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Is Warhammer Fantasy less grimdark than 40k? (redux)

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  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,557
    Fantasy is a dark fantasy universe but it definitely isn't Grimdark. Even the end of the world was just a new beginning ala Age of Sigmar.

    Fantasy's good guys are morally grey. The Empire has its flaws, but life for the common citizen is decent for a Medieval society and most of the worst aspects of it are logical reactions to the world itself being hostile.

    40K is... Not logical. It has pretenses of being logical. Excuses for why it is the way it is. But there's also a LOT of completely senseless slaughter, death, and suffering that could be easily prevented. The Imperium began as a parody of facism. The entire society is insane and that is kind of the point.

    With that being said the Imperium is a corrupt system of government, but that doesn't mean humanity isn't worth saving.

    Humanity might be worth saving. But I'd argue quite strongly the Imperium is not. And if humanity cannot exist without furthering the Imperium and its omnicidal policies then humanity isn't really worth preserving after all. They're no different from the orks as far as the rest of the galaxy is concerned.
  • CrosswireCrosswire Registered Users Posts: 197
    The thing about 40k is that as bad as the Imperium is,bit is still preferable to pretty much anything else. The Tau used to be about as good as it gets, but they are becoming more and more grey, the Squats got squatted and the Eldar are racist pretentious gits. Everything else is horribly evil or genocidal.
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 4,633
    Warhammer Fantasy is considerably less grim dark than 40K...but it’s still pretty grim dark.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 29,907
    Crosswire said:

    The thing about 40k is that as bad as the Imperium is,bit is still preferable to pretty much anything else. The Tau used to be about as good as it gets, but they are becoming more and more grey, the Squats got squatted and the Eldar are racist pretentious gits. Everything else is horribly evil or genocidal.

    Thing is the Imperium literally uses Troops like the Orcs do... It's just wave after wave of soldiers till the enemy drowns in blood. Sure, they have specialist forces, but those are the minority. They're definitely better than the explicitly evil races, but I wouldn't class them as the best option.

    I'd suggest the Tau are the "good guys" of the setting even though they're slowly being grimdarked. That or you'd go with a sub faction like the Salamanders.
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  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,093

    Crosswire said:

    The thing about 40k is that as bad as the Imperium is,bit is still preferable to pretty much anything else. The Tau used to be about as good as it gets, but they are becoming more and more grey, the Squats got squatted and the Eldar are racist pretentious gits. Everything else is horribly evil or genocidal.

    Thing is the Imperium literally uses Troops like the Orcs do... It's just wave after wave of soldiers till the enemy drowns in blood. Sure, they have specialist forces, but those are the minority. They're definitely better than the explicitly evil races, but I wouldn't class them as the best option.

    I'd suggest the Tau are the "good guys" of the setting even though they're slowly being grimdarked. That or you'd go with a sub faction like the Salamanders.
    By the way why are the Tau called space commies by 40k fans? Communists generaly want to abolish class systems of any kind. But the Tau even have a caste system, aka the strictest form of class system, running their entire society
    So the Tau are the complete antithesis to communisim.
    They have more in common with Platos description of an ideal society in the republic. There he envisioned a society with caste systems led by philosopher kings.
    If the Tau are communists, then the Ferengi are socialists.

    Anyway I would still say that the Tau are the closest to a good guy faction compared to the alternatives.And even at their worst they would not be out of place in other scifi universes

    They are also the faction which uses common sense and logic the most. Which is not saying much if measured against the Imperium and Orks. But this too makes them ab interesting addition to the 40k setting IMO.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 6,760
    40K is far more grimdark. It is the trope creator of grimdark.
    Campaign Management is for suckers.

  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
    Yeh, that's probably a good assessment. 40k is over the top in basically every single way because, well, it's Scif-Fi and there's an entire galaxy of things that can massacre each other whereas Warhammer fantasy is just one world. So WHF kind of needs to be a bit more balanced because there's only so much space and you don't want utterly insane things happening all the time.

    40k can kill of entire planets just for the sake of dramatic effect where in WHF you'd maybe occasionally see a major city get destroyed.

    Also, there's of course the fact that in spite of being fantasy, a lot of it is slightly grounded in history and as such also more toned down where 40k is just full-on fiction.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,105
    I'd certainly fight for Tau if I had a choice..
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 2,799

    I'd certainly fight for Tau if I had a choice..

    For the greater good!
    No, i also dislike Garth Ennis. He is very juvenile and raunchy, and some of his statements are utterly ridiculous, like Captain America being offensive to WWII veterans when his co-creator, Jack Kirby, served in the war and soldiers liked his stories.

