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Something for fun: Theoretical Nippon Roster

Ben1990Ben1990 Registered Users Posts: 887
There were threads about this, contributed some, but now I’m rewriting it with some new ideas I had.



Basic Human Forces:
* Ashigaru – Your standard conscripts/cannon fodder. Expendable, but at least have slightly better stats and gear than the average Bretonnian Peasant along with the same size as them regiment-wise.
Come in four flavors.
Sword being Ashigaru with cheap, mass-produced swords (cheapest Ashigaru), Naginata which are your main source of anti-large/anti-cavalry, bow being your basic ranged support. (no different from an Empire Archer), and finally matchlocks which are superior ranged units but still not as good and at the same time not a bad source of armor-piercing attacks.
* Nipponese Marines – An upgrade over the Ashigaru with the above loadouts along with the addition of being Aquatic and having a 5th variant that is a sword + gun one.
Has however a smaller unit count and aren’t Expendable (because they are actually professional military here).
* Nipponese Pirates – Exactly as it says on the tin. Pirates that were hired/forced into the army under threats of death.
Same variants as the Nipponese Marines, but have an even smaller unit count, are Expendable, yet also come with Aquatic, Stalk and Vanguard Deployment.
* Samurai – Your iron core and heavy-duty workhorse. Strong fighters skilled in both melee and ranged warfare. Come in SIX variants (four of which being melee/ranged hybrid units).
Sword + bow, naginata + bow, sword + matchlock, naginata + matchlock, great weapon (nodachi) and finally, hand cannon which is powerful in range and is also surprisingly good in melee as an improvised club. All of them are costly, but worth every penny if you want to win a war.
* Ronins – Masterless or/and disgraced samurai that are employed as mercenaries and who use unconventional tactics (and may or may not have a chance to regain their former status…IF THEY CAN SURVIVE THAT IS). They don’t use bows and other ranged weapons, but instead utilize melee weapons exclusively.
Come in four variants. Dual sword, naginata, great sword and great axe. Size the same as samurais, but have much less armor. They do however have Stalk and Vanguard Deployment.
* Sumo Bruisers – Big chunky fighters who do their best Ogre impressions. Essentially former sumo wrestlers who took up career in the military.
Infantry damage sponges who while slow, hit hard with their kanabos. Good for holding the line and denying the enemy.
* Elite Samurai – Beefier, angrier and deadlier samurai. The crème de la crème. The Samurai Lord’s best men for the hardest jobs. Armed with ornamental armor and better weapons on top of their superior training, they will deal terrible, terrible damage to the enemy more so than the normal samurai.
Come in four variants. Dual sword + great bow, dual sword + matchlock, handcannon, great weapon (kanabo). More costly and with a smaller number than the basic Samurai.
* Mounted Samurai – Your basic cavalry that comes in two types. Sword + bow, naginata + bow.
* Elite Mounted Samurai – Same as the above loadout-wise, but overall superior stats.
* Ninjas – Your improvement over Nipponese Pirates in terms of skirmishing. Same size, bigger costs, but what you get is Gutter Runners with superior leadership and toughness along with a lot of dodging combined with moving and shooting at the same time.
Come in four variants (three being hybrid variants all armed with shurikens). Sword, naginata, kusarigama (perfect for dealing with multiple enemies due to its wide attacks) and bow. Are armed with smoke bombs.
* Elite Ninjas – The Death Runners to the Ninjas’ Gutter Runners. Even smaller numbers than Ninja regiments, but make it up with coming with six variants and superios stats.
Dual sword + kunai, kusarigama + kunai, tonfa + kunai, as well as all three previous combinations with the kunai replaced with poisoned darts. Are armed with smoke bombs.

