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Empire Knights vs Norscan Berserkers & the Cav Beta

snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92
Norscan Berserkers are anti-infantry and have low armour. Which means they should be a prime target for Empire Knights.
Considering Empire Knights are also anti-infantry and have high armour. Berserkers
However when put these up against each other it is not the one-sided matchup you would expect. I've tested it multiple times on high unit settings and the same results repeats itself. The Berserkers were also braced for most of the charges, it becomes a little chaotic with the AI after all. I am cycle-charging.

The first charge is usually the best trade since Berserkers doesn't have their physical resist up etc. After that it goes downhill.
The Empire Knights can trade in their favor, but they always end up badly hurt(10-25% health left) before they rout the Berserkers.

I understand that I should avoid the Berserkers when they have buffs up, but this doesn't sit right with me. Stage 1 takes 30 seconds of fighting to reach which translates to about two charges from cav. Then it is 30 seconds of 20% physical resist followed by 30 seconds of melee attack bonus and physical resist. Then we get the final 30 seconds of physical resist, melee attack and rampage. That is a grand total of 1 minute and 30 seconds that I should avoid charging Berserkers? That's absurd.

However if you do wait all that time, you can finish off the Berserkers with about 50-70% health remaining on Empire Knights. 70% IF you get good charges. Which is another point that annoys me. Also worth noting that I am routing the Berserkers. If they stay in the fight they could probably sink the Knights to 30-50% hit points.

Why can Berserkers trade so well against a cav unit in the same price tier? They are anti-infantry specialists. They are hard countered by ranged units after all. Why not be countered by cav aswell? It's much harder to get cavalry charges than firing missiles.

It's also worth noting that if you just change to Reiksguard the matchup changes drastically. Reiksguard can finish off Berserkers with 50% health or more. Which is still a high ammount of value that Berserkers can pull off in my opinion. You will get a better result if you wait 1 minute and 30 seconds though.....

Bracing helps them I understand that, but why are they performing so well against cavalry?

Which brings me to the Cav Beta. I don't know if it is collision modifiers that are the problem because bracing is always there. The Beta does seem to fix the charge vs charge problem, but not the matchup itself. That gives me the fear that there will still be a lot of infantry that can trade favorbly with cav. As long as they brace. If the cav gets wounded it loses it's effectiveness. Cav is usually more expensive than infantry. It cannot take the trades that Empire Knights gets with Norscan Berserkers. In other words, you don't have to kill off a cav unit to render it ineffective.

And if heavily armoured cav cannot charge into regular infantry, why do we buy it? If they can only go after the softer targets why not just go for light cav? Only keep them for cav vs cav engagements? Bracing should help soften the blow for the defending infantry, not allow them to retaliate evenly. Most Cav that is supposed to be "anti-infantry".

How to fix the trades between infantry and cav? I don't know the answer. Higher charge bonuses would probably just create more trouble across the board. If there was any way to add aditional charge bonus vs infantry for shock cav, that could help. And for meele cav they could get melee defence vs infantry(That is only applied against non anti-large units).

Another possible aid could be to add a "dazed" effect on charge against infantry. "Dazed" reduces melee attack for X seconds and should(hopefully) solve the trade-off problem. Regular infantry can "soften" the blow, but not trade evenly with cav. The cav can still kill them, but it will take longer because of bracing. Charge defense vs large naturally cancels this effect. The problem with this is ofcourse that it could function as support for melee engagements. So it has to be applied on an entity based level to avoid imbalance. I am not sure if the effort required would be worth it.

The Norscan Berserkers however I believe the answer is simple. Reduce their weapon strength and meele attack by 10-20. Replace the number with bonus vs infantry instead. They should be punching above their weight against infantry, not by punching everything else aswell. The bonus vs infantry should also be a significant buff against infantry, considering vigour will have a drastically reduced effect on them.
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Comments

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,890
    Nope, they need no nerfs whatsoever. Restricting their usefulness even further when they are already hard-countered by ranged troops is absolutely out of the question.

