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Rewrite Cathay to Reduce the Mary Sue

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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,907
    Itharus said:

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    And if they don't cherish it they're killed.

    They were also at civil war but once a non dragon took control they brutally crushed it.
    Where's it pointed out that they are killed if they don't bow and scrape? Was it an old source or new?
    "present, and very powerful rulers. They are treated by the people with the reverence such beings deserve and speaking ill of them, especially if you are not native to Grand Cathay, is a quick way to get yourself killed"

    Killing people for speaking ill of the rulers is pretty damn brutal.

    I think the darker side should be explored but for a start it's certainly okay. It's one single short piece.
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  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,716
    incessant raids and insidious infiltration

    Some whisper in the dark that the current Dragon Emperor is immortal, but most Cathayans treat him with such reverence that speaking ill of him, especially if you are not native to Grand Cathay, is a quick way to get yourself killed.

    the obligations for Harmony are frequently ignored by nobles and even members of the Imperial Household, which has led to tyrants attaining power, and the nobility serving their own interests ahead of acting as founts of wisdom and guiding the lower classes.

    For outsiders, it is a realm of infinite riches and pleasures unknown, seemingly immune from the endless terrors that prowl the outside world. While this is far from the truth
    ò_ó
  • Total War Fan #2Total War Fan #2 Registered Users Posts: 1,518


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,633
    I mean I actually like the idea of this different, powerfull and rich nation lead by demi gods. Bright empire, but deep down, trouble is rising and is a constant treath. Gives you a little more to fight for.

    Plus a huge empire of small humans lead by a couple of basically divine dragons is dark in its own ways
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,716


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future
    Perhaps yet darker days may be on the horizon. Events the world over are conspiring to require the attention of even these isolationists. Hobgoblins amass beyond the Great Bastion like never before. Immortal eunuch sorcerers drink the souls of men and bind their corpses to their will, seducing the populace with the promise of immortality. Rebellion and squabbles between local factions are reaching new heights within the Empire, at the heart of which beats the corrosive will of Tzeentch.
    ò_ó
  • Total War Fan #2Total War Fan #2 Registered Users Posts: 1,518


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
  • Total War Fan #2Total War Fan #2 Registered Users Posts: 1,518


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
  • Total War Fan #2Total War Fan #2 Registered Users Posts: 1,518


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
    It's hard to care about their civil war because we never know the effects of it to their country. We never know how many lives are lost in it. We never know what the stakes are depending on what faction would have won.
    Guess what other factions have civil wars too. Nobody cares about elector civil wars because the winner just becomes emperor in the end. The greatest civil war being one between the elves that resulted in the desolation of nagarythe and the creation of perhaps the most sadistic and evil faction in the world of warhammer barring chaos worshippers.

    And with regards to the great maw, well what of it? Sure it made ogres the ravenous brutes that they are today but seriously, do you even consider ogres a legitimate threat? Heck often times they were considered far more beneficial to the races of Order in times of need as long as they were paid and fed.
    If they really wanted to expand on the wrongs Cathay did, they would have mentioned that the creation of the great maw led to the exodus that caused the ogres to destroy the sky titan civilization but they never bothered with that even.
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
    It's hard to care about their civil war because we never know the effects of it to their country. We never know how many lives are lost in it. We never know what the stakes are depending on what faction would have won.
    Guess what other factions have civil wars too. Nobody cares about elector civil wars because the winner just becomes emperor in the end. The greatest civil war being one between the elves that resulted in the desolation of nagarythe and the creation of perhaps the most sadistic and evil faction in the world of warhammer barring chaos worshippers.

    And with regards to the great maw, well what of it? Sure it made ogres the ravenous brutes that they are today but seriously, do you even consider ogres a legitimate threat? Heck often times they were considered far more beneficial to the races of Order in times of need as long as they were paid and fed.
    If they really wanted to expand on the wrongs Cathay did, they would have mentioned that the creation of the great maw led to the exodus that caused the ogres to destroy the sky titan civilization but they never bothered with that even.
    It's almost as if this is the debut of an entire faction that only just now got anything more than a lore blurb in some obscure RPG books. It's like we're going to see more details about these events and places for the first time in decades since they were first mentioned.

    I know people hate being told "wait and see", but you need to just wait and see.
  • Total War Fan #2Total War Fan #2 Registered Users Posts: 1,518


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
    It's hard to care about their civil war because we never know the effects of it to their country. We never know how many lives are lost in it. We never know what the stakes are depending on what faction would have won.
    Guess what other factions have civil wars too. Nobody cares about elector civil wars because the winner just becomes emperor in the end. The greatest civil war being one between the elves that resulted in the desolation of nagarythe and the creation of perhaps the most sadistic and evil faction in the world of warhammer barring chaos worshippers.

