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untrained fugu + world weary + not having blade master = no more sword core

24

Comments

  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    It's an advantage. If the game were perfectly balanced and if vetting in avatar were similar to classic then it'd wouldn't be an advantage but that is certainly not the case. vets win matches, if they didn't we'd see a LOT more vanilla units out and about...

    Vets help win matches yes and I never said they didn't. I said vet slots don't help win matches meaning 50 vet slots is plenty to field a decent number of vets when you can only deploy 20 units and the max funds in MM and what tournament use is 14k funds. And you can't really take 20 decent units with 14k and most top battles people end up having something like 6 vanilla units mixed with their vets or more sometimes. So yeah 50 vets slots is plenty and having more won't offer any real adv. just some people like myself like to keep alittle bit of everything with vets around in our vet slots even if we never use those units. I have well over 100 vet slots and don't even touch half of them. Really you only need something like a small core of vets around 8 about and rest can be vanilla to do just fine in MM or a tournament match and not be at any disadvantage.
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited March 2012
    I had to check the date on this thread...it sounds awfully like the ones that us sword people used to post after pretty much every patch that came out.

    Shogun2 MP is anti-sword...simple.

    In this game's version of Japan, anyone carrying a sword would have been a laughing stock, someone to throw scorn and rotten fruit at.
    Yes, it's me.

    Gungho |Takeda| Yamagato Masakage

    You have spoken with clarity of thought and rhetorical flourish...you have surely earned the favour of the mods.

    If you didn't, click here...
  • BeardyMcJohnFaceBeardyMcJohnFace Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Vets help win matches yes and I never said they didn't. I said vet slots don't help win matches meaning 50 vet slots is plenty to field a decent number of vets when you can only deploy 20 units and the max funds in MM and what tournament use is 14k funds. And you can't really take 20 decent units with 14k and most top battles people end up having something like 6 vanilla units mixed with their vets or more sometimes. So yeah 50 vets slots is plenty and having more won't offer any real adv. just some people like myself like to keep alittle bit of everything with vets around in our vet slots even if we never use those units. I have well over 100 vet slots and don't even touch half of them. Really you only need something like a small core of vets around 8 about and rest can be vanilla to do just fine in MM or a tournament match and not be at any disadvantage.
    i think you're understating the advantage a bit. I'm in the same boat, seems like half my vets rarely see the light of day but having an array of each unit for each class with different upgrades means an advantage in several different ways. Vanilla units are terrible (the only ones i use are nag attendants and light cav, with vets you can quadrouple the melee potential of a unit for only twice the cost), one can always spend all their koku, whenever CA carelessly swings the nurf bat they can drastically change the army line-up without having to delete and regrind vets and tokens, vets can be tailored with upgrades to better suite a specific play style etc.

    I will admit, going from say 100 to 1000 vet slots wouldn't pose as much of an advantage but 50ish is severely limiting. if you don't believe me then reset your avatar and see for yourself...
  • themonkeythemonkey Senior Member Posts: 310Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    lol vet spot = mass ninja the ultimate build toward victory!!!
    gn = <g) gensou If you want to 1v1 message me :0, need to find more good player to play with :0 to improve ;).
  • qed_deqqed_deq Senior Member Posts: 191Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    In 50 slots you can get everything you need provided you know exactly what you need. Problem is most people when they start to play they have no clue what they need so they make all kind of vets to which they get emotionally attached, paint them in nice colours, put nice names, invest tokens, and than we ask them to delete these units to create vets that are more cost effective. It's heartbreaking.
    Visit my YouTube channel for my most recent multiplayer battle replays and let's play campaigns


    The expert in battle seeks his victory from strategic advantage and does not demand it from his men
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    qed_deq wrote: »
    In 50 slots you can get everything you need provided you know exactly what you need. Problem is most people when they start to play they have no clue what they need so they make all kind of vets to which they get emotionally attached, paint them in nice colours, put nice names, invest tokens, and than we ask them to delete these units to create vets that are more cost effective. It's heartbreaking.

