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Fall & get up mechanic of foot heroes

Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 208
Currently foot lords/heroes can be knocked. They usually fly a couple of meters and then land somewhere - then they stay laying down on the ground for a couple of seconds and get up eventually.

The problem of this mechanic is that they can not be hurt during the time when they lay at the ground i.e. it acts as a 100% damage resistance which is illogical.

I would propose adding a MA/MD/Speed debuff for the same duration that they were knocked and immune i.e. if a foot lord was knocked and he spent 3.5 seconds flying and staying at the ground then he should receive -X% MA/MD/Speed debuff when he gets up for the same 3.5 seconds.


Foot lords and heroes could receive a price tweak across the board to account for this however.
Ranked top#20 mp

Comments

  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 605
    edited September 20
    They should just get rid out totally of knockdown damage immunity.
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  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 740
    edited September 20
    I don’t know this functionally means foot lords would never be viable its been brought up before but given foot lords already are heavily subject to bullying I don’t see how this is a good idea.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,672
    Thats exactly the point of this mechanic, they get reduced dmg but at same time they not dealing dmg, its a bit of a trade off some % of knockdowns here and there can be looked at but overall seems quite reasnable.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited September 20
    Knockdown needs to be completely removed. Only dead models should get knockdown animations at all.
    Knockdown has added nothing but constant malaise to the game.
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 208

    Thats exactly the point of this mechanic, they get reduced dmg but at same time they not dealing dmg, its a bit of a trade off some % of knockdowns here and there can be looked at but overall seems quite reasnable.

    Even though it's really a tradeoff I would not call it a "balanced" tradeoff - it favors the foot unit in most cases.

    Rarely you can see a situation where foot unit charges it's enemy... and gets knocked so that it loses damage output potential.

    In most cases it's just a huge monster charging on a poor footguy and the latter gets immunity to damage for free in a situation where its mounted version would just die easily.

    The illogical thing here is that knockdown is a POSITIVE effect for the unit which is being knocked.
    Ranked top#20 mp
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565
    this would completely screw over a lot of lords because of the Lords that can abuse being on the ground, like the fey enchantress, what could be is to give a tag for foot lords that are supposed to be squishy so they can get debuffs for it, but lords like ungrim would just be further put into the trash if they got punished for the enemy doing something to then they don't want to have happen in the first place
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    Thats exactly the point of this mechanic, they get reduced dmg but at same time they not dealing dmg, its a bit of a trade off some % of knockdowns here and there can be looked at but overall seems quite reasnable.

    Even though it's really a tradeoff I would not call it a "balanced" tradeoff - it favors the foot unit in most cases.

    Rarely you can see a situation where foot unit charges it's enemy... and gets knocked so that it loses damage output potential.

    In most cases it's just a huge monster charging on a poor footguy and the latter gets immunity to damage for free in a situation where its mounted version would just die easily.

    The illogical thing here is that knockdown is a POSITIVE effect for the unit which is being knocked.
    the problem is that knockdown still isn't as good as the mount is most times, almost every character that gets a mount option will almost always take it, because avoiding the monster is the far better scenario for squishy units, and the fighters that fight only on foot can't catch the thing so if it fights them the monster should be at a disadvantage
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,672

    Thats exactly the point of this mechanic, they get reduced dmg but at same time they not dealing dmg, its a bit of a trade off some % of knockdowns here and there can be looked at but overall seems quite reasnable.

    Even though it's really a tradeoff I would not call it a "balanced" tradeoff - it favors the foot unit in most cases.

    Rarely you can see a situation where foot unit charges it's enemy... and gets knocked so that it loses damage output potential.

    In most cases it's just a huge monster charging on a poor footguy and the latter gets immunity to damage for free in a situation where its mounted version would just die easily.

    The illogical thing here is that knockdown is a POSITIVE effect for the unit which is being knocked.
    Well you need to consider that mounted charecters are faster so they more often than not get to choose and hit the targets they want, if mounted was always favoured in terms of dmg and less reistance than foot what would be ever the point of foot characters that got access to mount?

    It took CA very long time to get to a reasonable spot which i do feel is not as quite a lot of foot options are viable now while so are most mount options. I see no reason risking this other than when it comes to "fighter" foot charecters who should be more like dwarven ones and not get knocked over as much.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,250
    Even dwarf characters can still get stunlocked to death by monsters with erratic animations like big spiders and mammoths. So woe to the rest if they lack 4 legs.

