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Humans vs Elves: Which race would win in an all out war?

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  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    Well, WHFB has lord, hero, core, special and rare as unit tiers, but you'd need to actually have read the armybooks to know what goes where.

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm
    You'd think the guy who created and maintains that giant magic vacuum that keeps all the daemonic riff-raff out of the world would be darn powerful to keep doing this for millenia.

    What has Morathi accomplished that is of similar magnitude?
    She partook in he Sundering which caused:
    As the wave of energy reached Nagarythe, the island buckled under the titanic stress. Across Ulthuan, earthquakes cast down cities and toppled mountains. A tidal wave a thousand feet high came crashing down on northern Ulthuan, submerging the provinces of Nagarythe and Tiranoc and killing thousands of Elves. The shock was felt as far away as the Worlds Edge Mountains and is recorded in the chronicles of the Dwarf Kings.[1a]


    2. She lost to him every time they met, and his exploits in magic are more difficult and world-reaching.

    I remember one interaction from the books and she 'lost' cause he used the power of the vortex and even with it he didn't manage to destroy her. In ET both suffered a similar fate

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,897
    edited August 29

    Well, WHFB has lord, hero, core, special and rare as unit tiers, but you'd need to actually have read the armybooks to know what goes where.

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm
    You'd think the guy who created and maintains that giant magic vacuum that keeps all the daemonic riff-raff out of the world would be darn powerful to keep doing this for millenia.

    What has Morathi accomplished that is of similar magnitude?
    She partook in he Sundering which caused:
    As the wave of energy reached Nagarythe, the island buckled under the titanic stress. Across Ulthuan, earthquakes cast down cities and toppled mountains. A tidal wave a thousand feet high came crashing down on northern Ulthuan, submerging the provinces of Nagarythe and Tiranoc and killing thousands of Elves. The shock was felt as far away as the Worlds Edge Mountains and is recorded in the chronicles of the Dwarf Kings.[1a]


    2. She lost to him every time they met, and his exploits in magic are more difficult and world-reaching.

    I remember one interaction from the books and she 'lost' cause he used the power of the vortex and even with it he didn't manage to destroy her. In ET both suffered a similar fate
    Nice try, but the Sundering was the result of Caledor repulsing Malekith's spiteful attempt to unmake the Vortex. Even this friggin' game lays the story down.

    So no, that's not a demonstration of Morathi's prowess at all.

    Comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    edited August 29

    Well, WHFB has lord, hero, core, special and rare as unit tiers, but you'd need to actually have read the armybooks to know what goes where.

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm
    You'd think the guy who created and maintains that giant magic vacuum that keeps all the daemonic riff-raff out of the world would be darn powerful to keep doing this for millenia.

    What has Morathi accomplished that is of similar magnitude?
    She partook in he Sundering which caused:
    As the wave of energy reached Nagarythe, the island buckled under the titanic stress. Across Ulthuan, earthquakes cast down cities and toppled mountains. A tidal wave a thousand feet high came crashing down on northern Ulthuan, submerging the provinces of Nagarythe and Tiranoc and killing thousands of Elves. The shock was felt as far away as the Worlds Edge Mountains and is recorded in the chronicles of the Dwarf Kings.[1a]


    2. She lost to him every time they met, and his exploits in magic are more difficult and world-reaching.

    I remember one interaction from the books and she 'lost' cause he used the power of the vortex and even with it he didn't manage to destroy her. In ET both suffered a similar fate
    Nice try, but the Sundering was the result of Caledor repulsing Malekith's spiteful attempt to unmake the Vortex. Even this friggin' game lays the story down.

    So no, that's not a demonstration of Morathi's prowess at all.

    Comment removed.
    It is a rasult of the clash of magic between the DE/Morahti/Malekith and HE/Caledor and his mages
    Post edited by dge1 on

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205

    Well, WHFB has lord, hero, core, special and rare as unit tiers, but you'd need to actually have read the armybooks to know what goes where.

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm
    You'd think the guy who created and maintains that giant magic vacuum that keeps all the daemonic riff-raff out of the world would be darn powerful to keep doing this for millenia.