    If you think using your abilities to help and inspire people is childish, then i feel sorry for you.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 2,799

    Yeh, that's probably a good assessment. 40k is over the top in basically every single way because, well, it's Scif-Fi and there's an entire galaxy of things that can massacre each other whereas Warhammer fantasy is just one world. So WHF kind of needs to be a bit more balanced because there's only so much space and you don't want utterly insane things happening all the time.

    40k can kill of entire planets just for the sake of dramatic effect where in WHF you'd maybe occasionally see a major city get destroyed.

    Also, there's of course the fact that in spite of being fantasy, a lot of it is slightly grounded in history and as such also more toned down where 40k is just full-on fiction.

    40,000 is more science fantasy like Star Wars than hard sci-fi though.
    No, i also dislike Garth Ennis. He is very juvenile and raunchy, and some of his statements are utterly ridiculous, like Captain America being offensive to WWII veterans when his co-creator, Jack Kirby, served in the war and soldiers liked his stories.

    If you think using your abilities to help and inspire people is childish, then i feel sorry for you.
  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,557
    Crosswire said:

    The thing about 40k is that as bad as the Imperium is,bit is still preferable to pretty much anything else. The Tau used to be about as good as it gets, but they are becoming more and more grey, the Squats got squatted and the Eldar are racist pretentious gits. Everything else is horribly evil or genocidal.

    By no metric is the Imperium preferable. The Craftworlds and the Exodites both boast a massively superior basic quality of life for their average citizens. Necrons arguably do as well if you discount the non-dynasty members since they aren't fully sentient anymore anyway.

    But maybe you meant specifically if you're human? Still no. The Tau Empire might be an authoritarian nightmare by real life modern standards but it objectively has far better quality of life for even its human citizens than the Imperium, which is an even darker shade of authoritarian nightmare anyway.

    The best quality life you can have in the Imperium without being a part of the 1% who get to do the oppressing is only about equal to the bare minimum quality of life the Tau consider tolerable. That is why there are so many gue'vesa in the Tau ranks including high ranking Imperium officers like Inquisitors who have joined up with the Greater Good. They see it as humanity's best hope for a real future once the Imperium inevitably falls.

    Also the Imperium IS genocidal. It is only slightly less so than the orks because it recognizes that it needs assistance to keep itself afloat occasionally, but still absolutely plans to purge their former allies once they get the opportunity.

    Imperium are more racist than Eldar are by a large margin. Eldar ruled the galaxy for 60 million years and didn't try to exterminate all non-Eldar life even once. Imperium had control of the galaxy for five seconds before launching their Great Crusade and trying to exterminate as much non-human life as they could before the Horus Heresy stopped their war machine and gave the xenos a fighting chance.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    I tend to roll my eyes a bit about Warhammer Fantasy being regarded as grimdark. The Bretonnians and Wood Elves got grimderped post-5E, but the other Order races? Yeah, they're flawed. Find me a fantasy setting not aimed at children where the culture(s) that the protagonists come from don't have any flaws. Even flipping Equestria has its dark side.

    As for the argument that it's a doomed setting... similar observation, really. Most epic fantasy stories start with the premise that The World Is Doomed If Somebody Doesn't Do Something. Warhammer was pretty much in the same state. In fact, up until Games Workshop decided to kill the setting, it was an acknowledged theme that every time it looked like the end had come, a champion of Order would rise up to stop it (Aenarion, Sigmar, Magnus the Pious, and so on).

    Finally:

    Imperium are more racist than Eldar are by a large margin. Eldar ruled the galaxy for 60 million years and didn't try to exterminate all non-Eldar life even once. Imperium had control of the galaxy for five seconds before launching their Great Crusade and trying to exterminate as much non-human life as they could before the Horus Heresy stopped their war machine and gave the xenos a fighting chance.

    This. So much. The Eldar are arrogant prats, and they'll wipe out whole species if they foresee that said species will present a threat to them, but otherwise they can maintain friendly relations with other species (there's fluff that implies the Craftworlders still do with some of the other races that were around when the Eldar were at their height, although the Fall has made many of their contemporaries more suspicious of the Eldar. On that matter, it's also interesting to note that some quotes from Craftworld Eldar do actually indicate a degree of humility among contemporary alien species in the wake of the Fall - their arrogance towards humans might well be more indicative to holding humans in contempt specifically rather than believing they're generally superior to everyone else).

