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1st Waagh takes too long to get

ODM_ChosenOneODM_ChosenOne Registered Users Posts: 6
edited September 2021 in Balancing Discussions
Hey there. I know everyone hates GS after their very recent spell on the top of the meta, but I really think with all the deserved nerfs, one mistake has been made. The Waagh has been changed and from a very fun ability it’s now kind of a sad one. I know it will sound like I ask for GS buffs but hear me out.
The problem with Waagh before the change was that it was too easy to get second Waagh and in plenty of cases you could even get a third one. The change it got was kind of deserved but was done rather poorly. Now it’s quite rare to get the second Waagh while you can forget about the third one, that’s all fine. The problem I believe comes with the first Waagh which player simply get too late. It used to be an ability that player got in the peak of battle and now the game is often decided in either way. If you play against another aggressive faction where the melee part is expected to be short, Waagh is kind of obsolete and if you play vs more defensive faction like Coast with which the melee part takes longer, you’ll still get it a little late but maybe there’s still a chance it will be useful.
The solution is easy, make the first Waagh come as fast as it used to and push the second one. Let’s say you need 500 points for 1st Waagh and another 350 for second one, that’s 850 in total. All that needs to happen is to reduce the points for the first one and give it to the second one, so the total amount is same. Maybe even add a few extra points for the second one because if first come sooner you’ll have more models alive to charge your second one. This way Waagh is the cool ability GS deserve. CA can nerf Grom a little more so Waagh can be stronger and fun.
Post edited by ODM_ChosenOne on

Comments

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,895
    I dunno, i find GS very powerful still, the waghhh feels to hit in reasonable timing, it now feels ok to take a melee engagement with GS without being guarded to loose due to waghhh, what you propose goes back on that and melee centric builds will be scared away again. In the end GS units are balanced quite well without waghhh so for the extra 150g you get it for it should not be auto win melee for GS units and i think it works very well now and does not need to trigger faster
  • ODM_ChosenOneODM_ChosenOne Registered Users Posts: 6
    I've never said GS are weak. If you play GS on high level in about half the games Waagh is completely useless, game is decided before you get it. In the other half it might help you. As I said, I know the hate for GS will make this post a little pointless bcs it looks like I ask for buffs for faction that would still probably deserve more nerfs but the fact is that Waagh got nerfed and in some MUs is so bad I would gladly sell it for some extra gold.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 620
    Waaagh has been too strong for a long time, especially when you consider that only their lords pay for it and only 150g. It's in a better spot than it was and it forces GS players to take a bit less of missile units if they want to get it which is great as faction identity didn't make any sense during their dark days with countless skirmishers/missile units and still waagh.
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,387
    It might very well be the case, but Waaagh should also not be able to go off if the lord is dead.
  • ODM_ChosenOneODM_ChosenOne Registered Users Posts: 6

    It might very well be the case, but Waaagh should also not be able to go off if the lord is dead.

    Well I prefered the older Waagh more despite it being cheesable by Khatep and stuff, loosing it with death lord also makes sense. One charge whenever I choose to wasn't extra lore friendly but it's better than getting it when balance of power says 60-40 in one's favour.
    ShevaTsar said:

    it forces GS players to take a bit less of missile units if they want to get it which is great as faction identity.

    I don't know if you play GS or MP in general, but would you tell me how do you beat Dawi air force without skirmish spam, or current VP meta build, or how do you play vs WE without spamming anti-skirmish, how you beat DE full mobility spam, now not meta but Empire mobility spam, how you counterskirmish Lizardmen terradons air force, or the general Chaos 6 skirmish cav builds (there it's more possible). It's nice to say that GS are melee centric faction and therefore should be spamming melee but that's simply not possible.


  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 16,107
    edited August 2021
    I would much rather if they just added arty and dakka counts towards waaagh points edit attacking with range shhould generate waagh points


    So that superior gobbo tactics shine further.
    Post edited by saweendra on
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,895

    I've never said GS are weak. If you play GS on high level in about half the games Waagh is completely useless, game is decided before you get it. In the other half it might help you. As I said, I know the hate for GS will make this post a little pointless bcs it looks like I ask for buffs for faction that would still probably deserve more nerfs but the fact is that Waagh got nerfed and in some MUs is so bad I would gladly sell it for some extra gold.

    Well maybe that can be added? choose to remove waghhh and get -150g on your lord, i doubt anyone would do it but if some might than sure why not.

