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Humans vs Elves: Which race would win in an all out war?

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  • SaintCornSaintCorn Registered Users Posts: 1,927

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    If you don't know what you're talking about, then you really shouldn't try to argue about it.
    Just some friendly advice.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    You're the one constantly asking for references for stuff obvious to everyone who understands WHFB like Chaos Warriors having the most elite soldiers.

    Grail knights fight on foot on multiple occasions so I don't see why they wouldn't go on foot if the situation requires it, they're not glued to the horse. On TT spears are not anti cav. Historically, spears are a soft counter to heavy cav at most.

    Sigh indeed.
    They go into battle on a horse, look at images of a Grail Knight and consider how many you see of them on horse than on foot. You show me some examples of Chaos warriors going up against the Phoenix Guard or any other similar troop type.

    So it’s a coincidence that 2 other heavy cavalry unit is used as a comparison. In battle, they a cavalry unit unless a very specific situation occurs. I also notice you ignore again the idea that Grail Knights are seen as ****among****, your mistake is clearly pointed out yet you continue parroting the same misguided point.
    SaintCorn said:

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    If you don't know what you're talking about, then you really shouldn't try to argue about it.
    Just some friendly advice.
    You stick to cheerleading.. just some friendly advice.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151
    Grail Knights, also known as Knights of the White Grail and Grail Paladins, are among the most devastating cavalry in the Old World,

    🤦🏻
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    Grail Knights, also known as Knights of the White Grail and Grail Paladins, are among the most devastating cavalry in the Old World,

    🤦🏻

    For someone who always brings up numbers he convinietly skips that very few knights who ever become Grail Knights

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • SaintCornSaintCorn Registered Users Posts: 1,927

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    You're the one constantly asking for references for stuff obvious to everyone who understands WHFB like Chaos Warriors having the most elite soldiers.

    Grail knights fight on foot on multiple occasions so I don't see why they wouldn't go on foot if the situation requires it, they're not glued to the horse. On TT spears are not anti cav. Historically, spears are a soft counter to heavy cav at most.

    Sigh indeed.
    They go into battle on a horse, look at images of a Grail Knight and consider how many you see of them on horse than on foot. You show me some examples of Chaos warriors going up against the Phoenix Guard or any other similar troop type.

    So it’s a coincidence that 2 other heavy cavalry unit is used as a comparison. In battle, they a cavalry unit unless a very specific situation occurs. I also notice you ignore again the idea that Grail Knights are seen as ****among****, your mistake is clearly pointed out yet you continue parroting the same misguided point.
    SaintCorn said:

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    If you don't know what you're talking about, then you really shouldn't try to argue about it.
    Just some friendly advice.
    You stick to cheerleading.. just some friendly advice.
    Cheerleading?
    Well, I must admit I don't quite look so well in a skirt, so I am going to have to pass on that.

    Now, trying to insult people online is a bit much, and something I am sadly guilty of as well.
    Now, you don't seem to have much of an argument at the moment or at least one that is tangentially related.
    If you want to keep a conversation going in good faith, then please try to refrain from insulting anyone.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151

    Grail Knights, also known as Knights of the White Grail and Grail Paladins, are among the most devastating cavalry in the Old World,

    🤦🏻

    For someone who always brings up numbers he convinietly skips that very few knights who ever become Grail Knights
    I think we can agree that a Knight who goes through all the stages of a Bretonnian warrior, reaches the top and then does something amazing enough to receive the blessing of the lady is quite rare.. just like every other elite in the game.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,216
    Bretonnian Grail Knights are superhumans. They are stronger, live longer, and are more resilient. Only Blood Dragons and Black Grail Knights can really rival them, and the vanilla Grail Knights usually have weapons and abilities meant to counteract corruption and dark magic anyway.

    The Elves don't really have a comparison, other than maybe the Wild Riders.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151
    SaintCorn said:

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    You're the one constantly asking for references for stuff obvious to everyone who understands WHFB like Chaos Warriors having the most elite soldiers.

    Grail knights fight on foot on multiple occasions so I don't see why they wouldn't go on foot if the situation requires it, they're not glued to the horse. On TT spears are not anti cav. Historically, spears are a soft counter to heavy cav at most.

    Sigh indeed.
    They go into battle on a horse, look at images of a Grail Knight and consider how many you see of them on horse than on foot. You show me some examples of Chaos warriors going up against the Phoenix Guard or any other similar troop type.

    So it’s a coincidence that 2 other heavy cavalry unit is used as a comparison. In battle, they a cavalry unit unless a very specific situation occurs. I also notice you ignore again the idea that Grail Knights are seen as ****among****, your mistake is clearly pointed out yet you continue parroting the same misguided point.
    SaintCorn said:

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    If you don't know what you're talking about, then you really shouldn't try to argue about it.
    Just some friendly advice.
    You stick to cheerleading.. just some friendly advice.
    Cheerleading?
    Well, I must admit I don't quite look so well in a skirt, so I am going to have to pass on that.