    And excuse me? They need to be in sustained combat for several seconds to activate their bonus, it's YOUR responsibility to not let them get to this point if you don't want them to participate.

  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 673
    Berserkers are benefiting from physical resistance here and extremely high weapon strength even beating out some elite tiers it’s more by design that they’re unique amongst infantry.

    This is a really weird comparison I would try cavalry with magic damage.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,490
    edited September 23
    Er no. They r prime target for low ap arrows.

    Excel in melee, the whole point of them.

    It would be utterly stupid if they don’t trade well.


    I got a better idea lol, go check silverin vs berserkers and tell me why they r getting silvershield, magic resist and anti large for free

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  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,987
    Just because a unit is labeled as anti-infantry, doesn't mean they suck against large. They got high WS and HP which is effective against everything.

    Big'uns are anti-large as well, but they do well against infantry. It's just a little bonus to give them an edge as a well rounded unit, not like cheap spears who double their damage against large.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 673
    Also why nerf Norsca they have literally the smallest unit roster.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,898

    Also why nerf Norsca they have literally the smallest unit roster.

    Discounting lords/heroes because in that regard norsca is a travesty but so are some other factions.

    Norsca has the same amount as WoC with 27.
    3 Races have less among those I counted at Vampire Coast and Bretonnia with both 25 units and Tomb Kings with 24.

    So no Norsca does not have the smallest unit roster.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 250
    No offense but if you are making these tests then you really don't understand how the units in this game work and what are their purposes.

    Empire Knights are a mobile mass that is there to either protect your ranged from enemy cav / SEMs (while ranged do most of the dmg), or kill enemy ranged or hunt down fleeing units.

    Empire knights are not there to deal with a glass cannon mid tier infantry in a faction that literally has only melee (or very low range) units, duh...

    The fact that empire knights won just shows how many problems Norsca has currently. I personally think berserkers could use a slight buff given how vulnerable they are and the current state of Norsca.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565
    no, there are reasons others have stated for why berserkers shouldn't be nerfed, but the fact is that empire knights are only 100 more expensive, and have 29 more speed, if they win against melee infantry that aren't even that poorly suited to fight them, then it would be ridiculous
  • snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92
    ThisIsREM said:

    No offense but if you are making these tests then you really don't understand how the units in this game work and what are their purposes.

    Empire Knights are a mobile mass that is there to either protect your ranged from enemy cav / SEMs (while ranged do most of the dmg), or kill enemy ranged or hunt down fleeing units.

    Empire knights are not there to deal with a glass cannon mid tier infantry in a faction that literally has only melee (or very low range) units, duh...

    The fact that empire knights won just shows how many problems Norsca has currently. I personally think berserkers could use a slight buff given how vulnerable they are and the current state of Norsca.

    I don't believe you understand how the units in this game should work. The only real weakness they have is ranged because they trade amazingly in their tier against everything. I am not saying they are OP, I am not saying Norsca is not struggling, but the entire dynamic of something labeled "Shock Cavalry" is not able to convincingly win against a unit that has 15 armour and is labeled an "anti-infantry" unit is insane. You yourself even called them "Glass cannon mid tier infantry".

    That Empire Knights are used as a defensive mass unit is the problem. They are not supposed to be. Shock cav is offensive in nature, you can use them defensively too, but you want the charge. Killing missile units have always been the light cav's job and I would say that is still the case in Warhammer. Just look at their speed values. Most light cav have 90 in speed and Empire Knights have 66. I mean who has vanguard deployment for crying out loud.

    Do you seriously want Norscan Berserkers to be this amazing all around good unit because Norsca would be awful without them? You want them to trade effectively against infantry and large alike? How is that even remotely strategic? They turn into a must unit. That is treating the symptom not the disease. It will not fix whatever issues Norsca has.

