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I think it might be time - Doom-flayers

griffithx#1314griffithx#1314 Registered Users Posts: 1,502
Now that CA is doing balance passes on chariots and most chariots with hinges got somewhat improved with that bug fix.
Doom-flayers need to be evaluated.

They currently are not worth their price in the majority of instances. I thought I found one area where they have a bit of a niche which is going after archers who are trying to defend one another with ranged fire and/or using wolfrats with doomflayers grouped and positioned inside them but then when I tried just wolf rats alone or substituted rat ogres inside the group of wolf rats I seemed to get better results from that.

I know some people are going to reflexively say no they are wonderful because of their memories of the period when this unit was OP but all I ask is you go in the game and try some tests of rear and flank charging the units you believe this unit is meant to perform well against and tell me how it feels to you and how easy or how hard it was to get these units to perform well and pay for themselves.
Post edited by CA_Will on

Comments

  • griffithx#1314griffithx#1314 Registered Users Posts: 1,502
    Green0 said:

    Foomflayers are an excellent tanking unit in SK roster and are also quite good for harassing. They are great in rush builds and effective at capturing archers. In the infantry meta we are in, they are always a solid choice, only Mortars, Globadiers and similar are OP so you generally maximise on thise for anti-infantry.

    When was the last time you personally used them in the game?
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,450
    Unit just needs about 1/3 to 1/2 of the hp it lost in its nerf back. Pretty simple fix.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,909
    edited August 2021
    They were never a good unit, much like sword knights, they r a melee chariot where they perform "best" when not cycle charging due to the fact they only have 800 mass.

    Which brings to the problem, they have
    - very low hp compared to other chariots, which doesnt work as u can see how much more durable guardians r vs grails
    - very low ld, skaven so not much u can do there
    - very low def to perform holding at 22 def, lion chariot is 40 def

    Its a design flaw, something meant to stay in melee but does not have the tools to do the job.

    They arent even remotely good at patch 1.0, the pointless changes made them pure trash, pretty evident with the 0 pick rate. At that point they have a VERY MINOR niche being the other "fast" unit than doomwheel at 72 speed, so they r being seen as a psuedo cav to do the job. They r completely useless now with the introduction of wolf rats to do light cav job.

    It needs quite a rework at $1200 price tag

    something along the line to reinforce their holding power, 22 def aint gonna cut it
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  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565
    yst said:

    They were never a good unit, much like sword knights, they r a melee chariot where they perform "best" when not cycle charging due to the fact they only have 800 mass.

    Which brings to the problem, they have
    - very low hp compared to other chariots, which doesnt work as u can see how much more durable guardians r vs grails
    - very low ld, skaven so not much u can do there
    - very low def to perform holding at 22 def, lion chariot is 40 def

    Its a design flaw, something meant to stay in melee but does not have the tools to do the job.

    They arent even remotely good at patch 1.0, the pointless changes made them pure trash, pretty evident with the 0 pick rate. At that point they have a VERY MINOR niche being the other "fast" unit than doomwheel at 72 speed, so they r being seen as a psuedo cav to do the job. They r completely useless now with the introduction of wolf rats to do light cav job.

    It needs quite a rework at $1200 price tag

    something along the line to reinforce their holding power, 22 def aint gonna cut it

    when you ignore animations that easy quadruple there defensive capabilities, they sure do seem weak
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,747
    edited August 2021
    Imo they need to be downtiered. For elite/heavy duty you have doom wheel. Doom flayers should be skaven's pump wagons, give or take.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,909
    edited August 2021
    Kebab_man said:

    when you ignore animations that easy quadruple there defensive capabilities, they sure do seem weak

    Those animation has absolutely 0 impact on their performance. Easily tested.

    Imo they need to be downtiered. For elite/heavy duty you have doom wheel. Doom flayers should be skaven's pump wagons, give or take.

    They r already a downtiered unit that costs $1200 where they should be around $1000 or significantly less tbh. Its an extremely mediocre unit. rat orges will get all the job done easier



    Thats some pathetic performance, one is a non ap and single charge vs the other thats suppose to excel in melee
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  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,685
    They do look pretty sad compared to pumpwagons. more HP isnt the answer though I think; more charge bonus and mass would be more useful.


  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    a lot stronger than doomwheels tho, id rather buff those. Doomflayer are just straight better, pr unit and even more so by cost. Doomwheels need a heavy buff, like +50% hp or a massive increase of the ranged attack.

    Doomflayers are decent but not very stronmg. It seems like a faction nerf and a sensible one imo, i dont know that i want a ranged faction to have strong chariots tbh, just usable ones, and thats doomflayers
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    edited August 2021
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Foomflayers are an excellent tanking unit in SK roster and are also quite good for harassing. They are great in rush builds and effective at capturing archers. In the infantry meta we are in, they are always a solid choice, only Mortars, Globadiers and similar are OP so you generally maximise on thise for anti-infantry.

