hard with even their chaff level units , since all of them have way too much MD and very little MA

    So they used not kill any one and take lot of time to kill enemy so you could effectively shut down a dwarf unit with a summon.

    Now thanks to thorek and rune lords by lesser margin this is much harder

    Thorek get rune of doom free on his anvil for Mp basically allowing him to alternative switch between rune of speed and rune of doom.
    And since both have unlimited charges its Honestly broken.. the high Md dwarf units start cutting through enemy while enemy has less chance to cut them back with thier high MD.

    If you allow free cooldown rune of negations on top of that yeah that MU is probably gone down the drain but i think it may have already gone down their any way.

    Because anvils also cause minor miscasts so kind of mortis engine to count casters who has to beclose to summon .
    Also the changes made to engineer didn't help now troll hammers don't run out of ammo, their is an throwble free net with a MD debuff on engineer.


    Its kind of busted but oh well.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Lord_DrakkenLord_Drakken Registered Users Posts: 117
    edited August 2021
    This has veered quite a bit off topic. I agree the engineer was buffed. However, he was really useless before and was rarely used in MP. So you have to measure the master engineer now (cost 1118 points) included in the MP roster vs facing another combat unit or two.

    I am not sure what percentage of ammo he replenishes but it looks like about 20%. So I am pretty certain adding another unit of trollhammer torpedoes (cost 900) for double the burst damage and double the ammo from the start may still be a better option than including the engineer. Is it worth it taking the engineer then just for the smoke bomb and his other abilities/combat prowess? I would say it is a close call and that is called balance. CA making the engineer an actual viable option in the dwarf roster didn't suddenly make them OP in any way IMHO.

    Thorek on the other hand is straight up strong. He is a new lord and just like all of the other new lords power creep has ensued. As soon as the VC's get their next lord "She" will be OP as well. It is the way this franchise keeps heading.

    All of that said. My idea is solid and not overpowered if we are being fair. It would make battles more interesting for the dwarfs.

    Finally I would argue, (and legend of total war agrees) that the new rune magic system is actually a nerf for the dwarfs compared to the old rune system where you could pop all of the runes at once. I play dwarfs more than the other factions combined. IMHO I think excluding Thorek, the dwarfs are now more interesting to play, but their total power didn't change much, and runesmiths received a decent nerf. So any talk of how the dwarfs are unbeatable now is just silly. I find the few people who play multiplayer to almost always be biased toward their favored factions and they don't tend to take all of the changes into account.

    I don't care that the dwarfs may have been nerfed a little. I am just glad their roster is better balanced now and they have more interesting gameplay. That is why I suggested these changes. Not to buff them significantly.
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