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Humans vs Elves: Which race would win in an all out war?

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  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601
    edited August 25

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,764

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    I agree.

    Humans have guns. Guns go boom.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,764
    edited August 26

    So? A bunch of human barbarians from the Norse have still proven themselves as too much to handle for DE. And that wasn't the main force, the main invasion was marching on Middenheim.


    If we include the Bad Times Elves just grow stronger don't know why you would want this.It is like a whole different story where everyone becomes overpowered
    How do the elves becomes stronger? The two most populated elf nations are destroyed and they have to move in with the wood elfs. A few character get strong but over all the elf race is **** in the end times.
    Remind me what happens to the human nations in ET?
    Your sig is very large.

    The ET can be discarded as so much chaff. It's mediocre writing done to hurredly kill the setting.

    Comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,764
    Bereaver said:

    I like Elves and I like Humans, why must they fight? I mean, Wood Elves and High Elves are like Empire's best buddies, with High Elves establishing Colleges of Magic, actively trading with all human nations, Wood Elves gifting Karl Franz his famous mount Deathclaw and Elven Goddess Lileath being the patron deity of
    Bretonnia.

    I believe that more interesting match-up is Good Humans and Elves against Bad Humans and Elves - HE, Empire, WE, Bretonnia, Kislev, Cathay against all Chaos barbarians and Dark Elves, at least it is more believable.

    Good idea for another thread :D.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601
    edited August 25

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601

    So? A bunch of human barbarians from the Norse have still proven themselves as too much to handle for DE. And that wasn't the main force, the main invasion was marching on Middenheim.


    If we include the Bad Times Elves just grow stronger don't know why you would want this.It is like a whole different story where everyone becomes overpowered
    How do the elves becomes stronger? The two most populated elf nations are destroyed and they have to move in with the wood elfs. A few character get strong but over all the elf race is **** in the end times.
    Remind me what happens to the human nations in ET?
    Empire does most of the heavy lifting vs Archaon and is the only reason Archaon didn't open Middenheim's portal a lot earlier and ended it sooner?

    While Teclis sabotages them by stealing Ulric's flame.

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    So? A bunch of human barbarians from the Norse have still proven themselves as too much to handle for DE. And that wasn't the main force, the main invasion was marching on Middenheim.


    If we include the Bad Times Elves just grow stronger don't know why you would want this.It is like a whole different story where everyone becomes overpowered
    How do the elves becomes stronger? The two most populated elf nations are destroyed and they have to move in with the wood elfs. A few character get strong but over all the elf race is **** in the end times.
    Remind me what happens to the human nations in ET?
    Your sig is very large.

    The ET can be discarded as so much chaff. It's mediocre writing done to hurredly kill the setting.

    *Hello, thank you for reading this! Please note this comment was made in jest on a mechanic of the forum and is no way an actual comment on moderator actions and should not be treated as such.
    I don't like the ET but they bring it up.I thought you would understand the bigger the better

    Anyways another example of elves sacking human cities


    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
    Germany eventually lost air superiority in battle over Britain. And while navy superiority did enable the invasion, it would've been impossible without sufficient land forces which UK didn't have. Sure, it might be an oversimplification but Elves being able to take human ports doesn't mean they can hold them or advance on land if they don't have sufficient manpower. As far as Athel Loren goes, entering the forest is of course very dangerous, but if entire nations decide that it should go I think it will eventually get chopped down, the defensive magic relies on the forest itself to exist which is why wood elves and tree spirits usually don't like people with axes. WE never had to deal with a whole nation wanting to wipe them out, let alone multiple ones. They did almost lose to a semi sentient goatman and his horde of wretches and mutants a few times though.

    How are Tamurkhan's forces outnumbered? The description of the empire force defending the city says thousands, while the horde is tens of thousands. While it's hard to gauge the exact numbers Tamurkhan definitely doesn't have more than 90 000 and Nuln having 20k defenders would be a generous estimate. Most likely Tamurkhan's horde outnumbers the defenders at least 2 to 1, not the other way around. Elves would be in a similar situation attacking the fortifications if they decided to invade. The horde did suffer from Greenskins, but the tens of thousands are the forces that successfully made it through the Black Fire Path and humans got no help fighting that.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
    Germany eventually lost air superiority in battle over Britain. And while navy superiority did enable the invasion, it would've been impossible without sufficient land forces which UK didn't have. Sure, it might be an oversimplification but Elves being able to take human ports doesn't mean they can hold them or advance on land if they don't have sufficient manpower. As far as Athel Loren goes, entering the forest is of course very dangerous, but if entire nations decide that it should go I think it will eventually get chopped down, the defensive magic relies on the forest itself to exist which is why wood elves and tree spirits usually don't like people with axes. WE never had to deal with a whole nation wanting to wipe them out, let alone multiple ones. They did almost lose to a semi sentient goatman and his horde of wretches and mutants a few times though.

    How are Tamurkhan's forces outnumbered? The description of the empire force defending the city says thousands, while the horde is tens of thousands. While it's hard to gauge the exact numbers Tamurkhan definitely doesn't have more than 90 000 and Nuln having 20k defenders would be a generous estimate. Most likely Tamurkhan's horde outnumbers the defenders at least 2 to 1, not the other way around. Elves would be in a similar situation attacking the fortifications if they decided to invade. The horde did suffer from Greenskins, but the tens of thousands are the forces that successfully made it through the Black Fire Path and humans got no help fighting that.
    Britain was in a strong position because of its navy and airforce. It stopped Germany from expanding and held it in a deadlock. Britain could’ve simply carried on an air war and then gone for peace.

    However, that doesn’t change the fact that without naval superiority the allies wouldn’t have been able to land or even more it stopped Germany from even considering to invade. Germany had their supplies cut in Africa and had to retreat.. why? BSP.

    Maybe 30,000 can’t fight maybe it’s not such a big number. The fact remains that a defender of a fortified city has the advantage especially if numbers are equal. Chaos must attack because reinforcements will arrive eventually. A roughly equal number of troops will cause the attacker huge issues, especially if the defenders had ample time to prepare (which they did).

    I mean if you think that’s an impressive victory fine, I just don’t think it is.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,764

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
    Germany eventually lost air superiority in battle over Britain. And while navy superiority did enable the invasion, it would've been impossible without sufficient land forces which UK didn't have. Sure, it might be an oversimplification but Elves being able to take human ports doesn't mean they can hold them or advance on land if they don't have sufficient manpower. As far as Athel Loren goes, entering the forest is of course very dangerous, but if entire nations decide that it should go I think it will eventually get chopped down, the defensive magic relies on the forest itself to exist which is why wood elves and tree spirits usually don't like people with axes. WE never had to deal with a whole nation wanting to wipe them out, let alone multiple ones. They did almost lose to a semi sentient goatman and his horde of wretches and mutants a few times though.