    It is BAD for the game that you can see armies in singleplayer riddled with Berserkers, prepare your own Empire Knights and they are not able to counter them. Empire Knights should be anti-infantry and they fail at the role even though the game is clearly telling you they are the counter.

    Also did you even look at my suggestions? I am saying buff their anti-infantry capabilities, it's a give and take situation. The bonus vs infantry increase will NOT reduce their damage against infantry, but increase it. They will just not trade aswell against cav and other large.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,600
    This is part of the problem with both berzerkers and empire knights.


    Berzerks are incredible value for what they are, but with a clear weakness. They can trade well into Emp knights largely because they have time to do so because empire knights will kill bezerk models very slowly.

    Empire knights have appallingly bad killing power against anything. As a result they are used as some weird high mass mobile armour block and are probably the least cavalry like cavalry unit in the game.

    Their charge bonus is low so doesn't even help much, they are a counter intuitive unit and not a particularly satisfying unit design, this isn't to be confused with understanding they have their uses.

    Ultimately the problem with them is their WS, you can buff their MA through Franz or a priest but they still struggle to kill anything as a result of the WS.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 673
    Uagrim said:



    Discounting lords/heroes because in that regard norsca is a travesty but so are some other factions.

    Norsca has the same amount as WoC with 27.
    3 Races have less among those I counted at Vampire Coast and Bretonnia with both 25 units and Tomb Kings with 24.

    So no Norsca does not have the smallest unit roster.

    Discounting Norscas literally 3 lord options is not something I’d do.
  • AfghanMambaAfghanMamba Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 49
    Norsca is bad enough as is and they’re likely going to be nerfed by the beta so no I don’t think berserkers need nerfs on top of that
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,490

    I don't believe you understand how the units in this game should work. The only real weakness they have is ranged because they trade amazingly in their tier against everything. I am not saying they are OP, I am not saying Norsca is not struggling, but the entire dynamic of something labeled "Shock Cavalry" is not able to convincingly win against a unit that has 15 armour and is labeled an "anti-infantry" unit is insane. You yourself even called them "Glass cannon mid tier infantry".

    Lulz, dont go bs urself so hard. Its a unit with just +5 anti inf

    Tbhi ts pretty stupid to be choosing a $850 emp knights to fight when u got a $750 chaos warrior right there ready to go.
    Really just another epic fail narrative

    How bout u go test swordmasters vs dread knights, I mean isnt that what u wanna play, anti inf vs cavalry. Go ahead
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  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 673
    edited September 23
    Other thing to point out is empire knights are probably the worst armored cavalry in the game by performance(not necessarily price). Basically every other armored cavalry unit has either better stats or has some kind of bonus or even both.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 250

    ThisIsREM said:

    No offense but if you are making these tests then you really don't understand how the units in this game work and what are their purposes.

    Empire Knights are a mobile mass that is there to either protect your ranged from enemy cav / SEMs (while ranged do most of the dmg), or kill enemy ranged or hunt down fleeing units.

    Empire knights are not there to deal with a glass cannon mid tier infantry in a faction that literally has only melee (or very low range) units, duh...

    The fact that empire knights won just shows how many problems Norsca has currently. I personally think berserkers could use a slight buff given how vulnerable they are and the current state of Norsca.

    I don't believe you understand how the units in this game should work. The only real weakness they have is ranged because they trade amazingly in their tier against everything. I am not saying they are OP, I am not saying Norsca is not struggling, but the entire dynamic of something labeled "Shock Cavalry" is not able to convincingly win against a unit that has 15 armour and is labeled an "anti-infantry" unit is insane. You yourself even called them "Glass cannon mid tier infantry".

    That Empire Knights are used as a defensive mass unit is the problem. They are not supposed to be. Shock cav is offensive in nature, you can use them defensively too, but you want the charge. Killing missile units have always been the light cav's job and I would say that is still the case in Warhammer. Just look at their speed values. Most light cav have 90 in speed and Empire Knights have 66. I mean who has vanguard deployment for crying out loud.