Mystical Units and Monsters:
* Miko Archers – The fairer gender. Magical archers with bound spells and different bow attacks depending on type. Come in two types.
Yang Miko, which have bound Lore of Life and Light spells and their bow attacks are both magical and flaming (aka: just like Sisters of Avelorne).
Yin Miko on the other hand have bound Lore of Death and Shadow spells along with bow attacks that are both magical and poisoned. Very useful support unit, but fragile. Avoid them getting into melee at all cost.
* Warrior Monks – Militant monks with basic armor, but with massive war-glaives that can deal horrible damage and can utilize prayers in battle.
Size-wise as big as a samurai regiment, but their armor means they are glass cannons unless you can cast those prayers in the right moment to mitigate the offsets.
* Kirin Samurai – Elite Samurai riding Kirins and armed with enchanted weapons. Come in both sword + bow and naginata + bow, yet both deal magical damage and the Kirins can fly. AKA: Flying, magical Demigryph Knights.
* Tengu – Either Harpies on steroids or Ripperdactyls: Lite Edition. Crowmen armed with dual swords and who spread fear with their Death From Above attacks.
Wear light armor, thus aren’t this durable in a fight and are vulnerable to ranged damage. Can however dish out loads of damage.
* Daitengu – Superior tengu armed with a nodachi. More survivable, deals even more damage and works the same as the normal tengu.
* Kappa Skirmishers – Aquatic turtle creatures with The Hunger and a healing skill they can apply to allies.
Good stats and reasonably numerous in a regiment but will be in jeopardy when fighting a regiment of Chaos Warriors with great weapons.
* Oni – Powerful shock-troopers. Troll-sized mountains of muscle and bad temper. Come in two variants. Kanabo Oni for massive damage and anti-large while sword Oni for quick infantry killing.
Come with Frenzy, Rage and Terror. Troll-sized regiments and low armor are their only weakness.
* Yuki – Onna – Stone cold snow woman of unnatural beauty. Generates an aura of frost around her while also shooting people with her magical ice bow.
While the aura does marginal damage to anyone, the range is very wide and every enemy will be affected by Frostbite. Also comes with The Hunger (because you know, life essence sucking is also their shtick).
* Kasha Chariot – A flying chariot driven by a literal hellcat with wa nyudo (aka: hell priests, aka: flaming bald heads on a equally flaming wheel that drag people to hell and eat babies) as the wheels for it.
Flaming attacks and massive charge bonus.
* Koma Inu – Giant, fast moving stone dogs similar to the ones in Cathay.
As big and as powerful as a Brood Horror, but far more resilient resistance-wise and completely unbreakable.
* Suzaku – Nipponese not!Phoenix. Can’t revive if it dies but has bound Lore of Fire spells to ruin someone’s day.
Competent flying monster.
* Honengyo – The yokai that inspired Godzilla.
Large aquatic monster that is tanky yet slow. Once it does get into melee however it can dish out terrible damage.
* Yamata no Orochi – Aquatic not!Hydra (and which looks more like the Hydra from TW: Troy).
Bane of horde armies but no slouch in fighting other monsters as long as those are not dedicated monster killers (or in general anything anti-large).
* Eastern Dragons – Come in three four types. Ryus who are your average and more common dragons, Wani not being different stat-wise from the former and literally the only ones with bound Lore of Depth spells outside the Vampire Coast, Ryutos who have bound Lore of Fire spells (along with flaming attacks and making anyone flammable) and Seiryu with bound Lore of Heavens spells (and a strong ward save).
All fly and are pretty competent in a fight (Wani also having the Aquatic trait when they land in watered areas).

War Machines and Siege units:
* Nipponese Cannon – A cannon operated by Ashigaru. Your standard siege weapon.
* Sumo Cannoneers – The ranged version of the Sumo Bruisers and who try their best Ogre Leadbelcher impression.
Are armed with larger versions of the hand cannons used by samurai, making them ideal to take out towers, gates and walls.
* Nipponese Great Cannon – It’s a large cannon operated by Sumo Cannoneers. What else do you want?
* Oni Cannon – A larger cannon than the Nipponese one. So big it needs to be operated by Onis because they are the only ones who have enough muscle power to load the massive cannonballs.
* Raijin Doom Shrine – At first glance it’s a shrine that happens to be settled on a cart with a strange monk riding it while it is pulled by a pair of golden wolves. In reality it’s a magic artillery that can call down thunderbolts straight on a enemy from the very heavens.
Due to the fact how it works, no fortification and no shield can save someone from this…unless they bury underground that is.