    And with regards to the great maw, well what of it? Sure it made ogres the ravenous brutes that they are today but seriously, do you even consider ogres a legitimate threat? Heck often times they were considered far more beneficial to the races of Order in times of need as long as they were paid and fed.
    If they really wanted to expand on the wrongs Cathay did, they would have mentioned that the creation of the great maw led to the exodus that caused the ogres to destroy the sky titan civilization but they never bothered with that even.
    It's almost as if this is the debut of an entire faction that only just now got anything more than a lore blurb in some obscure RPG books. It's like we're going to see more details about these events and places for the first time in decades since they were first mentioned.

    I know people hate being told "wait and see", but you need to just wait and see.
    Yeah and I'd rather CA and GW to show off how ugly Cathay is before hand so it is much more satisfying to around their grim position.
    We seriously waited an entire week for CA and GW to tell us most things that we already know and discussed about? Do they no read the forums? I thought they were gathering feedback?
    The siege rework better be mind blowing because I'm not going to wait another week for CA to tell us that the dragon lords are *gasp* ACTUALLY NOT BENEVOLENT AT ALL. Wow, great suspense and writing you people have. Such twist, such thrills. Definitely George RR Martin caliber.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,706


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
    It's hard to care about their civil war because we never know the effects of it to their country. We never know how many lives are lost in it. We never know what the stakes are depending on what faction would have won.
    Guess what other factions have civil wars too. Nobody cares about elector civil wars because the winner just becomes emperor in the end. The greatest civil war being one between the elves that resulted in the desolation of nagarythe and the creation of perhaps the most sadistic and evil faction in the world of warhammer barring chaos worshippers.

    And with regards to the great maw, well what of it? Sure it made ogres the ravenous brutes that they are today but seriously, do you even consider ogres a legitimate threat? Heck often times they were considered far more beneficial to the races of Order in times of need as long as they were paid and fed.
    If they really wanted to expand on the wrongs Cathay did, they would have mentioned that the creation of the great maw led to the exodus that caused the ogres to destroy the sky titan civilization but they never bothered with that even.
    It's almost as if this is the debut of an entire faction that only just now got anything more than a lore blurb in some obscure RPG books. It's like we're going to see more details about these events and places for the first time in decades since they were first mentioned.

    I know people hate being told "wait and see", but you need to just wait and see.
    Yeah and I'd rather CA and GW to show off how ugly Cathay is before hand so it is much more satisfying to around their grim position.
    We seriously waited an entire week for CA and GW to tell us most things that we already know and discussed about? Do they no read the forums? I thought they were gathering feedback?
    The siege rework better be mind blowing because I'm not going to wait another week for CA to tell us that the dragon lords are *gasp* ACTUALLY NOT BENEVOLENT AT ALL. Wow, great suspense and writing you people have. Such twist, such thrills. Definitely George RR Martin caliber.
    Buddy if you're expecting George RR Martin level content , you are definitely in the wrong Wendy's.
  • endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 838
    It's clear how out of place Cathay is shaping up to be. My personal guess is that it is largely due to chasing the Chinese market, which is the hilarious and predictable course of action so many companies take. As if such an obvious dosage of flattery will result in billions in sales to the enormous Chinese population.

    I think the rewrite is far more interesting.

    I've always felt that Cathay must be a very corrupt place. We know that Clan Eshin learned their assassin trade in Nipon. Cathay would hardly be a place of blissful "harmony" in that context. The picture I always held of Cathay is a place that seems outwardly powerful but is inwardly crumbling from corruption, both of the practical variety and the Chaos kind.

    It would have been interesting to have a Jade Vampire variety as dark part of Cathay.

    And finally. Does everyone realize that Cathay treats its peasants better than Bretonnia. Let that sink in...
  • PLHenryPLHenry Registered Users Posts: 1,521
    Kind of entertaining that people are focusing on two tiny words rather than read what I wrote.

    Should’ve given it a better title
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205
    endikux said:

    It's clear how out of place Cathay is shaping up to be. My personal guess is that it is largely due to chasing the Chinese market, which is the hilarious and predictable course of action so many companies take. As if such an obvious dosage of flattery will result in billions in sales to the enormous Chinese population.