    Now, trying to insult people online is a bit much, and something I am sadly guilty of as well.
    Now, you don't seem to have much of an argument at the moment or at least one that is tangentially related.
    If you want to keep a conversation going in good faith, then please try to refrain from insulting anyone.

    Well, if it isn’t someone else saying something patronising, getting a similar reply and going straight into victim mode.

    Run a long.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    You're the one constantly asking for references for stuff obvious to everyone who understands WHFB like Chaos Warriors having the most elite soldiers.

    Grail knights fight on foot on multiple occasions so I don't see why they wouldn't go on foot if the situation requires it, they're not glued to the horse. On TT spears are not anti cav. Historically, spears are a soft counter to heavy cav at most.

    Sigh indeed.
    They go into battle on a horse, look at images of a Grail Knight and consider how many you see of them on horse than on foot. You show me some examples of Chaos warriors going up against the Phoenix Guard or any other similar troop type.

    So it’s a coincidence that 2 other heavy cavalry unit is used as a comparison. In battle, they a cavalry unit unless a very specific situation occurs. I also notice you ignore again the idea that Grail Knights are seen as ****among****, your mistake is clearly pointed out yet you continue parroting the same misguided point.
    SaintCorn said:

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    If you don't know what you're talking about, then you really shouldn't try to argue about it.
    Just some friendly advice.
    You stick to cheerleading.. just some friendly advice.
    There's no mistake, because they are the top 3 human sized warriors in the setting, by feats, TT stats, you name it. They slay dragons and vampire lords. Can any elf apart from their best heroes boast that? No.

    Here's a picture of a random grail knight causally duelling a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh:


    On foot, I might add. I don't see a horse glued to him. Are we gonna argue that they can't go on foot because there are less pictures of them on foot? Lol.

    Are they rare? Yes. Not any more rare than the elf elites though, and stronger than them.

    Chaos warriors being the most elite melee force is a commonly accepted fact. Their core troops, Chaos Warriors, who are not even elite by their standards, can match elites of other races and are already lauded as "some of the best warriors ever". Of course GW will never provide exact numbers in a battle so you can try to lorewise argue that goblins are better than Chaos Warriors. However, some of their ET elites look like this on TT (Chosen also look better than pretty much anyone on TT before ET but I'm explicitly using an extreme example):



    How do the best elf units look? Hint: several times weaker.

    It takes an extreme level of elf fanboyism to say that elves can match chaos warriors in melee. But that's beside the topic anyway.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,216

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    You're the one constantly asking for references for stuff obvious to everyone who understands WHFB like Chaos Warriors having the most elite soldiers.

    Grail knights fight on foot on multiple occasions so I don't see why they wouldn't go on foot if the situation requires it, they're not glued to the horse. On TT spears are not anti cav. Historically, spears are a soft counter to heavy cav at most.

    Sigh indeed.
    They go into battle on a horse, look at images of a Grail Knight and consider how many you see of them on horse than on foot. You show me some examples of Chaos warriors going up against the Phoenix Guard or any other similar troop type.

    So it’s a coincidence that 2 other heavy cavalry unit is used as a comparison. In battle, they a cavalry unit unless a very specific situation occurs. I also notice you ignore again the idea that Grail Knights are seen as ****among****, your mistake is clearly pointed out yet you continue parroting the same misguided point.
    SaintCorn said:

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    If you don't know what you're talking about, then you really shouldn't try to argue about it.
    Just some friendly advice.
    You stick to cheerleading.. just some friendly advice.
    There's no mistake, because they are the top 3 human sized warriors in the setting, by feats, TT stats, you name it. They slay dragons and vampire lords. Can any elf apart from their best heroes boast that? No.

    Here's a picture of a random grail knight causally duelling Daemon Prince of Slaanesh:


    On foot, I might add. I don't see a horse glued to him. Are we gonna argue that they can't go on foot because there are less pictures of them on foot? Lol.

    Are they rare? Yes. Not any more rare than the elf elites though, and stronger than them.

    Chaos warriors being the most elite melee force is a commonly accepted fact. Their core troops, Chaos Warriors, who are not even elite by their standards, can match elites of other races and are already lauded as "some of the best warriors ever". Of course GW will never provide exact numbers in a battle so you can try to lorewise argue that goblins are better than Chaos Warriors. However, some of their ET elites look like this on TT (Chosen also look better than pretty much anyone on TT before ET but I'm explicitly using an extreme example):



    How do the best elf units look? Hint: several times weaker.

