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Dogs of War or Legion of Nagash?

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  • TitushshsTitushshs Registered Users Posts: 66
    Estalia is confirmed in tw3
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,244

    Since a number of people seem to be questioning what Legion of Nagash would bring, what would Dogs of War bring?

    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    For Dogs of War to be interesting to me, CA/GW would have to redesign them, give them the renaissance Spain/Italy theme the existing army hints at. And if they're going to redesign Dogs of War, or create armies like Cathay, why not do something different with Legion of Nagash as well?

    Because you can't "redesign'" something that doesn't exist in the first place. Even Cathay had some things.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 6,893

    However as CA have said this game is not set during the end times.

    Well, obviously. TWW has its own plot going on. Just like it isn't set in the Storm of Chaos events. Doesn't stop CA from using its content.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,244
    arthadaw said:

    Calling DoW a race is quite laughable, they are by design supposed to be mercenary and would work only as such (like the Ogre currently)

    They literally had an army book on the TT which could be used independently... many of the races we have now didn't even have that.

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,873
    edited September 23

    arthadaw said:

    Calling DoW a race is quite laughable, they are by design supposed to be mercenary and would work only as such (like the Ogre currently)

    They literally had an army book on the TT which could be used independently... many of the races we have now didn't even have that.

    People keep conflating the RoR supplement with the DoW armybook supplement. It's been clarified so many times now that I feel like people who keep repeating that nonsense are just being deliberately obtuse.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,244
    SerPus said:

    However as CA have said this game is not set during the end times.

    Well, obviously. TWW has its own plot going on. Just like it isn't set in the Storm of Chaos events. Doesn't stop CA from using its content.
    Indeed. Yet even there Legions of Nagash were not a unique race - just an amalgamation race designed to be used like the AoS grand alliances.

    Legions is a purely hypothetical faction - like fishmen.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,311
    arthadaw said:

    Calling DoW a race is quite laughable, they are by design supposed to be mercenary and would work only as such (like the Ogre currently)

    DoW is the colloquial name of the Southern Realms polities using those mercenaries as their main armies.
  • arthadawarthadaw Registered Users Posts: 1,096

    arthadaw said:

    Calling DoW a race is quite laughable, they are by design supposed to be mercenary and would work only as such (like the Ogre currently)

    They literally had an army book on the TT which could be used independently... many of the races we have now didn't even have that.

    And Army book doesn't make a race, just like a there wasn't an army book that represented the Monogod, just one that represented Chaos as a whole but who wouldn't work well as a Total War Race
  • KillertutKillertut Registered Users Posts: 638
    i would like dow first, just because humans are more enjoyable to me than undead.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 6,893

    Legions is a purely hypothetical faction

    It is. Like Norsca or monogods.
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,244
    arthadaw said:

    arthadaw said:

    Calling DoW a race is quite laughable, they are by design supposed to be mercenary and would work only as such (like the Ogre currently)

    They literally had an army book on the TT which could be used independently... many of the races we have now didn't even have that.

    And Army book doesn't make a race, just like a there wasn't an army book that represented the Monogod, just one that represented Chaos as a whole but who wouldn't work well as a Total War Race
    I mean... an army book literally does make a race; that was the only definition on tabletop...

    Total War changes stuff but so far every book will be represented in some form - so the DoW book deserves to be represented to.

    Honestly though I absolutely could see CA overlooking them for legions. A couple of skeleton reskins; half the Vampire counts roster and Nagash - bam half this forum order 10 copies.
  • DeadpoolSWDeadpoolSW Registered Users Posts: 2,904

    Since a number of people seem to be questioning what Legion of Nagash would bring, what would Dogs of War bring?

    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    For Dogs of War to be interesting to me, CA/GW would have to redesign them, give them the renaissance Spain/Italy theme the existing army hints at. And if they're going to redesign Dogs of War, or create armies like Cathay, why not do something different with Legion of Nagash as well?

