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I'm hugely disappointed by Historical Mode.

Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Registered Users Posts: 4,247
edited September 2021 in General Discussion
Before I start, I should point out that I'm not a "historical purist" concerned with minute historical details by any means, and I loved the "Truth Behind The Myth" approach and CA Sofia's take on the various myths and legends of the time.
The only thing I didn't like was the single-entity heroes and units, and fantastical abilities and splash-attacks. They always felt too much like a MOBA to me, and that's not what got me into the TW games. I was looking forward to Historical Mode solely because of the addition of Bodyguards and the removal or reworking of the abilities to be more grounded or believable, in the hope that the battles would be more focused on tactics and maneuvering rather than who can spam the most abilities the quickest (yes, I'm an Armchair General who likes to feel like a tactical genius when he trounces Normal-difficulty Battle AI. Sue me).

I was really looking forward to Historical Mode, but having spent the last few days playing through an Agamemnon campaign, I have to say, I'm hugely disappointed in the mode. It's a repeat of what happened with 3K's Records Mode; a stripped-down, barebones alternative that plays second-fiddle to the fantasy mode.

In Troy's case, that "stripping-down" somehow seems even more extreme. I was a bit disappointed about the removal of units like the Minotaur and Cyclops (compared to, say, reworking them as small bands of highly-elite units for Historical mode), but I could understand why it was done, and it was a minor gripe of mine at the time. But the complete removal of all mythic units - Harpies, Centaurs, Giants, etc. - completely removes what gave Troy a unique feel and made it stand out for me. The removal of all unique landmarks, buildings, and Epic Agents in the campaign also seems like overkill.
What's even more disappointing is seeing Historical Mode gets nothing other than Generals' Bodyguards to make up for the removal of so much other stuff; it feels to me like trading in 4 or 5 unique features for 1 older one.
At the very least, the addition of some new units unique to Historical Mode would have made it an easier pill to swallow, especially when you see that Mythos Mode got several new units added. Instead, the mode just feels very generic, like I'm playing Medieval 2 with a new skin or something.

While I'm fairly happy with the reworking of Heroes' Skills, I'm seeing more than a few instances (and obvious ones at that) that makes it seem like it was a rush job; ranged heroes are so limited in their bodyguard options that at a certain level, you don't even get two options; other's can still unlock and equip a Chariot Ancillary, even though their bodyguard is composed of all infantry units.

I dunno'... I could go on, but to be honest, my interest just isn't there anymore. There's so much cool stuff and potential in Troy, but try as I might, I just can't bring myself to be excited about it anymore. I've no interest in Mythos Mode - although I'm happy for the folks who wanted that mode - but I was going to buy it just to support the game. But after playing Historical Mode, I feel like Troy - and the Total War series - is going down a route that I just don't find fun.

Comments

  • Ulfhedinn_Ulfhedinn_ Registered Users Posts: 254
    Besides the bodyguards there is nothing in the historical mode that cannot be added to the other modes as well.
    Historical mode will always be a simplified version.
  • shattishatti Registered Users Posts: 753

    Besides the bodyguards there is nothing in the historical mode that cannot be added to the other modes as well.
    Historical mode will always be a simplified version.

    Not true at all
    I believe that “the focus of the game design” is what determines which mod will be the intruder.
    U can’t put rainbow sprinkles on an authentic traditional italian pasta. It will not fit

    Excuse my cheesey english speech
    ____________________________Total War: Three Kingdoms mods______________________________
    -Records Mod: Classic Total War https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2229620309
    -Court Actions & Politics https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2525984504
    -Big Dong https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2585802057&searchtext=

  • Cyrus_550Cyrus_550 Registered Users Posts: 50
    This was to be expected though. You have to realize that this game was built on the Warhammer engine and so was always going to be monster focused (as that version of the engine was developed primarily for that and not as an optimal version of engine for a historical only game). I think some historical fans were putting unfair expectations on Troy (a saga title built on the Warhammer engine) to meet their historical total war needs. I would wait for the announcement of the next mainline title (built on its own version of the engine) to pass judgement on whether or not they have completely abandoned classic historical titles
  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Registered Users Posts: 4,247
    Cyrus_550 said:

    This was to be expected though. You have to realize that this game was built on the Warhammer engine and so was always going to be monster focused (as that version of the engine was developed primarily for that and not as an optimal version of engine for a historical only game). I think some historical fans were putting unfair expectations on Troy (a saga title built on the Warhammer engine) to meet their historical total war needs. I would wait for the announcement of the next mainline title (built on its own version of the engine) to pass judgement on whether or not they have completely abandoned classic historical titles

    Realize what exactly? "It's built off the Warhammer engine, so it can't be made into a historical game" is a bizarre argument considering they literally just added an entirely new "historically"-focused game mode that has no monsters.