    It takes an extreme level of elf fanboyism to say that elves can match chaos warriors in melee. But that's beside the topic anyway.
    It's also worth pointing out that any nobleman of rank in Bretonnia is either a Grail Knight or working to become one; even Knight Errants are dangerous despite not having the Grail's powers. Every Duke, every Lord, every Paladin, plus the guardians of the most important Grail Cathedrals are all Grail Knights. They're a lot more common than people seem to think.

    On the topic of Elves matching Chaos Warriors, I can see that with the Phoenix Guard and maybe the Swordmasters of Hoeth, but definitely not the rank and file. Elven elites are elite mostly due to their superior training, not due to anything supernatural or magical. The Phoenix Guard, Wild Riders, and Sisters of Thorn are the only explicitly empowered Elves. All the other elite units in any Elven army are just exceptionally trained mortal Elves, nothing more.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    You're the one constantly asking for references for stuff obvious to everyone who understands WHFB like Chaos Warriors having the most elite soldiers.

    Grail knights fight on foot on multiple occasions so I don't see why they wouldn't go on foot if the situation requires it, they're not glued to the horse. On TT spears are not anti cav. Historically, spears are a soft counter to heavy cav at most.

    Sigh indeed.
    They go into battle on a horse, look at images of a Grail Knight and consider how many you see of them on horse than on foot. You show me some examples of Chaos warriors going up against the Phoenix Guard or any other similar troop type.

    So it’s a coincidence that 2 other heavy cavalry unit is used as a comparison. In battle, they a cavalry unit unless a very specific situation occurs. I also notice you ignore again the idea that Grail Knights are seen as ****among****, your mistake is clearly pointed out yet you continue parroting the same misguided point.
    SaintCorn said:

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    If you don't know what you're talking about, then you really shouldn't try to argue about it.
    Just some friendly advice.
    You stick to cheerleading.. just some friendly advice.
    There's no mistake, because they are the top 3 human sized warriors in the setting, by feats, TT stats, you name it. They slay dragons and vampire lords. Can any elf apart from their best heroes boast that? No.

    Here's a picture of a random grail knight causally duelling Daemon Prince of Slaanesh:


    On foot, I might add. I don't see a horse glued to him. Are we gonna argue that they can't go on foot because there are less pictures of them on foot? Lol.

    Are they rare? Yes. Not any more rare than the elf elites though, and stronger than them.

    Chaos warriors being the most elite melee force is a commonly accepted fact. Their core troops, Chaos Warriors, who are not even elite by their standards, can match elites of other races and are already lauded as "some of the best warriors ever". Of course GW will never provide exact numbers in a battle so you can try to lorewise argue that goblins are better than Chaos Warriors. However, some of their ET elites look like this on TT (Chosen also look better than pretty much anyone on TT before ET but I'm explicitly using an extreme example):



    How do the best elf units look? Hint: several times weaker.

    It takes an extreme level of elf fanboyism to say that elves can match chaos warriors in melee. But that's beside the topic anyway.
    It's also worth pointing out that any nobleman of rank in Bretonnia is either a Grail Knight or working to become one; even Knight Errants are dangerous despite not having the Grail's powers. Every Duke, every Lord, every Paladin, plus the guardians of the most important Grail Cathedrals are all Grail Knights. They're a lot more common than people seem to think.

    On the topic of Elves matching Chaos Warriors, I can see that with the Phoenix Guard and maybe the Swordmasters of Hoeth, but definitely not the rank and file. Elven elites are elite mostly due to their superior training, not due to anything supernatural or magical. The Phoenix Guard, Wild Riders, and Sisters of Thorn are the only explicitly empowered Elves. All the other elite units in any Elven army are just exceptionally trained mortal Elves, nothing more.
    Yeah I agree, a general Chaos Warrior isn't something that can just plow through anything and as they experts say the Chaos armies can be out manoeuvred by a more balanced foe.

    It also seems to look like the Empire is pretty low in quality on the TT.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    With @HisShadowBG claiming that Morathi was equivalent to a Slann because she can hire an assassin to kill them.


    I have brought plenty of evidence that she is on par with them that quouted only shows the omnipotent slann can be killed by single generic elf assasin .Fanboying is something you should look too witth your cliams like generic slann is more powerful than a some of the most powerful named mages of the whfb

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,216


    With @HisShadowBG claiming that Morathi was equivalent to a Slann because she can hire an assassin to kill them.


    I have brought plenty of evidence that she is on par with them that quouted only shows the omnipotent slann can be killed by single generic elf assasin .Fanboying is something you should look too witth your cliams like generic slann is more powerful than a some of the most powerful named mages of the whfb
    No, she's not. Just because Slaan are easy to stab doesn't make them any less powerful as mages. Considering how little Morathi wears, vulnerability isn't really a good metric to go by.