    What has Morathi accomplished that is of similar magnitude?
    She partook in he Sundering which caused:
    As the wave of energy reached Nagarythe, the island buckled under the titanic stress. Across Ulthuan, earthquakes cast down cities and toppled mountains. A tidal wave a thousand feet high came crashing down on northern Ulthuan, submerging the provinces of Nagarythe and Tiranoc and killing thousands of Elves. The shock was felt as far away as the Worlds Edge Mountains and is recorded in the chronicles of the Dwarf Kings.[1a]


    2. She lost to him every time they met, and his exploits in magic are more difficult and world-reaching.

    I remember one interaction from the books and she 'lost' cause he used the power of the vortex and even with it he didn't manage to destroy her. In ET both suffered a similar fate
    And the Vortex was Caledor's idea and creation; he still serves as the living lynchpin for the entire spell powered by his own magic. Defeating Morathi while keeping the Vortex together says plenty on his ability, on top of forging the Great Weapons of the Princes and this little think called dragon riding.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,112

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    Well, WHFB has lord, hero, core, special and rare as unit tiers, but you'd need to actually have read the armybooks to know what goes where.

    Again baseless claims which are not on topic when was Caledor ever compared to a slann

    It doesn't matter. Caledor is/was the most powerful Elven mage. Slann are more powerful than Elven mages. Ergo, Morathi isn't equal to a Slann because she's not equal to Caledor.

    Like I know that Warhammer isn't the most logically consistent setting, but the power levels of it's players are pretty obvious.
    1.How did you figure that Caledor is/or not comparable to Slann
    2. How did you figure Morathi is not comparable to Caledor
    3. this not on topic if wish to discuss further you can pm
    You'd think the guy who created and maintains that giant magic vacuum that keeps all the daemonic riff-raff out of the world would be darn powerful to keep doing this for millenia.

    What has Morathi accomplished that is of similar magnitude?
    She partook in he Sundering which caused:
    As the wave of energy reached Nagarythe, the island buckled under the titanic stress. Across Ulthuan, earthquakes cast down cities and toppled mountains. A tidal wave a thousand feet high came crashing down on northern Ulthuan, submerging the provinces of Nagarythe and Tiranoc and killing thousands of Elves. The shock was felt as far away as the Worlds Edge Mountains and is recorded in the chronicles of the Dwarf Kings.[1a]


    2. She lost to him every time they met, and his exploits in magic are more difficult and world-reaching.

    I remember one interaction from the books and she 'lost' cause he used the power of the vortex and even with it he didn't manage to destroy her. In ET both suffered a similar fate
    And the Vortex was Caledor's idea and creation; he still serves as the living lynchpin for the entire spell powered by his own magic. Defeating Morathi while keeping the Vortex together says plenty on his ability, on top of forging the Great Weapons of the Princes and this little think called dragon riding.
    He only kept it together cause there was a convinient replacment mage for the one Morathi slew. Fact is his creation or not it gives him a significant boost of power. The other stuff is not relevent to his magical ability. We will not agree on this can we move back to humans vs elves?

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if we assume 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.

    If you want to argue agains the power of numbers, Skaven overrun half the world in ET and genocide LM, Dwarfs and several human states. Skaven don't match up very well against most other races in terms of troop quality.
  • Fingolfin_the-GoldenFingolfin_the-Golden Registered Users Posts: 2,058
    Elves win due to me saying so.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,112

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos, Skaven.

    It's also a mathematical fact that GK, BK, and CK (or Chosen) are the highest stat human sized units on TT. T5 in your terms, if you will, with everyone else being t4 or lower.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present


    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,986

    Elves win due to me saying so.

    This thread.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "Under construction" - Becky, daughter of Guanyin.

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,986

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    So the DE had the advantage and lost.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name
    So then it enhanced DE power too, and she removed it.

    There were claims that any elf mage > any human mage, glad we're over that at least. Now if we look at wizard levels we might even have a reasonable feel of how they rank up next to each other.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name
    So then it enhanced DE power too.

    There were claims that any elf mage > any human mage, glad we're over that at least.
    She is blessed by an elven godess though so it really does not count. And there is no evidence of actual DE casters

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name
    So then it enhanced DE power too.

    There were claims that any elf mage > any human mage, glad we're over that at least.
    She is blessed by an elven godess though so it really does not count. And there is no evidence of actual DE casters
    Still counts, she's a human character. Bound monsters are an evidence. And do you really want to go further down this road or should I bring more examples of human mages beating elf mages?
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name
    So then it enhanced DE power too.

