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Is 50% too soon for 'Wounds' passive ability?

IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 4,509
edited September 11 in General Discussion



I just realized that a lot of single entities get below 50% HP and I think it is too soon to start the penalty, I think 20%-30% should be the threshold in which a single unit should get that penalty.


What do you think about this?
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Comments

  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 1,197
    I feel like you are interpreting it as a critically injured modifier. It’s not. It’s meant to make it so that single entities don’t remain dominant by avoiding the decrease in effectiveness all other units get as they lose models.

    If anything it’s not enough and should be a scaling modifier at every quarter of health rather then just 50%.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,110
    KInda depends?

    It does mean that burst single target damage is suddenly much more effective. You get them down to the 50% threshold and they are suddenly a much worse unit and harder to get value out of.

    So it does mean monsters require at least some management.

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  • SusaVileSusaVile Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 794
    Let me give you a perspective here:

    A Jabberslythe has:
    Base weapon damage - 135;
    Armor piercing damage - 315;
    Speed - 65;

    After 50% health, it would go down to:
    Base weapon damage - 108;
    Armor piercing damage - 252;
    Speed - 58,5;

    On multiplayer this might be relevant enough. On single player, I believe it should be definitely more. You can offset this even with just some research or redline buffs, and even gain some stats over the inital ones (weapon strength +24% is quite usual fkr single entities).

    So, no. If anything I would like more reductions, specially speed, melee defense, etc.
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  • Xerxes52Xerxes52 Registered Users Posts: 775
    I think it's a good idea, but I would prefer a three tier system that provides progressively stronger debuffs as the entity's health decreases:

    At 60% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -10%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -10%
    Speed: -5%

    At 40% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -20%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -20%
    Speed: -10%

    At 20% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -30%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -30%
    Speed: -15%


  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 4,967
    I just hope that CA doesn't add this rule to the Rogue Idol of Gork (or Mork) as it has something similar built in already and having both in place would drastically nerf it.
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  • RobotWithClownShoesRobotWithClownShoes Registered Users Posts: 8
    The system needs to work more like the brackets used in the table top they do now, you lose 25% health you lose a little effectiveness, if it has 4 hp left it is nowhere near damage or speed where it would be at full HP
  • BlacedBlaced Registered Users Posts: 1,463
    Wyvax said:

    I just hope that CA doesn't add this rule to the Rogue Idol of Gork (or Mork) as it has something similar built in already and having both in place would drastically nerf it.

    Fair enough, doesn't make sense for Construct to wound, by the way, Rogue idol should get construct or something similar
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,074
    Blaced said:

    Wyvax said:

    I just hope that CA doesn't add this rule to the Rogue Idol of Gork (or Mork) as it has something similar built in already and having both in place would drastically nerf it.

    Fair enough, doesn't make sense for Construct to wound, by the way, Rogue idol should get construct or something similar
    Constructs still get wounded. That's how they lose HP.
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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,074
    If anything 50% is a bit too low.

    It's meant to take effect and lower the unit's efficiency as it loses HP. It makes a lot of sense from a gameplay perspective.
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  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 4,509
    I like the scaling modifier, at least it feels natural.

    Even some units could have a special passive that does the opposite: make you stronger when losing HP.
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  • summertimelovinsummertimelovin Registered Users Posts: 462
    I don't think it'll make much of a difference in singleplayer with how much you can buff units. A tier system like what @Xerxes52 mentioned but with greater debuffs would be better. I really think melee defense should also take a hit.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,944
    The wounds system as presented is insufficient.

    #1 It only weakens melee and once again doesn't do anything to ranged and magic performance
    #2 If you have healing, it makes said healing even more valuable and healing is already way too valuable when it comes to single entities
    #3 It has only a single step which is too simplistic
    #4 It's apparently applied to all single entities

    In AoS and 40k, which introduced wound thresholds, wound debuffs come in five or three steps respectively and they affect all the primary abilities of the entity. If Nagash gets busted down to certain levels, he becomes worse at casting as well as fighting. If a Cygor gets wounded, he becomes worse at throwing his boulder. Healing is also not as widespread or reliable on the TT, so that's less of a concern.
    On the TT wound thresholds are also only applied to particularly beefy entities (12+ wounds), not single entities as a whole.

    I would not like if Grimgor had wound thresholds when he would much faster cross them with his paltry 5.5k health than a mammoth with 14k HP.

    So this is something CA needs to refine before WH3 drops.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,649
    My biggest issue with this is it just makes ranged units even stronger. Unless they nerf them too the end game meta will just go from monsters and missiles to missiles. And it might balance them in a vacuum but I still don't believe the AI is capable of fighting a doomstack of SEMs even with the wound system.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,307
    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't base weapon damage cover both melee and ranged?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,944
    edited September 12

    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't base weapon damage cover both melee and ranged?