Heroes:
* Samurai Captain – Your basic fighter hero.
An Elite Samurai who attained leadership status and became one of the few closest retainers of his lord. Has both sword + great bow and can mount a horse and later a kirin.
* Ninja Master – Your basic assassin hero.
Armed with a sword and kunai, both of which are poisoned, he has access to the same traits as Elite Ninjas. Unlike them he can additionally use supernatural abilities to boost his combat skills or to disengage.
* Onmyoji – Your spellcaster hero who also is a monk.
Comes with six variants. Two yang, two yin, and two being a combination of both, each having a different set of Lore of Life, Light, Death and Shadow spells.
Apart of this he has access to the same prayers as the Warrior Monks, but can further upgrade them while having also his own unique prayers. This makes the onmyoji quite versatile and useful in a fight. Can mount a horse and later a Koma Inu.
* Geisha Mystic – At first glance it’s a attractive geisha. But in reality this is a woman in possession of a supernatural bloodline that grants her a number of useful abilities along with having shapeshifting abilities at the cost of not being capable of casting spells if they transform.
Those of the Kitsune bloodline gain Lore of Fire spells on top of transforming into a Demigryph-sized fox monster.
Those of the Jorogumo bloodline gain access to Lore of Shadows and the ability to shapeshift into a drider-esque spider lady (can even spawn spider hatchlings).
Those of the Onryo line gain Lore of Death and can summon ghostly samurai and miko archers while also transforming into a nightmarish Banshee-like spirit host.
Those of the Tennyo line are the only ones with the Lore of Heaven and, while not a true transformation but kind of, shapeshift into a more divine form that has a regeneration aura and can inspire nearby troops with her dance.

Lords:
* Samurai Lord – Your main army leader. Same like the Samurai Captain, but with far more options and better stats. Baseline lord is a hybrid melee/ranged warrior. Can mount a horse, a kirin, and later the four dragon types.
* Ninja Grand-Master – The Master Assassin to the Ninja Master’s Assassin. Ninja Grand-Masters lead multiple forces of ninjas and are possessed by immense skills as both fighters and infiltrators.
Have access to jutsu, like the Ninja Master, that further boost their fighting skills or allow them to disengage in order to attack from a different angle. Also has smoke bombs.
* Grand Onmyoji – Caster lord with superior spellcasting skills. Unlike the Onmyoji hero, the Grand Onmyoji, apart of having access to the lore combos the hero has, has additionally access to three more yang, yin and mixed lore that involves Lore of Heaven and Dark.
Can mount a horse, a Koma Inu, and finally a Suzaku and any of the dragons.
* Courtesan Mystic – Everything the Geisha Mystic has but ramped up further and with additional abilities to make her more useful than she is already.

What do you think about it? Also all the basic human units and all war machine/siege units (except for the Raijin Doom Shrine and Oni Cannon) can also arm themselves with suicide packs that allow soldiers to explode on death if their regiment is reduced to a certain level.

Comments

  • SerkeletSerkelet Member Registered Users Posts: 555
    Waaaay too many variants. Lots of redundant units. No chance in hell.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,014
    I like the roster! Not sure about the number of variants but it seems nice and fun to play with. Not sure giving Nippon dragons would be a good idea though. While yes, Japan obviously has dragons in its mythology I think it would just make Cathay's Dragons a bit less unique potentially.
  • arthadawarthadaw Registered Users Posts: 1,092
    Aren't Oni already Ogre though ? Just that they are a sub-variation that often sport horns ?
  • Rob18446Rob18446 Registered Users Posts: 2,095
    Don't think the Samurai need more than 1 hybrid varient tbh
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 24,875
    I’m a simple man, I see a Nippon thread, I like it.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • DragantisDragantis PolandRegistered Users Posts: 390
    If it was a camp pack Yamata-no-Orochi could be a monster type LL that look like a hydra with 9 heads.
    Blood for the Blood God!
    Among men, Lu Bu. Among horses, Red Hare.
  • hanebuchhanebuch Registered Users Posts: 67
    This roster seems to be too big. If we get nippon they will be most likely a campaign pack and in the past dlc races had 20-27 units(without heros and lords) e.g tomb Kings had 23 units and vampire coast 26 units. Your roster has over 50 units in it and a roster this big would have lot of useless units in it.

    I don't think that nippon would have marines and pirates and a lot of elite units are also likely unnecessary. A few units from your roster could also be cut to make Nippon different from Cathay, like gunpowder units and eastern dragons.

  • Ben1990Ben1990 Registered Users Posts: 887
    OK, I may have overdid it with probably adding too many monsters...
    hanebuch said:

    This roster seems to be too big. If we get nippon they will be most likely a campaign pack and in the past dlc races had 20-27 units(without heros and lords) e.g tomb Kings had 23 units and vampire coast 26 units. Your roster has over 50 units in it and a roster this big would have lot of useless units in it.