    There were claims that any elf mage > any human mage, glad we're over that at least.
    She is blessed by an elven godess though so it really does not count. And there is no evidence of actual DE casters
    Still counts, she's a human character. Bound monsters are an evidence. And do you really want to go further down this road or should I bring more examples of human mages beating elf mages?
    No it doesn't safe the most powerful monsters like Kharibdyss the don't use sorceresses but the beastmasters affinity to monsters/animals to bind them.Sure find ones really doesn't matter much since few exception here and there don't matter
    to the bigger picture
    The Beastmasters of Clar Karond and Karond Kar can command even the wildest creatures to do their bidding. In part, this mastery springs from their unflinching dedication to the tormentor's craft, but brutality alone would be worthless without a Beastmaster's innate empathy. All Elves share a mystical attunement with the natural world, but while most embrace this bond to gain greater wisdom and fellowship with other living creatures, Dark Elves, and Beastmasters in particular, employ it as another weapon in their arsenal of torment. It matters not whether the beast is a raging Manticore, a cunning Harpy, or the wisest of all Caledor's ancient Dragons: eventually, all submit to the Beastmaster's will, or perish under his lash.[2b]

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name
    So then it enhanced DE power too.

    There were claims that any elf mage > any human mage, glad we're over that at least.
    She is blessed by an elven godess though so it really does not count. And there is no evidence of actual DE casters
    Still counts, she's a human character. Bound monsters are an evidence. And do you really want to go further down this road or should I bring more examples of human mages beating elf mages?
    No it doesn't safe the most powerful monsters like Kharibdyss the don't use sorceresses but the beastmasters affinity to monsters/animals to bind them.Sure find ones really doesn't matter much since few exception here and there don't matter
    to the bigger picture
    The Beastmasters of Clar Karond and Karond Kar can command even the wildest creatures to do their bidding. In part, this mastery springs from their unflinching dedication to the tormentor's craft, but brutality alone would be worthless without a Beastmaster's innate empathy. All Elves share a mystical attunement with the natural world, but while most embrace this bond to gain greater wisdom and fellowship with other living creatures, Dark Elves, and Beastmasters in particular, employ it as another weapon in their arsenal of torment. It matters not whether the beast is a raging Manticore, a cunning Harpy, or the wisest of all Caledor's ancient Dragons: eventually, all submit to the Beastmaster's will, or perish under his lash.[2b]
    Warbeasts controlled by beastmasters are not "bound". It clearly refers to scrolls of binding https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Scroll_of_Binding which are used by mages and are by the way, invented by a human wizard.

    it does matter in a bigger picture that human mages can't be just discounted as inferior, just like you can't discount all elf cavalry just because bretonnian cavalry is better.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    edited August 29

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name
    So then it enhanced DE power too.

    There were claims that any elf mage > any human mage, glad we're over that at least.
    She is blessed by an elven godess though so it really does not count. And there is no evidence of actual DE casters
    Still counts, she's a human character. Bound monsters are an evidence. And do you really want to go further down this road or should I bring more examples of human mages beating elf mages?
    No it doesn't safe the most powerful monsters like Kharibdyss the don't use sorceresses but the beastmasters affinity to monsters/animals to bind them.Sure find ones really doesn't matter much since few exception here and there don't matter
    to the bigger picture
    The Beastmasters of Clar Karond and Karond Kar can command even the wildest creatures to do their bidding. In part, this mastery springs from their unflinching dedication to the tormentor's craft, but brutality alone would be worthless without a Beastmaster's innate empathy. All Elves share a mystical attunement with the natural world, but while most embrace this bond to gain greater wisdom and fellowship with other living creatures, Dark Elves, and Beastmasters in particular, employ it as another weapon in their arsenal of torment. It matters not whether the beast is a raging Manticore, a cunning Harpy, or the wisest of all Caledor's ancient Dragons: eventually, all submit to the Beastmaster's will, or perish under his lash.[2b]

    Warbeasts controlled by beastmasters are not "bound
    ". It clearly refers to scrolls of binding https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Scroll_of_Binding which are used by mages and are by the way, invented by a human wizard.

    it does matter in a bigger picture that human mages can't be just discounted as inferior, just like you can't discount all elf cavalry just because bretonnian cavalry is better.
    Yes they are bound to their will and with chains .