    Qed says it right there in the underlined.

    Many tokens and hours of grind have been wasted in the pursuit of cost-effectiveness.
    Take the grind and unfairness out of future titles CA. Unlimited, Easy-to-make, Resettable, Token-Refunding VETERANS.
  • andferpaandferpa Senior Member Posts: 2,520Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Haze has it, it has all been a grind, and many veterans deleted in order to adapt to the different balances, pretty sad actually, that so much focus is put into playing time, and who can obtain effective vets faster.
    Andokides
    All war is based on deception.
    Sun Tzu
    If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.
    Sun Tzu
    A leader is a dealer in hope.
    Napoleon Bonaparte
    Heaven cannot brook two suns, nor earth two masters.
    Alexander the Great
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.
    William Shakespeare.
  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I always have to delete vets to make space for new... at 10 star silver with no bugmode
  • tricky-steptricky-step Senior Member Posts: 201Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    with the amount of different patches and the ensuing changes to the game, i had to delete many of my past time veterans to suit the new climate of the game. but really, im tired of doing that - especially with FoTS so close.

    this game really discourage amateur players with the grind fest for quality veterans along with the lopsided retainer system.

    im hoping FoTS does something different >_>
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    i think you're understating the advantage a bit. I'm in the same boat, seems like half my vets rarely see the light of day but having an array of each unit for each class with different upgrades means an advantage in several different ways. Vanilla units are terrible (the only ones i use are nag attendants and light cav, with vets you can quadrouple the melee potential of a unit for only twice the cost), one can always spend all their koku, whenever CA carelessly swings the nurf bat they can drastically change the army line-up without having to delete and regrind vets and tokens, vets can be tailored with upgrades to better suite a specific play style etc.

    I will admit, going from say 100 to 1000 vet slots wouldn't pose as much of an advantage but 50ish is severely limiting. if you don't believe me then reset your avatar and see for yourself...

    Vanilla units aren't terrible, they are decent and if CA would ever fixes the free fatigue bonus vets get (which ofc they won't) it would help balance things out more. I play with vanilla matchlocks and sometimes they can be my game winners at the end of a battle. I play almost all my 1v1 and 2v2 10k battles with ALL vanilla units and don't get hammered because of the vets my opponents bring. The most annoying thing playing against in 10k when I bring an all vanilla build is a unit with HF, that's about it.

    Vets melee power doesn't quadruple from their upgrades for only twice the cost - abit of exaggeration there, but yes the straight 50 koku for basic upgrades and 70 koku for token upgrades doesn't make much sense at all. Cost of those upgrades should be determined by things like the original cost of the unit, the unit type and the size of the unit - not a flat cost across the board for all units.

    When CA swung the nerf bat many including myself had to delete units and regrind up again. I removed lots of units and redid new ones and 50 vet slots was always enough to field a 14k army back to back without being at any disadvantage. You're not fielding 20 strong vets in a 14k match, those 22.5k games are long gone.

    I don't need to do any avatar resetting because I've played with 50 vet slots as have we all and that's all I about use anyway, actually alittle less. You can see that in my youtube vids as well as everyone else's that have competitive battles uploaded, which all show people using under 50 vets in their builds.

    Anyway what Haze said and what I've said quite a few times on these boards since the release of the game ->
    HaZE7 wrote: »
    Many tokens and hours of grind have been wasted in the pursuit of cost-effectiveness.
    Take the grind and unfairness out of future titles CA. Unlimited, Easy-to-make, Resettable, Token-Refunding VETERANS.

    Getting rid of it would be best and just let the players have full control of their setup, case closed.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Vanilla units aren't terrible, they are decent and if CA would ever fixes the free fatigue bonus vets get (which ofc they won't) it would help balance things out more. I play with vanilla matchlocks and sometimes they can be my game winners at the end of a battle. I play almost all my 1v1 and 2v2 10k battles with ALL vanilla units and don't get hammered because of the vets my opponents bring. The most annoying thing playing against in 10k when I bring an all vanilla build is a unit with HF, that's about it.