    Do you seriously want Norscan Berserkers to be this amazing all around good unit because Norsca would be awful without them? You want them to trade effectively against infantry and large alike? How is that even remotely strategic? They turn into a must unit. That is treating the symptom not the disease. It will not fix whatever issues Norsca has.

    It is BAD for the game that you can see armies in singleplayer riddled with Berserkers, prepare your own Empire Knights and they are not able to counter them. Empire Knights should be anti-infantry and they fail at the role even though the game is clearly telling you they are the counter.

    Also did you even look at my suggestions? I am saying buff their anti-infantry capabilities, it's a give and take situation. The bonus vs infantry increase will NOT reduce their damage against infantry, but increase it. They will just not trade aswell against cav and other large.
    "The only real weakness they have is ranged because..." -> I stopped reading there. Yeah, volkmar coming in and insta killing them with soulfire bombardment is not a weakness, neither is burning head, nor is being charge IN THE BACK by shock cav who have almost double the effective speed.

    Look I don't wanna be that guy who goes around forums telling people "Learn 2 Play" but this is what this conversation boils down to with those "arguments".
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,898

    Uagrim said:



    Discounting lords/heroes because in that regard norsca is a travesty but so are some other factions.

    Norsca has the same amount as WoC with 27.
    3 Races have less among those I counted at Vampire Coast and Bretonnia with both 25 units and Tomb Kings with 24.

    So no Norsca does not have the smallest unit roster.

    Discounting Norscas literally 3 lord options is not something I’d do.
    Even if you count everything Tomb Kings would still have less with 40 vs 42.

    Not that berserkers are a lord option to begin with.

    Fact is they do not have the smallest roster unit wise.
  • snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92
    ThisIsREM said:

    "The only real weakness they have is ranged because..." -> I stopped reading there. Yeah, volkmar coming in and insta killing them with soulfire bombardment is not a weakness, neither is burning head, nor is being charge IN THE BACK by shock cav who have almost double the effective speed.

    Look I don't wanna be that guy who goes around forums telling people "Learn 2 Play" but this is what this conversation boils down to with those "arguments".


    If you think this is a "Learn 2 Play" issue you are simply being asinine. I know very well how to deal with Berserkers and if you read my entire post you would understand that I don't like how they can trade with Empire Knights.

    Why are you bringing up all of these irrelevant examples? Do you think Empire Knights are devestating in the rear charge or something? They're not. Are we suddenly talking about magic balance now? Because I fail to see how any of this justifies the fact that Norscan Berserkers can trade effectively with Empire Knights while bracing.

    Please read the entire thing.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 250



    ThisIsREM said:

    "The only real weakness they have is ranged because..." -> I stopped reading there. Yeah, volkmar coming in and insta killing them with soulfire bombardment is not a weakness, neither is burning head, nor is being charge IN THE BACK by shock cav who have almost double the effective speed.

    Look I don't wanna be that guy who goes around forums telling people "Learn 2 Play" but this is what this conversation boils down to with those "arguments".


    If you think this is a "Learn 2 Play" issue you are simply being asinine. I know very well how to deal with Berserkers and if you read my entire post you would understand that I don't like how they can trade with Empire Knights.

    Why are you bringing up all of these irrelevant examples? Do you think Empire Knights are devestating in the rear charge or something? They're not. Are we suddenly talking about magic balance now? Because I fail to see how any of this justifies the fact that Norscan Berserkers can trade effectively with Empire Knights while bracing.

    Please read the entire thing.
    Dude, just stop. Literally not a single person is even remotely agreeing with you. Learn to understand when your opinions are simply not correct based on reactions of a large number of independent and often more experienced players.
  • snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92
    ThisIsREM said:

    Dude, just stop. Literally not a single person is even remotely agreeing with you. Learn to understand when your opinions are simply not correct based on reactions of a large number of independent and often more experienced players.