    Projectile damage is separate from melee weapon strength. Otherwise ranged units would inflict tons of damage in melee too.
  • BayesBayes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,937

    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't base weapon damage cover both melee and ranged?

    By default it is always melee damage unless it specifically says missile damage I am pretty sure.
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  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    I think those with the best ranged and heavy armour will prevail far better than those without, so in theory yet another win for the dwarfs and another loss for the vampires. Either way, I can't wait to mod it the **** out of the game. 25% is sufficient but 50%, that can be sniped down so quickly.


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  • mdgh1991mdgh1991 Registered Users Posts: 429
    edited September 12
    Agree.

    BTW it is not fair at all. All units can suffer from wounds, why just single entities?
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 323
    I think that this feature should be especially aimed against flying lords in multiplayer. Too much cheesing around. They lose all their units and kill you with an OP flying LL. No-No!
  • MasariusMasarius Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,173
    mdgh1991 said:

    Agree.

    BTW it is not fair at all. All units can suffer from wounds, why just single entities?

    Others units suffer losses and hence lose combat prowness. At the moment SEM don't have this drawback.

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  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,818

    I feel like you are interpreting it as a critically injured modifier. It’s not. It’s meant to make it so that single entities don’t remain dominant by avoiding the decrease in effectiveness all other units get as they lose models.

    If anything it’s not enough and should be a scaling modifier at every quarter of health rather then just 50%.

    I get the feeling that it might just make healing magic even more dominant. Even after they fiddled with Dwellers, life magic is still awesome.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,803
    Xerxes52 said:

    I think it's a good idea, but I would prefer a three tier system that provides progressively stronger debuffs as the entity's health decreases:

    At 60% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -10%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -10%
    Speed: -5%

    At 40% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -20%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -20%
    Speed: -10%

    At 20% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -30%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -30%
    Speed: -15%


    this doesn't account for healing and ranged and magic but a good system

    so at
    At 60% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -10%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -10%
    Speed: -5%
    Missle Strength
    base 10%
    Ap 10%
    Miscast chance 10% increase


    At 40% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -20%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -20%
    Speed: -10%
    Missle Strength
    base 20%
    Ap 20%
    accuracy 20%
    Miscast chance 20% increase



    At 20% Health:

    Base Weapon Damage: -30%
    Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: -30%
    Speed: -15%
    Missle Strength
    base 30%
    Ap 30%
    accuracy 30%
    Miscast chance 30% increase



    and add lingering wounds to the mix which prevent wound debuffs from removing until the next turn even witht the healing and this would be fixed
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  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 1,197
    Sephlock said:

    I feel like you are interpreting it as a critically injured modifier. It’s not. It’s meant to make it so that single entities don’t remain dominant by avoiding the decrease in effectiveness all other units get as they lose models.

    If anything it’s not enough and should be a scaling modifier at every quarter of health rather then just 50%.

    I get the feeling that it might just make healing magic even more dominant. Even after they fiddled with Dwellers, life magic is still awesome.
    But we know they are experimenting with counter healing mechanics. We saw fire damage countering it and there might be more ways. So that might not really be a problem.
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 4,509

    Sephlock said:

    I feel like you are interpreting it as a critically injured modifier. It’s not. It’s meant to make it so that single entities don’t remain dominant by avoiding the decrease in effectiveness all other units get as they lose models.

    If anything it’s not enough and should be a scaling modifier at every quarter of health rather then just 50%.

    I get the feeling that it might just make healing magic even more dominant. Even after they fiddled with Dwellers, life magic is still awesome.
    But we know they are experimenting with counter healing mechanics. We saw fire damage countering it and there might be more ways. So that might not really be a problem.
    fire damage? explain.
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION ENABLED for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast! feat mummies and Apophas.
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!

  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 1,197
    edited September 12

    Sephlock said:

    I feel like you are interpreting it as a critically injured modifier. It’s not. It’s meant to make it so that single entities don’t remain dominant by avoiding the decrease in effectiveness all other units get as they lose models.

    If anything it’s not enough and should be a scaling modifier at every quarter of health rather then just 50%.

    I get the feeling that it might just make healing magic even more dominant. Even after they fiddled with Dwellers, life magic is still awesome.
    But we know they are experimenting with counter healing mechanics. We saw fire damage countering it and there might be more ways. So that might not really be a problem.
    fire damage? explain.
    In the trial by fire demo, it was discovered that they changed fire damage to apply an effect that debuffs healing for 10 seconds.
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