    How are Tamurkhan's forces outnumbered? The description of the empire force defending the city says thousands, while the horde is tens of thousands. While it's hard to gauge the exact numbers Tamurkhan definitely doesn't have more than 90 000 and Nuln having 20k defenders would be a generous estimate. Most likely Tamurkhan's horde outnumbers the defenders at least 2 to 1, not the other way around. Elves would be in a similar situation attacking the fortifications if they decided to invade. The horde did suffer from Greenskins, but the tens of thousands are the forces that successfully made it through the Black Fire Path and humans got no help fighting that.
    Solid points made here.
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  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 107
    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 107

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    edited August 26

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    I suppose those pirates also had air superiority? The dwarfs tried to burn the forest down in the aftermaths of the War of the Beard and yet were driven off even though the WE were just forming as a their own thing.The Wood Elves are ambushers and could use their world roots for guerrilla warfare

    I am also not aware how would the humans manage to move armies all the way from far away lands like Cathay undeterred when they do not have control over the seas

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830

    So? A bunch of human barbarians from the Norse have still proven themselves as too much to handle for DE. And that wasn't the main force, the main invasion was marching on Middenheim.


    If we include the Bad Times Elves just grow stronger don't know why you would want this.It is like a whole different story where everyone becomes overpowered
    How do the elves becomes stronger? The two most populated elf nations are destroyed and they have to move in with the wood elfs. A few character get strong but over all the elf race is **** in the end times.
    Remind me what happens to the human nations in ET?
    Your sig is very large.

    The ET can be discarded as so much chaff. It's mediocre writing done to hurredly kill the setting.

    *Hello, thank you for reading this! Please note this comment was made in jest on a mechanic of the forum and is no way an actual comment on moderator actions and should not be treated as such.
    I don't like the ET but they bring it up.I thought you would understand the bigger the better

    Anyways another example of elves sacking human cities

    All of ET can be blamed on Lileath and Teclis suffering a sudden bout of lethal stupidity. ET would have not happened at if those two clowns hadn't meddled with things in the most moronic way possible.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    I suppose those pirates also had air superiority? The dwarfs tried to burn the forest down in the aftermaths of the War of the Beard and yet were driven off even though the WE were just forming as a their own thing.The Wood Elves are ambushers and could use their world roots for guerrilla warfare

    I am also not aware how would the humans would manage to move armies all the way from far away lands like Cathay or other far away lands undeterred when they do not have control over the seas
    It's the power of bad writing and terrible worldbuilding, the one and only reason the elves could actually remain relevant.


  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    edited August 26
    All of ET can be blamed on Lileath and Teclis suffering a sudden bout of lethal stupidity. ET would have not happened at if those two clowns hadn't meddled with things in the most moronic way possible.


    Why are you arguing about ET? It is really irrelivant who is at fault for it to the topic human/elves war

    It's the power of bad writing and terrible worldbuilding, the one and only reason the elves could actually remain relevant.

    If you hate whf lore/worldbuilding so much why are you arguing in a topic which is about hypotetical war in that world?

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601
    edited August 26

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
    Germany eventually lost air superiority in battle over Britain. And while navy superiority did enable the invasion, it would've been impossible without sufficient land forces which UK didn't have. Sure, it might be an oversimplification but Elves being able to take human ports doesn't mean they can hold them or advance on land if they don't have sufficient manpower. As far as Athel Loren goes, entering the forest is of course very dangerous, but if entire nations decide that it should go I think it will eventually get chopped down, the defensive magic relies on the forest itself to exist which is why wood elves and tree spirits usually don't like people with axes. WE never had to deal with a whole nation wanting to wipe them out, let alone multiple ones. They did almost lose to a semi sentient goatman and his horde of wretches and mutants a few times though.

    How are Tamurkhan's forces outnumbered? The description of the empire force defending the city says thousands, while the horde is tens of thousands. While it's hard to gauge the exact numbers Tamurkhan definitely doesn't have more than 90 000 and Nuln having 20k defenders would be a generous estimate. Most likely Tamurkhan's horde outnumbers the defenders at least 2 to 1, not the other way around. Elves would be in a similar situation attacking the fortifications if they decided to invade. The horde did suffer from Greenskins, but the tens of thousands are the forces that successfully made it through the Black Fire Path and humans got no help fighting that.
    Britain was in a strong position because of its navy and airforce. It stopped Germany from expanding and held it in a deadlock. Britain could’ve simply carried on an air war and then gone for peace.

    However, that doesn’t change the fact that without naval superiority the allies wouldn’t have been able to land or even more it stopped Germany from even considering to invade. Germany had their supplies cut in Africa and had to retreat.. why? BSP.

    Maybe 30,000 can’t fight maybe it’s not such a big number. The fact remains that a defender of a fortified city has the advantage especially if numbers are equal. Chaos must attack because reinforcements will arrive eventually. A roughly equal number of troops will cause the attacker huge issues, especially if the defenders had ample time to prepare (which they did).

    I mean if you think that’s an impressive victory fine, I just don’t think it is.
    Defending forces are described as "thousands" and they didn't use militia, so I seriously doubt they would have more than 20k professional soldiers there. If we add militia it could probably go up to like 60k at most assuming 120k population but it wasn't used. My guesstimate would be around 15-20k Empire knights & soldiers vs 30-40k Chaos forces though since WH is not really good at specifying numbers it's as good as any. Considering Chaos warriors are pretty much the most terrifying warriors in the setting that's pretty impressive in my book. Artillery and gunpowder seem to be good equalisers. Regardless of whether you think it's impressive or not, it means that empire army is most likely capable of beating a similarly sized elf army as well on the defence. So elves would most likely need at least comparable numbers to humans to successfully overrun the whole continent, which they don't have.

    By the best population estimates I've seen (again tricky since GW is inconsistent with numbers) there are probably about 10 times as many humans as elves just in the known Old World. If we add Cathay might as well go to 20x. Elves have the advantage in that a higher percentage of their population can fight, but even if we discount 2/3 of the human population that's still a big advantage. And elves mobilising to the last elf and leaving no one to maintain the infrastructure would be disastrous for them as well.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    A single dwarf force trying to attack Athel Loren also can't equate to the whole nations dedicating themselves to its extermination. I would again mention that Morghur alone came close to wiping out the Wood Elves a few times.

  • Icebern12Icebern12 Registered Users Posts: 202

    Icebern12 said:

    MikhaelH said:

    Niggey said:

    It would be really cool to get from GW an estimation on how big the populations of each race and faction are. We always talk about Bretonnia and the Empire because we know so much about them, but if you look at the WH world map, WH Europe and Ulthuan are very tiny compared to the whole world map.
    If we speak about numbers, on Ulthuan lives a dying race, on a land which is itself very very very tiny. WH North America is huge, but a very bad place to live. And correct me if I am wrong, but there are less DEs than HEs which, like mentioned, are already very few on their tiny land. WE are so few I dont know if they tip the scale.
    So I guess the overall numbers of elves is reaaaaally low.
    Lets look at the other side, WH Europe is also not very big, but I would guess a lot more densly populated as Ulthuan.
    Empire, Southern Realms, Kislev and Bretonnia alone should have more people than the elves races, otherwise why would they be calles dying races if they have more people than the humans in Europe?