    Why? So that I should just agree with you? You can't even make a decent case for why this is a bad change. You don't want to discuss it? Fine, I don't have a right for your time, but I should learn to understand my opinions are simply not correct? What load of buffoonery. You should learn to come up with a decent argument instead of just trying to change the topic.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,890
    edited September 23

    ThisIsREM said:

    Dude, just stop. Literally not a single person is even remotely agreeing with you. Learn to understand when your opinions are simply not correct based on reactions of a large number of independent and often more experienced players.

    Why? So that I should just agree with you? You can't even make a decent case for why this is a bad change. You don't want to discuss it? Fine, I don't have a right for your time, but I should learn to understand my opinions are simply not correct? What load of buffoonery. You should learn to come up with a decent argument instead of just trying to change the topic.
    So let's assume their implement your suggestion and nerf Berserker raw stats in favor of more BvI and that "dazed" thing.

    Now how are you supposed to use berserkers? Against infantry? How would you ever get them this far and why would any competent player let you have that engagement? Any cavalry unit could just have a go at them from the front and punt them out of the game. And that in addition to them getting shot or obliterated by magic. And it's not like the metagame even favors bringing anti-infantry units in the first place since the most you see is chaff in high numbers where getting bogged down is the entire point rather than winning fights.

    So congrats, you made a unit completely useless! And only because you were not able to make use of the speed and mobility advantage cavarly has over infantry.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565



    ThisIsREM said:

    "The only real weakness they have is ranged because..." -> I stopped reading there. Yeah, volkmar coming in and insta killing them with soulfire bombardment is not a weakness, neither is burning head, nor is being charge IN THE BACK by shock cav who have almost double the effective speed.

    Look I don't wanna be that guy who goes around forums telling people "Learn 2 Play" but this is what this conversation boils down to with those "arguments".


    If you think this is a "Learn 2 Play" issue you are simply being asinine. I know very well how to deal with Berserkers and if you read my entire post you would understand that I don't like how they can trade with Empire Knights.

    Why are you bringing up all of these irrelevant examples? Do you think Empire Knights are devestating in the rear charge or something? They're not. Are we suddenly talking about magic balance now? Because I fail to see how any of this justifies the fact that Norscan Berserkers can trade effectively with Empire Knights while bracing.

    Please read the entire thing.
    if a unit can be nuked by a firemage instantly, and the other can't, that is a big reason for one NEEDING to beat the other, the next is why the hell shouldn't berserkers win this fight, they are only a little cheaper, but all they do is melee combat, a small bonus vs infantry is irrelevant, and the not so great armor of empire knights ensures that the majority non AP isn't that big a deal, cav should not beat melee infantry if they slam into the front of them, if they rear charge they should trade well, the fact is when one unit can be nuked by most spells, and the other can run down any infantry unit in the game after it's broken it is not fair to say that the one that can be nuked must lose melee because of a few disadvantages, regardless of if they change the cav or not
  • snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92

    So let's assume their implement your suggestion and nerf Berserker raw stats in favor of more BvI and that "dazed" thing.

    Now how are you supposed to use berserkers? Against infantry? How would you ever get them this far and why would any competent player let you have that engagement? Any cavalry unit could just have a go at them from the front and punt them out of the game. And that in addition to them getting shot or obliterated by magic. And it's not like the metagame even favors bringing anti-infantry units in the first place since the most you see is chaff in high numbers where getting bogged down is the entire point.

    So congrats, you made a unit completely useless! And only because you were not able to make use of the speed and mobility advantage cavarly has over infantry.

    Well first off, thanks for actually reading the post. Second, there is more to the game than just multiplayer.
    But to address your points, they can still be shot to pieces with less bonus vs infantry. They can still be obliterated by magic, so my changes doesn't do a single thing there.

    As for competant players not letting you have these engagements. What's stopping them now? I am just changing how the damage is done, not the movement speed.