    Vets melee power doesn't quadruple from their upgrades for only twice the cost - abit of exaggeration there, but yes the straight 50 koku for basic upgrades and 70 koku for token upgrades doesn't make much sense at all. Cost of those upgrades should be determined by things like the original cost of the unit, the unit type and the size of the unit - not a flat cost across the board for all units.

    When CA swung the nerf bat many including myself had to delete units and regrind up again. I removed lots of units and redid new ones and 50 vet slots was always enough to field a 14k army back to back without being at any disadvantage. You're not fielding 20 strong vets in a 14k match, those 22.5k games are long gone.

    I don't need to do any avatar resetting because I've played with 50 vet slots as have we all and that's all I about use anyway, actually alittle less. You can see that in my youtube vids as well as everyone else's that have competitive battles uploaded, which all show people using under 50 vets in their builds.

    Anyway what Haze said and what I've said quite a few times on these boards since the release of the game ->


    Getting rid of it would be best and just let the players have full control of their setup, case closed.

    Well 14k is just an improved version of your 10k army. I use vanilla units as well, and well you don't need BEEFED up vets, I find myself being capable of using lvl2~4 veterans mostly since you can use a retainer to cover for the 3rd upgrade and leave more resources to spend on other contingents of your army, making it well balanced. I use about all 200 my vets either to try and mash together so I can have 0 koku left in my armies.(really just 20 koku + or -)

    In 14k Games you are really setting up a bunch of low level vets and some high quality vets together, The reason why clan skill upgrades are 70 more rather than 50 koku is to force players to spend there koku wisely. 50 koku for 2 attack... hmmm seems worth it, then it gets raised to 70 koku, and your left with the choice of having to spend it or not. The increase in cost is to merely stop people from getting all of it in favor of something else. Like the same reason why gas cost more on certain seasons is to make consumers use their gas efficiently. However for the ROTS units the cost seems to be unjustified but for the regular units I think its fine, otherwise people would just be spamming lower tier units rather than mid/high tier.

    Avatar resets are usually best for messed up DLC units.
  • BeardyMcJohnFaceBeardyMcJohnFace Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    I play with vanilla matchlocks and sometimes they can be my game winners at the end of a battle.
    well that's a bad example as matchlock sams are not worth upgrading unless you're gunning for extended range as the monks give better stats for koku. matchlocks as they are now don't get as much performance increase with vet skills as other units do.
    AMP wrote: »
    Vets melee power doesn't quadruple from their upgrades for only twice the cost - abit of exaggeration there, but yes the straight 50 koku for basic upgrades and 70 koku for token upgrades doesn't make much sense at all. Cost of those upgrades should be determined by things like the original cost of the unit, the unit type and the size of the unit - not a flat cost across the board for all units.
    ok, an exaggeration yes but vanilla yari ash for instance have 4att 3def and costs 350 while vet7 can have 8att 15def for 740; twice the attack, 5 times the defence for just over twice the price. that's an advantage...
  • StrakerYriusStrakerYrius Senior Member Posts: 249Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I strongly disagree - with only 57 slots there is no way to get every vet you need to try out more than 3 or 4 army builds at most. Bear in mind that you have to have the DLCs installed to be competitive,and they foist a good dozen Hero and other non-usable units onto you which you can't delete. Thus you have actually only 45 slots to build all the different variants of the armies that you might want to play.

    Someone with 200 slots can haave 20 - 30 Katana Sams, all at different levels of spend on Skill points so they have a huge degree of choice in what they bring. With only 45 odd slots you can't afford to keep more than 6 - 8 Kat sams as otherwise you have no room for all the cav,ML, bows, Naginatas, etc etc. You end up with about 4 of each, which all have to be upgaded to the max to be competitive.