    I think the rewrite is far more interesting.

    I've always felt that Cathay must be a very corrupt place. We know that Clan Eshin learned their assassin trade in Nipon. Cathay would hardly be a place of blissful "harmony" in that context. The picture I always held of Cathay is a place that seems outwardly powerful but is inwardly crumbling from corruption, both of the practical variety and the Chaos kind.

    It would have been interesting to have a Jade Vampire variety as dark part of Cathay.

    And finally. Does everyone realize that Cathay treats its peasants better than Bretonnia. Let that sink in...

    People have already pointed out that for what Chinese commentary that exists, they're not amused. Then again, China and Chinese people aren't a monolith, and I wish people would realize that.
  • Total War Fan #2Total War Fan #2 Registered Users Posts: 1,518


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
    It's hard to care about their civil war because we never know the effects of it to their country. We never know how many lives are lost in it. We never know what the stakes are depending on what faction would have won.
    Guess what other factions have civil wars too. Nobody cares about elector civil wars because the winner just becomes emperor in the end. The greatest civil war being one between the elves that resulted in the desolation of nagarythe and the creation of perhaps the most sadistic and evil faction in the world of warhammer barring chaos worshippers.

    And with regards to the great maw, well what of it? Sure it made ogres the ravenous brutes that they are today but seriously, do you even consider ogres a legitimate threat? Heck often times they were considered far more beneficial to the races of Order in times of need as long as they were paid and fed.
    If they really wanted to expand on the wrongs Cathay did, they would have mentioned that the creation of the great maw led to the exodus that caused the ogres to destroy the sky titan civilization but they never bothered with that even.
    It's almost as if this is the debut of an entire faction that only just now got anything more than a lore blurb in some obscure RPG books. It's like we're going to see more details about these events and places for the first time in decades since they were first mentioned.

    I know people hate being told "wait and see", but you need to just wait and see.
    Yeah and I'd rather CA and GW to show off how ugly Cathay is before hand so it is much more satisfying to around their grim position.
    We seriously waited an entire week for CA and GW to tell us most things that we already know and discussed about? Do they no read the forums? I thought they were gathering feedback?
    The siege rework better be mind blowing because I'm not going to wait another week for CA to tell us that the dragon lords are *gasp* ACTUALLY NOT BENEVOLENT AT ALL. Wow, great suspense and writing you people have. Such twist, such thrills. Definitely George RR Martin caliber.
    Buddy if you're expecting George RR Martin level content , you are definitely in the wrong Wendy's.
    I was being sarcastic if it wasn't evident.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,907

    endikux said:

    It's clear how out of place Cathay is shaping up to be. My personal guess is that it is largely due to chasing the Chinese market, which is the hilarious and predictable course of action so many companies take. As if such an obvious dosage of flattery will result in billions in sales to the enormous Chinese population.

    I think the rewrite is far more interesting.

    I've always felt that Cathay must be a very corrupt place. We know that Clan Eshin learned their assassin trade in Nipon. Cathay would hardly be a place of blissful "harmony" in that context. The picture I always held of Cathay is a place that seems outwardly powerful but is inwardly crumbling from corruption, both of the practical variety and the Chaos kind.

    It would have been interesting to have a Jade Vampire variety as dark part of Cathay.

    And finally. Does everyone realize that Cathay treats its peasants better than Bretonnia. Let that sink in...

    People have already pointed out that for what Chinese commentary that exists, they're not amused. Then again, China and Chinese people aren't a monolith, and I wish people would realize that.
    The commentary I've seen so far has been positive.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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  • cat59cat59 Registered Users Posts: 482
    The reason the Order factions are marching into the Realm of Chaos is because of a dying deity. For Kislev everyone assumed it was Ursun, but some people have speculated it to be the Dragon Emperor. Boom, now you have huge issues with civil wars between the siblings popping up again, and the Monkey King is going to be running back in to try and usurp the throne again, plus if Cathay don't find a way to bring him back, they probably lose a great deal of the Great Bastion's protection, if his magic is still powering its wards and such.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,078
    @OP I'm not quite sure about your ideas.

    I kind of like the idea of the Dragon Emperor, if he's handled properly, like Ariel for example.

    What would've been easy is toying with the age of the dragons and the realm itself and its implications. For them a human life should be kinda irrelevant due to it not seeming possible to make any relevant experience or development in such a short timespan. Also the older a state gets, the more inefficient, inflexible and corrupt it gets. With a more entrenched structure and social elite it just gets bad. We can see that in chinese history with a given dynastie becoming increasingly bad until it gets replaced by the next in sort of a periodic cycle.
    To translate to Warhammer you could easily make that about the dragons having established a structure that totally makes sense at the dragons time scale but is utterly inable to react to the challenges brought by rapid human generations and stupidly arbitrary from the perspective of a human lifetime.

