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Cathay is Empire 2.0

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  • BrakierBrakier Registered Users Posts: 1,756
    what i heard from the lore cathay was always bigger then empire, so nothing new really
  • gorgos96gorgos96 Member Registered Users Posts: 379

    gorgos96 said:

    gorgos96 said:

    gorgos96 said:



    Cmon now. There are way more popular races e on that part of the world that had already established lore and books. Them choosing cathay out of those possibilities sure is a marketing strategy that aims at the Chinese markets. Im not against the inclusion of china in the game mind you. But Im against the notion of it being at the cost of destroying everything the empire was for the sake of it.

    This isn't close to destroying everything the empire was. This was a basically unexplored and unknown part of the world with a lot of delivery mystery to it. The empire still exists as the dominant human civilisation of the west.

    Their chraisma steemed from using gunpowder and steel without monsters and other creatures to face unworldly abominations. But cathay does those as well as deploying monsters, fliers and even better tech. Empire is now just inferior Cathay.

    The Warhammer setting which embraces balance through imbalance contradicts this very notion of a faction being a clear upgrade to another one.
    This is an enormous overreaction. Does Cathay have better tech? Does it have cavalry as strong as the Empire? Does it have the same variety in magic, artillery, hero choices etc.

    I say they have better tech because they have flying war machines and in the trailer we see that their rifles are bolt action instead of muzzle loaders. For cavalry, first of all Empire cav is not that good anyway (notice Im saying cav, not monstrous cav). And from the faq and screenshots we know that Cathay will have flying cav, armored cav and light cav. So they will likely be similar in power level of ground cav but they will have the advantage of flyer cav. It doesn't have the same variety of magic but it doesnt mean theyre weak magic users as trailer, interviews and the faq indicates theyre top tier magic casters. They dont have the steam tank yeah, but they have rockets, mortars and flying artillery. I think other than steam tank their artillery arsenal wins out because of the flying option. Even if we exclude flying artillery, then they would be on par since Empire's strongest artillery is Hellstorm and Cathay has it as well.
    They have better tech because of one unit which we know almost nothing about and different animations for missile units.
    They have similar level cav because they have cav.
    They have on par artillery because they have some basic artillery but miss out on the steam tank.

    You might end up being right but this isn't clear from this. It's a release trailer for Cathay, they should look good. They lack the Empire's variety in magic and lack the range of artillery the Empire has (or its top-end specialist pieces). We have no idea if their cavalry or infantry will be total chaff, we can safely expect their missile infantry to be good because CA have told us. The rest is just your worst fears and nothing else.
    Fair points dude. They may indeed be hyping them up for trailer purposes. I'm just voicing my concerns solely based on what we've seen so far. I hope I will be wrong.
  • steam_163135713382gsXFcdRsteam_163135713382gsXFcdR Registered Users Posts: 1,563
    That's just what happens if you insist on adding more and more factions and units to a game that already has all possible meaningful combinations. It's just bloat at this point.
  • RyanSewellRyanSewell Registered Users Posts: 109
    gorgos96 said:

    gorgos96 said:

    gorgos96 said:

    gorgos96 said:



    Cmon now. There are way more popular races e on that part of the world that had already established lore and books. Them choosing cathay out of those possibilities sure is a marketing strategy that aims at the Chinese markets. Im not against the inclusion of china in the game mind you. But Im against the notion of it being at the cost of destroying everything the empire was for the sake of it.

    This isn't close to destroying everything the empire was. This was a basically unexplored and unknown part of the world with a lot of delivery mystery to it. The empire still exists as the dominant human civilisation of the west.

    Their chraisma steemed from using gunpowder and steel without monsters and other creatures to face unworldly abominations. But cathay does those as well as deploying monsters, fliers and even better tech. Empire is now just inferior Cathay.

    The Warhammer setting which embraces balance through imbalance contradicts this very notion of a faction being a clear upgrade to another one.
    This is an enormous overreaction. Does Cathay have better tech? Does it have cavalry as strong as the Empire? Does it have the same variety in magic, artillery, hero choices etc.

