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Monthly bret wish list for an rework ( multiplayer )

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  • Cosmic_Lich#1188Cosmic_Lich#1188 Registered Users Posts: 595
    Green0 said:


    grail, and blood knights would have killed demigryph beast hundreds times over to become who they are. And even killed way bigger monsters.

    if you wanna go by lore, then Grail Knights are like 20-50 for whole Bretonnia so they should be 0-10 max per Bret army given that not every Grail Knight would rally to a small battle at once... not to mention they should be 0-1.

    Can't use lore only where it suits, given how GK are implemented in TT and in this game, they are basically a bit more elite cavalry and that's fine. There are a lot of other 'badasses' in the lore including Blood Knights, Dragon Princes (at their peak glory they rode small drakes in battle) etc. Warhammer lore is full of "my faction does this better" vibes in each army book and in short lore shouldn't be used for balancing.
    Sure Grail knights are very rare, which is why a lot of us think there should be a smaller unit model with better stats to better mirror that. But saying there is at most 50 in total is a bit exaggeratory. Yet to your point I think Blood Knights and Dragon Princes should also get this treatment. Slightly smaller unit counts with slightly better stats to compensate.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:


    grail, and blood knights would have killed demigryph beast hundreds times over to become who they are. And even killed way bigger monsters.

    if you wanna go by lore, then Grail Knights are like 20-50 for whole Bretonnia so they should be 0-10 max per Bret army given that not every Grail Knight would rally to a small battle at once... not to mention they should be 0-1.

    Can't use lore only where it suits, given how GK are implemented in TT and in this game, they are basically a bit more elite cavalry and that's fine. There are a lot of other 'badasses' in the lore including Blood Knights, Dragon Princes (at their peak glory they rode small drakes in battle) etc. Warhammer lore is full of "my faction does this better" vibes in each army book and in short lore shouldn't be used for balancing.
    Sure Grail knights are very rare, which is why a lot of us think there should be a smaller unit model with better stats to better mirror that. But saying there is at most 50 in total is a bit exaggeratory. Yet to your point I think Blood Knights and Dragon Princes should also get this treatment. Slightly smaller unit counts with slightly better stats to compensate.
    the point I was trying to make actually is that this game is true to tabletop, in lore everyone is a 'badass', that's how they wrote the armybooks, every army book says their race is the best and yatta yatta.

    And in Tabletop, Grail Knights had some perks like iirc 2 Wounds and WS 5, but other than that were pretty comparable to other human soldiers.
    Lmao true to tabletop
    Ya eagle allariele
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    Tabletop is just a guide, and shouldnt be anything more. Is a different game medium and a different business model. It wasnt perfect and no reason to always just follow it when it suits you green0
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,916
    edited August 2021
    Green0 said:

    the point I was trying to make actually is that this game is true to tabletop, in lore everyone is a 'badass', that's how they wrote the armybooks, every army book says their race is the best and yatta yatta.

    And in Tabletop, Grail Knights had some perks like iirc 2 Wounds and WS 5, but other than that were pretty comparable to other human soldiers.

    At no point did Grail Knights have more than 1 wound. They aren't space marines they are just #blessed. It's like better stats, perfect vigor and 20% physical resistance isn't that good?

    Lower unit counts is not an advantage in most cases.

    There is always a small chance CA will introduce Questing Beasts. Would be really weird having questing beasts with the same stats and unit size as Grail Knights.

    I wouldn't mind a small +10% MR bump on the Banner of Blood Keep as well as Hunger.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,914
    edited August 2021
    Grails arent even that good on tabletop, the older version they have same str as questing both at 4.

    Ppl dont even use grails in the past when questing knights r on lance. Its only in the later version gw changed them to 2h so ppl would use grails more. Even then many bret players use that rare slot for trebs. Its very common to play a bret with 0 grails fielded. Apart from the mad leon grail spam.