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    They sacked cities what more do you want.It is not an elf magic it is a magic fog/storm which eventually attacked both side and she drained the winds of magic hence powering up there is no mention of DE spell casters present

    I want any actual evidence that they are better than bretonnian knights in combat and so far I can only see that they're about equal at best.

    "Drained the winds of magic" means dispelled, no mentions of her using any spells to attack. "Bound monsters" imply mages who bind them.
    It is from the Storms of Magic book in which the whole point is magical anomalities enhance the caster power
    Even if there were casters which is not requred for the binding of most monster it is the most powerful named caster in Bretonia agains some no name
    So then it enhanced DE power too.

    There were claims that any elf mage > any human mage, glad we're over that at least.
    She is blessed by an elven godess though so it really does not count. And there is no evidence of actual DE casters
    Still counts, she's a human character. Bound monsters are an evidence. And do you really want to go further down this road or should I bring more examples of human mages beating elf mages?
    No it doesn't safe the most powerful monsters like Kharibdyss the don't use sorceresses but the beastmasters affinity to monsters/animals to bind them.Sure find ones really doesn't matter much since few exception here and there don't matter
    to the bigger picture
    The Beastmasters of Clar Karond and Karond Kar can command even the wildest creatures to do their bidding. In part, this mastery springs from their unflinching dedication to the tormentor's craft, but brutality alone would be worthless without a Beastmaster's innate empathy. All Elves share a mystical attunement with the natural world, but while most embrace this bond to gain greater wisdom and fellowship with other living creatures, Dark Elves, and Beastmasters in particular, employ it as another weapon in their arsenal of torment. It matters not whether the beast is a raging Manticore, a cunning Harpy, or the wisest of all Caledor's ancient Dragons: eventually, all submit to the Beastmaster's will, or perish under his lash.[2b]

    Warbeasts controlled by beastmasters are not "bound
    ". It clearly refers to scrolls of binding https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Scroll_of_Binding which are used by mages and are by the way, invented by a human wizard.

    it does matter in a bigger picture that human mages can't be just discounted as inferior, just like you can't discount all elf cavalry just because bretonnian cavalry is better.
    Yes they are bound to their will and with chains .You are being dense on purpose again aren't you?
    Again, nice personal comments, also rich from someone who's extremely biased on the subject to the point of rivaling he who must not be named aka V. Warbeasts controled by beastmasters are never really referred as bound in the lore. Also, storm of magic introduced "bound monsters" as a concept, doesn't really leave room for interpretation. Who's being dense again?
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 22,312
    Posts removed or edited. Keep the personal/inappropriate comments out of the conversation
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410
    We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies.


    Rakarth led an entire army comprised of horrific monsters and Dark Elves, ravaging the lands of Norsca and culminating into a massive siege of Brionne in Bretonnia, where he faced the army of the famed hero Duke, Corentin

    Not a big battle you say

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,897

    We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies.


    Rakarth led an entire army comprised of horrific monsters and Dark Elves, ravaging the lands of Norsca and culminating into a massive siege of Brionne in Bretonnia, where he faced the army of the famed hero Duke, Corentin

    Not a big battle you say
    The battle failed to leave any lasting impression on Bretonnia, so you can choose between the battle being insignificant or the Druchii failing majorly again.
  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 107

    What part of 'they're cavalry aren't you getting'? Wow.. you found a single picture of a Grail Knight on foot.. shall I bother finding 100 on a horse for your every 1 on foot? They are c-a-v-a-l-r-y.

    Yeah, tbf, you're talking away without evidence and you know how I feel about that as I've had to correct you a number of times in reference to the word 'absolutism' and 'among'.

    Oh well done, you've found a specialised Chaos Warrior that's part of a particular tribe, I thought we were talking Chaos Warriors? How many 'Skullreapers were in the army attacking Nuln? If we are talking an elite army are we just talking very specifically about melee troops? If I looked through every version of the game would I find unique Elven troops?

    Let's look at the table and how people judge them:

    https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

    How's the number of pictures any relevant? Are you saying a knight can't fight on foot? Especially knights that have been demonstrated to be just as deadly on foot? This is ridiculous. I mean, unless we go strictly by TT and TT rules, then grail knights are indeed always cavarly. And 100% mathematically stronger than any elf cavalry, or infantry, model for model.