    I say they have better tech because they have flying war machines and in the trailer we see that their rifles are bolt action instead of muzzle loaders. For cavalry, first of all Empire cav is not that good anyway (notice Im saying cav, not monstrous cav). And from the faq and screenshots we know that Cathay will have flying cav, armored cav and light cav. So they will likely be similar in power level of ground cav but they will have the advantage of flyer cav. It doesn't have the same variety of magic but it doesnt mean theyre weak magic users as trailer, interviews and the faq indicates theyre top tier magic casters. They dont have the steam tank yeah, but they have rockets, mortars and flying artillery. I think other than steam tank their artillery arsenal wins out because of the flying option. Even if we exclude flying artillery, then they would be on par since Empire's strongest artillery is Hellstorm and Cathay has it as well.
    They have better tech because of one unit which we know almost nothing about and different animations for missile units.
    They have similar level cav because they have cav.
    They have on par artillery because they have some basic artillery but miss out on the steam tank.

    You might end up being right but this isn't clear from this. It's a release trailer for Cathay, they should look good. They lack the Empire's variety in magic and lack the range of artillery the Empire has (or its top-end specialist pieces). We have no idea if their cavalry or infantry will be total chaff, we can safely expect their missile infantry to be good because CA have told us. The rest is just your worst fears and nothing else.
    Fair points dude. They may indeed be hyping them up for trailer purposes. I'm just voicing my concerns solely based on what we've seen so far. I hope I will be wrong.
    I'm fairly confident that CA won't render the centrepiece faction of Warhammer (maybe WoC instead) obsolete entirely. I also really hope they don't. We shouldn't be too kneejerk at a cinematic.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 2,803
    Crossil said:

    No?

    Cathay has comparatively little gunpowder from what I can tell. Nothing along the lines of a Steam Tank and sheer arty variety.

    Wait until we get the Nuln DLC and the actual gunpowder LL in Jubal Falk.

    As for the rest, it still feels like Cathay is mostly populated by humans, but the main overlords are the Dragons, not humans. So it's a human faction, but one that isn't entirely human in nature.

    This does still place Nehekhara as the first truly human civilization of the setting. So at least that part is consistent with some old lore.

    And I think the Empire still wins in cavalry, infantry and range. It loses in flyers and monsters. I'm not sure about magic.

    Shouldn't Elspeth be the legendary lord of Nuln? With Jubal as LH?
    No, i also dislike Garth Ennis. He is very juvenile and raunchy, and some of his statements are utterly ridiculous, like Captain America being offensive to WWII veterans when his co-creator, Jack Kirby, served in the war and soldiers liked his stories.

    If you think using your abilities to help and inspire people is childish, then i feel sorry for you.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,216
    gorgos96 said:

    Not to be that guy, but for about 80% of human history, China was almost always one of if not the most technologically advanced nation in the world, whereas the Empire's real life counterpart didn't really get anywhere close to that until the 1800's. It makes some sense that Cathay seems more developed than the Empire, especially with how magic looks to play a bigger role, on top of a literal god emperor.

    That said, the Empire being this strangely grounded faction while also having clear fantastical flair like the mechanical horses, magisters, halflings, and Sigmar is what makes it so interesting to play.

    Ok so lets give them better tech, bigger nation, cavalry, better infantry, better range, monsters, fliers. Then it goes back to my original question. What is Reikland anymore?

    Are you suggesting the gimmick of pllaying as the Reikland should be to be inferior in every conceivable way to other factions?
    Let's look at war tech

    Cathay: cannons and flying airships

    Empire: cannon, war wagons, literal tanks, artillery battery, magic lasers.

    You're being hyperbolic.
  • MikhaelHMikhaelH Member Registered Users Posts: 221
    Alchimist said:

    Furthermore, as far as the lore goes, it was always written from the Old World point of view, leaving Cathay as an unknown, but it makes perfect sense that Cathay would be the "Empire" of the east. You can also see the Empire of Man as the only nation that is really governed by humanity and following a human god, while Cathay is governed by dragons.

    Yes, I think this is precisely the angle GW will use to fit Cathay into the lore, both the perspective of the prior lore being old-world centric, and the specific that Cathay is officially ruled by dragon demi-gods and therefore only partially a realm of men.
  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 1,111
    We'll need to see how things play out, but Empire may still hold onto relevance. The big down side is that Cathay seems to have mechanics that support their combined-arms style of gameplay better.

    But so far we haven't seen any Cathay cavalry that could rival Demigryph Knights, nor infantry that could take Greatswords in melee. Artillery could be a toss-up.