    For cavalry units I am assuming you mean heavy cav because light cav just cannot deal the necessary damage. All they would do is activate berserk early for minimal health cost. On the other hand you should be able to do something against attacking cav. Your formation, frontline, literally anything. Maybe cover their advance with chaff or use them as bait even. Norsca has more units than Berserkers. Also keep in mind that I am not changing their cost. You can still spam them if you like.

    If Norsca is truly so dependant on Berserkers being good against everything, isn't that just an indication that the faction needs serious rebalance or redesign?

    The hope for the entity based dazed thing is that only the units that the cav is charging is affected. Meaning that you can't use rear charges as a debuff(Hopefully). Maybe it should only apply to heavly armoured shock cav, maybe it should apply to all cav. I don't know, but anti-infantry cav should be able to charge regular infantry and have exchanges in their favor.

    And yes, you are supposed to use Berserkers against infantry. That's precisely what I want. They can still be used against large units, but they just wouldn't be as useful. So if the meta favors chaff in high numbers to bog you down, this is a buff for Berserkers. As far as I know bonus vs infantry is unaffected by fatigue/vigour and I reccomended this change based on that assumption. That should actually strengthen their capability of cutting down said chaff even faster. Though I don't understand why we should obey the online meta in the first place. Should we really not change anything because it would upset the meta?

    "So congrats, you made a unit completely useless! And only because you were not able to make use of the speed and mobility advantage cavarly has over infantry."

    I don't even know where you are getting this from.

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,890
    edited September 23
    If you lock most of their combat stats behind BvI, anything that isn't infantry can just wallop them, including pistoliers and mounted yeomen. Yes, they are already vulnerable to ranged and magic and now they also can't damage anything that isn't infantry and they are put out of commission if any heavy unit charges them thanks to that "dazed" thing, so their value is even further diminished.

    Yes, you completely ruined a unit and for no reason other than that you can't properly use cavalry. Why should any Norsca player agree to this exchange? What do THEY get out of this? It's not like Norsca is some top-tier faction that rules tournaments with berserkers now, is it?
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 1,034
    i'd say dont ruin what is not broken (hammerers o7), berserkers are strong unit , but with glaring weaknesses
    BsFG dwarf
  • snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92

    if a unit can be nuked by a firemage instantly, and the other can't, that is a big reason for one NEEDING to beat the other, the next is why the hell shouldn't berserkers win this fight, they are only a little cheaper, but all they do is melee combat, a small bonus vs infantry is irrelevant, and the not so great armor of empire knights ensures that the majority non AP isn't that big a deal, cav should not beat melee infantry if they slam into the front of them, if they rear charge they should trade well, the fact is when one unit can be nuked by most spells, and the other can run down any infantry unit in the game after it's broken it is not fair to say that the one that can be nuked must lose melee because of a few disadvantages, regardless of if they change the cav or not

    Well they both get pretty drained by fate of bjuna so there's that. I think it's fair to say they can both be obliterated by magic. I also think we should balance magic seperatly from units and not take into consideration who can be blown up by what. As for why Berserkers shouldn't win the fight, they are an unarmoured infantry unit. Empire Knights are supposed to be anti-infantry. They are also cheaper and you are correct that +5 bonus vs infantry is irrelevant, I would like to change that. So they wouldn't do so well in the exchanges with cav.

    "All they do is melee combat", well that is a pretty good talent and it is something Empire Knights are not good at all.
    I would actually argue Berserkers are amazing at it. You can also flank with them, they do have 37 in speed after all.

    The majority of the non AP is a big deal. They can beat Empire Knights if you get some bad charges.

    Why shouldn't a heavly armoured shock cav beat an unarmoured infantry unit in a frontal charge? This is what Empire Knights should've been made for. I could do it in other Total War games. That's ofcourse not to say that the other games had perfect balance either, but I enjoy the dynamic that heavy cav could charge non anti-large infantry and not lose a bunch of HP. Also bear in mind that the Berserker are not gonna die from a single charge. It usually takes something like 4-6 charges depending on how the exchanges go.