    Then the big unknowns come into play like others mentioned.
    Do you see how big Cathay, Ind, Nippon, Araby and Southern Lands land mass is in comparison to the elve lands? Not very funny (jk: it is). They dont even have to be that dense populated and they dwarf the other regions by far.
    And we dont even know if there are additional humans faction and tribes in the Khuresh, Eastern stepps etc. And additional we count all Norsca human tribes and Chaos waste tribes? Please look at the world map, the elves will run out of arrows so many humans should be there.

    The only way I see for the elves to win is magical feats. And here I dont know what they could be capable of to defeat these astronomical high amount of humans. Really, there should be a vast amount of people vs. Elves.

    I think: Elves couls not win against ALL humans in the whole WH world. They would loose.
    Could they defeat WH Europe, the world we all know? I think think they would have that, but there are still a lot of variables to define.

    Ulthuan is actually massive if you have ever actually looked at a GW map, even accounting for its donut shape.
    It's big, but has also tons of high mountain ranges, so the actual inhabitable area is limited and that's not even mentioning that certains areas are blasted wastelands or otherwise undesirable terrain.
    It does have lots of mountain ranges but the inner kingdoms are the most fertile and safe places in the whole world. That landmass alone could harbour all the elf population and they would still have space left.

    The empire's situation is actually worse than Ulthuan in geography, all those massive forests in the upper half not only hamper growth but orcs and beastmen constantly come out of them.
    It's not about housing a population but about feeding it and the inner circle is way too small for that and there's also way too much forest.

    The Empire has its breadbasket in the southern regions. Of course it has still too much forest as well but that's GW's haphazard worldbuilding at work here as a common theme.
    Ulthuan is a paradise, in particular ellyrion, avelorn, spahery and eataine have an ideal climate. I don't know how you can look at this map and say there is not enough space.



    There is ridiculous space for the elves in the inner kingdoms alone. Take Japan or the Netherlands as real life examples. Japan has absolute crap geography, it's so mountainous only four zones are good for agriculture and large population concentration, that didn't hamper it's growth throughout the centuries.

    The Netherlands is pretty small, and yet it is the second largest exporter of food in the world. It's not so much the space as how you use it.

    But Ulthuan has idillic fields and space even if you take into account the mountains. Food is not a problem for the day to day life the lowest of elves there.
  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 107

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    I wasn't I was talking about the one that happen 300 years before the successful one as the tech of 1600s and 1900s are very different and 1600 is much closer to warhammer. And sure I get what your saying with Navy control but that's not something the Dark elves have. High elves and dark elves might be able to lock down the old world but Cathay is to far away from safe ports and they are to few in number to wage a war on that scale. The black ark range is great because it can allow the DE to raid that far but Black arks are of limited number and rarely face true resistance. Witch would change in the war OP explains.

    If cathay, The empire, the brets + all the other human realms. Have no other enemies to face besides the elves and are all working together for that goal there are going to be massive fleets armed with cannon patrolling the waters within 10 years.

    That doesnt mean that the humans can invade the elfs land but any battle that the elfs lose or dont just dominate means in the long run they lose.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601
    edited August 26
    Speaking of elf naval superiority, they do have the strongest fleet but it still doesn't seem to be large enough to control even their own waters. E.g. Cothique often gets raided by Norscans:

    "The brunt of Norse raids from beyond the Old World also fall upon Cothique and the elves of Cothique have been toughened by centuries of warfare with these fierce human warriors. The small harbours that line the rocky coast of Cothique hold many craft which double as warships in times of need".

    I can't imagine that would happen if the elves had enough naval capacity to intercept every Norscan fleet heading to Ulthuan.

    So while they likely can beat human navy at any individual location, it's a big stretch that they would be able to completely control all the seas around the Old World, even together with the Dark Elves.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
    Germany eventually lost air superiority in battle over Britain. And while navy superiority did enable the invasion, it would've been impossible without sufficient land forces which UK didn't have. Sure, it might be an oversimplification but Elves being able to take human ports doesn't mean they can hold them or advance on land if they don't have sufficient manpower. As far as Athel Loren goes, entering the forest is of course very dangerous, but if entire nations decide that it should go I think it will eventually get chopped down, the defensive magic relies on the forest itself to exist which is why wood elves and tree spirits usually don't like people with axes. WE never had to deal with a whole nation wanting to wipe them out, let alone multiple ones. They did almost lose to a semi sentient goatman and his horde of wretches and mutants a few times though.

    How are Tamurkhan's forces outnumbered? The description of the empire force defending the city says thousands, while the horde is tens of thousands. While it's hard to gauge the exact numbers Tamurkhan definitely doesn't have more than 90 000 and Nuln having 20k defenders would be a generous estimate. Most likely Tamurkhan's horde outnumbers the defenders at least 2 to 1, not the other way around. Elves would be in a similar situation attacking the fortifications if they decided to invade. The horde did suffer from Greenskins, but the tens of thousands are the forces that successfully made it through the Black Fire Path and humans got no help fighting that.
    Britain was in a strong position because of its navy and airforce. It stopped Germany from expanding and held it in a deadlock. Britain could’ve simply carried on an air war and then gone for peace.

    However, that doesn’t change the fact that without naval superiority the allies wouldn’t have been able to land or even more it stopped Germany from even considering to invade. Germany had their supplies cut in Africa and had to retreat.. why? BSP.

    Maybe 30,000 can’t fight maybe it’s not such a big number. The fact remains that a defender of a fortified city has the advantage especially if numbers are equal. Chaos must attack because reinforcements will arrive eventually. A roughly equal number of troops will cause the attacker huge issues, especially if the defenders had ample time to prepare (which they did).

    I mean if you think that’s an impressive victory fine, I just don’t think it is.
    Defending forces are described as "thousands" and they didn't use militia, so I seriously doubt they would have more than 20k professional soldiers there. If we add militia it could probably go up to like 60k at most assuming 120k population but it wasn't used. My guesstimate would be around 15-20k Empire knights & soldiers vs 30-40k Chaos forces though since WH is not really good at specifying numbers it's as good as any. Considering Chaos warriors are pretty much the most terrifying warriors in the setting that's pretty impressive in my book. Artillery and gunpowder seem to be good equalisers. Regardless of whether you think it's impressive or not, it means that empire army is most likely capable of beating a similarly sized elf army as well on the defence. So elves would most likely need at least comparable numbers to humans to successfully overrun the whole continent, which they don't have.