    Magic is curious. It seems like Cathay has two unique lores, as well as Metal and Heavens. The Empire has a much broader range of magic, including some of the best like Life and Fire. And they still have room for more Wizard Wagons, foremost among them the Celestial Hurricanum.

    Empire needs a pass to reinforce its combined arms doctrine, but it should be able to hold onto relevance in a setting with Cathay. After all, Cathay has always been someplace grander and richer than the Empire, but impossibly far away.
  • DarthEnderXDarthEnderX Registered Users Posts: 652
    gorgos96 said:

    What even is Karlf Franz's Empire anymore? Theyre not the ultimate gunpowder human faction. Theyre not the most populous nation. Theyre not the mightiest human army. All of those are now suddenly Cathay.

    Cathay is not a human faction.

    They're a dragon faction with lots of human slaves.

  • gladonosgladonos Registered Users Posts: 717
    Wait, do they really have bolt action rifles? Where is that at in the trailer? If so, yes, that is absolutely appealing to the Chinese market. That is total China wank.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,794
    Erathil said:

    We'll need to see how things play out, but Empire may still hold onto relevance. The big down side is that Cathay seems to have mechanics that support their combined-arms style of gameplay better.

    But so far we haven't seen any Cathay cavalry that could rival Demigryph Knights, nor infantry that could take Greatswords in melee. Artillery could be a toss-up.

    Magic is curious. It seems like Cathay has two unique lores, as well as Metal and Heavens. The Empire has a much broader range of magic, including some of the best like Life and Fire. And they still have room for more Wizard Wagons, foremost among them the Celestial Hurricanum.

    Empire needs a pass to reinforce its combined arms doctrine, but it should be able to hold onto relevance in a setting with Cathay. After all, Cathay has always been someplace grander and richer than the Empire, but impossibly far away.

    Well the difference is really empire is not tied to one type of play style. If harmony is what i think it will be . Than Cathay will have much more restrictions on how they can play.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 959
    gladonos said:

    Wait, do they really have bolt action rifles? Where is that at in the trailer? If so, yes, that is absolutely appealing to the Chinese market. That is total China wank.

    I haven't seen any yet. The long rifles and the large barrel dragon headed guns look flintlock guns, which is a bit out of place thematically considering the rest of the army, but They didn't look bolt action, at least not from the limited view we have of them.

    I went back to look, and there's a part where they show the balloons at night and you can see someone firing a gun somewhere around 1:18. The animation makes it look they they might have pulled on a bolt handle to open an extracting port. It's hard to see the gun though, but it looks like it still has a flintlock or striking hammer on in and I don't see a bolt opening anywhere, so I really don't know. It's possible the Gun is just art design Spaghetti nonsense that's just trying to look interesting or cool.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,426
    gladonos said:

    Wait, do they really have bolt action rifles? Where is that at in the trailer? If so, yes, that is absolutely appealing to the Chinese market. That is total China wank.

    I think they are more interested in Dragon Lady with white hair than a mere wooden stick
  • united84united84 Registered Users Posts: 1,065
    gladonos said:

    Wait, do they really have bolt action rifles? Where is that at in the trailer? If so, yes, that is absolutely appealing to the Chinese market. That is total China wank.

    For a video game, bolt action rifle isn't really OP or impressive. I mean, the Empire did have laser beams which is way more futuristic and Bret's probably has the best royal air force in the game.

    Stop being salty mate lol.
  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 107
    The empire is the strongest nation in the setting according to GW even more so then Cathay. Cathay just got some regions that defend the soft parts of the empire it seems. Empire every village has milita and state troops to defend it. Issue is the empire is disunited Cathay doesnt seem to be at the same lvl
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 5,414

    The empire is the strongest nation in the setting according to GW even more so then Cathay. Cathay just got some regions that defend the soft parts of the empire it seems. Empire every village has milita and state troops to defend it. Issue is the empire is disunited Cathay doesnt seem to be at the same lvl

    They don't defend each other, to far to care. They trade extremely long distance but they hold their own on their own.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 959
    united84 said:

    gladonos said:

    Wait, do they really have bolt action rifles? Where is that at in the trailer? If so, yes, that is absolutely appealing to the Chinese market. That is total China wank.