    I don't think that nippon would have marines and pirates and a lot of elite units are also likely unnecessary. A few units from your roster could also be cut to make Nippon different from Cathay, like gunpowder units and eastern dragons.

    HELL NO. Sure maybe cutting out three out of four dragons would be OK (as well as some monsters now that I look at it), but THE GUNPOWDER STUFF STAYS.
  • GrbaGrba Registered Users Posts: 249
    Would love to get a Zatoichi and Miyamoto Musashi inspired LLs for Nippon if it ever gets introduced in game 3.
  • SerkeletSerkelet Member Registered Users Posts: 555
    Ok, so this is my take on how to make your roster less bloated:

    Ashigaru: two variants only, yari (no phalanx, would behave like a normal spear), and matchlock.

    I am not sure what to do with the marines. Probably I would place them at a similar tier as the samurai with the following differences: less armoured, faster moving, aquatic and I would have them be a hybrid infantry type; to differentiate them from the matchlock ashigaru, they'd use short range hand cannons, and a sword.

    Pirates would be the Walmart ninjas, poorly armoured and carrying all sorts of short melee weaponry. As you said, they'd have stalk and vanguard.

    For samurai I would go for an early tier variant being the yari, for having an affordable option, and have the naginata and nodachi variants being the stronger tier samurai. You don't need an elite samurai unit, you can make these strong enough! Then you have the bow variant, which could be some of the best human archers in the game. Again, why adding an elite tier? Feels redundant.

    I would conflate the sumo units with the oni. Have the Oni look like monstrous horned sumo dressed tetsubo weilding scary dudes. You only need one variant of this.

    I like the Warrior Monks being this glass cannon unit, but I would take away the prayer abilities from the unit and give it to a Warrior Monk hero type.

    I am not opposed to magical archers but I would give this role to some samurai sword saints unit, a melee bow hybrid low model count elite unit; I wouldn't be opposed to have this as the only super elite foot samurai variant.

    Why so many variants of ninjas? It's ridiculous. Ninjas are already the expensive elite version of the pirates. Why having an extra tier?? Just have two variants, a cheaper bonus vs inf dual wielding variant and a melee ap more expensive variant. Have them both throw poison shuriken.

    Make casters something unrelated to the monks. Religion and magic don't bode well in Warhammer. Monks should have prayers and buffs, casters should be something else.

    Cavalry: A cheaper yari variant, a bow variant and a heavy more expensive naginata variant. Not the entire army has to be hybrid, it feels over the top. It's just enough by making nipponese archery competent in melee.

    For mythological creatures I won't say anything other than there are too many variants again. Kirin riders only need one variant, for example. I wouldn't have dragons for Nippon, that's kind of the Cathayan thing.
  • ResileafResileaf Registered Users Posts: 144
    Although there are certainly too many variants, I feel like some people are way too serious about things other people do for fun. Almost as many dislikes as likes? That's just a fun thread, people, lighten up a bit.

    In any case, personally I'd add a Kensai hero. A swordmaster duellist with a no-dachi or two swords who specializes in dealing high damage to single entity units. A Miyamoto Musashi type of character seeking enlightenment through single combat, basically.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,129
    well, nice, but it would be like the biggest roster in the game...
  • EvenriderEvenrider Registered Users Posts: 17
    The dlc races (not preorder or bretonnia) had around 4-5 generic characters, so your 8 generic characters will be reduced to it. The good thing, your lord and hero options are identical (both a ninja, samurai, monk/support, mystic/shapeshifter/magican)

    I would stay with the variants, but who of your generic characters is truly an army leader?
    • Samurai can lead armies.
    • Ninjas maybe but as a hero they fit more
    • Monks as Ninjas, not directly the one who are in charge of an army
    • Magicans could lead armies too.
    I would go for a ninja hero, a monk hero, a mystic hero, a samurai lord and a mystic lord.
    The basic samurai/meele hero would be missing, but with woodelves and beastmen it wouldn't be the first race where the basic meele hero joins through TWW Access/DLC.