    So you end up with the very limited choice of either fielding fully vetted units or entirely vanilla ones, with nothing in between. There are times when you want some mid-ranked vets to get a better balance, and with only 45 slots there is no way to do that. That's the big advantage for players who used the exploit, and the only redress I can suggest is that CA make it that you unlock a vet slot for every province that you conquer in the avatar campaign, so by the time you have conquered the map as a gold player you would have nearly 200 slots. That would level the playing field for everyone.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Well you can disagree all you like, but the dust collecting on my 120+ vets from being unused out of my 156 total says otherwise. Most are just experimental units or a vet of each kind that I like to keep on hand, but they aren't needed at all and most certainly don't provide any adv. collecting dust.

    And no you don't need to upgrade vets to the max to be competitive and yes there is plenty of in between with my builds mix of vanilla and vets and I do just fine really...

    You can easily get by with just 20 strong vets using 10 each match and filling the rest with vanilla units in a 14k fund match, so having around 50 vet slots of more than enough to be competitive. I only use regularly 35 vets, the rest aren't even really needed at all.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Well you can disagree all you like, but the dust collecting on my 120+ vets from being unused out of my 156 total says otherwise. Most are just experimental units or a vet of each kind that I like to keep on hand, but they aren't needed at all and most certainly don't provide any adv. collecting dust.

    And no you don't need to upgrade vets to the max to be competitive and yes there is plenty of in between with my builds mix of vanilla and vets and I do just fine really...

    You can easily get by with just 20 strong vets using 10 each match and filling the rest with vanilla units in a 14k fund match, so having around 50 vet slots of more than enough to be competitive. I only use regularly 35 vets, the rest aren't even really needed at all.

    Thats cuz your using HIGH level vets. not alot of LOW level vets. I like to mix my armies with some low levels and some high levels or use many low levels with less vanilla units or use 10-12 well vetted units with a bunch of vanilla units. Just because your mix of veterans require around 30ish vet slots doesn't mean the rest of us. remember you are one among the many.
  • VeritasVeritas Senior Member Posts: 301Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Well you can disagree all you like, but the dust collecting on my 120+ vets from being unused out of my 156 total says otherwise.

    Why do you always argue as if you're saddled on top of a horse? Get down!

    You only use 35 vets? Fantastic. You're a one dimensional player. But hey, your limited armies/style works. But in the mean time try comprehending what others are saying.

    And more importantly saying something like "you can all disagree with me but the fact my experiences are different makes you wrong" is not only absurd because your argument is purely anecdotal but it also makes you look incredibly arrogant, especially as you're not addressing other people's points. So settle down, AMP.
    RTK | Yoshida
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Veritas wrote: »
    Why do you always argue as if you're saddled on top of a horse? Get down!

    You only use 35 vets? Fantastic. You're a one dimensional player. But hey, your limited armies/style works. But in the mean time try comprehending what others are saying.

    And more importantly saying something like "you can all disagree with me but the fact my experiences are different makes you wrong" is not only absurd because your argument is purely anecdotal but it also makes you look incredibly arrogant, especially as you're not addressing other people's points. So settle down, AMP.

    How dose 35 vets make me a one dimensional player? You mean one dimensional with my vets? How many options do you have though really? Spear heavy, sword heavy, cavalry heavy, missile heavy, balanced? You can make a good core with all those type of builds with just 50 vets and easily 3 different builds in 14k with just 35k vets. My youtube vids don't look any more one dimensional than others from what I can see.

    You say "try comprehending what others are saying" which part? Where having 100+ vet slots gives someone an advantage over someone who just has 50 vet slots in battle? Both players have 14k funds so it's not you can deploy all those vets at once. Sure you can change up your units more having a wider selection in vets including low tier and high tier, but that doesn't mean you have an advantage in the battle itself.

    And there is no point in addressing again for the 2nd time someone who said vanilla units are terrible when I've beaten already a couple people posting in this topic 1v1 in MM with an almost all vanilla build against their almost purely vet build... you only need a small handful of good vets to be equal to your opponent in battle.
  • VeritasVeritas Senior Member Posts: 301Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    How dose 35 vets make me a one dimensional player? You mean one dimensional with my vets? How many options do you have though really? Spear heavy, sword heavy, cavalry heavy, missile heavy, balanced? You can make a good core with all those type of builds with just 50 vets and easily 3 different builds in 14k with just 35k vets. My youtube vids don't look any more one dimensional than others from what I can see.