    Stegadon however - courtesy of a massive thread to its name - does not seem to be doing it as much as before; the lab rat Ungrim can bring it down to 30% HP reliably if the thing decides to stay in the fight, and accrue something like a respectable 800g value before dying which was impossible in the days of constant ragdoll. Even Orion was getting manhandled.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,958

    Even dwarf characters can still get stunlocked to death by monsters with erratic animations like big spiders and mammoths. So woe to the rest if they lack 4 legs.

    I somehow doubt that, all dwarf characters have 75%+ hit reactions ignore chance, most have 85%. Meanwhile, Tyrion on Malhandhir has 60%.

    About the topic though, knockdowns of single entities are now fully controlled by knock interrupts ignore chance and here characters have 20 (mages), 40 (melee heroes, vanilla melee lords), or 80% (melee legendary lords + dwarfs) to ignore, roughly. I find this much too coarse grained, I'd much prefer melee lords to have 50-75% ignore chance, rather than 40 or 80.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 208
    edited September 21

    if mounted was always favoured in terms of dmg and less reistance than foot what would be ever the point of foot characters that got access to mount?


    Price.

    Ranked top#20 mp
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 208

    knockdowns of single entities are now fully controlled by knock interrupts ignore chance and here characters have 20 (mages), 40 (melee heroes, vanilla melee lords), or 80% (melee legendary lords + dwarfs) to ignore, roughly.

    So squishy mages get a free "extra 3 seconds of immunity" in 8 of 10 cases.

    Ranked top#20 mp
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 270

    Thats exactly the point of this mechanic, they get reduced dmg but at same time they not dealing dmg, its a bit of a trade off some % of knockdowns here and there can be looked at but overall seems quite reasnable.

    The problem is not for combat foot lords but for squishy mages that often tank a 3k monster combat lord on charge. There are some crazy cases where a 400 mage occupies a 3.5k Dragon lord for several minutes before taking notable damage, despite being completely out of position and alone.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 740
    I mean technically removing knockdown would get rid of the need for ground invincibility but than I think people would complain about how melee foot lord are just allowed to escape through near by units.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    I mean technically removing knockdown would get rid of the need for ground invincibility but than I think people would complain about how melee foot lord are just allowed to escape through near by units.

    I hardly see how that would become a complaint, mounted lords escape through there friendly infantry all the time for lords just often get sent flying out of there men and have to awkwardly wade through them to get back to hitting, even if you want them gone a lord on pretty much anything would have gotten out faster anyway
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,958
    There would be much grief from summoned manticores ganking foot mages extremely quickly.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,250

    There would be much grief from summoned manticores ganking foot mages extremely quickly.

    If that is a problem then let the balancing evolve from there rather than preserving a crooked system. And honestly a Manticore should butcher an unprotected mage in seconds.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 740



    I hardly see how that would become a complaint, mounted lords escape through there friendly infantry all the time for lords just often get sent flying out of there men and have to awkwardly wade through them to get back to hitting, even if you want them gone a lord on pretty much anything would have gotten out faster anyway

    My point was mostly just that isolating footlords would be way harder.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 270

    There would be much grief from summoned manticores ganking foot mages extremely quickly.

    If only mages had access to horse, pegasus or even manticore mounts, oh wait, they do!

    The knockdowns add another layer of unnecessary RNG. Sometimes a foot mage will not get insta knocked over and die in 2-3 hits and sometimes they take 5 knockdowns in a row without damage. Pure luck without any skill.

    At the very least, knockdowns on heroes and lords should only be possible upon landing a successful hit. Seen tomb scorpion charge markus wulfhart 5 times, knocking him backwards 10m each time but not actually landing a single hit. Not acceptable...
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,935

    if mounted was always favoured in terms of dmg and less reistance than foot what would be ever the point of foot characters that got access to mount?


    Price.

    Yes with prices like 1600 for a useless character so much gold saved.

    If going cheap is the way then look for generic lords to fill that niche and even than not every faction should come with a super cheap lord option asymmetric balance and all that.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,958
    ThisIsREM said:

    There would be much grief from summoned manticores ganking foot mages extremely quickly.

    If only mages had access to horse, pegasus or even manticore mounts, oh wait, they do!