    By the best population estimates I've seen (again tricky since GW is inconsistent with numbers) there are probably about 10 times as many humans as elves just in the known Old World. If we add Cathay might as well go to 20x. Elves have the advantage in that a higher percentage of their population can fight, but even if we discount 2/3 of the human population that's still a big advantage. And elves mobilising to the last elf and leaving no one to maintain the infrastructure would be disastrous for them as well.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    A single dwarf force trying to attack Athel Loren also can't equate to the whole nations dedicating themselves to its extermination. I would again mention that Morghur alone came close to wiping out the Wood Elves a few times.
    Not really. Not forgetting the leadership called in the warriors of surrounding kingdoms, mercenaries and they have the largest artillery store in the Empire. For every artillery shot made by Chaos 100 were returned by the Empire. There army was made up of elites including a powerful magic user on a Dragon and numerous battle wizards. I also find it hard to believe that the city had no trained militia, in times of war most ppl would have reasonable martial skills and the armoury was full. Again, we don’t know the numbers, but the fact the artillery tore through Chaos throughout the battle certainly speaks of their superiority in terms of artillery. This is not an epic victory by any means.

    Dwarfs? Yes, only very special and unique magic users can hope to attack Athel Loren, this is beyond the Ken of the Empire or humans. Not even the Skaven would think of invading apart from one unique Blackseer.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    I wasn't I was talking about the one that happen 300 years before the successful one as the tech of 1600s and 1900s are very different and 1600 is much closer to warhammer. And sure I get what your saying with Navy control but that's not something the Dark elves have. High elves and dark elves might be able to lock down the old world but Cathay is to far away from safe ports and they are to few in number to wage a war on that scale. The black ark range is great because it can allow the DE to raid that far but Black arks are of limited number and rarely face true resistance. Witch would change in the war OP explains.

    If cathay, The empire, the brets + all the other human realms. Have no other enemies to face besides the elves and are all working together for that goal there are going to be massive fleets armed with cannon patrolling the waters within 10 years.

    That doesnt mean that the humans can invade the elfs land but any battle that the elfs lose or dont just dominate means in the long run they lose.
    It is an example of a nation attacking another due to a superior navy. Japanese pirates, I assume did not command naval superiority nor did they work for Japan.

    Japan attempted to invade Korea but lost.. why? Korea had naval superiority.

    According to lore DE has invaded and plundered Cathayan cities.

    Speaking of elf naval superiority, they do have the strongest fleet but it still doesn't seem to be large enough to control even their own waters. E.g. Cothique often gets raided by Norscans:

    "The brunt of Norse raids from beyond the Old World also fall upon Cothique and the elves of Cothique have been toughened by centuries of warfare with these fierce human warriors. The small harbours that line the rocky coast of Cothique hold many craft which double as warships in times of need".

    I can't imagine that would happen if the elves had enough naval capacity to intercept every Norscan fleet heading to Ulthuan.

    So while they likely can beat human navy at any individual location, it's a big stretch that they would be able to completely control all the seas around the Old World, even together with the Dark Elves.

    I like the way you mention the DE as an after thought despite them being professional pirates with numerous floating cities.
  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 107

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
    Germany eventually lost air superiority in battle over Britain. And while navy superiority did enable the invasion, it would've been impossible without sufficient land forces which UK didn't have. Sure, it might be an oversimplification but Elves being able to take human ports doesn't mean they can hold them or advance on land if they don't have sufficient manpower. As far as Athel Loren goes, entering the forest is of course very dangerous, but if entire nations decide that it should go I think it will eventually get chopped down, the defensive magic relies on the forest itself to exist which is why wood elves and tree spirits usually don't like people with axes. WE never had to deal with a whole nation wanting to wipe them out, let alone multiple ones. They did almost lose to a semi sentient goatman and his horde of wretches and mutants a few times though.

    How are Tamurkhan's forces outnumbered? The description of the empire force defending the city says thousands, while the horde is tens of thousands. While it's hard to gauge the exact numbers Tamurkhan definitely doesn't have more than 90 000 and Nuln having 20k defenders would be a generous estimate. Most likely Tamurkhan's horde outnumbers the defenders at least 2 to 1, not the other way around. Elves would be in a similar situation attacking the fortifications if they decided to invade. The horde did suffer from Greenskins, but the tens of thousands are the forces that successfully made it through the Black Fire Path and humans got no help fighting that.
    Britain was in a strong position because of its navy and airforce. It stopped Germany from expanding and held it in a deadlock. Britain could’ve simply carried on an air war and then gone for peace.

    However, that doesn’t change the fact that without naval superiority the allies wouldn’t have been able to land or even more it stopped Germany from even considering to invade. Germany had their supplies cut in Africa and had to retreat.. why? BSP.

    Maybe 30,000 can’t fight maybe it’s not such a big number. The fact remains that a defender of a fortified city has the advantage especially if numbers are equal. Chaos must attack because reinforcements will arrive eventually. A roughly equal number of troops will cause the attacker huge issues, especially if the defenders had ample time to prepare (which they did).

    I mean if you think that’s an impressive victory fine, I just don’t think it is.
    Defending forces are described as "thousands" and they didn't use militia, so I seriously doubt they would have more than 20k professional soldiers there. If we add militia it could probably go up to like 60k at most assuming 120k population but it wasn't used. My guesstimate would be around 15-20k Empire knights & soldiers vs 30-40k Chaos forces though since WH is not really good at specifying numbers it's as good as any. Considering Chaos warriors are pretty much the most terrifying warriors in the setting that's pretty impressive in my book. Artillery and gunpowder seem to be good equalisers. Regardless of whether you think it's impressive or not, it means that empire army is most likely capable of beating a similarly sized elf army as well on the defence. So elves would most likely need at least comparable numbers to humans to successfully overrun the whole continent, which they don't have.

    By the best population estimates I've seen (again tricky since GW is inconsistent with numbers) there are probably about 10 times as many humans as elves just in the known Old World. If we add Cathay might as well go to 20x. Elves have the advantage in that a higher percentage of their population can fight, but even if we discount 2/3 of the human population that's still a big advantage. And elves mobilising to the last elf and leaving no one to maintain the infrastructure would be disastrous for them as well.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    A single dwarf force trying to attack Athel Loren also can't equate to the whole nations dedicating themselves to its extermination. I would again mention that Morghur alone came close to wiping out the Wood Elves a few times.
    Not really. Not forgetting the leadership called in the warriors of surrounding kingdoms, mercenaries and they have the largest artillery store in the Empire. For every artillery shot made by Chaos 100 were returned by the Empire. There army was made up of elites including a powerful magic user on a Dragon and numerous battle wizards. I also find it hard to believe that the city had no trained militia, in times of war most ppl would have reasonable martial skills and the armoury was full. Again, we don’t know the numbers, but the fact the artillery tore through Chaos throughout the battle certainly speaks of their superiority in terms of artillery. This is not an epic victory by any means.