    I just find it in good spot where brining melee vs GS is acceptable way to fight them now but if you cannot capitalise on that fast GS get the boost with waghh and win, before felt more like you get waghhed no matter what so might aswell avoid melee. I find this change good for diversity of builds vs GS's and like you say they still plenty strong.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,439
    i think the more challenging it is to get the first waagh off in time the more greenskins have to make hard choices about how heavily to emphasize their melee infantry character. It's better design.

    If waagh was too weak (it's still not) you could lower the price but I think the challenge is a good thing and creates more counterplay.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,895

    It might very well be the case, but Waaagh should also not be able to go off if the lord is dead.

    Well I prefered the older Waagh more despite it being cheesable by Khatep and stuff, loosing it with death lord also makes sense. One charge whenever I choose to wasn't extra lore friendly but it's better than getting it when balance of power says 60-40 in one's favour.
    ShevaTsar said:

    it forces GS players to take a bit less of missile units if they want to get it which is great as faction identity.

    I don't know if you play GS or MP in general, but would you tell me how do you beat Dawi air force without skirmish spam, or current VP meta build, or how do you play vs WE without spamming anti-skirmish, how you beat DE full mobility spam, now not meta but Empire mobility spam, how you counterskirmish Lizardmen terradons air force, or the general Chaos 6 skirmish cav builds (there it's more possible). It's nice to say that GS are melee centric faction and therefore should be spamming melee but that's simply not possible.


    I think by bit less he means not taking 6 missile cav everygame, which is not a must vs those facitons, i do think GS need their missiles, what i do feel is needed is waghhh points not go up by unit cards but by unit types, i dont see why taking a war machine should force the GS player to need that much mroe waghh points, frankly speaking i think warmachine entry should not increases waghh points needed for waghhh, mages neither other than lord.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 661
    I see what you are saying OP but straight up buffing the wagh would make the GS into an S+ tier faction. Kind of odd how the wagh works now that it basically only is used in mid to late game.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 620
    edited August 2021

    It might very well be the case, but Waaagh should also not be able to go off if the lord is dead.

    Well I prefered the older Waagh more despite it being cheesable by Khatep and stuff, loosing it with death lord also makes sense. One charge whenever I choose to wasn't extra lore friendly but it's better than getting it when balance of power says 60-40 in one's favour.
    ShevaTsar said:

    it forces GS players to take a bit less of missile units if they want to get it which is great as faction identity.

    I don't know if you play GS or MP in general, but would you tell me how do you beat Dawi air force without skirmish spam, or current VP meta build, or how do you play vs WE without spamming anti-skirmish, how you beat DE full mobility spam, now not meta but Empire mobility spam, how you counterskirmish Lizardmen terradons air force, or the general Chaos 6 skirmish cav builds (there it's more possible). It's nice to say that GS are melee centric faction and therefore should be spamming melee but that's simply not possible.


    Who said they shouldn't pick skirmishers at all? You're still free to spam them in every single match up like before just it has a drawback now.
    What you describe is exactly why it is a nerf, weaknesses GS didn't have before with their almost 0 bad match up are starting to show up now. Sounds almost like most other factions in the game, i'm sure they have a lot to complain about too.
    Could use some polishing sure, but the principle of the faction identity should stay.
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • ODM_ChosenOneODM_ChosenOne Registered Users Posts: 6
    edited August 2021
    The post has never been about a GS not being strong enough, mostly about unecessary nerfs to Waagh making it worthless half of the time. There should have been oher nerfs before it, ROR fanatics are still OP, Grom is still OP, spiders are still too good, Hags are too good... Or maybe just nerf what waagh provides, less DMG or MA. But if you don't get a usefull waagh in 50% of the games then the coolest thing about GS is half gone. And I am really optimistic with 50%.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,224
    I agree in principle, better/faster waagh for a few more nerfs to OP stuff is fine
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 16,107

    It might very well be the case, but Waaagh should also not be able to go off if the lord is dead.

    eh that would bring back the GS lord sniping meta again making grom even more of auto pick i would rather not go back to the dark days .

    if any thing it should the most increase the amount of waagh points needed if the lord is dead
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,989
    I think it would sit well with me if there was only one waagh. Maybe it could come a little earlier but I like that it's tied to melee.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,439
    I mean the waagh still comes alot faster than the dark elf waaagh. It' sjust actually challenging to get it to come at the right moment now, which is a good challenge to have to work around.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,387
    edited August 2021
    saweendra said:

    It might very well be the case, but Waaagh should also not be able to go off if the lord is dead.

    eh that would bring back the GS lord sniping meta again making grom even more of auto pick i would rather not go back to the dark days .

    if any thing it should the most increase the amount of waagh points needed if the lord is dead
    Well that is how GS works anyway. They are highly reliant on their leadership boss. The boss also calls the waaagh. It's not like the faction lacks anti-goon tools of itself either. But you could still buff the squishy lords in that case; e.g. Azhag (not on bird) and regular Orc Warboss are too squishy for an orc.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,308
    No, no, that's Thorek and the Rune of Doom. ;)
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 16,107

    saweendra said:

    It might very well be the case, but Waaagh should also not be able to go off if the lord is dead.

    eh that would bring back the GS lord sniping meta again making grom even more of auto pick i would rather not go back to the dark days .

    if any thing it should the most increase the amount of waagh points needed if the lord is dead
    Well that is how GS works anyway. They are highly reliant on their leadership boss. The boss also calls the waaagh. It's not like the faction lacks anti-goon tools of itself either. But you could still buff the squishy lords in that case; e.g. Azhag (not on bird) and regular Orc Warboss are too squishy for an orc.
    i am honestly meh on it , its just honestly bad game play imo., because if all you got to do is kill the boss than you get way too much of bonus.

    i mean now i think its more balanced killing boss leads to LD issues most GS units lack LD so its easy to actually get chain terror builds .

    but it doesn't auto loose the game for the GS player he still have shot. before it was basically kill the boss and profit against GS which i heavily disliked.

    agree on buffing azag and orc war boss but still.

    as i stated better way to penalize is to add a modifier to waagh points if the boss dies boys need more time to get riled up and get in to waagh frenzy
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,794
    I wrote up a big reply until I realized you were talking about the battle WAAAGH ability and not the Campaign WAAAGH.

    One annoyance I have with battle WAAAAGH is that it doesn't take chariot damage into account. No idea why this is the case, but it definitely slows everything down if you brought some.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,308
    edited August 2021
    Why would chariot damage be effected by Waaagh!?

    It says clearly that it effect MA and Weapon Strength.

    To be honest, I am still completely in the dark about how chariot damage works, because I don't know how those tables work.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,794
    edited August 2021
    Bastilean said:

    Why would chariot damage be effected by Waaagh!?

    It says clearly that it effect MA and Weapon Strength.

    To be honest, I am still completely in the dark about how chariot damage works, because I don't know how those tables work.

    The WAAAGH bar fills up when engaged in melee. However Chariots attacking things in melee do not increase the WAAAGH bar for some reason.


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,439
    edited August 2021
    Jman5 said:

    Bastilean said:

    Why would chariot damage be effected by Waaagh!?

    It says clearly that it effect MA and Weapon Strength.

    To be honest, I am still completely in the dark about how chariot damage works, because I don't know how those tables work.

    The WAAAGH bar fills up when engaged in melee. However Chariots attacking things in melee do not increase the WAAAGH bar for some reason.


    isn't it based on number of models engaged? Specifically incentivizing greenskins to get more bodies into combat, rather than playing fancy high elf style kiting/shooting tactics.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,794
    edited August 2021
    eumaies said:

    Jman5 said:

    Bastilean said:

    Why would chariot damage be effected by Waaagh!?

    It says clearly that it effect MA and Weapon Strength.

    To be honest, I am still completely in the dark about how chariot damage works, because I don't know how those tables work.

    The WAAAGH bar fills up when engaged in melee. However Chariots attacking things in melee do not increase the WAAAGH bar for some reason.


    isn't it based on number of models engaged? Specifically incentivizing greenskins to get more bodies into combat, rather than playing fancy high elf style kiting/shooting tactics.
    Yes. And in this case you have 3 entities engaged, but it's not ticking up even once they get stuck in. Even a single entity lord like Grimgor will move the needle though so it's not because chariots are low model count. Chariots are just excluded from contributing to the WAAAAGH bar for some reason I can't understand.

    It's not just boar chariots either. Grom doesn't contribute at all when engaged in combat. However pump wagons work just fine because they are classified as "war machines"...
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,439
    Jman5 said:

    eumaies said:

    Jman5 said:

    Bastilean said:

    Why would chariot damage be effected by Waaagh!?