    Because you can't "redesign'" something that doesn't exist in the first place. Even Cathay had some things.
    They have Morghasts and Dread Abyssals, who share a similar aesthetic with Nagash. It wouldn't be hard for CA/GW to create a full roster of units with this aesthetic, or even build a full roster from existing units (like the many threads on the matter).
    Nagash will rule again!

    Justice for Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms, Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nippon, Ind, Khuresh & the Hobgoblin Khanate!
  • KronusXKronusX Registered Users Posts: 2,056

    Since a number of people seem to be questioning what Legion of Nagash would bring, what would Dogs of War bring?

    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    For Dogs of War to be interesting to me, CA/GW would have to redesign them, give them the renaissance Spain/Italy theme the existing army hints at. And if they're going to redesign Dogs of War, or create armies like Cathay, why not do something different with Legion of Nagash as well?

    ''Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.''

    Except...you won't get those as individual races because they have too few units to design it around. Would it be nice? Sure

    Is it viable? Probably not, which is why DoW is the best thing since it can come with all of them at once. CA are too lazy to design a race pack for every single race you mentioned above along with East factions, Chaos dwarves and Ogre Kingdom.

    You think the company using re-skins for Chaos during its official mono factions will do unique units for each of the race you mentioned? Come on mate, you need to be realistic. They would rather spend more time designing LPs that would officially take them less time and squeeze for more $ .
  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Registered Users Posts: 2,575
    Let me say it like this ; I hope it is the legions of Nagash !!
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • kratostatickratostatic Registered Users Posts: 672
    Preferred option - both as fully fledged unique races.

    Next best option - DoW as fully fledged race, Nagash as a Be'lakor-style combined undead "superfaction".

    Next best option - Legions of Nagash as a fully fledged unique race, no DoW (or slight preference for an expanded Merc mechanic obviously).

    Next best option - DoW as a fully fledged unique race. Nagash either not in or implemented as an LH.

    Next best option - neither implemented (but something else is).

    Worst option - Nagash as a VC LP LL, no DoW.
  • Gloire_bbGloire_bb Registered Users Posts: 17

    No one has ever answered the question of what Legions of Nagash bring other than Nagash. I'm fine with Nagash, personally preferred him as a background character like Sigmar but if people want him in I understand it. What I don't want is a pointless race pack just to facilitate one character.

    Nagash.

    (1)Faction itself - significant for Lore, and all that stuff;
    (2)Revamp of Arkhan the black faction.
    (3)Interesting game dilemma for all undead and Skaven factions.

    To be fair - it's also reason against faction, or, at least, Nagash himself as a LL. He's both too strong, and he leaves followers of Nagash in a weird position. Faction will have to be redone completely - not only its roster but the campaign, too.

    DoW

    (1)Faction itself - significant for Lore and a whole bunch of placeholder factions (Tilea, border princes, city-states around the world).
    (2)Revamp of Pirates of Sartosa faction.
    (3)Update of global mercenary units around the world.

    Sartosa also requires a complete update - the old weird campaign will finally go away (much like Fans for Nagash).
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,244

    Since a number of people seem to be questioning what Legion of Nagash would bring, what would Dogs of War bring?

    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    For Dogs of War to be interesting to me, CA/GW would have to redesign them, give them the renaissance Spain/Italy theme the existing army hints at. And if they're going to redesign Dogs of War, or create armies like Cathay, why not do something different with Legion of Nagash as well?

    Because you can't "redesign'" something that doesn't exist in the first place. Even Cathay had some things.
    They have Morghasts and Dread Abyssals, who share a similar aesthetic with Nagash. It wouldn't be hard for CA/GW to create a full roster of units with this aesthetic, or even build a full roster from existing units (like the many threads on the matter).
    Yes but it wouldn't be hard by that logic to give us a full Amazons army. Or a full fishmen army. Or a full snakeman army.

    DoW have an army. I'd happy for CA to make up new stuff; but we should get all the stuff that is actually from fantasy.
  • obippoobippo Member Registered Users Posts: 2,676
    dogs of war as I predicted months ago. also no one wants Generic Skeleton Race #3
    Always be aware when a Content Refusing Troll Brigade (CRTB) representative is near. Contact your local Witch Hunter for further info.