    Having 100 vet slots means you can make an array of different army setups. You're one dimensional because you use the same builds, along with the same play style and make very minor changes to your setup. Nagi attendants out in front, 3 vanilla matchies to soften up the enemy (which I agree... as vanilla units they're perfect) and then you retreat them behind your line, placing them so you can exploit the gaps you leave in your own line. Then send your monks in with your no-dachi (or whatever infantry you put on your flank but it's usually quite strong) in and use your katana cav to soften up any swords whilst your matchlocks hit the enemies infantry... and you try to time it with warcry. You also like Hold Firm units. I've never really seen you do much else. Your builds were very generic in the whole Aggony tournament as well. Prior to the patch you monk spammed... your builds were absolutely disgusting, but you still used the same **** and didn't really do much else. You're limited, and your thoughts on vet slots also demonstrate this - but that is not to say you're not good at what you do, but it does mean you're one dimensional. Furthermore your arrogance doesn't allow you to recognise other people's points of view. Hence your response 'well you can disagree all you like'. Just sheer arrogance - especially as Beardy quite clearly refuted one of your main points.

    All these things I have said to you already elsewhere, btw. ;)

    If you used more veterans you might be able to alter your play style a little more. I don't know why you think you're so amazing and you talk to others as if they are below you. It's really not very nice Ampy, and it's why I'm being so harsh on you right now.
    Sure you can change up your units more having a wider selection in vets including low tier and high tier, but that doesn't mean you have an advantage in the battle itself.
    Agreed, not in one battle. But more vet slots = more flexibility and a greater ability to adapt over series of battles... a good example would be a tournament. Outside of that, you're granted an ability to test other types of builds or 'cores'.
    RTK | Yoshida
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    And there is no point in addressing again for the 2nd time someone who said vanilla units are terrible when I've beaten already a couple people posting in this topic 1v1 in MM with an almost all vanilla build against their almost purely vet build... you only need a small handful of good vets to be equal to your opponent in battle.

    OH NO! its so hard to win with a purely vanilla build! against someone with an almost purely vetted build! MAN you must be a pro among pros!

    So From what I am understanding from your post, you can use 35 vets to create a spear build, a cav build, a sword build, a missile build, a balanced build? WOW with just 35 vets? will all of those builds be available after a battle? or would you need a vet refresh? From what I read in the past posts, NO ONE is talking about a IN BATTLE advantage. Its a more of a competitive advantage in CHOICE.
  • AresGodofWar1214AresGodofWar1214 Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    TheDuke wrote: »
    OH NO! its so hard to win with a purely vanilla build! against someone with an almost purely vetted build! MAN you must be a pro among pros!

    So From what I am understanding from your post, you can use 35 vets to create a spear build, a cav build, a sword build, a missile build, a balanced build? WOW with just 35 vets? will all of those builds be available after a battle? or would you need a vet refresh? From what I read in the past posts, NO ONE is talking about a IN BATTLE advantage. Its a more of a competitive advantage in CHOICE.

    Troll much? It just so happens AMP kinda is a bit of a pro lol. Aside from that, how does me having 260 vet slots, of which I use about 80, help me in a battle? Can I hammer and anvil you with the remaining 180 vet slots? Can those 180 win the bow fight? If I have 100 vets to choose from and you have 50, all that means is that I can choose from more units, that doesn't make them better or worse, or more cost effective.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    I believe he addressed your rebuttal in his post, competitive advantage in choice rather than competitive advantage in battle. Though He does have a point about the vanilla army, it depends on how good your opponent is. Otherwise anyone can win with a vanilla army in 14k. unless he is talking about 10k and 5k games. those are different stories.
  • AresGodofWar1214AresGodofWar1214 Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I believe he addressed your rebuttal in his post, competitive advantage in choice rather than competitive advantage in battle. Though He does have a point about the vanilla army, it depends on how good your opponent is. Otherwise anyone can win with a vanilla army in 14k. unless he is talking about 10k and 5k games. those are different stories.