    Gosh, I hope what I wrote is understandable and not giberish.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,005
    Pocman said:

    The emperor dragon should have just been... a dragon, morphed as a human.


    A dragon in warhammer standards is powerful and interesting enough without being broken. A dragon god in the other hand is too much.


    They could have added the dragon emperor as a LL, making him as powerful as his son/daughter are going to be.

    They probably won't, but they still can add him as a LL. All that CA would need to do is to create a narrative where the Dragon Emperor starts weakened.
  • ForistaForista Registered Users Posts: 137
    "CA I'm bored, do this, do that."
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Registered Users Posts: 1,403
    edited September 22


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    They're definitely on the decline, the knights of Caledor ride on horses instead of dragons and there is phantom cities in Ulthuan.
    Also, in their army book :
    "Their old enemies have grown stronger, while they in turn have become weaker."
    "Ulthuan can still muster the mightiest fleet in the known world and its armies are rightly feared by its foes, and yet the High Elves are a shadow of their former glory."
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,205


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
    It's hard to care about their civil war because we never know the effects of it to their country. We never know how many lives are lost in it. We never know what the stakes are depending on what faction would have won.
    Guess what other factions have civil wars too. Nobody cares about elector civil wars because the winner just becomes emperor in the end. The greatest civil war being one between the elves that resulted in the desolation of nagarythe and the creation of perhaps the most sadistic and evil faction in the world of warhammer barring chaos worshippers.

    And with regards to the great maw, well what of it? Sure it made ogres the ravenous brutes that they are today but seriously, do you even consider ogres a legitimate threat? Heck often times they were considered far more beneficial to the races of Order in times of need as long as they were paid and fed.
    If they really wanted to expand on the wrongs Cathay did, they would have mentioned that the creation of the great maw led to the exodus that caused the ogres to destroy the sky titan civilization but they never bothered with that even.
    It's almost as if this is the debut of an entire faction that only just now got anything more than a lore blurb in some obscure RPG books. It's like we're going to see more details about these events and places for the first time in decades since they were first mentioned.

    I know people hate being told "wait and see", but you need to just wait and see.
    Yeah and I'd rather CA and GW to show off how ugly Cathay is before hand so it is much more satisfying to around their grim position.
    We seriously waited an entire week for CA and GW to tell us most things that we already know and discussed about? Do they no read the forums? I thought they were gathering feedback?
    The siege rework better be mind blowing because I'm not going to wait another week for CA to tell us that the dragon lords are *gasp* ACTUALLY NOT BENEVOLENT AT ALL. Wow, great suspense and writing you people have. Such twist, such thrills. Definitely George RR Martin caliber.
    This is nothing new to Warhammer, at all. I don't what franchise you've been following, but it's not a deep setting.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,706


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    The High Elves didn't lose all their colonies. In fact they're still the premier naval power in the Warhammer World with colonies on every major continent. They regularly face assaults and wars that should've done them in ages ago, and part of that is due to their own incompetence.

    Cathay has the Great Maw, the constant civil wars between the dragon siblings, and the Monkey King. They have at least three major events or instigating factors that have done severe damage that we haven't seen yet, all of them self-inflicted or self-arising, not outside, external threats.
    What's important is that the elven empire lost all their colonies in the old world, and despite being a naval power they still contend agains the equally powerful dark elfs. Their strongest ships, the dragon ships are also limited and could never be produced anymore due to the nature of the lumber used to build the ships.

    And yes, that is the problem. Something that adds flavor or sympathy for the faction such as a cataclysmic event, neither CA nor GW bothered to expand or highlight in their lore dump for cathay. They just shoved it in the end in a poor attempt to balance the sheer propagandist nature of their opening paragraphs of fellating cathay.


    Except the High Elves traded in colonies for embassies and trade quarters for the Old World; their enclave in Marienburg basically is a self-governing colony, as it is in almost every other major city. Their navy is still the strongest in the lore, more so than the gunpowder-based fleets of the Empire or Bretonnia. They're supposed to be an empire in decline but we hardly see them declining in anything besides population, maybe.