  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 2,656
    Chad Nagash: Supreme Lord of the Undead, The Undying King, Father of Necromancy and all vampire-kind , Lord of the Black Pyramid, General of the armies of undeath that challenged Sigmar Heldenhammer himself, and sorceror of a spell that would have raised all the dead in the world under his command.

    Virgin Borgio the beseiger: I hAvE a MaCe

    ------------------------------

    Jokes aside, Characters like Borgio would only make sense with the siege overhaul, so W3 is pretty much their only hope. Really though I'd prefer if CA came up with some of their own, as some DoW characters seem to be from GW's silly season.
    Just as a warning against making predictions- https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290416/time-to-admit-there-will-be-no-new-dlc-for-twwh-2#latest

    Stung by people disagreeing with you? Try calling them shills and whiteknights, it's way easier than debating.
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 5,183


    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    All races that you'll never get, because CA isn't gonna do 10 Campaign packs.

    DoW is the only way we ever get Halflings, Amazons or Albion in the game.

    And why is everybody that is anti-Dow so disingenuous about pikes ? Pike and shot was a massive, fundamental change in warfare. Pikes aren't halberds or longer spears. They are an entirely different way to approach a battlefield. That's like saying a Phalanx is just a bunch of spearmen.
  • Lord_ZarkovLord_Zarkov Registered Users Posts: 630
    Maelas said:


    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    All races that you'll never get, because CA isn't gonna do 10 Campaign packs.

    DoW is the only way we ever get Halflings, Amazons or Albion in the game.

    And why is everybody that is anti-Dow so disingenuous about pikes ? Pike and shot was a massive, fundamental change in warfare. Pikes aren't halberds or longer spears. They are an entirely different way to approach a battlefield. That's like saying a Phalanx is just a bunch of spearmen.
    DoW don’t have the ‘and shot’ part of that. (Though one RoR has similar but with crossbows).

    And a Phalanx *is* a formation of spearmen. Hoplite spears were long, but they weren’t pikes.

    In TT the differences between pikes and spears were:
    1) fight in 2 additional ranks (1 more than HE spearmen)
    2) striking before chargers to the front (which was pretty big tbf in 6-7th when models killed stopped the front rank attacking).
    3) a strength bonus vs cav and monsters to the front (spears in TT weren’t ‘anti-large’)

    This did mean in WFB you really didn’t want to charge them in the front as they got a ton of (admittedly low strength) attacks that would probably stop you fighting back, however they lost effectiveness quickly as they lost models and in flank and rear were no better than armoured archers.

    In TW terms that’s what though, slightly stronger spearmen with expert charge defence? Maybe a rule that makes them degrade quicker as they take damage?



  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,244
    edited September 23

    Maelas said:


    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    All races that you'll never get, because CA isn't gonna do 10 Campaign packs.

    DoW is the only way we ever get Halflings, Amazons or Albion in the game.

    And why is everybody that is anti-Dow so disingenuous about pikes ? Pike and shot was a massive, fundamental change in warfare. Pikes aren't halberds or longer spears. They are an entirely different way to approach a battlefield. That's like saying a Phalanx is just a bunch of spearmen.
    DoW don’t have the ‘and shot’ part of that. (Though one RoR has similar but with crossbows).

    And a Phalanx *is* a formation of spearmen. Hoplite spears were long, but they weren’t pikes.

    In TT the differences between pikes and spears were:
    1) fight in 2 additional ranks (1 more than HE spearmen)
    2) striking before chargers to the front (which was pretty big tbf in 6-7th when models killed stopped the front rank attacking).
    3) a strength bonus vs cav and monsters to the front (spears in TT weren’t ‘anti-large’)

    This did mean in WFB you really didn’t want to charge them in the front as they got a ton of (admittedly low strength) attacks that would probably stop you fighting back, however they lost effectiveness quickly as they lost models and in flank and rear were no better than armoured archers.