    I rather CA make a return of foot grails. So much more useful for the army. Grail inf with flails, morning stars etc. great wep foot grails

    And seriously can we have squires to what they really are, archers

    Or yeoman skirmishers 360, so bret have a proper army all based from tabletop
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  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    yst said:

    Grails arent even that good on tabletop, the older version they have same str as questing both at 4.

    Ppl dont even use grails in the past when questing knights r on lance. Its only in the later version gw changed them to 2h so ppl would use grails more. Even then many bret players use that rare slot for trebs. Its very common to play a bret with 0 grails fielded. Apart from the mad leon grail spam.




    I rather CA make a return of foot grails. So much more useful for the army. Grail inf with flails, morning stars etc. great wep foot grails

    And seriously can we have squires to what they really are, archers

    Or yeoman skirmishers 360, so bret have a proper army all based from tabletop

    6th ed Grail knights were the strongest cav in the game. They used to be one of he only rank and file with 2 attacks before that was given out like candy in 7th and 8th. Even in 8th they were good. A lance of 12 could do 28 attacks on the charge vs blood knight's 25 or chaos knight's 20.

    And lets not go backwards with the roster. If you want better archers yeoman foot archers makes the most sense at this point. Squires should get a mounted version with a polearm though.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
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  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,914
    Lots of bret feature arent in game

    Lady blessing r entire army of knights, that includes realms, errants, questing and all knights, in here its only grails.

    Arrow formation, stakes, all not included.
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  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 18,952

    saweendra said:

    Update/Rework Stuff:

      Units:
    • Grail Knights/Guardians reworked to 45 unit count with more hp and better stats.
    • Normal Pegasus Knights reworked to 36 unit count, but with similar total hp.
    • Sword and Board Knights Errant variant.
    • Lance Formation reworked to give less charge bonus, but now ignores 25% charge defence.
    • Grail Guardian ROR with Guardian passive.
    • More ROR in general please.
    • A tech to buff Squires stats.
    • A tech to reduce recruitment time for Reliquae and Blessed Field Trebuchet. Probably also costs gold like Charity.
    • +1 Melee Defence for Blessed Field Trebuchet.

      Lords and Heroes:
    • Unique skills for Fay Enchantress, Prophetesses, and Damsels.
    • Unique skills for LL Lords, Lords, and Paladins.
    • Fay skill tree rework to have less junk about Battle pilgrims and more about Fay magic.
    • Rework Gridle of Gold and Power Familiar to be magic items. Girdle of Gold would be armor and Power Familiar would be a talisman rather than both being skills.
    • Fay magic items buffed to have more stat increases and abilities:
    • >Girdle of Gold to give melee defence.
    • >Chalice of potions to give extra HP. Possibly a rework to reflect the different colors.
    • >Power Familiar to grant a spell from one of the Bretonnian Lores not accessible to the Fay, similar to Chalice of potions.
    • >Morgiana's mirror would be changed to reflect all of her spells, not just Lore of Life (see next point).
    • Fay Mixed Spells of the Bretonnian Lores.
    • Fay Greater Arcane Conduit.
    • Fay mortis engine nerf.
    • Unicorn for Prophetesses.
    • Damsel redesign to not look like Bobby Hill.
    • Green knight having a small skill tree with few skills. Each skill point is granted based on Chivalry tier. Or maybe just give him slight buffs per Chivalry tier.
    • Green Knight can spawn on any Lord of player choice at any moment of summoning him. Not just faction leader.
    • Perfect vigor for Green Knight.
    • Magic attacks and Perfect Vigor for Louen. He already starts with it in Campaign. Just increase his cost a bit.
    • Amalric d' Gaudaron as a unique Paladin for The Fay Enchantress start. Similar to Henri Le Massif for Repanse, but anti-undead focused.
    • Repanse having a skill to be anti-chaos. She beheaded a Chaos Lord as her first great accomplishment.

