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Same nationality Marines fighting each other?

2

Comments

  • ImperaturImperatur Member Posts: 99Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I don't think it's so akward that a bunch of American, Brittish or French fight their contrymen; they are mercinaries, the fight, they get paid. Don't fight, don't get any payment. Beside that, it's a game!


    But the problem is that they aren't mercenaries and the game doesn't treat them as such. They are units of their national government's armed forces that are loaned to a faction as a reward for services rendered. They aren't just roaming the Japanese countryside selling themselves out to the highest bidder. True it is a game but since it is depicting a historical period some gamers desire more historical detail than others. Those who don't care either way shouldn't be bothered by the addition of some more realism so long as it doesn't affect gameplay in a detrimental way.
  • rayrox222rayrox222 Senior Member Posts: 335Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    No offense to the marines or anything, but thanks to human nature, no one is perfectly incorruptible. It's possible for anyone in the military to be tempted to defect whether by money, promises of power, or for some complicated issue wherein they lose sight of the original cause they were fighting for. Famously enough, in American history in the Revolutionary War there was Benedict Arnold, who before being a traitor was revered for his valor and ability to command by even George Washington, yet a bunch of lesser men at the time were granted promotions and whatnot ahead of Arnold by the Continental Congress, he sold out to the British, losing sight of what he originally fought for, becoming unenamored with the lack of respect for his efforts. There's no reason such a thing could not happen to a marine. Is it highly unlikely because of their intense training perhaps proving at the very least love of country? While a reasonable argument in favor of the long proven motto in the corps: semper fidelis, let's be honest about one thing please. No one is perfectly incorruptible.
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    rayrox222 wrote: »
    No offense to the marines or anything, but thanks to human nature, no one is perfectly incorruptible. It's possible for anyone in the military to be tempted to defect whether by money, promises of power, or for some complicated issue wherein they lose sight of the original cause they were fighting for. Famously enough, in American history in the Revolutionary War there was Benedict Arnold, who before being a traitor was revered for his valor and ability to command by even George Washington, yet a bunch of lesser men at the time were granted promotions and whatnot ahead of Arnold by the Continental Congress, he sold out to the British, losing sight of what he originally fought for, becoming unenamored with the lack of respect for his efforts. There's no reason such a thing could not happen to a marine. Is it highly unlikely because of their intense training perhaps proving at the very least love of country? While a reasonable argument in favor of the long proven motto in the corps: semper fidelis, let's be honest about one thing please. No one is perfectly incorruptible.

    Yup, I agree with you. Ezo republic was co-founded by a French officer who deffected the army when his commanders asked him to stop because the french army was officialy training the imperial army. So there were french in both sides of the conflict. (even if I don't think the french army fought alongside the imperial army, just rained them.)
  • ImperaturImperatur Member Posts: 99Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    rayrox222 wrote: »
    No offense to the marines or anything, but thanks to human nature, no one is perfectly incorruptible. It's possible for anyone in the military to be tempted to defect whether by money, promises of power, or for some complicated issue wherein they lose sight of the original cause they were fighting for. Famously enough, in American history in the Revolutionary War there was Benedict Arnold, who before being a traitor was revered for his valor and ability to command by even George Washington, yet a bunch of lesser men at the time were granted promotions and whatnot ahead of Arnold by the Continental Congress, he sold out to the British, losing sight of what he originally fought for, becoming unenamored with the lack of respect for his efforts. There's no reason such a thing could not happen to a marine. Is it highly unlikely because of their intense training perhaps proving at the very least love of country? While a reasonable argument in favor of the long proven motto in the corps: semper fidelis, let's be honest about one thing please. No one is perfectly incorruptible.


    I agree with your comments completely but they are irrelevant to this issue.
  • alex0809alex0809 Junior Member Posts: 16Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    In this preview you can see that you can decide if you want to build a French/American/British trade post: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7gm4diPOL8#t=8m23s
    I doubt they really prevented same nationality fights from happening. I am OK with it, but still I'd be pleasantly surprised if it wasn't possible! I guess it's all a bit abstracted anyway, I mean you can DECIDE which nation should help you and they just send as many troops, heavy ships etc as you can pay for.
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I have a feeling It's going to be highly unlikely the situation would come into play anyway... unless you and a friend planned it!
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • A_Parked_CarA_Parked_Car Member Posts: 85Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Seeing two sets of the same nationality marines fighting each other will certainly throw me straight out of any sense of immersion. I really hope that CA thought of this, but I have a feeling they didn't.
    "The historian without his facts is rootless and futile; the facts without their historian are dead and meaningless." - E. H. Carr

    "I'm not here to tell you all of the answers. Rather, I'm here to merely get you acquainted with the questions." (Speaking of the study of history.) - Dr. David C. Wright
  • Marshall DavoutMarshall Davout Banned Posts: 59Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    I'm not sure that will happen really. Other clans could use different regiments.
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    This issue is really causing a stir in the community... if CA didn't implement any such feature as mentioned above then see this... well, they aren't going to be very happy with themselves.
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    According to reviews, you won't be able to recruit these units early in the game, they will require techs and buildings, maybe trading nodes (not sure about that last one) and they will most likely be limitated and expensive, so I doubt every clan will be able to recruit them and field full stack of them. If they remain somewhat rare (it's elite unit after all) and if the CAI is like in S2 and tend to recruit more 'basics' units, I doubt those kind of encounters will happen often.
    Have you ever seen more than one or two hero unit per campaign ? I never did. So I guess it will be more or less the same here, at least I hope so.
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I guess we'll find out in a versus campaign, but I'm hoping CA having mucked up on this one.
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • NewbieOneKenobiNewbieOneKenobi Senior Member Posts: 142Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Imperatur wrote: »
    I don't understand why people can't grasp this distinction. The Marines in the game are supplied by the national government to factions that will advance their national agenda. The Marines are not a bunch a free agent cowboys looking for trouble and profit in Japan. Therefore it would be a rediculous situation to have any of the Marines of the same nationality fighting each other.