    In TW terms that’s what though, slightly stronger spearmen with expert charge defence? Maybe a rule that makes them degrade quicker as they take damage?



    Well they could actively let the back ranks fight - right now even spearmen only fight on the front rank. That would be a massive mechanical change which would make them play exceptionally differently. Think Squat blocks of troops in deep formations - rather then units maximising their front line.

    Basically they would be the greeks/macedons from Rome Total War - and that's an interesting army style we haven't got in game yet.
  • DragantisDragantis PolandRegistered Users Posts: 412
    I know and agree that Nagash is real interesting character but giving Him a slot for DLC race pack is wrong. We already have 3 undead race with 2 of them being a DLC race pack, we don't need a 3th undead DLC race. Also if CA wanted to do something really interesting with Nagash they always could do a LL pack with Him as VC lord vs Alcadizaar as TK and add an option for Nagash if He win campaigne, He can recruit some of TK units.
    Also let's be really honest there is no need for any more low and mid tier undead units, I know that few high tier monster would be cool but there are only few in race pack, as much as in LL pack.

    For Dogs of War it really depend if we get them or Southern Kingdoms. I would a lot more like to get Southern Kingdoms with Dog of War as a race mechanic. I would also like to see Ca focusing on Myrmida and making a few unit that are themed around Her. Maybe even add a special mechanic for SK that allow few unit to change formation as Myrmidia is goddess of war and tactic.

    Although what I real want to see is either Nippon with an nice half focus on samurai and half on Japanese's yokai or Ind Kingdom with Tigers man (although it would be good enough for me if they were in beastmen LL pack).

    PS. Anyone notice that in WH2 we got only undead DLC race?
    Blood for the Blood God!
    Among men, Lu Bu. Among horses, Red Hare.
  • DeadpoolSWDeadpoolSW Registered Users Posts: 2,904
    Maelas said:


    Halberds? Oooh, how exciting.
    Amazons/Halflings/Albion/Araby? All races I would rather get, and might bring something more interesting than Dogs of War.

    All races that you'll never get, because CA isn't gonna do 10 Campaign packs.

    DoW is the only way we ever get Halflings, Amazons or Albion in the game.

    And why is everybody that is anti-Dow so disingenuous about pikes ? Pike and shot was a massive, fundamental change in warfare. Pikes aren't halberds or longer spears. They are an entirely different way to approach a battlefield. That's like saying a Phalanx is just a bunch of spearmen.
    Honestly my preference would be any one of those minor races instead of Dogs of War- I find them infinitely more interesting (without a DoW redesign).

    And I'm not disingenuous about pikes- I genuinely don't care about them, or what differentiates them from spears/halberds. I'll take warrior women, druids, hobbits, magic carpets, etc any day of the week over a different pointy stick.
    Nagash will rule again!

    Justice for Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms, Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nippon, Ind, Khuresh & the Hobgoblin Khanate!
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 6,893
    Dragantis said:

    We already have 3 undead race with 2 of them being a DLC race pack, we don't need a 3th undead DLC race.

    This kind of logic doesn't really benefit DoW, since we are getting (at least) four human races, with three of them being core races.
  • DragantisDragantis PolandRegistered Users Posts: 412
    SerPus said:

    Dragantis said:

    We already have 3 undead race with 2 of them being a DLC race pack, we don't need a 3th undead DLC race.

    This kind of logic doesn't really benefit DoW, since we are getting (at least) four human races, with three of them being core races.
    I agree with you and that's why for me more interesting would be either Nippon (half human-half monster race) or Kingdoms of Ind (with whatever CA and GW make them). Right now we are sure to get Ogres (probably a pre-order), Chaos Dwarfs and one more race (we may got more but it is not sure). So for that last slot I would like to see something really interesting.
    Blood for the Blood God!
    Among men, Lu Bu. Among horses, Red Hare.
  • EquixEquix Registered Users Posts: 1,394
    I think the opposite: the more races of each type, the better.