    As for running down any infantry unit in the game, Berserkers have 37 in speed and a higher weapon strength. They would probably kill their routing advesary faster than Knights. Also if it's chasing down routing units, Empire Knights are 850 gold. Seems a bit expensive for that task when Pistoliers are 500 a pop. Empire Knights are also really bad at said task and are only wasting valuable fatigue and time on it. Unless you have no other choice ofcourse.
  • snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92

    If you lock most of their combat stats behind BvI, anything that isn't infantry can just wallop them, including pistoliers and mounted yeomen. Yes, they are already vulnerable to ranged and magic and now they also can't damage anything that isn't infantry and they are put out of commission if any heavy unit charges them thanks to that "dazed" thing, so their value is even further diminished.

    Yes, you completely ruined a unit and for no reason other than that you can't properly use cavalry. Why should any Norsca player agree to this exchange? What do THEY get out of this? It's not like Norsca is some top-tier faction that rules tournaments with berserkers now, is it?

    I never said lock most of the combat stats behind BvI, I said between 10 and 20(20 could indeed be excessive). If you went with 10 they would still do 47 pluss frenzy. Their melee attack value would be at 38 against large units. How does that make them helpless against Pistoliers and Mounted Yeomen exactly? Also they will not be put out of commission on a single charge. If the shock cav stay in the fight they will lose to the Berserkers with or without changes.

    Also do you think that the "dazed" effect is permanent? It's for cycle charging that should only last an X ammount.

    "Yes, you completely ruined a unit and for no reason other than that you can't properly use cavalry"

    Where do you people even get this from? When did I ever say that I'm struggling with cavalry? To me it sounds like the faction has a lot more issues that needs resolving because if this change breaks them, they were never properly balanced in the first place. Also completely ruined a unit? So they won't trade well against infantry now? They can't even attack large units?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,890
    "Between 10 and 20" is massively excessive for a unit that has 38 MA. That means they are on the level of Goblins against anything that isn't infantry and yet cost 550g more. Plus you want them to lose even more MA if they fight large units with the "dazed" thing.

    Yeah, it's clear you have not the faintest clue about unit balance and are just trying to settle a grudge by punishing a unit that was used against you successfully. That by itself can never be a valid reason for massive balance changes.
  • snnnffrknlinsnnnffrknlin Registered Users Posts: 92

    "Between 10 and 20" is massively excessive for a unit that has 38 MA. That means they are on the level of Goblins against anything that isn't infantry and yet cost 550g more. Plus you want them to lose even more MA if they fight large units with the "dazed" thing.

    Yeah, it's clear you have not the faintest clue about unit balance and are just trying to settle a grudge by punishing a unit that was used against you successfully. That by itself can never be a valid reason for massive balance changes.

    Good sir I have 2,7 K hours in the game. I have beaten things with Berserkers, beaten Berserkers and been beaten by Berserkers. I've done them all. I just don't like how the Berserkers are designed. There's no grudge. Also they are nowhere near goblins(in terms of melee attack) because you are forgetting their berserk ability aswell as frenzy. Maybe you struggle with the concept of balance aswell ^^.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    if a unit can be nuked by a firemage instantly, and the other can't, that is a big reason for one NEEDING to beat the other, the next is why the hell shouldn't berserkers win this fight, they are only a little cheaper, but all they do is melee combat, a small bonus vs infantry is irrelevant, and the not so great armor of empire knights ensures that the majority non AP isn't that big a deal, cav should not beat melee infantry if they slam into the front of them, if they rear charge they should trade well, the fact is when one unit can be nuked by most spells, and the other can run down any infantry unit in the game after it's broken it is not fair to say that the one that can be nuked must lose melee because of a few disadvantages, regardless of if they change the cav or not

    Well they both get pretty drained by fate of bjuna so there's that. I think it's fair to say they can both be obliterated by magic. I also think we should balance magic seperatly from units and not take into consideration who can be blown up by what. As for why Berserkers shouldn't win the fight, they are an unarmoured infantry unit. Empire Knights are supposed to be anti-infantry. They are also cheaper and you are correct that +5 bonus vs infantry is irrelevant, I would like to change that. So they wouldn't do so well in the exchanges with cav.