    When was the last time you personally used them in the game?
    why does this need to be about me. ALL chariots suffer now in current infantry spam meta. But that's a chariot problem, Doomflayers are an excellent unit that many players (including me) used pre-Rakarth patch.
    Edited because i was wrong, but still: just dont countercharge GW infantry and chariots still perform well
    Post edited by RawSugar on
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/291027/infantry-interactions-not-working

    Trading down vs infantry, just didn't get as much attention as cav did.
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  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565
    yst said:

    Kebab_man said:

    when you ignore animations that easy quadruple there defensive capabilities, they sure do seem weak

    Those animation has absolutely 0 impact on their performance. Easily tested.

    Imo they need to be downtiered. For elite/heavy duty you have doom wheel. Doom flayers should be skaven's pump wagons, give or take.

    They r already a downtiered unit that costs $1200 where they should be around $1000 or significantly less tbh. Its an extremely mediocre unit. rat orges will get all the job done easier



    Thats some pathetic performance, one is a non ap and single charge vs the other thats suppose to excel in melee
    oh yea, dodging arrows, and making itself hard for infantry models to hot sure has no pact, next you'll saw that eagles getting hit by the first 10 arrows in the volley and then staggering dodging has no impact on gameplay
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    edited August 2021

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/291027/infantry-interactions-not-working

    Trading down vs infantry, just didn't get as much attention as cav did.

    lacking the comparison how things were before rakarth. huh. actually i had a 1.10 test lying about and seems new patch chariots actually take 3 times as much damage/hits as before change (cavalry just double) - its still just double after 10 secs though. still trade up vs shield infantry even on charge/5 secs, where before the interaction was ludicrously onesided, and interaction w GW still best fixed by reducing the CB but...huh, noted :open_mouth:
    Post edited by RawSugar on
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,909
    edited August 2021
    Kebab_man said:

    oh yea, dodging arrows, and making itself hard for infantry models to hot sure has no pact, next you'll saw that eagles getting hit by the first 10 arrows in the volley and then staggering dodging has no impact on gameplay

    Lulz u must be new if u think regular chariots cant dodge arrows
    “Making inf models hard to hit” rightttt, next thing you’ll see is these ppl telling u they r immune to melee.

    Like i said, easily tested and pick rate us self-explainatory, not wasting time explaining rubbish non relevant stuffs.
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  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565
    yst said:

    Kebab_man said:

    oh yea, dodging arrows, and making itself hard for infantry models to hot sure has no pact, next you'll saw that eagles getting hit by the first 10 arrows in the volley and then staggering dodging has no impact on gameplay

    Lulz u must be new if u think regular chariots cant dodge arrows
    “Making inf models hard to hit” rightttt, next thing you’ll see is these ppl telling u they r immune to melee.

    Like i said, easily tested and pick rate us self-explainatory, not wasting time explaining rubbish non relevant stuffs.
    regular chariots can't, WHEN THEY ARE STUCK IN MELEE, regular chariots have to manually dodge, and thatsa great way to get stuck if done while fighting in melee, as for them not making themselves harder to hit, they send infantry flying away from them every time they do anything, that alone makes the infantry able to hit them about 1/4th as many times if they were stationary and didn't send things flying, only able to kill them
  • MalevolentWaffleMalevolentWaffle Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited August 2021
    Doomflayers were cool and useful once, but they have since gone the way of many good DLC units. R.I.P murder-cycles. Your life was as bright as it was short.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    They were broken at launch..... They were pretty much fine before the mass and rakarth changes, but since then suffer from the same problems all non-bm/gs chariots do, they lose to their optimal targets on the charge for the same reason cav does, and have bigger difficulties with getting stuck in melee than before mass/cohesion (melee chariots).

    CAs attempt to address this issue for the pig chariots with smaller (read tiiiiny) footprints was not a great success to say the least.....
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • griffithx#1314griffithx#1314 Registered Users Posts: 1,502
    I disagree that they were fine before the mass and rakarth changes I think they have been sub par for a long time but it just takes a long time before the community will tolerate a previously OP unit to be addressed especially when they are part of a faction that currently sits near the top in people's minds.

    So imo there was a long period where they were underpowered to some degree but since skaven was considered OP in other ways no one would tolerate them being addressed and brought into useful balance stat until other skaven issues were brought in line.

  • griffithx#1314griffithx#1314 Registered Users Posts: 1,502
    RawSugar said:

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Foomflayers are an excellent tanking unit in SK roster and are also quite good for harassing. They are great in rush builds and effective at capturing archers. In the infantry meta we are in, they are always a solid choice, only Mortars, Globadiers and similar are OP so you generally maximise on thise for anti-infantry.