    You as well as anyone should know half the battle is won by bringing a good army. A good army can only have 20 units in it, half of which are probably veterans that arent DLC. So how many vet slots do you really need to have a decent set of armies? Furthermore, another large portion of winning a battle is luck, luck that you brought a decent counter to your opponents army. While having more vet slots does give me more choice, it will not make my army any better of a counter vs the other guys army. The only possible advantage I can see for it is on very certain scenarios when a single unit or army is good on a map, and just being able to play around with some crazy units. Honestly though, there is little to no battlefield advantage, choice or competitive.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    You as well as anyone should know half the battle is won by bringing a good army. A good army can only have 20 units in it, half of which are probably veterans that arent DLC. So how many vet slots do you really need to have a decent set of armies? Furthermore, another large portion of winning a battle is luck, luck that you brought a decent counter to your opponents army. While having more vet slots does give me more choice, it will not make my army any better of a counter vs the other guys army. The only possible advantage I can see for it is on very certain scenarios when a single unit or army is good on a map, and just being able to play around with some crazy units. Honestly though, there is little to no battlefield advantage, choice or competitive.
    No idea, vet slots that are needed differ from person to person, you need 80 while amp needs only 35. More choices means allowing your army to perform better in certain situations than a normal army. More Vet slots allows a player to prepare himself for many situations, if you create a certain system to control your units and respond to how your opponent acts on then its quite a nice advantage but furthermore, its based on experience for players to be able to take on deadly counters like full head on melee army with 3 cav vs bow cav spam, all one needs to do is be able to corner his army. Even if Player A has a deadly counter vs Player B, he still can be beaten can be beaten if Player B has knowledge in countering player A's army
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    @ Veritas
    I use spear heavy build, sword build, mixed sword & spear, sometimes 5 matchlocks, sometimes build with two vet bows, sometimes cav heavy with vet monks along with vet kata cav and bow cav, so if that's one dimensional I guess most people that play this game are as well because I haven't seen to much of anything different. You only have so many options. Only others builds that I see from time to time are heavy kata sam builds, nag sam builds, yari ashi builds, and Cats heavy skirmish with cav build. If you have vids of someone using something different alot and doing well I'd sure like to see these builds and his playing style.

    Prior to the patch didn't most people monk spam? I monk spammed, but not in the sense most people think as in I used 5 nag monks tops, but mostly 4 along with monk cav, 1 kata cav, yari ashi and monk bows. Most "monk spammers" went over 5 nag monks. Towards the end of the monk era I did mix up with ninjas/monk builds and loan swords/monk builds, while a good % still spammed mostly nag monks. I was also one of the 1st during the monk era that started the whole so called cheese using HF to shoot thru friendlys while you had that -20 morale penalty modifier in place.

    Beardy is wrong on both points. 1st that vanilla units are terrible and 2nd that extra vet slots somehow give an advantage. Vanilla units are weaker sure, but not really underpowered for their cost. As I said if vanilla units are so terrible I wouldn't have beat in MM two people posting here on these forums with just a few vets and the rest vanilla units, while they had mainly all vets. If vanilla units were terrible they would've beat me no problem. And extra vet slots offer a wider selection sure, but that's not an advantage over someone who has just 50 vet slots unless they don't know what upgrades are good, which isn't that hard to figure out. 50 vet slots is plenty really, my partner swoosh has just 50 vet slots and handles herself just fine with me in our 2v2s. For our tournaments she had to remove a few vets (mostly because she to much of the same) and regrind to make a couple new vets, not that hard really.

    And I don't think I am amazing, but seems I am better than most people I come across in TW anyway. The overall skill lvl of TW is quite low. And I can't help it if I sound arrogant, but that's how they sound to me as well and some of them hardly play and have like 70% or less ratios in MM where any decent gamer can get higher, so yeah it's hard to see things the same as them.