      Faction:
    • Chivalry tiers granting increasing levels of replenishment.
    • Slight replenishment increase for growth buildings. (Mod by me)
    • All new tech available to all lords, not just Repanse. (Mod by me)
    • Garrison rework for a few better units.
    • Tier 3 walls shooting anything but exploding cows. Siege rework I am looking at you for tower variation choice.
      Siege Workshop building being a t4 building instead of a t5.
      Unification of Bretonnia Tech to give +2 control like Charity does.

    DLC Stuff:

    • Lost Son hero as a Sword Master of Hoeth type caster.
    • Sons of Bretonnia as 12 unit count as Aspiring Champions, but with 1 or 2 bound spells like Zoats.
    • Lake Lions as Aquatic War Lions of Chrace with some other stats also shifted around.
    • Questing Beast mount option for Lords and Paladins.
    • Questing Beast Cavalry for ground alternative to Hippogryph monstrous cav. Probably also given to Sons of Bretonnia and Lost Sons.
    grial knights are already 45 models ? did you mean another model count

    and sons of bretonnia and lost sons are same thing as far as i am aware

    And Landuin for that hybrid melee caster goodness
    some minor nitpicks any way love it.
    My bad on the 45. The model count is 60 on ultra where most of the game is balanced and its how I play. It seems that these 60 model counts go by 12s. So I should have put 48.

    There is no difference, just different names. I thought it would be neat if there was a hero type of these elite. Same how Exalted heroes are better Aspiring Champions are better Chosen and so on. The name could be interchanged so "Son of Bretonnia" could be the Hero while "Lost Sons" are the units. It doesn't matter to me.

    Landuin is clearly a hero type of character so we know these types of characters exist. He would probably be a unique hero for Louen. Maybe even a fun quest to recruit him.
    the thing is its implied he was the leader of the lost sons so that would palce the guy in a commander role and very high up in bret hierarchy as he is a direct subordinate and the leader of the lady's personal knight order,

    if bretonnia was dlc race i see him as LH but as it stands i think he is the best candidate to LL because he adds unique role as mage hybrid, has no start postion issues, ties in with lot of missing / possible units and themes , has the aility for good SP mechanics with interactions of the court of the lady.



    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 962
    Stop handing out perfect vigor to lords like it’s candy unless it’s situational like centigors. It’s bad enough on Sigvald and he doesn’t even have a mount.

    Fine with adding lord hero options to main faction though more diversity is always better.
  • FedakynFedakyn Registered Users Posts: 38
    edited August 2021
    My ideal changes:

    1. Fey's Mortis efect definitely needs to be nerfed significantly, that alone changes Brettonia's identity in a less then Ideal way. It may even be carrying the faction...Mixed lore of magic would be cool on her and maybe some MD back from that nerf to compensate feels logical, but the mortis effect is a real problem

    2. Repanse's blind effect I do believe should last longer then the blip it does, and I would not mind seeing her buffed a little in that way

    3. Louen really should have perfect vigor it would just make too much sense, though he is good so a cost increase to match seems wise.

    4. Damsels: Aura of the lady I personally have always though should be stronger and think would give the rather generic casters more identity

    5. Paladins: more a note from me: they may be a little under-costed but lower costed knights/hero's is sort of core to the identity of bretonia's roster and they do not feel so overtuned that "fixing" that makes sense to me.

    6. Peasent mob: I think are not so secretly too cheap for what they offer: (+25 gold)

    7. Have always thought that battle pilgrims Charge bonus was always oddly low for their class, especially as fanatics. +4 CB think work and they'd still under-perform i little; I'd like to see it anyway

    8. Foot squires: While i get Bretonia should not have elite infantry a little more MD (say +4 to put them closer in line to other mid tier infantry I think would be welcome to most.

    9. Grail knights:I think are fine at there model count as mirroring blood knights is both quite thematic fitting in game terms. Both could get more elite with fewer models in the cold ones vein (dragon princes too); but i think this is fine. I do think they are too fragile for their cost which is why they feel less usable but I would just add say +4 HP per model-they feel close to good for what they are just a little fragile.