    Anyway, my expectations for Historical Mode weren't unrealistic to begin with. I would have been perfectly happy if they had just added a toggle button to "Truth Behind The Myth" Mode on the campaign selection screen that simply swapped single-entity heroes with a hero-and-bodyguard unit, swapped skill trees and abilities to the current setup in Historical Mode, and changed the single-entity Cyclops and Minotaur into a small-sized elite unit of say 40 men with tweaked stats or something. Everything else in "Truth Behind The Myth" could have stayed the same.
    But that's my personal preference, and I know I'm probably in the minority.

    The thing that disappoints me the most is how the historical mode (or "Classic Mode" as I tend to refer to it) ended up getting the very-short end of the stick in this update compared to Mythos mode. Sure, Historical Mode is free, while Mythos is where the meat and potatoes are, but it makes me feel like the classic style battles of older TW games is steadily getting more and more sidelined in favor of single-entity units and fantastical abilities.

    Yeah, it's probably too early to start worrying that CA is ditching the "Classic Modes" altogether. But it does make me wonder if CA is going to continue to push this "two separate games modes" in future games; a "Classic Mode" and a "Heroic Mode", like Records Mode and Romance Mode in 3K. And given how both Records Mode in 3K and now Historical Mode in Troy both have gotten comparatively little support and development compared to their fantasy mode counterparts, I am a bit concerned that trend is going to continue and get more pronounced.
  • Ares101Ares101 Registered Users Posts: 254

    Besides the bodyguards there is nothing in the historical mode that cannot be added to the other modes as well.
    Historical mode will always be a simplified version.

    I wondered why they didn't replaced the fantasy abilities with something more grounded like a buff. We had motivate or battle cry in Rome 2. That was totally fine, but they didn't gave us that in 3K as well. That's just lazy and showing that they don't care. Removing all that units, cutting stuf and changing the colour of the map is something a modder does in a day or two...
  • Vin362Vin362 Registered Users Posts: 1,491
    I said this in another thread and I'll repeat here if there was no Truth Behind the Myth or Mythos mode and historical mode was the only mode we had would it still have been lacking?

    That being said there is still a chance CA could change something Historical mode is still new so I wouldn't write it off completely.
    Supporter of Shu-Han, I wish Total War Three Kingdoms had a Three Kingdoms start date, rider of Kislev, admiral of The Awakened and Elector Count of Shu-Han
  • toskyruntoskyrun Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 612
    I have often written on the subject: in my dreams the historical campaign had to look a lot like a bronze age total war, I wrote a post about it.
    for me the historical version was not limited to a few changes to the battle level, but had to propose a different campaign, with slightly different mechanics: things like a council of war or giving degrees to the subordinates, trying to become "king of kings" Achaean , or king of troy I don't know.

    anyway, i'm playing a historical campaign with diomedes and i'm having a lot of fun. he's a hero with very "human" mechanics like supremacy or hero training, the right man for a historic campaign
  • ESKEHLESKEHL Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 518
    edited September 2021
    I think that Troy in it self actually took a wrong turn when it used WH-engine and gameplay loop, instead of just using the excellent advantages of the Three Kingdoms engine and gameplay loop.

    I have bought Mythos primarily because I wanted to buy the whole package with all DLC's on steam so I bought that too, but I have not played it yet. But the little I have played of Troy in historical mode is OK. It is not great, but OK. The battles in historical mode is for me at least what I have come to expect from a historical TW-game. My beef with Troy is with it´s campaign. It is sort of like the experience when I first started playing Rome II at release, and not minding talking about the bugs, but just the fact that alot I was expecting to be in the game, was in fact cut from the campaign gameplay. I can't help but feeling it's watered down version of what could have been.

    Both Three Kingdoms and Troy builds on ancient texts at the core of both eastern and western culture. Both are character-driven stories. I have never played Three Kingdoms in Romance-mode, and I think that it´s a perfect game with it´s diplomacy etc as it is in Records mode. It depicts so well when a faction is primarily a ruler, and not a kingdom. That would have worked excellently, I think, in a Illiad setting in TW: Troy. But now we'll never know.

    For me, that is the biggest loss with Troy, that CA didn´t go for a Three Kingdoms game in Homer´s Illiad setting. They would basically have had to repeat the gameplay from for example Mandate of Heaven but in a new setting to get the Trojan war right, and with more barter economy and add a Romance and Records mode. That would have been a awesome TW-game for me.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,818
    edited September 2021
    The issue (and let me get this straight it's probably the #1 problem a design team can face right now) is that every player has a different "sensibility" regarding on what a TW should be/offer but it's not easy to implement options.

    We basically have three "big" philosophies : No-nonsense historical (which don't want SEM and no mythical units - typically don't want CA to stray from what was actually used in the era), Full-on fantasy (don't mind superheroes, loads of fantasy units that can be really fancy & taking liberties with the timeline) and the ones in the middle which are by all means and purposes "Moderates", people seeking balance between the roots of TW (which is battles driven by units, not by heroic actions) and what makes TW popular (again the fancy stuff).