    You said that Cathay lacks internal flaws and conflict, and yet they've had a literal *civil war*, and it's likely not the only one. Cathay also created the Great Maw, probably the single greatest and worst wound on the face of the planet in Warhammer history. This is not new lore or information. This has been established since 4th edition.

    Everything you want is already there.
    It's hard to care about their civil war because we never know the effects of it to their country. We never know how many lives are lost in it. We never know what the stakes are depending on what faction would have won.
    Guess what other factions have civil wars too. Nobody cares about elector civil wars because the winner just becomes emperor in the end. The greatest civil war being one between the elves that resulted in the desolation of nagarythe and the creation of perhaps the most sadistic and evil faction in the world of warhammer barring chaos worshippers.

    And with regards to the great maw, well what of it? Sure it made ogres the ravenous brutes that they are today but seriously, do you even consider ogres a legitimate threat? Heck often times they were considered far more beneficial to the races of Order in times of need as long as they were paid and fed.
    If they really wanted to expand on the wrongs Cathay did, they would have mentioned that the creation of the great maw led to the exodus that caused the ogres to destroy the sky titan civilization but they never bothered with that even.
    It's almost as if this is the debut of an entire faction that only just now got anything more than a lore blurb in some obscure RPG books. It's like we're going to see more details about these events and places for the first time in decades since they were first mentioned.

    I know people hate being told "wait and see", but you need to just wait and see.
    Yeah and I'd rather CA and GW to show off how ugly Cathay is before hand so it is much more satisfying to around their grim position.
    We seriously waited an entire week for CA and GW to tell us most things that we already know and discussed about? Do they no read the forums? I thought they were gathering feedback?
    The siege rework better be mind blowing because I'm not going to wait another week for CA to tell us that the dragon lords are *gasp* ACTUALLY NOT BENEVOLENT AT ALL. Wow, great suspense and writing you people have. Such twist, such thrills. Definitely George RR Martin caliber.
    Buddy if you're expecting George RR Martin level content , you are definitely in the wrong Wendy's.
    I was being sarcastic if it wasn't evident.
    lol yeah no ****
  • hendo1592hendo1592 Registered Users Posts: 2,712
    Kind of an uphill battle with this one, huh? Especially, when most of us have seen the trailer. I'll just park this here...


  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,802


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    Most major cities in warhammer have never fallen to invasion. Including cities far to the north and close to chaos, such as Naggarond, Middenheim, Ghrond, Karak Kadrin, etc. Cathay was never destroyed before the End Times, this has always been the case in the lore. So at least one of the major cities never falling seems pretty reasonable.

  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,153


    In a warhammer sense, yes. Disney princesses are literally characterized by them wanting to break out of tradition and following their spirit of adventure.

    Disney princesses are characterized as being feisty go-getters that won't do what daddy asks of them.

    Alarielle goes to war because she's seen Dark Elf depravity first hand, because she feels it's her obligation as Everqueen to take the fight to forces of Chaos and Disorder when Princes and Phoenix Kings play politics. You don't hear about other Everqueens in the lore because they all abided by social convention and tradition. Alarielle is an actual rebel -- she's willing to use her clout as Handmaiden of Isha to actual do Isha's work, even if it sets her people on edge seeing their equivalent of the Dalai Lama lead armies.

    Yes she's very Noblebright, but she's got her own flaws and her actions do have consequences.

    Mary Sue: Humans ruled by Dragon rulers (including one explicitly tainted by evil) where people who challenge the rule are killed and there's perpetual war against hell Demons.

    Yeah and they went out of their way to point out these humans are living in harmony under the rule and protection of a benevolent godlike being that they cherish. No where else in WHFB is an entire society portrayed as being harmonious.
    Dragons kill humans for "disrespect", which honestly can mean so many things considering Bretonnian nobles take the same liberties, all the while with alchemists shunned by society and dragons regularly feuding with each other, likely at the cost of countless human lives.

    All the "good" factions have benevolent, powerful beings in one way or another. That doesn't make them utopian.
    There's a difference between your head canon and every evidence shown in the trailer and what was written in the blog that the humans dont even look bothered by it. In fact they have the gall to show cathay as this beautiful place with floating mountains instead of being a dysfunctional hell hole with constant peasant rebellions.
    There's no head canon. The blog posts mention civil war, beastmen, social outcasts, totalitarian ideology, Chaos cults, an evil (and active) usurper, severe power inequality, a constant battle against Chaos, a lethargic, ineffective emperor, as well as this little thing called the Great Maw, that all threaten Cathay.