    "All they do is melee combat", well that is a pretty good talent and it is something Empire Knights are not good at all.
    I would actually argue Berserkers are amazing at it. You can also flank with them, they do have 37 in speed after all.

    The majority of the non AP is a big deal. They can beat Empire Knights if you get some bad charges.

    Why shouldn't a heavly armoured shock cav beat an unarmoured infantry unit in a frontal charge? This is what Empire Knights should've been made for. I could do it in other Total War games. That's ofcourse not to say that the other games had perfect balance either, but I enjoy the dynamic that heavy cav could charge non anti-large infantry and not lose a bunch of HP. Also bear in mind that the Berserker are not gonna die from a single charge. It usually takes something like 4-6 charges depending on how the exchanges go.

    As for running down any infantry unit in the game, Berserkers have 37 in speed and a higher weapon strength. They would probably kill their routing advesary faster than Knights. Also if it's chasing down routing units, Empire Knights are 850 gold. Seems a bit expensive for that task when Pistoliers are 500 a pop. Empire Knights are also really bad at said task and are only wasting valuable fatigue and time on it. Unless you have no other choice ofcourse.
    first of all, let me just laugh, ha

    find a wind spell, any wind spell in the game, that wind spell can nearly wipe out a full health unit with no problems, the number of spells that can do that to cav is easily half or less

    and no you cannot ignore what magic does, magic SHOULD work differently, but it doesn't and you CANNOT ignore it, no matter what, unless you want to ignore that things like flyers, where you then balance things without a thought to anything except the unit in a vacuum

    next Berserkers shouldn't be just about infantry slaying, they are supposed to be melee blenders, and things that shouldn't want to fight things that want to stick into combat should do well, cav is not supposed to just brainless face slam into units that have one possible use, melee, Berserkers are only good for fighting things in Melee, so they need to beat things that are countered by less magic, run down units, get easy rear charges, put pressure on faster missile units, and have a shield to top it off, if Berserkers payed 100 more to gain 29 speed, they would be OP as hell, that is because when you are faster your melee stats become premium, so a unit that is significantly faster, and only a little cheaper isn't going to do well when they are fighting a unit that has a bonus weakness to leadership dropping the effects like rear charges due to frenzy, and an additional weakness due to it's passive not popping until more models are dead, giving it less value

    yes they can flank, but ranged troops can easily cut them off with no shields and no armor to protect them from even low teir missle fire, and they are slow enough that they can't catch up before they can be shot down, and even if they do flank around thats the only time cav should fight against them without support

    Empire Knights should not win because there job is to fight in support of the army, the empire is about combined arms, not sending heavy cav into the face of the enemy, and just pulling back 5 or 6 times to auto win the game, Berserkers are well suited to melee fighting, counter them with ranged and magic, melee is to tie them up, and to try and collapse on them, that is what needs fixed, collapsing on a unit, not just straight winning because they cost a little more, and would cost far less if you equaled speed
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,490
    edited September 24
    Ppl have this really funny and absurdly ridiculously notion that if ure light armoured u should lose to heavy armor somehow. Thats totally misguided.

    Thats not how balance works.

    Ppl fascination with berserker is pretty humurous when they r among the WORST bunch in that category. Of which all the other $750 r significantly better than them, ranging from the benchmark $750 chaos warrior, tomb guards, big un from there onwards to saurus, witch elves, dancers. This is not even including $700 longbeards.

    Of which ALL OF THEM ARE EQUALLY capable of destroying emp knights.

    Outright stupid if u think $750 saurus, chaos knights, long beards, tomb guards, war dancers, witch elves of which the later 2 r equally light armoured cant do the same to knights
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