    Now that middle group is very hard to please imho because it's where the opinions are the most "varied", and I believe there's a frank division of its own when it comes to the generals/heroes. Which is why customizable bodyguards as its been done as TROY was a nice step (No, really, give them credit for that) BUT there's no denying that the best way to implement the enabling/disabling of certain features on the long run should be through pre-campaign-start toggles. (A bit like RTWR toggles you know ?)

    Of course the core of the problem lies on how balanced things go around each others when certain toggles are ticked and others are not. It requires thought, thinking, balancing and tinkering. Aka, it's effort for both player (as people typically want a plug-n-play experience so having easy big modes to go to is the best for the majority of the people) & developper. Plus that investment is only going to go toward directly pleasing a (vocal) minority.
    _________________________________

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    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

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  • ESKEHLESKEHL Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 518
    @Rewan
    For me, I´m in the middleground between No-nonsense historical and the moderates. And Troy will always be part unhistorical because no-one knows anything from the timeperiod.

    But as I said above, it is a missed opportunity that Troy was based on Warhammer and not on Three Kingdoms. A Troy game inspired by the Three kingdoms grand campaign, would have been a huge step forward in the same way Three Kingdoms was. Instead CA opted to go with the same interface, style and gamelay mechanics that has been in TW-games since Rome II. There is however some faction specific mechanics but it does not offset that CA opted to go with something that is familiar, rather than something that is innovative...

    That is just my opinion. And perhaps that is the problem with Saga-titles also.

  • Toiox43uqToiox43uq Registered Users Posts: 146
    Its early on ...let us wait and see where the programmers go with Historical mode

    While Troy the city exist ....Helen could be myth or does it represent the women slave trade ......we know the Thracians where after red heads with green eyes, maybe the Greeks where after the blue eyed women , which is known to originate with the black sea circassians

    Anyway.....maybe the historical should be aimed at a trade and economy war .

    just one of my opinions
  • Paddy234Paddy234 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 483

    Before I start, I should point out that I'm not a "historical purist" concerned with minute historical details by any means, and I loved the "Truth Behind The Myth" approach and CA Sofia's take on the various myths and legends of the time.
    The only thing I didn't like was the single-entity heroes and units, and fantastical abilities and splash-attacks. They always felt too much like a MOBA to me, and that's not what got me into the TW games. I was looking forward to Historical Mode solely because of the addition of Bodyguards and the removal or reworking of the abilities to be more grounded or believable, in the hope that the battles would be more focused on tactics and maneuvering rather than who can spam the most abilities the quickest (yes, I'm an Armchair General who likes to feel like a tactical genius when he trounces Normal-difficulty Battle AI. Sue me).

    I was really looking forward to Historical Mode, but having spent the last few days playing through an Agamemnon campaign, I have to say, I'm hugely disappointed in the mode. It's a repeat of what happened with 3K's Records Mode; a stripped-down, barebones alternative that plays second-fiddle to the fantasy mode.

    In Troy's case, that "stripping-down" somehow seems even more extreme. I was a bit disappointed about the removal of units like the Minotaur and Cyclops (compared to, say, reworking them as small bands of highly-elite units for Historical mode), but I could understand why it was done, and it was a minor gripe of mine at the time. But the complete removal of all mythic units - Harpies, Centaurs, Giants, etc. - completely removes what gave Troy a unique feel and made it stand out for me. The removal of all unique landmarks, buildings, and Epic Agents in the campaign also seems like overkill.
    What's even more disappointing is seeing Historical Mode gets nothing other than Generals' Bodyguards to make up for the removal of so much other stuff; it feels to me like trading in 4 or 5 unique features for 1 older one.
    At the very least, the addition of some new units unique to Historical Mode would have made it an easier pill to swallow, especially when you see that Mythos Mode got several new units added. Instead, the mode just feels very generic, like I'm playing Medieval 2 with a new skin or something.

    While I'm fairly happy with the reworking of Heroes' Skills, I'm seeing more than a few instances (and obvious ones at that) that makes it seem like it was a rush job; ranged heroes are so limited in their bodyguard options that at a certain level, you don't even get two options; other's can still unlock and equip a Chariot Ancillary, even though their bodyguard is composed of all infantry units.

    I dunno'... I could go on, but to be honest, my interest just isn't there anymore. There's so much cool stuff and potential in Troy, but try as I might, I just can't bring myself to be excited about it anymore. I've no interest in Mythos Mode - although I'm happy for the folks who wanted that mode - but I was going to buy it just to support the game. But after playing Historical Mode, I feel like Troy - and the Total War series - is going down a route that I just don't find fun.

    I feel the same. The problem is maybe we are a dying breed. A lot of people seem to like the arcadey direction Total War is going
  • Lotor12Lotor12 Registered Users Posts: 903
    Well, I do not understand, what did You expect;
    maybe it does not sound big in theory , to remove single entity units, and replace them with "classic" general unit with bodyguards is completely changing the battles in practice, and in the way, that I wanted - closer to classic TW... and that is it

    Do not understand , what is "simplified" in historical mode,

    @Vin362 made very good point- just ignore the Truth behind Myth and Mythos modes, and the Troy is far more complex and interesting than Shogun2 or Rome2

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