    For a video game, bolt action rifle isn't really OP or impressive. I mean, the Empire did have laser beams which is way more futuristic and Bret's probably has the best royal air force in the game.

    Stop being salty mate lol.
    They don't really have lasers though. The Luminark is just a light wizard casting spells through a lens. Everyone has Wizards. Well also have too see how air power stacks up when the game releases.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • gladonosgladonos Registered Users Posts: 717
    united84 said:

    gladonos said:

    Wait, do they really have bolt action rifles? Where is that at in the trailer? If so, yes, that is absolutely appealing to the Chinese market. That is total China wank.

    For a video game, bolt action rifle isn't really OP or impressive. I mean, the Empire did have laser beams which is way more futuristic and Bret's probably has the best royal air force in the game.

    Stop being salty mate lol.
    I cringed very hard reading this.

    Flying horses and energy bolts are magic nonesense. I don't care about that. Bolt actions are insanely advanced. If they can make a boll action that means they have milling and lathing... They should have industrialization. Also they are more advanced then **** dwarfs now... Jesus...
  • GrimmShadoGrimmShado Registered Users Posts: 34
    Until we get a full roster reveal and some stats to compare, it's all up in the air. But this is how I perceive Cathay atm:
    -chaffy frontline with a few elite units sprinkled in
    -quite a bit of firepower
    -little in the way of cav, but some mobile units, mostly in the air
    -some monster support
    -a handful of magic lores
    -powerful, versatile lords who provide both melee and magic.

    I could be way off (the whole balance mechanic is still a wild card) , but I find the empire comparison unwarranted. It frankly gives me more of a vampire coast vibe, if anything. And even that feels forced.

    Also, yes, it's a versatile roster, like Kislev and like the empire. Or the high elves or tomb kings. It's the current design philosophy. Pure one-trick-pony factions haven't been a thing since game 1.
  • gorgos96gorgos96 Member Registered Users Posts: 379
    gladonos said:

    Wait, do they really have bolt action rifles? Where is that at in the trailer? If so, yes, that is absolutely appealing to the Chinese market. That is total China wank.

    In the trailer watch closely the scene where Cathay women soldiers fire at furies and disc riders. They are using bolt action rifles.
  • gorgos96gorgos96 Member Registered Users Posts: 379

    Until we get a full roster reveal and some stats to compare, it's all up in the air. But this is how I perceive Cathay atm:
    -chaffy frontline with a few elite units sprinkled in
    -quite a bit of firepower
    -little in the way of cav, but some mobile units, mostly in the air
    -some monster support
    -a handful of magic lores
    -powerful, versatile lords who provide both melee and magic.

    I could be way off (the whole balance mechanic is still a wild card) , but I find the empire comparison unwarranted. It frankly gives me more of a vampire coast vibe, if anything. And even that feels forced.

    Also, yes, it's a versatile roster, like Kislev and like the empire. Or the high elves or tomb kings. It's the current design philosophy. Pure one-trick-pony factions haven't been a thing since game 1.

    Im sure no one necessarily expects one trick ponies but rather factions with sharp weaknesses. Cathay so far doesnt look like it has any. They have both light cav and heavy cav btw. Doesnt matter if their heavy cav cant defeat demi knights, they still have armored knights.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 30,065
    gorgos96 said:

    Until we get a full roster reveal and some stats to compare, it's all up in the air. But this is how I perceive Cathay atm:
    -chaffy frontline with a few elite units sprinkled in
    -quite a bit of firepower
    -little in the way of cav, but some mobile units, mostly in the air
    -some monster support
    -a handful of magic lores
    -powerful, versatile lords who provide both melee and magic.

    I could be way off (the whole balance mechanic is still a wild card) , but I find the empire comparison unwarranted. It frankly gives me more of a vampire coast vibe, if anything. And even that feels forced.

    Also, yes, it's a versatile roster, like Kislev and like the empire. Or the high elves or tomb kings. It's the current design philosophy. Pure one-trick-pony factions haven't been a thing since game 1.

    Im sure no one necessarily expects one trick ponies but rather factions with sharp weaknesses. Cathay so far doesnt look like it has any. They have both light cav and heavy cav btw. Doesnt matter if their heavy cav cant defeat demi knights, they still have armored knights.
    From what CA's said they're defensive and rely on units working together in close proximity.

    That alone tells you their weaknesses.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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