    10. Grail guardians I think should see a slight melee attack buff (+2-4). Like the grail knights they do under-perform their cost a little considering the factions Identity so think need a slight buff.

    11. Blessed trebuchets: while inaccurate in general paying more for what ends up being even less accurate trebuchets given chevrons confuses me. I'd like to see a sligh buff to the blessed variants accuracy.







  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Prefect vigor on louen is a bit of sigvald 2.0 is the only problem. Hard to get right with respect to the late game with high armour, (flying) fast mounts and regen. I fully understand the reluctance to go there.
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  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 2,007
    I think perfect vigor for louen until he routs once just like his healing.

    More thematic and less OP
  • FedakynFedakyn Registered Users Posts: 38
    edited August 2021
    Green0 said:

    Fedakyn said:

    My ideal changes:

    1. Fey's Mortis efect definitely needs to be nerfed significantly, that alone changes Brettonia's identity in a less then Ideal way. It may even be carrying the faction...Mixed lore of magic would be cool on her and maybe some MD back from that nerf to compensate feels logical, but the mortis effect is a real problem

    2. Repanse's blind effect I do believe should last longer then the blip it does, and I would not mind seeing her buffed a little in that way

    3. Louen really should have perfect vigor it would just make too much sense, though he is good so a cost increase to match seems wise.

    4. Damsels: Aura of the lady I personally have always though should be stronger and think would give the rather generic casters more identity

    5. Paladins: more a note from me: they may be a little under-costed but lower costed knights/hero's is sort of core to the identity of bretonia's roster and they do not feel so overtuned that "fixing" that makes sense to me.

    6. Peasent mob: I think are not so secretly too cheap for what they offer: (+25 gold)

    7. Have always thought that battle pilgrims Charge bonus was always oddly low for their class, especially as fanatics. +4 CB think work and they'd still under-perform i little; I'd like to see it anyway

    8. Foot squires: While i get Bretonia should not have elite infantry a little more MD (say +4 to put them closer in line to other mid tier infantry I think would be welcome to most.

    9. Grail knights:I think are fine at there model count as mirroring blood knights is both quite thematic fitting in game terms. Both could get more elite with fewer models in the cold ones vein (dragon princes too); but i think this is fine. I do think they are too fragile for their cost which is why they feel less usable but I would just add say +4 HP per model-they feel close to good for what they are just a little fragile.

    10. Grail guardians I think should see a slight melee attack buff (+2-4). Like the grail knights they do under-perform their cost a little considering the factions Identity so think need a slight buff.

    11. Blessed trebuchets: while inaccurate in general paying more for what ends up being even less accurate trebuchets given chevrons confuses me. I'd like to see a sligh buff to the blessed variants accuracy.







    anything else a Bret fanboy wishes to see buffed? You just asked to buff 1/2 the units in the roster, some not small buffs in there too and Bret is doing fine. If anything, Bret needs nerfs, not buffs
    Mostly its a desire to even out the effectiveness of the roster... the biggest true buff might be to the mid tier infantry in that list...which would still under-perform its class significantly and would have a much weaker hero blob to back it up...so its hard to see where the net positive to these buffs you allude to are coming from. Its a number of minor tweaks-to a noticeably moderate amount of units (7), to be fair, and assuming your serious here at this point and not just provoking...that does actually does make common sense if Fey changes are considered.

    In more practical game theory terms a number of minor buffs to undervalued units while nerfing a core meta for a faction is often a practical nerf to said faction as a whole; the versatility can mitigate this but surprisingly often its just not enough, and given the prevalence of Fey this is realistically a real concern. Any faction whose power often comes from a particular power source that sees it drop in value can see lots of knock on effects so its worth thinking about the value seen in the overall roster when this is considered, This was of course true with way-watchers for wood elves, is it is true to a certain extent if we observe morathi now, not to mention other instances of lord dominance throughout the life of the game indicating this consideration to be a good thing. Indeed, often times a number of buffs can be seen with a nerf to a faction core; this theory playing out out in real experience of the game. Its not really new or surprising even, Its actually pretty common best practice honestly and what I'd think any of us would want for any faction really.