    When it comes to magic and magical power and intellect, Slaan are the best. They are the closest to the original Old Ones and retain the majority of their power and knowledge. Morathi is a powerful sorceress, but a great deal of that is due to the demonic pacts and deals she's made with the Cytharai. How much of her ability is innate to her and not to her connections is hard to tell apart, but she's nowhere near as smart or powerful as a Slaan. No living Elf ever was or ever will be.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
  • SaintCornSaintCorn Registered Users Posts: 1,927


    With @HisShadowBG claiming that Morathi was equivalent to a Slann because she can hire an assassin to kill them.


    I have brought plenty of evidence that she is on par with them that quouted only shows the omnipotent slann can be killed by single generic elf assasin .Fanboying is something you should look too witth your cliams like generic slann is more powerful than a some of the most powerful named mages of the whfb
    Claiming that someone is more magically powerful than a slann because that person can hire an assassin to kill a sleeping slann isn't an example that proves your point.

    So, your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. So, your conclusion is wrong.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    Claiming that someone is more magically powerful than a slann because that person can hire an assassin to kill a sleeping slann isn't an example that proves your point.

    So, your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. So, your conclusion is wrong.
    This is not my evidence
    She is said to cast most powerful magics possible how more straightforward can it get anyways this not the topic why are you constantly bringing it up

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Just physically can't accept that you're wrong? Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier list for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,065
    edited August 29

    Claiming that someone is more magically powerful than a slann because that person can hire an assassin to kill a sleeping slann isn't an example that proves your point.

    So, your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. So, your conclusion is wrong.
    This is not my evidence
    She is said to cast most powerful magics possible how more straightforward can it get anyways this not the topic why are you constantly bringing it up

    _______________________________________________________

    She objectively doesn't.

    At most you could consider her top tier, but she's far from the strongest. Even being in the top tier is questionable when Slann are objectively vastly more powerful.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus

  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,216

    Claiming that someone is more magically powerful than a slann because that person can hire an assassin to kill a sleeping slann isn't an example that proves your point.

    So, your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. So, your conclusion is wrong.
    This is not my evidence
    She is said to cast most powerful magics possible how more straightforward can it get anyways this not the topic why are you constantly bringing it up

    Caledor Dragontamer is the most powerful Elven mage who ever lived. Per the lore, he's close to younger generation Slann. Morathi meanwhile is just behind Caledor, and ergo, not as powerful as a Slann. It doesn't matter if her magic is more destructive. Her own power, ability, and intellect are still inferior. She just isn't a living magic supercomputer like the Slann.

    Now, maybe if Morathi spent most of her time studying and meditating on hyper-spatial fate magic, rather than trying to murder/marry/sleep with Malekith or one up Hellebron, she'd be closer up there, but she's always been a creature of politics. The moment a Slann wakes up enough to formulate a clear thought, Morathi's dead.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,065
    SaintCorn said:


    With @HisShadowBG claiming that Morathi was equivalent to a Slann because she can hire an assassin to kill them.


    I have brought plenty of evidence that she is on par with them that quouted only shows the omnipotent slann can be killed by single generic elf assasin .Fanboying is something you should look too witth your cliams like generic slann is more powerful than a some of the most powerful named mages of the whfb
    Claiming that someone is more magically powerful than a slann because that person can hire an assassin to kill a sleeping slann isn't an example that proves your point.

    So, your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. So, your conclusion is wrong.
    This is the thing about most of the DE lore I've seen; they win by trickery and backhanded tactics. Getting another army to attack their enemy so they can sneak in and win. It's stuff that's not really viable in all out war. Effectively the DE are portrayed as relatively weak opportunists.

    As to Morathi herself, her claim to fame with regards to magic is the ability to lose. That's not a particularly impressive ability.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,216

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,065
    Good points again MD :smiley:

    That's the thing about TT stats. They're the best representation we have. The lore will always say that whatever it's talking about is awesome. Army books are intended as propaganda. Very rarely do they ever portray their chosen race as weak. Hence why we have stats which are objective representations of what's spoken of.

    If the lore says a wizard is super strong but they're only level 2 of a possible 4 then we know it's just so much gas. And that can be applied both ways across the board.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    edited August 29

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,937
    edited August 29

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm
    You'd think the guy who created and maintains that giant magic vacuum that keeps all the daemonic riff-raff out of the world would be darn powerful to keep doing this for millenia.

    What has Morathi accomplished that is of similar magnitude?
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,216

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm
    1. Slann were made to be the most powerful and intelligent beings in the world; they are the closest to living Old Ones. Elves in comparison are magically gifted, but it's not the purpose for their existence.
    2. She lost to him every time they met, and his exploits in magic are more difficult and world-reaching.
    3. This thread stopped being relevant pages ago.
This discussion has been closed.