    The Imperium only really recognises three classes of xenos. Those too weak to defend themselves, which the Imperium hasn't got around to casually exterminating in order to claim their worlds yet. Those strong enough to require a significant military investment to destroy but which do not present a credible existential threat to the Imperium, which can be exterminated once there are forces to spare to do so. And those which are considered to pose a credible existential threat to the Imperium.

    There is some acknowledgement that xenos in the second category can be useful or even temporary allies in the meantime, but they're still slated for extinction, even if only after everything else was wiped out.

    If the Eldar had the Imperium's attitude towards other species, humanity would probably have been wiped out before developing warp travel.

    Personally, I'd say that if you're some random alien species in the 40K galaxy, the Craftworld Eldar are probably the closest thing to good guys in the setting. Because if you're not going to pose a threat to them, they'll generally leave you alone, rather than subjugating you like the Tau or exterminating you like basically anyone else. They might even help out if you're threatened by one of the other threats in the galaxy - if, of course, there's some benefit to them for doing so.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 2,799
    Draxynnic said:

    I tend to roll my eyes a bit about Warhammer Fantasy being regarded as grimdark. The Bretonnians and Wood Elves got grimderped post-5E, but the other Order races? Yeah, they're flawed. Find me a fantasy setting not aimed at children where the culture(s) that the protagonists come from don't have any flaws. Even flipping Equestria has its dark side.

    As for the argument that it's a doomed setting... similar observation, really. Most epic fantasy stories start with the premise that The World Is Doomed If Somebody Doesn't Do Something. Warhammer was pretty much in the same state. In fact, up until Games Workshop decided to kill the setting, it was an acknowledged theme that every time it looked like the end had come, a champion of Order would rise up to stop it (Aenarion, Sigmar, Magnus the Pious, and so on).

    Finally:

    Imperium are more racist than Eldar are by a large margin. Eldar ruled the galaxy for 60 million years and didn't try to exterminate all non-Eldar life even once. Imperium had control of the galaxy for five seconds before launching their Great Crusade and trying to exterminate as much non-human life as they could before the Horus Heresy stopped their war machine and gave the xenos a fighting chance.

    This. So much. The Eldar are arrogant prats, and they'll wipe out whole species if they foresee that said species will present a threat to them, but otherwise they can maintain friendly relations with other species (there's fluff that implies the Craftworlders still do with some of the other races that were around when the Eldar were at their height, although the Fall has made many of their contemporaries more suspicious of the Eldar. On that matter, it's also interesting to note that some quotes from Craftworld Eldar do actually indicate a degree of humility among contemporary alien species in the wake of the Fall - their arrogance towards humans might well be more indicative to holding humans in contempt specifically rather than believing they're generally superior to everyone else).

    The Imperium only really recognises three classes of xenos. Those too weak to defend themselves, which the Imperium hasn't got around to casually exterminating in order to claim their worlds yet. Those strong enough to require a significant military investment to destroy but which do not present a credible existential threat to the Imperium, which can be exterminated once there are forces to spare to do so. And those which are considered to pose a credible existential threat to the Imperium.

    There is some acknowledgement that xenos in the second category can be useful or even temporary allies in the meantime, but they're still slated for extinction, even if only after everything else was wiped out.

    If the Eldar had the Imperium's attitude towards other species, humanity would probably have been wiped out before developing warp travel.

    Personally, I'd say that if you're some random alien species in the 40K galaxy, the Craftworld Eldar are probably the closest thing to good guys in the setting. Because if you're not going to pose a threat to them, they'll generally leave you alone, rather than subjugating you like the Tau or exterminating you like basically anyone else. They might even help out if you're threatened by one of the other threats in the galaxy - if, of course, there's some benefit to them for doing so.
    Team Tau for life. They have the coolest armor and dinosaurs.
    No, i also dislike Garth Ennis. He is very juvenile and raunchy, and some of his statements are utterly ridiculous, like Captain America being offensive to WWII veterans when his co-creator, Jack Kirby, served in the war and soldiers liked his stories.

    If you think using your abilities to help and inspire people is childish, then i feel sorry for you.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    sykall said:

    Crosswire said:

    The thing about 40k is that as bad as the Imperium is,bit is still preferable to pretty much anything else. The Tau used to be about as good as it gets, but they are becoming more and more grey, the Squats got squatted and the Eldar are racist pretentious gits. Everything else is horribly evil or genocidal.

    Thing is the Imperium literally uses Troops like the Orcs do... It's just wave after wave of soldiers till the enemy drowns in blood. Sure, they have specialist forces, but those are the minority. They're definitely better than the explicitly evil races, but I wouldn't class them as the best option.