    Anyway, we are honestly discussing a mid tier faction sort of on par with dark elves; more or less consensus I've read and played so even if you wish to personally diverge from that point its not like we can possibly be thinking like were seeing a meta powerhouse by any real estimation. So net neutral makes sense here...and believe it or not this does not feel like its even that, but i want to be careful.

    Adding versatility to a limited roster while targeting its obvious and dominant crutches is the kind of balance a faction with limited options NEEDS for any semblance of balance while maintaining interest. That's always the goal here. Its not easy and as you've just indicated through your response it can require some context as changes have to be more numerous and may not be intuitive because of the changes coming to entrenched values. if your ever serious about it you could even contribute; of course your reply might just require you to say why you think bretonian infantry is best performing as is if fey blobs are heavily nerfed, or why making grails slightly more tempting in the age of questing knights is a problem,or how repanse is so meta that a minor buff is problematic...the changes here are not what you seem to think they are my friend they may be numerous but they are more considered at least then some instinctual insult based quip.
  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,687

    Prefect vigor on louen is a bit of sigvald 2.0 is the only problem. Hard to get right with respect to the late game with high armour, (flying) fast mounts and regen. I fully understand the reluctance to go there.

    It's understandable but it would make a nice change from fay+double paladin every damn game


  • Stacks_LeeStacks_Lee Registered Users Posts: 364
    GK having fewer models certainly makes sense from a lore perspective, but as long as they are "human-sized" cav and use human-sized cav animations they would only suffer, even if you pump up their stats.
  • whymakemedothiswhymakemedothis Registered Users Posts: 117
    I doubt CA will touch the Fay's mortis damage outside of a full rework as I think they see it as part of her core design. On that the last time they nerfed her they reduced her durability by reducing her melee defense. That suggests that CA thinks her DPS is fine but that she is surviving in the thick of battle too well. Part of this problem is the stacking of physical resistance(hello fay double paladin) combined with her high magic resistance which givers her an effective ward save.

    In game 3 when magic resistance is changed to spell resistance this will change and magic damage will finally be able to bypass her resistances making her easier to kill. I think CA may very well wait until then to see how that plays out before making any further changes to her.

    Also in game 3 if we get a land toggle for some flyers it would address some of the things people keep asking for Bretonnia. Firstly RPK that can land would essentially be a low model count GK and Hippos that can land would be a genuine monstrous cavalry option.

    As for Henri I'm against adding him to the main faction as he is more powerful than a generic Bret lord and was obviously added to the Chevalier's to make up for the fact that Repanse can't fly. What I would rather see is Paladins reworked into a more expensive melee hero option and given a Hiippogryph mount(losing their BvL when mounted on one).

    For Damsels in game 3 I'd like to see Aura of the Lady changed to 20% spell resistance and given a Barded Warhorse mount option so they can better support Knights by having the same speed.

    Agree Prophetess could definitely use a unicorn mount.

    Just on Prophetess' and Damsels. I was reading the wiki and it states that beyond their casting abilities they could perform feats of magic, Aura of the Lady is one such feat. To me this sounds a lot like Empire warrior priests battle prayers. If Bretonnia are stuck with just two generic hero options implementing more feats of magic for these characters would turn them into hybrid battle wizards/warrior priests opening up more options for Bretonnia. For example I could imagine double damsel builds where only one had spells and the other equipped with just their feats of magic used just as an Empire player uses a warrior priest. This would be balanced by cost where a fully decked out Prophetess on a Pegasus would cost in excess of 3000 gold.

    It would also be nice if Repanse's halo ability had a reduced cool down.

    Finally RPK are essentially flying GK however they have a lower AP ratio than them. I'd like to see that increased to be the same.
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