    Dwarfs? Yes, only very special and unique magic users can hope to attack Athel Loren, this is beyond the Ken of the Empire or humans. Not even the Skaven would think of invading apart from one unique Blackseer.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    I wasn't I was talking about the one that happen 300 years before the successful one as the tech of 1600s and 1900s are very different and 1600 is much closer to warhammer. And sure I get what your saying with Navy control but that's not something the Dark elves have. High elves and dark elves might be able to lock down the old world but Cathay is to far away from safe ports and they are to few in number to wage a war on that scale. The black ark range is great because it can allow the DE to raid that far but Black arks are of limited number and rarely face true resistance. Witch would change in the war OP explains.

    If cathay, The empire, the brets + all the other human realms. Have no other enemies to face besides the elves and are all working together for that goal there are going to be massive fleets armed with cannon patrolling the waters within 10 years.

    That doesnt mean that the humans can invade the elfs land but any battle that the elfs lose or dont just dominate means in the long run they lose.
    It is an example of a nation attacking another due to a superior navy. Japanese pirates, I assume did not command naval superiority nor did they work for Japan.

    Japan attempted to invade Korea but lost.. why? Korea had naval superiority.

    According to lore DE has invaded and plundered Cathayan cities.

    Speaking of elf naval superiority, they do have the strongest fleet but it still doesn't seem to be large enough to control even their own waters. E.g. Cothique often gets raided by Norscans:

    "The brunt of Norse raids from beyond the Old World also fall upon Cothique and the elves of Cothique have been toughened by centuries of warfare with these fierce human warriors. The small harbours that line the rocky coast of Cothique hold many craft which double as warships in times of need".

    I can't imagine that would happen if the elves had enough naval capacity to intercept every Norscan fleet heading to Ulthuan.

    So while they likely can beat human navy at any individual location, it's a big stretch that they would be able to completely control all the seas around the Old World, even together with the Dark Elves.

    I like the way you mention the DE as an after thought despite them being professional pirates with numerous floating cities.

    No Japan had superiority korea had 5 ships and managed to win all the imporant fights
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085

    Does anyone have any loreful examples of either with a reference of what they’re actually claiming?

    What’s this example of a few barbarians finishing off the DE? Is this something to be taken at face value or is it people missing a nuance or two? Or did a few barbarians simply walk into Naggatoth and take it?

    Have the humans taken on a substantial daemon/Chaos army without the help of Dwarfs or Elves?

    If so what’s the actual reference?

    Morkar was defeated by Sigmar/humans when humans were a lot more primitive than they are now. Tamurkhan was defeated with no help from elves or dwarfs by just a single human city. Khornate Northmen hordes overrun Nagarroth in the end times, read about the fall of Naggarroth (no, it wasn't just a few barbarians and they didn't just walk in). All these things are easy enough to google.

    The main point, which imo is not supposed to be controversial, but somehow turns out it is, is not that the elves suck, but that humans fight enemies as powerful as elves all the time and thus it's absolutely realistic for them to beat an elf army.
    Not what I would call it a Chaos invasion that would unseat the Elves in their own territory. It was about the third of its size when it stared and they main bulk of the army had been cut off by GS and the speed of their approach had helped as the city in question is one of the largest and most defendable in the Empire. Tamurkhan‘s forces were turning against each other by the time they got to Nuln. I don’t think this horde would’ve had much chance of invading the lands of the HE.

    The problem is everyone was overwhelmed in the End Times so this isn’t evidence of anything.
    Am I arguing that humans can unseat elves in their own territory? I've basically said that humans (if we don't count chaos humans) are strong and numerous enough to fight off the elves in the Old World, but invading Ulthuan and Nagarrond would most likely be too hard for them. Regardless of the size of the invasion, humans are able to beat armies Chaos Warriors and Daemons, without outnumbering them 10 to 1. So it's absolutely reasonable to say they could beat an elf army as well without outnumbering it 10 to 1. The gap between human and elf soldiers is usually exaggerated. If we combine all humans of the Old World, they would significantly outnumber the elves and I don't see how conquering the Old World human nations would be easy for elves either.

    Norse hordes overrunning Nagarroth in ET proves that for example Morathi can't just wave her hand and make them disappear. Which has been used as an argument in this thread, that Morathi and Teclis could take out humanity on their own, which is pretty ridiculous. If you throw enough angry norse barbarians at the Dark Elves, they will fold. The exact number necessary is up to speculation but elves don't win just because they're elves and "magic". Conventional military force still wins wars.
    Are you having a discussion with someone else? I said this army of Chaos wouldn’t be a real issue for the HE.

    We know the human wouldn’t get past the combined Elven Navy but that wasn’t what I was arguing, so I’m not sure why you are.
    Idk, you came in in this thread and started challenging things without actually trying to understand the discussion, so maybe it's you talking to someone else?

    Literally no one in this thread suggested that High Elves can't beat a Chaos army.

    The whole discussion is basically elf fans insisting that elves could effortlessly wipe out the united human nations and counter arguments against it.
    I did understand. I was just confused as to why you were talking about Empire invading the HE when I was talking about Chaos.
    And I was confused as to why the fact that the Chaos invasions humans have beaten could've conquered Ulthuan is relevant here. If humans can beat a Chaos invasion X and elves can beat a Chaos invasion X too that doesn't prove one can beat the other either way. But humans beating Chaos forces does prove they can go up against warriors of a greater skill than even elves and similar magical threats and win. I've probably repeated that point several times now. If an army of 300 000 humans can beat a 100 000 chaos army it's quite realistic that they can beat a similarly sized elf army too, because chaos armies have similar or even higher troop quality than elves. Humans in the Old World outnumber the elves by a very significant margin. This is all.
    Well, that goes with the idea that humans are capable of fighting similar battles to Elves, I don’t think they are. It’s far easier to attack the humans than the Elves, especially when you have naval superiority.

    Again, I’d need a reference for those numbers as the Chaos army was a third of its original size as well as the fact the cohesion was stating to break down.

    In reference to a victory within a war, does it require a huge battle between Elves and humans? Or could the Elves cut off trade for all the major port cities, could the WEs start a clandestine war, easily retreating back to their lands safe in the knowledge they cannon be followed? The DE and HE could invade unprotected areas while confident their own lands can’t be invaded?

    The historical strength of naval superiority can’t be overlooked.
    UK had naval superiority over Germany in WW2 and they also won the air battle, that didn't help them stopping Germany dominating on land. Unless you actually have a strong enough land army to invade with from the sea the fleet alone doesn't mean you can invade and win. DE and HE could raid coastal regions, but that would not give them victory over humans.

    WE would most likely be screwed if all nearby humans turn against them, unlike HE and DE they're not on an island or a different continent and forests can be chopped and burned down.