    @ TheDuke
    Says the man who thinks he good because he's rank around 300 in the ladder without playing much and also thinks skills like warcry and banzai are free on vets that they aren't figured into their cost. Come back to planet Earth?

    50 vets is plenty to choose from because last time I checked end games are 14k where people bring around 10 to 12 vets a battle add vet refresh that's like 24 vets, so you still have 25 vets slots to add switch units changing things up and that's plenty.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Beardy is wrong on both points,. 1st that vanilla units are terrible and 2nd that extra vet slots somehow give an advantage. Vanilla units are weaker sure, but not really underpowered for their cost. As I said if vanilla units are so terrible I wouldn't have beat in MM two people posting here on these forums with just a few vets and the rest vanilla units, while they had mainly all vets. If vanilla units were terrible they would've beat me no problem. And extra vet slots offer a wider selection sure, but that's not an advantage over someone who has just 50 vet slots unless they don't know what upgrades are good, which isn't that hard to figure out. 50 vet slots is plenty really, my partner swoosh has just 50 vet slots and handles herself just fine with me in our 2v2s. For our tournaments she had to remove a few vets (mostly because she to much of the same) and regrind to make a couple new vets, not that hard really.

    And I don't think I am amazing, but seems I am better than most people I come across in TW anyway. The overall skill lvl of TW is quite low. And I can't help it if I sound arrogant, but that's how they sound to me as well and some of them hardly play and have like 70% or less ratios in MM where any decent gamer can get higher, so yeah it's hard to see things the same as them.

    @ TheDuke
    Says the man who thinks he good because he's rank around 300 in the ladder without playing much and also thinks skills like warcry and banzai are free on vets that they aren't figured into their cost. Come back to planet Earth?

    50 vets is plenty to choose from because last time I checked end games are 14k where people bring around 10 to 12 vets a battle add vet refresh that's like 24 vets, so you still have 25 vets slots to add switch units changing things up and that's plenty.
    Beardy isnt wrong at all. He brings a valid point, like I said before, It depends on your opponent's skill level and your own. obviously using vanilla units isn't the MOST ideal in a 14k game, especially if you are not a leader gen. Thats like Me, saying a bow ash core is good just because I beat two newbs with it, no problem. I mean sure, you can beat two guys on the forums with just vanilla units, but your average player, like you said is very mundane. So yeah, vanilla units may not be terrible units for you, but for most players it is. And BCK told me its easy to beat Swoosh So since his/her armies are predictable, yari ash spams most of the time, though I could be wrong. But ya, the amount of vet slots needed differ from person to person.

    For Duke's thoughts on abilities being free, I wouldnt say they are free to that extent but merely you can't really put a price on abilities. I mean how does one put a price on spear wall? or rapid advance? or 2nd wind? or War cry and Hold firm? some abilities brings the players victory which is kind of invaluable no matter the cost. Like I use yari ash but I dont ever use spear wall, for them ever. or Yari sams and forget to use their rapid advance, or nagi monks and neglect their war cry, or archers with their fire arrows. If abilities are factored in the game then why are bow sams naturally better than bow ash even if bow ash have the fire arrows upgrade, or why do matchlock monks have superior stats and have increase range ability while matchlock ashigaru don't? and the difference isn't much either.
  • SmtNSmtN Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Having the Vet bug is definite advantage, I'm often constrained by my build due to lack of vets. Amp, you list all your different, diverse playstyles without realising that is aided incredibly by having a lot of vet choice.

    If you really believe what you're saying, delete all your excess vets and play with the correct amount for silver 10; a screenshot would be nice. Otherwise you can see the obvious hypocrisy.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    @ SmtN
    Deleting those vets won't hinder me in anyway as I said I don't even use over 50 vets really, just mostly around 35. Same goes for anyone who has 50 vet slots they aren't at any real disadvantage... having a sidebar of 25 vets not on refresh and not in your main build is a decent amount to choose from when deciding if you want to swap vets out based on map/opponent.