    When was the last time you personally used them in the game?
    why does this need to be about me. ALL chariots suffer now in current infantry spam meta. But that's a chariot problem, Doomflayers are an excellent unit that many players (including me) used pre-Rakarth patch.
    Edited because i was wrong, but still: just dont countercharge GW infantry and chariots still perform well
    I am hoping people don't conflate this issue with what people believe is going on with cav. I was testing their performance with rear and flank charges while the unit they were charging is being engaged by an anvil (ranked up clanrat with spears).
  • griffithx#1314griffithx#1314 Registered Users Posts: 1,502
    Green0 said:

    I disagree that they were fine before the mass and rakarth changes I think they have been sub par for a long time but it just takes a long time before the community will tolerate a previously OP unit to be addressed especially when they are part of a faction that currently sits near the top in people's minds.

    So imo there was a long period where they were underpowered to some degree but since skaven was considered OP in other ways no one would tolerate them being addressed and brought into useful balance stat until other skaven issues were brought in line.

    they got something like -15 armor, +100g and they were VERY OP before the nerf, they literally beat WILD RIDERS in PROLONGED MELEE.

    I sincerely doubt that a deeply broken unit can go from broken to underpowered with a mere +100g and some minor armor nerf, chances are you are just using the unit wrong/misplaying a ton without realizing it.

    You are wrong on the 2nd statement also, Skaven were never considered OP until the Mortars DLC which iirc is a different DLC than the Doomflayers/Jezzails/Ratlings DLC and a subsequent one.
    We could bypass all this speculation if you would be willing to just install the game get the immovable lord mod and go test for yourself. I feel like you are going on memory and speculation instead of going directly to the units performance in your hands and having an open mind about checking out their performance for yourself.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031

    I disagree that they were fine before the mass and rakarth changes I think they have been sub par for a long time but it just takes a long time before the community will tolerate a previously OP unit to be addressed especially when they are part of a faction that currently sits near the top in people's minds.

    So imo there was a long period where they were underpowered to some degree but since skaven was considered OP in other ways no one would tolerate them being addressed and brought into useful balance stat until other skaven issues were brought in line.

    They weren't stellar but I was more or less a skaven main in a few patches there and I found them very useful vs at the very least dwf, we and emp from memory, and over all viable. They could have been a little cheaper I guess without breaking anything since other aspects of the skaven roster are now nerfed, but I would be careful with buffing their durability. We need to see where chariots land once they see finished fixing chariots in general. At the moment most melee chariots are still bad while the "fixed" ones are broken....
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • griffithx#1314griffithx#1314 Registered Users Posts: 1,502

    I disagree that they were fine before the mass and rakarth changes I think they have been sub par for a long time but it just takes a long time before the community will tolerate a previously OP unit to be addressed especially when they are part of a faction that currently sits near the top in people's minds.

    So imo there was a long period where they were underpowered to some degree but since skaven was considered OP in other ways no one would tolerate them being addressed and brought into useful balance stat until other skaven issues were brought in line.

    They weren't stellar but I was more or less a skaven main in a few patches there and I found them very useful vs at the very least dwf, we and emp from memory, and over all viable. They could have been a little cheaper I guess without breaking anything since other aspects of the skaven roster are now nerfed, but I would be careful with buffing their durability. We need to see where chariots land once they see finished fixing chariots in general. At the moment most melee chariots are still bad while the "fixed" ones are broken....
    Fair enough.
    I still disagree with some of that but I don't think we are really that far off on our perspective overall.
    I am just hoping CA evaluates them along with the rest of the chariots and even if there are very slight changes just knowing they have their eye on them and are trying to adjust them would be good enough for me.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,909
    Flayer have lower mass than chariots, dont expect them to be able to cycle charge like chariots. Any basica cav can eat these guys with no problem. Theres even noobs who think they can destroy wild riders, must be the same ones that think 1 skinwolf can nail 2 arcane
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  • Slayer_Yannir#8069Slayer_Yannir#8069 Registered Users Posts: 2,367
    yst said:

    Flayer have lower mass than chariots, dont expect them to be able to cycle charge like chariots. Any basica cav can eat these guys with no problem. Theres even noobs who think they can destroy wild riders, must be the same ones that think 1 skinwolf can nail 2 arcane

    Having low mass is intentional so that they can't push through cavalry. Flayers were always relying on being able to send infantry flying but now that infantry is harder to knock back/down, that doesn't work as well as it was designed to when the unit was released.

    How to adjust for that? I don't know but they do need some help.
    Formerly known as Yannir. Oaths have been taken.
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