    Your "corrections" are all wrong. And do I need to post a reference for everything I say just because you have no clue about WHFB lore? Googling things like Grail Knights killing all kinds of monsters is easy enough.

    A random tier list? Army competitiveness on TT is not determined by having "the strongest units" and heavily varies from edition to edition.

    Please try to find any elf infantry better than Skullreapers that is not a hero or a lord. I'm waiting.
    They're a cavalry unit.. sure, in the lore they can get off their horse.. thankfully they weren't stapled to it. I'll take that, as Bretonnia ha the most powerful cav in the game, if we are talking outside TT then as we know, simple dice rolls do not concern combat and a cavalry unit cannot charge into mass Phoenix Guard, they're anti large after all.

    My corrections are on point, you tried to make out the armybooks stated every elite unit was the most powerful without checking the fine print and understanding general language as in 'almost', 'among' etc.

    A random tier list.. kind of similar to what you've been spouting..

    Phoenix guard are not "anti large" lol, either in lore or TT. That's a TWW thing. Btw, GK with cycle charging destroy even PG, HE vs Bret is tough in MP. You seriously have no idea about TT or lore and need to read up all these things, why are you even trying?. Grail knights slaughter PG on TT 1v1, for balance sake the cavalry is pretty much always more expensive than infantry though. If you would take a "foot" grail knight (riders have separate stats), they also win vs PG quite convincingly.

    My point is absolutely correct, when everyone is "among the best" no one is. You can't make a power ranking based on this.

    I'm giving you objective TT stats. Not a random subjective tier for TT which represents fights between armies, not between nations. I mean, if we go purely by TT, humans to elves would trade about 1.5-2:1 at best, or even 1:1-1.5 in case of elite humans like Bretonnian knights.
    Trust me halberds are anti large, especially anti horse, you see, horses have an issue with running into a row of pole arms. See again how little dice rules don't affect reality?

    Really? The guy on the blog seems to think Bretonnia is the lowest tier and I have no idea who is the better player, so after previous mistakes I really can't take your word as golden.

    No.. when it says elite among others it means elite among other elites which is fine. Not elite among peasats or tier 3 but elite among tier 5 or specialised tier 4 maybe. You can't change the meaning of words to prove yourself right, you must do it within the context of what actual words mean.

    TT stats without context? Without reference? Sorry, that just won't do. If you've got these basic issues wrong then I'm pretty sure you'll get the intricacies of the TT wrong, possibly purposely to suit your own needs. We have also stated the limits of the old TT.. running into elite pole arms indeed..
    You're trying to apply real world logic to a fantasy game. In this game, greatswords are anti armour, and halberds aren't anti large. Previous mistakes? As if, lol.

    All elites aren't equal. There's also no t3, t4, and t5. TWW stats don't map to actual TT power levels at all. Some units were made a lot more elite, some a lot less. So how do you know who's t4 or t5? You don't (because you don't know TT, or the lore).

    You're wrong pretty much the whole time on this discussion. It's also easy to look up TT point costs, stats and do the math.

    I'm not sure why you keep arguing on the subject you're more and more apparently have extremely poor knowledge of.
    Yes in the lore a cavalry unit doesn't charge at a wall of spears. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean every real world idea is replaced with 'but it's magic'. It's literally impossible for a cavalry unit to fight through heavy halberds. If we are talking peasants sure, but heavy elite halberds? If you say so. If I said.. there's no such thing as magic then you'd have a point, however, aif a horse runs headlong into a braced polearm it will not win. You can cry all you want.

    Right.. and where did you get 'all elites' from in the discussion? I clearly made the point, when we see heavy cav from Bretonnia of course they are going to name heavy cav of Bretonnia's main rivals.. I can't make it any simpler.

    The equivalent then, people know certain elites are similar and know that when they see the word 'among' they can use their basic knowledge of English and know, they are talking about other elites and not claiming that every armybook says 'whatever is in this army book is da best'. You appear to be the only person who thinks that.