    Anyway kinda funny complaining about this being an advantage when really we shouldn't have such restrictions as I mentioned quite a few times many months ago, yet some people were in favor of it all.
  • AresGodofWar1214AresGodofWar1214 Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    @ SmtN
    Deleting those vets won't hinder me in anyway as I said I don't even use over 50 vets really, just mostly around 35. Same goes for anyone who has 50 vet slots they aren't at any real disadvantage... having a sidebar of 25 vets not on refresh and not in your main build is a decent amount to choose from when deciding if you want to swap vets out based on map/opponent.

    Anyway kinda funny complaining about this being an advantage when really we shouldn't have such restrictions as I mentioned quite a few times many months ago, yet some people were in favor of it all.

    I agree, a limit is stupid, or atleast this low of a limit.
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I only have 50 or so veterans and I have managed to make all of the following armies out of what I have;

    Heavy skirmish builds (3 200 range units, backed by spears)
    Balanced builds
    Spear and cav rush builds (monks and yari ash mixed with katana cav, monk cav etc)
    Sword rush armies
    Mixed rush builds (spears and swords, with cav)
    Cav rush builds (I only ever use these on people who I know are going to take a bow cav/cav spam)
    Ikko ikki builds (warrior monks, vet 9 loan swords, monk cav etc - kind of a fun type of army rather than anything serious, but it does work well)

    The list goes on. You just have to structure your veterans well and make some good choices about what you do and don't need on your list. Having the extra slots would be nice, but I don't need them to make a wide variety of armies. You only need a certain number of key veterans in your list (I'd say about 10 swords, 6-8 yari ash, 5 200 range bows, 2 extended range matchlock monks, 8 monk/sam vet spear units, with the remainder being made up of units of your choice, depending on the way you want to weight your armies) the rest are all window dressing or experimental units really.

    Vanilla units can be quite effective, especially No dachi, guns, monks and cav units generally. If you take a vanilla army you do have to structure it in a certain way though, relying more on cav and matchlocks to counteract the qualitative advantage that your opponents are going to have in melee. AggonyKinjo is one of my 2v2 allies and he runs vanilla armies in the matchmade with just as much success as what he has with his high vet builds. I have used veteran and vanilla armies myself and have found that whilst it can be a bit intimidating at first running an all vanilla build that they can be extremely effective, especially as you are likely to have a better balanced force than your opponents, as well as a significant numerical advantage.

    I don't necessarily like the fact that some people have a bigger vets list than others (CA should just give everyone an extra 100 or so vets and be done with it), but this doesn't really give them any real unbalanced advantage over me in the battles.
    RedStag
  • BeardyMcJohnFaceBeardyMcJohnFace Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Beardy is wrong on both points. 1st that vanilla units are terrible and 2nd that extra vet slots somehow give an advantage. Vanilla units are weaker sure, but not really underpowered for their cost. As I said if vanilla units are so terrible I wouldn't have beat in MM two people posting here on these forums with just a few vets and the rest vanilla units, while they had mainly all vets. If vanilla units were terrible they would've beat me no problem. And extra vet slots offer a wider selection sure, but that's not an advantage over someone who has just 50 vet slots unless they don't know what upgrades are good, which isn't that hard to figure out. 50 vet slots is plenty really, my partner swoosh has just 50 vet slots and handles herself just fine with me in our 2v2s. For our tournaments she had to remove a few vets (mostly because she to much of the same) and regrind to make a couple new vets, not that hard really.
    I like how in one post you say that vanilla units are just fine and just as cost effective but in another post you mention that some vets are still needed in a vanilla heavy build to stand a chance against a full vet build, and in yet another, that there's flaws with the upgrade system and the free fatigue resistance needs to be turfed. Also, congratulations on your 2MM wins with mostly vanilla units but that hardly equals a trend.
    If there's anything you'd like to add to back up your arguments other than "I won a MM therefore you're wrong" I'd be happy to address it, otherwise feel free to continue contradicting yourself while gloating about MM wins...
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