    The knockdowns add another layer of unnecessary RNG. Sometimes a foot mage will not get insta knocked over and die in 2-3 hits and sometimes they take 5 knockdowns in a row without damage. Pure luck without any skill.

    At the very least, knockdowns on heroes and lords should only be possible upon landing a successful hit. Seen tomb scorpion charge markus wulfhart 5 times, knocking him backwards 10m each time but not actually landing a single hit. Not acceptable...
    Just saying.... People would cry their hearts out.... And for the record not all mages have mounts.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Can those clinging to the knockdown nonsense can name any upsides to it? Name enough upsides to compensate for its myriad downsides that is.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 270
    Uagrim said:

    if mounted was always favoured in terms of dmg and less reistance than foot what would be ever the point of foot characters that got access to mount?


    Price.

    Yes with prices like 1600 for a useless character so much gold saved.

    If going cheap is the way then look for generic lords to fill that niche and even than not every faction should come with a super cheap lord option asymmetric balance and all that.
    Obviously you may need to balance out the prices together with the change to knockdowns. Increase costs of mounts and decrease of foot characters to compensate where needed.
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 208
    ThisIsREM said:


    The knockdowns add another layer of unnecessary RNG. Sometimes a foot mage will not get insta knocked over and die in 2-3 hits and sometimes they take 5 knockdowns in a row without damage. Pure luck without any skill.

    Yes exactly, I would avoid this type of randomness in a "strategy" game
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  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 208

    I mean technically removing knockdown would get rid of the need for ground invincibility but than I think people would complain about how melee foot lord are just allowed to escape through near by units.

    I would not be in favor of scrapping this mechanic altogether. It is cool, it looks cool. Seeing a monster throwing models 15m away on charge is epic... the problem here is that the monster is doing them a favor instead of getting advantage from doing what it is supposed to do.

    A hero can take a hit and fly 15m away - fine, it looks cool at least
    A hero can take a hit without receiving damage and then fly 15m away - it's weird but... okay
    A hero can do this 10 times in a row thus wasting almost a minute of your time allowing it's friends to cover him - that's wrong. Let the hero suffer some penalties after this fall at least.
    Ranked top#20 mp
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    I mean technically removing knockdown would get rid of the need for ground invincibility but than I think people would complain about how melee foot lord are just allowed to escape through near by units.

    I would not be in favor of scrapping this mechanic altogether. It is cool, it looks cool. Seeing a monster throwing models 15m away on charge is epic... the problem here is that the monster is doing them a favor instead of getting advantage from doing what it is supposed to do.

    A hero can take a hit and fly 15m away - fine, it looks cool at least
    A hero can take a hit without receiving damage and then fly 15m away - it's weird but... okay
    A hero can do this 10 times in a row thus wasting almost a minute of your time allowing it's friends to cover him - that's wrong. Let the hero suffer some penalties after this fall at least.
    It doesn't look cool, it's looney tunes level nonsense. A horse or large monster running into you won't send you flying across the battlefield, you'll get trampled underfoot instead.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,250
    edited September 22

    Even dwarf characters can still get stunlocked to death by monsters with erratic animations like big spiders and mammoths. So woe to the rest if they lack 4 legs.

    I somehow doubt that, all dwarf characters have 75%+ hit reactions ignore chance, most have 85%. Meanwhile, Tyrion on Malhandhir has 60%.
    Yes "stunlock" was an exaggeration, you were right to call me a filthy liar. Just meant that it can be significant enough to change the outcome of the combat greatly.

    Also here, eXpErT ChArgE dEfEnSe doing work :mrgreen:

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited September 22
    Why WH's knockdown mechanic is highly problematic:

    1.It's style over substance. Cartoony style over substance at that

    2.It's not connected to any damage dealt. A unit can get knocked away but not lose any HP over it, so the visuals don't match what's actually happening

    3.Whether a unit can be knocked down depends solely on whether the unit stands on two or more legs, not on the unit's weight or assumed stability. A puny dog can never be knocked down, a lithe damsel on a pony can never be knocked down, but a heavily armored mount of flesh, muscle and bone like Grimgor can. This is completely unintuitive

    4.Support characters gain additional survivability while melee-focussed characters have their ability to influence the battle further crippled, either because they spend the battle eating dirt or because they knocked a target out of reach

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