    WHFB is generally bad with numbers but for example Tamurkhan's horde is said to be tens of thousands even in its diminished state after reaching the Empire. Some quotes on that:

    "Fortified holdfasts, fortresses and watchtowers were smashed to rubble with contemptuous ease, their attackers barely pausing to loot the remains, and it was not until the three-pronged tide of destruction closed with frightening swiftness on Pfeildorf, the province's capital, that the sheer scale of the threat was realised with horror. Reinforcements recalled from Black Fire Pass had not yet arrived and Olger Hoch, the old Margrave, saw his doom in the dust and smoke that the great horde in its tens of thousands kicked up on the horizon, but refused to abandon his city to the enemy, despite calls to do so from the Countess's emissaries"

    The entire population of Nuln is listed as 120,000, obviously not all of them are soldiers. Some heIp was sent from the nearby cities. But it doesn't seem like humans need a massive number advantage to win.

    Some idea on the number of defenders:

    "Nor would they allow the strange and devastating war machines that had crushed Pfeildorf to advance within range of the city — the plan called for their destruction at any cost. in this end nearly a full thousand knights, mounted pistoliers and free riders had drawn up on the rolling downs to the west of the city, while serried ranks of state troops: spearmen, halberdiers, handgunners and cannon batteries awaited the horde upon the raised banks of the flood levies that dominated the peninsular where the mighty rivers of the Aver and the Upper Iteik met, It was this boggy expanse that was the Empire's chosen killing ground, and the bulwark on which they hoped to shatter the horde, in sight of the great city but no closer. Among the thousands that defended the city of Nuin were more than mere soldiers, for this was a matter of faith as much as survival to some, and for the insane flagellant cults devoted to Sigmar and the zealots of half a dozen other faiths, martyrdom in the face of the Great Enemy was a fate to be almost embraced; while at strategic points in the Empire lines, cadres of Battle-Wizards from the Colleges of Magic awaited the ultimate test of their own arcane craft in the fight to come, many having never before witnessed such portentous turbulence in the unseen Winds of Magic that whipped and eddied across the skies and sank formless like fast-rushing riven through the earth, heralding what was to come"

    If we're talking "all humans" we're also talking Cathay, the most populous human state according to the lore, Bretonnia with its superhuman knights, Kislev which fights chaos warriors every other day, Southern Realms etc. It's basically half the world vs a depopulated island of Ulthuan and a barren wasteland of Naggaroth.
    Such a simple argument for such a complex situation that shares very little with WHFB. Germany had, for a while air superiority which in the modern period could almost match control of the seas. Also, the U-Boats for sometime was successful in effective British sea power. Add to that Germany had prepared for many years to attack the UK while it wasn’t in a position to do so. Eventually however, the U-Boat threat was ended, Britain owned the skies over Britain and again, could attack Germany at will. British sea power allowed mass supplies and rendered the German surface fleet all but useless. Air and sea power eventually opened the door to invasion, without it there would’ve been no D-Day landings and no ultimate victory.

    However, just to point out the above example isn’t relevant, due to the Elves almost certainly owning the skies and the Empire not holding any U-Boats.

    You cannot enter WE land without great cost, it’s like entering the warp in some cases. Why do you think the Skaven never invaded apart from maybe once. I’m sure the WEs are more than capable of holding a clandestine war with the surrounding humans.

    In reference to the numbers if we are talking about 10s of thousands then surely that’s up to 90,000 (a little different to 3to1), which means they’re out numbered attacking a fortified position. Note the idea for attacking a fortified position is 3 to 1. We also have the problems of the cohesiveness failing within the army. We can also almost certainly say the Empire received help from the GS in this case.
    Germany eventually lost air superiority in battle over Britain. And while navy superiority did enable the invasion, it would've been impossible without sufficient land forces which UK didn't have. Sure, it might be an oversimplification but Elves being able to take human ports doesn't mean they can hold them or advance on land if they don't have sufficient manpower. As far as Athel Loren goes, entering the forest is of course very dangerous, but if entire nations decide that it should go I think it will eventually get chopped down, the defensive magic relies on the forest itself to exist which is why wood elves and tree spirits usually don't like people with axes. WE never had to deal with a whole nation wanting to wipe them out, let alone multiple ones. They did almost lose to a semi sentient goatman and his horde of wretches and mutants a few times though.

    How are Tamurkhan's forces outnumbered? The description of the empire force defending the city says thousands, while the horde is tens of thousands. While it's hard to gauge the exact numbers Tamurkhan definitely doesn't have more than 90 000 and Nuln having 20k defenders would be a generous estimate. Most likely Tamurkhan's horde outnumbers the defenders at least 2 to 1, not the other way around. Elves would be in a similar situation attacking the fortifications if they decided to invade. The horde did suffer from Greenskins, but the tens of thousands are the forces that successfully made it through the Black Fire Path and humans got no help fighting that.
    Britain was in a strong position because of its navy and airforce. It stopped Germany from expanding and held it in a deadlock. Britain could’ve simply carried on an air war and then gone for peace.

    However, that doesn’t change the fact that without naval superiority the allies wouldn’t have been able to land or even more it stopped Germany from even considering to invade. Germany had their supplies cut in Africa and had to retreat.. why? BSP.

    Maybe 30,000 can’t fight maybe it’s not such a big number. The fact remains that a defender of a fortified city has the advantage especially if numbers are equal. Chaos must attack because reinforcements will arrive eventually. A roughly equal number of troops will cause the attacker huge issues, especially if the defenders had ample time to prepare (which they did).

    I mean if you think that’s an impressive victory fine, I just don’t think it is.
    Defending forces are described as "thousands" and they didn't use militia, so I seriously doubt they would have more than 20k professional soldiers there. If we add militia it could probably go up to like 60k at most assuming 120k population but it wasn't used. My guesstimate would be around 15-20k Empire knights & soldiers vs 30-40k Chaos forces though since WH is not really good at specifying numbers it's as good as any. Considering Chaos warriors are pretty much the most terrifying warriors in the setting that's pretty impressive in my book. Artillery and gunpowder seem to be good equalisers. Regardless of whether you think it's impressive or not, it means that empire army is most likely capable of beating a similarly sized elf army as well on the defence. So elves would most likely need at least comparable numbers to humans to successfully overrun the whole continent, which they don't have.

    By the best population estimates I've seen (again tricky since GW is inconsistent with numbers) there are probably about 10 times as many humans as elves just in the known Old World. If we add Cathay might as well go to 20x. Elves have the advantage in that a higher percentage of their population can fight, but even if we discount 2/3 of the human population that's still a big advantage. And elves mobilising to the last elf and leaving no one to maintain the infrastructure would be disastrous for them as well.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    A single dwarf force trying to attack Athel Loren also can't equate to the whole nations dedicating themselves to its extermination. I would again mention that Morghur alone came close to wiping out the Wood Elves a few times.
    Not really. Not forgetting the leadership called in the warriors of surrounding kingdoms, mercenaries and they have the largest artillery store in the Empire. For every artillery shot made by Chaos 100 were returned by the Empire. There army was made up of elites including a powerful magic user on a Dragon and numerous battle wizards. I also find it hard to believe that the city had no trained militia, in times of war most ppl would have reasonable martial skills and the armoury was full. Again, we don’t know the numbers, but the fact the artillery tore through Chaos throughout the battle certainly speaks of their superiority in terms of artillery. This is not an epic victory by any means.