    Bretonnian peasants aren't all that bothered by their living conditions. Neither are Sylvanian peasants. That doesn't mean their circumstances are in anyways good or desirable, it's just all that they know and it, in a twisted way, "works". The dynamic in Cathay between dragon and human is no different from others we've seen in the setting.
    Except for bretonnian peasants looking like your typical monty python extra full of grime and dirt and malnourished, meanwhile cathayan civilians look perfectly healthy and fit.
    You're assuming you're looking at peasants and not professional, paid, taken care of soldiers, which isn't out of place for a depiction of early modern China.


    Except that I don't think Cathay is supposed to represent early modern china, which would also depend on what era early modern china means to you.
    A military regular that's properly paid and well fed kinda goes against the "SEE CATHAY ISN'T ALL SUNSHINE AND RAINBOWS????" narrative as well, because state troops are also professional soldiers and they still sport that warhammer mudcore aesthetic. Cathay by comparison looks squeaky clean.
    Show don't tell GW.
    You're telling us Cathay is a hellhole nobody would want to live in but why does their aesthetics look sanitized and inoffensive?

    A fact that may surprise you: the Empire isn't a hellscape. It's a dynamic, vital, evolving nation-state that, despite all the hurdles and bloodshed and oppression, still displays some of humanity's best qualities when the going gets tough -- that's why it's patron god is a man-made god that was once a man. The cults of Shallya, Sigmar, Verena, Morr, Ranald, and Myrmidia, are genuinely altruistic, noble, and just orders, while also being supremely corrupt and and inefficient most of the time. Most parts of the Empire enjoy relative peace and prosperity whenever it's not facing another doomsday event, and there is quite a list of priests, emperors, statesmen, knights, and generals that consist of honorable, decent people.

    Most other of the "order" factions follow that same paradigm; supremely flawed but still heroic where it matters. Even repressive Bretonnia has it's own take on that. Meanwhile, we still know next to nothing about Cathay.
    And we still have plenty of art showing that the empire indeed looks like a dung ages civilization, which is what makes the acts of altruism ever more precious because it highlights that even in dark and bleak times, there is good to be found in the empire. This is literally the spirit of Warhammer.
    Meanwhile Cathay is presented to us immediately as something grand and extremely powerful and has some internal problems but nothing its citizens have to fear for in the future as long they keep bootlicking the dragon emperor.
    Nevermind the fact that "dung ages" was never a thing historically, or that the Empire was on the precipice of an industrial revolution before the End Times. The High Elves are as squeaky clean as they come, and their political system doesn't work half the time because of all the political intrigue, on top of stubbornly dying from their own mistakes and never accepting help when offered. Everyone in Warhammer is flawed, to varying degrees. The Empire was perhaps more "honest" about it.

    Cathay is grand and extremely powerful because that's how it was depicted in the lore. The Great Bastion, the Dragon Emperor, the Great Maw, these are not new concepts. Cathay as this hyper-advanced empire has always existed in the background, a place extremely different and more powerful than anything else in the Old World.
    The high elfs as I mentioned are excused in being squeaky clean because they got their teeth kicked in with the war of the beard and lost all the colonies. They are also a dying race with more elfs dying than being born.

    Cathay has no similar equivalent that knocks them off their pedestal. It makes them incredibly hard to relate to or even give a damn about because they are seemingly invincible against all outward threats. Internal problems are ultimately pointless when we have the dark elfs being the most extreme case of an anarchical society and yet they have managed to exist for thousands of years and still remain a global power.

    Every faction needs to have an existential threat and Cathay has none. They even make a point that Nan-Gau, one of the nearest cities to the great bastion has never been raided nor sacked. One piece of old lore says that a series of earth quakes once broke parts of the great bastion caused numerous warbands to pour into cathay and raid the country with impunity until they were eventually pushed back. Are you saying that Nan-Gau is so strong that it never suffered the effects of such a great invasion?

    That is extremely dull.

    Even chaos, GW's very own favored child that they would do everything in their power to make them come out on top, is more flawed than cathay.

    Most major cities in warhammer have never fallen to invasion. Including cities far to the north and close to chaos, such as Naggarond, Middenheim, Ghrond, Karak Kadrin, etc. Cathay was never destroyed before the End Times, this has always been the case in the lore. So at least one of the major cities never falling seems pretty reasonable.

    It's also worth noting that it is explicitly stated the Bastion has been breached, and also that an outside threat - The Monkey King - has taken over the Empire because the Dragon Emperor arbitrarily decided to disappear and the kids started fighting.
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