    Agree.
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Agree.

    But we must remember that it is a game... we are not arguing what would have happened in real-life, merely how this has been presented in FotS.
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • alex0809alex0809 Junior Member Posts: 16Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Though thinking about it I don't even see how it could be solved. Your expensive elite Marines just "disappearing" suddenly? Not cool!
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    They just refuse to fight... remember, the enemy loses their marines too. (And only for that battle.)
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • ImperaturImperatur Member Posts: 99Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Yeah they should just not be able to be deployed against other Marines.
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Something like only the defender have the marines unit and wonce it's detroyed or if they are running away, the unit of the attacker arrive as reinforcement. problem solved.
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    yoshisuke wrote: »
    Something like only the defender have the marines unit and wonce it's detroyed or if they are running away, the unit of the attacker arrive as reinforcement. problem solved.

    Yeah, this looks doable.
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • NoodleMeisterNoodleMeister Senior Member Posts: 242Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    yoshisuke wrote: »
    Something like only the defender have the marines unit and wonce it's detroyed or if they are running away, the unit of the attacker arrive as reinforcement. problem solved.

    "Warriors of our foreign allies! Your brothers serving our enemy are fleeing the battlefield in shame, surely you will no longer refuse to fight this battle?"

    I don't know, wouldn't that be kind of wierd, the marines on your side are okay with fighting as long as you slaughter their fellow marines on the opposite side?
    "The will to conquer all else outside your own self. That is, ambition in its purest form."
    __________________
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    yoshisuke wrote: »
    It's the karma, sir !

    Hmm, I'm not sure I can hear a marine saying that (I've tried French, English and American!)
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Morgothic wrote: »
    Hmm, I'm not sure I can hear a marine saying that (I've tried French, English and American!)

    ****, you're right, hippies didn't bring this idea to the western country at this time.
    But, if we consider the american to be Tom Cruise who does everything better and faster than any of those chinese monkeys, maybe it will work. (Japan is a part of China, right ?)

    Edit : they might say something like "god moves in mysterious ways."
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    yoshisuke wrote: »
    ****, you're right, hippies didn't bring this idea to the western country at this time.
    But, if we consider the american to be Tom Cruise who does everything better and faster than any of those chinese monkeys, maybe it will work. (Japan is a part of China, right ?)

    Edit : they might say something like "god moves in mysterious ways."

    This. All of it is true, I think you've just summed up the ignorance of America. (That last quote I can hear in a deep American tone).
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    By the way, it's strange no one complained about French and English killing each others in Japan. They were at peace at this time. And none of the two took part in the American civil war, it would be arkward for them to fight Yankies.

    Edit: I forgot it was just a game !
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    yoshisuke wrote: »
    By the way, it's strange no one complained about French and English killing each others in Japan. They were at peace at this time. And none of the two took part in the American civil war, it would be arkward for them to fight blue coats.

    Edit: I forgot it was just a game !

    I think it would be pretty awkward for any of the countries to fight... the three superpowers at that point, it may have escalated into an early, and twisted, First World War. (I am seeing less of a game, more of an unrealistic 'What if?' scenario).
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Exactly ! And that's the huge amount of fun in this game. I love to start a campaign and say "ok, this clan lost, lets change history !".
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    yoshisuke wrote: »
    Exactly ! And that's the huge amount of fun in this game. I love to start a campaign and say "ok, this clan lost, lets change history !".

    And because of the cinematic battles and unexpected events, you often really do have a story to tell, sometimes more interesting than what really happened!
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • yoshisukeyoshisuke Senior Member Posts: 277Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Yes, and whatever you do, there's no way to do the exact same campaign ever again.
    How many games provide that to the player, really ?
  • MorgothicMorgothic Senior Member Posts: 2,166Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    yoshisuke wrote: »
    Yes, and whatever you do, there's no way to do the exact same campaign ever again.
    How many games provide that to the player, really ?

    The closest you could come would be a very loose RPG, but even then... I guess Paradox games titles may do something similar (Crusader Kings II, Sengoku etc.) but without the battles and the cinematic feel, It's more of a political simulator (a good one, but it is just much less dynamic in its style.)
    Fast like the wind,
    Silent like a forest,
    Intrusive like the fire,
    Immobile like a mountain,
    Under heaven and earth, I alone am feared.
    -Takeda Shingen
    My Movie and Music review blog
  • ImperaturImperatur Member Posts: 99Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Well I much prefer that there are plausible possibilities and outcomes. It is enough of a stretch that we have units of British, French, and American Marines taking any part in this civil war but to have them fighting each other is a bridge too far for me.
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