    Funny you should mention it, I remember all the Warhammer experts telling me Cathay wouldn't be coming, There's no wat Clan Eshin would be in the game, monos was a no etc. yet I said no, I think you're wrong. You'll never guess what happened. Your issue is you look at things and see what you want to, something the Cathay, mono and Eshin deniers often did. a similar 'expert' sees Empire as a second to bottom tier in the while HE and DE are in the top 2. Who to believe?
    Actually spears are not a problem for heavy cav, spearmen still get trampled and spears suck in close quarters. Halberds are better, because they aren't useless after initial charge. Nice personal remark about crying (thanks, I'm ok).

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise. I keep mentioning it, you keep ignoring it. There are plenty of people who think that all armybooks overexaggerate stuff to make it look better and voiced the same opinion. So no, I'm not the only one who thinks that. Here's a nice discussion on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219323/a-discussion-on-understanding-the-warhammer-world-long-post

    Even if Empire is lower tier on TT and we were to use it as an exact simulation of how battles play out, it would only mean that an army of 150 humans loses to an army of 100 elves maybe 60% of the time. It's not exactly a good argument for elf supremacy. Besides, TT army tiers vary greatly with editions and are not a stable point of reference.

    I don't even see how the last argument is any relevant, CA does with this game things that were never done on TT or in the lore and the game is not an accurate depiction of either TT or the lore by any stretch of imagination.
    It's a good job you weren't in charge of any sort of army. No pole arms are excellent against cavalry - that's a fact. The PG look like elite Swiss Pikemen and I've never heard anyone claim they'd do terrible against cav.

    "Chaos Champions" are not heavy cav. They mention vampire knights (who are a cav unit) and chaos champions (who aren't). It's not a coincidence Chaos Chosen, Blood Knights and Grail Knights are 3 most powerful human sized units on TT stat wise.

    Mentions Chaos Champions and connects that to Chaos Chosen.. and again, who are the enemies of the Bretonnians? Who are Grail Knights most likely to fight? Yes, but I assume those people also don't understand the term 'among', which gives space for interpretation.

    yes, because the entire argument is on a 2 thirds Elven force can be a full force of Empire.. that's the entire point. I think that's wehere you are going wrong, you got so obsessed with numbers to the point were you were arguing.. a high amount of Skaven (don't know how much) beat a lesser amount of Slann (afain don't know how much), while not recognising the Slann were worn out by the dark powers of Morisleb and not the Greyseers.. Go back to basics.
    Nice strawman about pole arms, when I only said that the spears aren't great. But again, this is fantasy. If this wouldn't be fantasy, dragons wouldn't be able to fly and dark elves would die out of starvation and killing each other.

    Chaos Champions are for sure not a reference to any chaos cav. There's no cav unit called "Chaos Champions". You can have a "space for interpretation" based on mental gymnastics, but TT stats support the idea that these 3 are the strongest.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say with your last paragraph. But if 150 humans and beat 100 elves with 40% chance elves are completely boned based on the difference in population sizes and replenishment speed. I'm not sure I got your point right, I'll go watch howtobasic now, I think that's what you said.
    Why are you talking about spears?

    Again, who are the enemies of Bretonnia and who would the Armybook reference in terms of their enemy?

    Why is that my fault?
    Beacause you said something about spears and I replied?

    Main enemies of Bretonnia are Greenskins, Beastmen, Dark Elves, Vampires, Chaos.
    And yet so far we have multiple examples of the DE wining and one of Bretonia doing so with The Fay Enchantress saving the day using a magical storm to power up
    Fay enchantress dispelled the storm, not used it to power up. She just countered elf magic (which btw, means that a human caster can indeed best an unspecified number of one or more elf mages, if there was any doubt). Which allowed the knights to defeat elves and their monsters. We have multiple examples of dark elves successfully raiding something but never winning in a big battle of armies. We also have examples of bretonnian knights besting the wood elves in single combat and in a battle, but as a druchii fanboy you'll probably claim they're 10 times better than their hippy bretheren. I'm sure we can find more references but I'm don't feel like doing an extensive search.
    lets not forget the wood elfs are the best combatants of all the elf realm going off specials rules as they get both the wood elf and dark combat rules
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,410

    "HisShadowBG" send me an unsolicited PM:

    "Won't you stop with the troll comments they really don't work?"

    I'll give you a public reply:

    Take your own advice.

    thank you

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
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