    It says clearly that it effect MA and Weapon Strength.

    To be honest, I am still completely in the dark about how chariot damage works, because I don't know how those tables work.

    The WAAAGH bar fills up when engaged in melee. However Chariots attacking things in melee do not increase the WAAAGH bar for some reason.


    isn't it based on number of models engaged? Specifically incentivizing greenskins to get more bodies into combat, rather than playing fancy high elf style kiting/shooting tactics.
    Yes. And in this case you have 3 entities engaged, but it's not ticking up even once they get stuck in. Even a single entity lord like Grimgor will move the needle though so it's not because chariots are low model count. Chariots are just excluded from contributing to the WAAAAGH bar for some reason I can't understand.

    It's not just boar chariots either. Grom doesn't contribute at all when engaged in combat.
    weird. but 3 entities is pretty negligable on the waaagh bar even so, right?
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,794
    edited August 2021
    eumaies said:

    Jman5 said:

    eumaies said:

    Jman5 said:

    Bastilean said:

    Why would chariot damage be effected by Waaagh!?

    It says clearly that it effect MA and Weapon Strength.

    To be honest, I am still completely in the dark about how chariot damage works, because I don't know how those tables work.

    The WAAAGH bar fills up when engaged in melee. However Chariots attacking things in melee do not increase the WAAAGH bar for some reason.


    isn't it based on number of models engaged? Specifically incentivizing greenskins to get more bodies into combat, rather than playing fancy high elf style kiting/shooting tactics.
    Yes. And in this case you have 3 entities engaged, but it's not ticking up even once they get stuck in. Even a single entity lord like Grimgor will move the needle though so it's not because chariots are low model count. Chariots are just excluded from contributing to the WAAAAGH bar for some reason I can't understand.

    It's not just boar chariots either. Grom doesn't contribute at all when engaged in combat.
    weird. but 3 entities is pretty negligable on the waaagh bar even so, right?
    The size of the bar is based on army size, so it depends how big your army is. I think it's +234 per unit for the first one. But yeah, a single entity hitting things isn't massive, but it's not nothing.

    If the snotling wagons are any indication, maybe a minute or two of combat to pay for boar chariots cost on the WAAAGH bar.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 561
    Would it be possible for the Greenskin Lord to contribute more to the generation of Waaagh points? I don't know how it works, but like, Grimgor gets in, he generates 10x more points than other models, and maybe heroes as well, but like x5? Or whatever feels balanced.

    Thematic and incentivises getting lords and heroes into combat to hype up the boys.
  • ODM_ChosenOneODM_ChosenOne Registered Users Posts: 6
    I also kind of wanted to test how Forum people react to things as it's my first post and I understood few things so I'll rephrase.

    Waagh is such a key part of GS lore and in game it's very fun ability. When it comes to MP the point is to get advantage of every gold you spend and in theory you spend gold for Waagh since lords got more expensive. If you get the ability once the game is decided it's useless, doesn't matter who wins. I even tried a full melee armies (simply not realistic for most of real MP) meant to only bring waagh ASAP and it still often came when the game was decided, but I'll admit it wasn't as bad. Thing is, what's the point of such a strong buff when it comes in so late? Wouldn't it be better is it's overall weaker stats but once it matters ? I'll rather have an early game waagh with much weaker stat buffs rather than big buffs 10 seconds before army losses and yes, that happened and I've had 85%+ melee units.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,895
    edited September 2021

    I also kind of wanted to test how Forum people react to things as it's my first post and I understood few things so I'll rephrase.

    Waagh is such a key part of GS lore and in game it's very fun ability. When it comes to MP the point is to get advantage of every gold you spend and in theory you spend gold for Waagh since lords got more expensive. If you get the ability once the game is decided it's useless, doesn't matter who wins. I even tried a full melee armies (simply not realistic for most of real MP) meant to only bring waagh ASAP and it still often came when the game was decided, but I'll admit it wasn't as bad. Thing is, what's the point of such a strong buff when it comes in so late? Wouldn't it be better is it's overall weaker stats but once it matters ? I'll rather have an early game waagh with much weaker stat buffs rather than big buffs 10 seconds before army losses and yes, that happened and I've had 85%+ melee units.

    i agree with the statement but its CA who will unlikely nerf waghhs stats and buff when u get it, DE would love the same also.

    I think first step could be set cost to get it that does not matter which unit type u took, which still favors melee armies but does not punish chariots being taken etc
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