    I would like to have by the end of W3:

    10 races of humans:
    Empire, Bretonnia, Norsca, Kislev, Cathay, Southern Realms (Dogs of War), Nippon, Ind, Amazons, Albion.

    10 races of diverse pure chaos:
    Chaos Warriors, Chaos Undivided, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, 3 different Beastmen races (apemen and fishmen? they exist in lore), Skaven.

    4 races of Elves:
    High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Sea Elves.

    4 races of Undead
    Undead Legions of Nagash
    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    Vampire Coast

    3 races of Greenskins
    Greenskins
    Hobgoblin Khanates
    Gnobblar Hordes

    3 races of Dwarfs
    Dwarves
    Chaos Dwarves
    Norse Dwarves

    2 races of cold blooded
    Lizardmen
    Kuresh (snakemen, reimagined to be great)

    If this takes 12 years is ok, warhammer should be the ultimate fantasy world, detailed and diverse like this.

    new Undead Legion Nagash, The Nameless, Dieter Helsnicht and Undead Hag or Dragon Empress LL (kislev or cathay mortach).

    MONOBLOODLINES:
    /Necrachs:Zacharias, Melkhior, Radu the forsaken
    /Strigoi:Ushoran, Vorag, The Black Prince, Rametep
    /Blood Dragon:Red Duke, Walach Harkon, Abhorash
    /Lahmia:zNeferata, Nitocris, Ulrika, Naaima

    Tomb Kings:
    Apophas
    (Craddles of Serpents (new race)) Ind+Amazons+Kuresh Together
    /Fishmen and Sea ElvesFishmen with a few Sea Elves.
    Ogre Kingdoms with gut magic and a Gnobblar LL
  • AxiosXiphosAxiosXiphos Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,244
    SerPus said:

    Dragantis said:

    We already have 3 undead race with 2 of them being a DLC race pack, we don't need a 3th undead DLC race.

    This kind of logic doesn't really benefit DoW, since we are getting (at least) four human races, with three of them being core races.
    Humans are different though - many settings indeed only have humans; even in fantasy. There is more you can do with them, and they always feel more fresh because we can identify much easier with them and their unique groups. They are the only 'fantasy race' that gets an auto-inclusion in every setting.

    Other races don't get that; so they need to have a purpose. The 3 undead races we have already cover a huge ground in terms of gameplay mechanics and themes. I don't see what themes or mechanics such an additional race would add?

    Ethereal units? Vampire Counts and Coast are flooded with them. Hell Coast even has an ethereal LL.

    Elite undead units? Counts have elite cav - blood knights, coast have elite glass-cannon infantry - depth guard, kings have elite tanky infantry - tomb guard. Is there really a huge thematic gap missing there? Elite ranged? Nothing about Nagash screams that.

    Big undead monsters - More then covered by the existing 3.

    So what gap does this legion fit? We have defensive undead, versatile undead and aggressive undead. Do we really need another one in the middle? With much much less character /charm beyond it's LL? S
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 6,893

    Humans are different though

    And VC are different from TK, yet people still refer to them as Undead races.

    There is more you can do with them, and they always feel more fresh because we can identify much easier with them and their unique groups.

    Not really. In Warhammer, they are mostly just parodying real cultures. Doesn't sound very fresh to me.

    We have defensive undead, versatile undead and aggressive undead.

    Wait, how does this line of thought works when we compare DoW with other human races? That they are defensive with their pikes? Cathay is defensive. They have monsters? Both Kislev and Cathay have them. They are versatile? So is the Empire.
  • Hanzo11Hanzo11 Registered Users Posts: 143
    My most wanted addition to the series is Nagash as a legendary lord with his own campaign mechanics and a few unique units. That being said I understand the arguments people have against his inclusion since it could take the place of other factions. I think that many people are right in saying that DOW are probably the only realistic scenario where we would see the inclusion of units and races that would otherwise never been included in the game. There is nothing stopping ca from creating full factions for races like Amazon's but we have to be realistic about the amount of content that will be released for the game. Ideally this either or scenario won't be necessary for legions of nagash and DOW because I feel both warrant inclusion.
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