    Dwarfs? Yes, only very special and unique magic users can hope to attack Athel Loren, this is beyond the Ken of the Empire or humans. Not even the Skaven would think of invading apart from one unique Blackseer.

    There doesn't have to be an invasion as there is not set time for the war to end. The much larger human armies can take the safer slower route and just burn the wood elf out. Also naval raids are great vs undefended ports but now you have just added hundreds of thousands of troops from all over the old world, million if you count Cathay to defend ports from raids. Also griffins are far more common then dragons, adding pegasus knights and dragons are going to start dropping fast even without handgun cannon, volley gun support.

    It never was possible to simply burn the WEs homeland down, a little more complicated than that.

    You cannot consistently keep a major garrison, larger than a Black Ark’s garrison (or 2, plus dragons).

    Cathay was sacked a number of times by the DEs, so it really isn’t that simple.
    And china irl had large issue with pirates from japan but japan was unable to beat them in a land war. The elves can not win this war by raiding ports and not when the human nations will know the raids are coming and it 100% is possible to burn down the wood elf land. Its why Durthu took an axe to the face trying to stop a massive dwarf logging expadtion because it was doing massive dm to the forest. Now its the empire+brets doing the same thing waiting for treemen to come out of the forest to get shot with cannon and bright wizards. It might take most of a life time but that forest is not going to stand that amount of pressure.
    Let's not get into the successful Japanese invasion of China as it would be considered heavy for the forum. Pirates working for themselves can't equate to a national action in reference to gaining sea dominance and and blockading all ports and having the option to send in incursion forces to attack ports or draw forces away from the WE so they can perform major attacks on cities close close to their lands. They could also land assassins or expert clandestine troops like Alth Anar or even communicate with the enemies of man, including the BM and GS.
    I wasn't I was talking about the one that happen 300 years before the successful one as the tech of 1600s and 1900s are very different and 1600 is much closer to warhammer. And sure I get what your saying with Navy control but that's not something the Dark elves have. High elves and dark elves might be able to lock down the old world but Cathay is to far away from safe ports and they are to few in number to wage a war on that scale. The black ark range is great because it can allow the DE to raid that far but Black arks are of limited number and rarely face true resistance. Witch would change in the war OP explains.

    If cathay, The empire, the brets + all the other human realms. Have no other enemies to face besides the elves and are all working together for that goal there are going to be massive fleets armed with cannon patrolling the waters within 10 years.

    That doesnt mean that the humans can invade the elfs land but any battle that the elfs lose or dont just dominate means in the long run they lose.
    It is an example of a nation attacking another due to a superior navy. Japanese pirates, I assume did not command naval superiority nor did they work for Japan.

    Japan attempted to invade Korea but lost.. why? Korea had naval superiority.

    According to lore DE has invaded and plundered Cathayan cities.

    Speaking of elf naval superiority, they do have the strongest fleet but it still doesn't seem to be large enough to control even their own waters. E.g. Cothique often gets raided by Norscans:

    "The brunt of Norse raids from beyond the Old World also fall upon Cothique and the elves of Cothique have been toughened by centuries of warfare with these fierce human warriors. The small harbours that line the rocky coast of Cothique hold many craft which double as warships in times of need".

    I can't imagine that would happen if the elves had enough naval capacity to intercept every Norscan fleet heading to Ulthuan.

    So while they likely can beat human navy at any individual location, it's a big stretch that they would be able to completely control all the seas around the Old World, even together with the Dark Elves.

    I like the way you mention the DE as an after thought despite them being professional pirates with numerous floating cities.

    No Japan had superiority korea had 5 ships and managed to win all the imporant fights
    No, Korea had better naval officers and led the Japanese into a trap, removing naval superiority. If they’d won that final battle the invasion would’ve most likely been successful.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601


    Not really. Not forgetting the leadership called in the warriors of surrounding kingdoms, mercenaries and they have the largest artillery store in the Empire. For every artillery shot made by Chaos 100 were returned by the Empire. There army was made up of elites including a powerful magic user on a Dragon and numerous battle wizards. I also find it hard to believe that the city had no trained militia, in times of war most ppl would have reasonable martial skills and the armoury was full. Again, we don’t know the numbers, but the fact the artillery tore through Chaos throughout the battle certainly speaks of their superiority in terms of artillery. This is not an epic victory by any means.

    Dwarfs? Yes, only very special and unique magic users can hope to attack Athel Loren, this is beyond the Ken of the Empire or humans. Not even the Skaven would think of invading apart from one unique Blackseer.

    Defenders are described as "thousands", attackers as "tens of thousands", that's the most accurate reference we have. I've bumped up the defenders to at about 20k because it seems reasonable with how big the city is. Empire did indeed have artillery superiority, although Tamurkhan had Chaos Dwarf artillery on his side as well. Empire would most likely have artillery superiority vs elves as well, they rely on war machines a lot and have larger armies. Again, the main point is not it being impressive or not, the point is that elves won't trade with humans 10 to 1 in an actual battle. A 3 to 1 trade would likely be a great deal for the humans in terms of winning the war.

    Wood elves are more of a pain in the ass to fight with questionable benefits of doing so, that's why people rarely bother. But they're very much a minor faction, their numbers are many times lower than even HE or Dwarfs. They are also protected by the buffer state of Bretonnia, which helps them a lot, but in this scenario it's against them. Morghur is still a single beastlord who invaded Athel Loren with just his own brayherd and not really even a magic user, he's magical himself but not an actual mage.


    I like the way you mention the DE as an after thought despite them being professional pirates with numerous floating cities.

    It's stated that HE have more powerful navy than DE. Even if we're assume they're equal, I'm not sure a doubled HE navy can control basically all of the world's seas when they fail to control their own waters at times.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,085


    Not really. Not forgetting the leadership called in the warriors of surrounding kingdoms, mercenaries and they have the largest artillery store in the Empire. For every artillery shot made by Chaos 100 were returned by the Empire. There army was made up of elites including a powerful magic user on a Dragon and numerous battle wizards. I also find it hard to believe that the city had no trained militia, in times of war most ppl would have reasonable martial skills and the armoury was full. Again, we don’t know the numbers, but the fact the artillery tore through Chaos throughout the battle certainly speaks of their superiority in terms of artillery. This is not an epic victory by any means.

    Dwarfs? Yes, only very special and unique magic users can hope to attack Athel Loren, this is beyond the Ken of the Empire or humans. Not even the Skaven would think of invading apart from one unique Blackseer.