    Then your 68 unit roster hast to be reduced to dlc length.
    Ashigaru: these units sounds like empire spearmen/archers or skaven slaves. So it should be the unit you can build only with the province building. In this case 2 variants (one meele, one ranged) are enough. If you really want them, then with two meele variants and a ranged variant like the skaven slaves. AP on this low tier will be mostly useless.

    Marines/Pirates: i wouldn't add them to the basic roster. More like Aranessa's Human units. Build on the docks, higher tier (tier 3 docks?) than Aranessas, because Aranessa's are too fast useless and with less variants (sword+gun+vanguard+stalk as hybrid, matchlock as ranged, spear or dual sword as meele). They should be only usable by 1 LL (a naval/pirate one).

    Samurai: I'm not sure if we need a second mainly hybrid human race after Kislev but why not. Reduce the variants. 1 with meele AP, 1 with ranged AP, 1 with high range, 1 anti large, 1 anti infantry. This would be 4-5 weapons, combine them to 2 or 3 hybrid variants.

    Ronins: where is the difference between great axe and great sword? I would only use the dual sword variant.

    Mounted Samurais: Hybrid cavalry rarely exists. Heavy ranged cavalry gets catched because of the missing movement speed and light shock cavalry is not that great. Ranged calvary you usually kite, while heavy meele calvary is used as hammer for your infantry anvil. And where do they put the spear while shooting?
    I would remove the bow for the spear variant. 1 heavy shock cavalry and 1 kite cavalry with moderate meele (enough to stay against shock cavalry and protect your own flanks)

    Ninjas: I would remove the spear and bow variant.

    Elite versions: removed.

    Sumo/Oni: Like Serkelet conflate them. But i would go for 2 variants. 1 Meele and 1 Ranged (Hand Cannon) like Ushabti with Bows. A japanese deamon with a cannon in it's hands :smile: And there aren't many monstrous ranged infantry.

    Kirin: If i can believe in Wikipedia the qilin is mainly a chinese fictional animal who got adapted by japan, korea,... So they should be with Cathay. On the other side, many fictional characters got adaptions in different countries and it's hard to find out what was first.

    Kuma inu: Again, after Wikipedia China was first, so they go to Cathay

    Yuki onna: if she's just a woman it sounds more like a hero option than a real monster. But if she's as big as a giant a monster fits too.

    No Dragons, you've got more than enough other monsters and there is a reason why they are known as "chinese dragon"

    Cannons: Just 1 cannon.

    I would be down to 25 units (3 samurai and 2 ashigaru, marines/pirates not counted because they are special units of 1 LL), with 5 generic characters. Then it fits.

    If i start searching for all monsters will they all be with Cathay, because China had all of them first?
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151
    I hope they add some detail and narrative. 2 main samurai clans, one 'good and one 'bad'. A clan based on the Ainu that can either be saved or pushed further into league with the Daemons..
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,065
    I like it.

    Cathay shall pave the way. Nippon shall follow.
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  • SerkeletSerkelet Member Registered Users Posts: 555
    edited September 3
    With the ronin I would do something special. Like having them in a sort of mercenary pool to be able to access to samurai units anywhere and in early game, with the caveats of being less armoured and with a fewer model count than the regular samurai counterparts. In addition I would give them the Expendable attribute, making them special in that they would be a fairly elite unit with such attribute, making it quite interesting.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,043
    Imagine Miko Archers shooting bows from Jack-o position. Peak Nippon.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,129
    edited September 4
    I don't like the idea of elite on top of the elite in any game, really. Samurai are already supposed to be full-time warriors, trained from birth and representing the pinnacle of warrior virtue. While some samurai would obviously be better than their fellow, the concept of elite samurai as a military unit doesn't make much sense. If we need something stronger than them, it should be also something different.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,151
    Xenos7777 said:

    I don't like the idea of elite on top of the elite in any game, really. Samurai are already supposed to be full-time warriors, trained from birth and representing the pinnacle of warrior virtue. While some samurai would obviously be better than their fellow, the concept of elite samurai as a military unit doesn't make much sense. If we need something stronger than them, it should be also something different.

    There are concepts of some Samurai's being better than others, the red Samurai of Ii were considered a higher quality than others. Training could well be different around different areas producing a more lethal troop type. If you add to that Nippon could well have a different outlook allowing some samurai to mostly focus on a mixture of strategy and settlement management while others were specialised battlefield specialists.
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