    Defenders are described as "thousands", attackers as "tens of thousands", that's the most accurate reference we have. I've bumped up the defenders to at about 20k because it seems reasonable with how big the city is. Empire did indeed have artillery superiority, although Tamurkhan had Chaos Dwarf artillery on his side as well. Empire would most likely have artillery superiority vs elves as well, they rely on war machines a lot and have larger armies. Again, the main point is not it being impressive or not, the point is that elves won't trade with humans 10 to 1 in an actual battle. A 3 to 1 trade would likely be a great deal for the humans in terms of winning the war.

    Wood elves are more of a pain in the ass to fight with questionable benefits of doing so, that's why people rarely bother. But they're very much a minor faction, their numbers are many times lower than even HE or Dwarfs. They are also protected by the buffer state of Bretonnia, which helps them a lot, but in this scenario it's against them. Morghur is still a single beastlord who invaded Athel Loren with just his own brayherd and not really even a magic user, he's magical himself but not an actual mage.


    I like the way you mention the DE as an after thought despite them being professional pirates with numerous floating cities.

    It's stated that HE have more powerful navy than DE. Even if we're assume they're equal, I'm not sure a doubled HE navy can control basically all of the world's seas when they fail to control their own waters at times.
    Alongside these, scores of smaller bargains have struck with the ruthless mercenary companies from all across the realm, both great and small, as well as notoriously acerbic and independent battle-wizards and engineers who made the city their home, and even the half-dozen experimental Marienburg-Class Landships ordered in by the city-state of Marienburg. Greatest of all these warriors was the legendary Theodore Bruckner, the Countess's hulking Champion and Headsman was roused for war, staking heads of dissenters upon spikes in the Merchant Quarter to silence those who would cover before the storm of the Empire's greatest enemies. War has come to the Empire, and the Empire girds for it.[1j]

    I think they'll be ok, I really do. Plus this idea that a huge city on the verge of meeting their largest attacking force will not use able bodied people is rather far fetched. I just don't believe it. They are in a walled city and out number the attacking force with cannons who they immediately start to counter. Thankfully the HE, DE and WE would not march slowly into cannon fire, not really their style.

    Why do you think the HE navy would be stretched during any minor raiding parties from the barbarians? The DE possibly? They also don't use their best ships (only on special occasions) and yes, they would certainly use them against a combined human force.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,601
    edited August 27


    Not really. Not forgetting the leadership called in the warriors of surrounding kingdoms, mercenaries and they have the largest artillery store in the Empire. For every artillery shot made by Chaos 100 were returned by the Empire. There army was made up of elites including a powerful magic user on a Dragon and numerous battle wizards. I also find it hard to believe that the city had no trained militia, in times of war most ppl would have reasonable martial skills and the armoury was full. Again, we don’t know the numbers, but the fact the artillery tore through Chaos throughout the battle certainly speaks of their superiority in terms of artillery. This is not an epic victory by any means.

    Dwarfs? Yes, only very special and unique magic users can hope to attack Athel Loren, this is beyond the Ken of the Empire or humans. Not even the Skaven would think of invading apart from one unique Blackseer.

    Defenders are described as "thousands", attackers as "tens of thousands", that's the most accurate reference we have. I've bumped up the defenders to at about 20k because it seems reasonable with how big the city is. Empire did indeed have artillery superiority, although Tamurkhan had Chaos Dwarf artillery on his side as well. Empire would most likely have artillery superiority vs elves as well, they rely on war machines a lot and have larger armies. Again, the main point is not it being impressive or not, the point is that elves won't trade with humans 10 to 1 in an actual battle. A 3 to 1 trade would likely be a great deal for the humans in terms of winning the war.

    Wood elves are more of a pain in the ass to fight with questionable benefits of doing so, that's why people rarely bother. But they're very much a minor faction, their numbers are many times lower than even HE or Dwarfs. They are also protected by the buffer state of Bretonnia, which helps them a lot, but in this scenario it's against them. Morghur is still a single beastlord who invaded Athel Loren with just his own brayherd and not really even a magic user, he's magical himself but not an actual mage.


    I like the way you mention the DE as an after thought despite them being professional pirates with numerous floating cities.

    It's stated that HE have more powerful navy than DE. Even if we're assume they're equal, I'm not sure a doubled HE navy can control basically all of the world's seas when they fail to control their own waters at times.
    Alongside these, scores of smaller bargains have struck with the ruthless mercenary companies from all across the realm, both great and small, as well as notoriously acerbic and independent battle-wizards and engineers who made the city their home, and even the half-dozen experimental Marienburg-Class Landships ordered in by the city-state of Marienburg. Greatest of all these warriors was the legendary Theodore Bruckner, the Countess's hulking Champion and Headsman was roused for war, staking heads of dissenters upon spikes in the Merchant Quarter to silence those who would cover before the storm of the Empire's greatest enemies. War has come to the Empire, and the Empire girds for it.[1j]

    I think they'll be ok, I really do. Plus this idea that a huge city on the verge of meeting their largest attacking force will not use able bodied people is rather far fetched. I just don't believe it. They are in a walled city and out number the attacking force with cannons who they immediately start to counter. Thankfully the HE, DE and WE would not march slowly into cannon fire, not really their style.

    Why do you think the HE navy would be stretched during any minor raiding parties from the barbarians? The DE possibly? They also don't use their best ships (only on special occasions) and yes, they would certainly use them against a combined human force.
    Able bodied militia for humans is less than half the population, because women don't fight and there are also elderly and children. So even if militia was roused (even though there was no mention of it I think) it wouldn't be anywhere close to the actual city size. How else would the elves siege a city? Wood elves probably just don't, they don't even have suitable troops and equipment. Otherwise they'll have to face the same thing, it's not like they can outrun bullets. I'm yet to see any actual argument as to why elves would be able to outtrade the humans in a land battle by a huge margin.

    What else would HE navy do? It's not like it has higher priority tasks than defending Ulthuan. Or is it just resting in docks while Ulthuan is getting raided? We could say that the human armies just didn't feel like repelling DE raids and went to a pub when they raided them then.

  • Kouran_DarkhandKouran_Darkhand Registered Users Posts: 698



    DE fight of chaos invasion regulary

    You mean a bunch of half-naked marauders forces the Druchii to waste a dozen elite armies standing guard at all time. That's actually pretty darn pitiful.
    Valkia has invaded Naggaroth in the past, for example. N’kari too. Not the best examples of weak Chaos marauders.

    Oh, I almost forgot you’re here only for the baiting!
    You are the true king of the elves, Malekith. You are the son of Aenarion, champion of the Daemon War, heir to the Phoenix Crown. It is your right by deed, merit and birth and I would give my life to see that ancient wrong reversed and your rightful position restored. As an elf I can think of no higher calling.



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