    I'd suggest the Tau are the "good guys" of the setting even though they're slowly being grimdarked. That or you'd go with a sub faction like the Salamanders.
    By the way why are the Tau called space commies by 40k fans? Communists generaly want to abolish class systems of any kind. But the Tau even have a caste system, aka the strictest form of class system, running their entire society
    So the Tau are the complete antithesis to communisim.
    They have more in common with Platos description of an ideal society in the republic. There he envisioned a society with caste systems led by philosopher kings.
    If the Tau are communists, then the Ferengi are socialists.

    Anyway I would still say that the Tau are the closest to a good guy faction compared to the alternatives.And even at their worst they would not be out of place in other scifi universes

    They are also the faction which uses common sense and logic the most. Which is not saying much if measured against the Imperium and Orks. But this too makes them ab interesting addition to the 40k setting IMO.
    It's the whole "greater good" thing. Individualism versus collectivism. At the extremes, individualists are supposed to strive for their own good, everyone else be damned, collectivists are supposed to strive for the good of the collective, the individual be damned.

    Anarchy is extreme individualism, and Marxism, which is really just basic tribalism, is as close to an example of extreme collectivism as we've pulled off with any significant scale on our idiotic planet. So are the Tau. So naturally, they get lumped in with the more popular brand. They might fit the ideals of Plato, or even Hinduism much better, but neither are the go to example.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,105
    The Tau’s caste system is vastly different to the current ones we have in our reality. The different castes have ranks which allows everyone in the Tau society to achieve.

    The Tau version of the greater good is based on modern utilitarianism which is pretty much the western norm for ethics. From what I can see Tau have little to do with communism, looks more like mild socialism.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 413
    edited April 8

    Yeah sure since WHFB functioned on a smaller scale than 40k. With that being said the Imperium is a corrupt system of government, but that doesn't mean humanity isn't worth saving.

    The Ecclesiarchy is what made the Imperium to degrade and decay into a degenerate absolute theocracy with genocidal practices. Everything which Big E was against.

    But now that Big G recovered and awakened, he is trying everything in his hands to reform the Imperium, and if that happens to not be possible, he will try to "destroy it" to re-establish the Imperium Secundus.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 2,799
    Victuz said:

    Yeah sure since WHFB functioned on a smaller scale than 40k. With that being said the Imperium is a corrupt system of government, but that doesn't mean humanity isn't worth saving.

    The Ecclesiarchy is what made the Imperium to degrade and decay into a degenerate absolute theocracy with genocidal practices. Everything which Big E was against.

    But now that Big G recovered and awakened, he is trying everything in his hands to reform the Imperium, and if that happens to not be possible, he will try to "destroy it" to re-establish the Imperium Secundus.
    That why TTS Device is the canon version of 40k to me.
    No, i also dislike Garth Ennis. He is very juvenile and raunchy, and some of his statements are utterly ridiculous, like Captain America being offensive to WWII veterans when his co-creator, Jack Kirby, served in the war and soldiers liked his stories.

    If you think using your abilities to help and inspire people is childish, then i feel sorry for you.
  • VictuzVictuz Sao Paulo, BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 413

    Victuz said:

    Yeah sure since WHFB functioned on a smaller scale than 40k. With that being said the Imperium is a corrupt system of government, but that doesn't mean humanity isn't worth saving.

    The Ecclesiarchy is what made the Imperium to degrade and decay into a degenerate absolute theocracy with genocidal practices. Everything which Big E was against.

    But now that Big G recovered and awakened, he is trying everything in his hands to reform the Imperium, and if that happens to not be possible, he will try to "destroy it" to re-establish the Imperium Secundus.
    That why TTS Device is the canon version of 40k to me.
    Didn't know about this... I'm seeing it's humorous but very serious and faithful to the setting.

    Thanks, already created a playlist just to learn more about.
  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 2,799
    sykall said:

    Crosswire said:

    The thing about 40k is that as bad as the Imperium is,bit is still preferable to pretty much anything else. The Tau used to be about as good as it gets, but they are becoming more and more grey, the Squats got squatted and the Eldar are racist pretentious gits. Everything else is horribly evil or genocidal.

    Thing is the Imperium literally uses Troops like the Orcs do... It's just wave after wave of soldiers till the enemy drowns in blood. Sure, they have specialist forces, but those are the minority. They're definitely better than the explicitly evil races, but I wouldn't class them as the best option.

    I'd suggest the Tau are the "good guys" of the setting even though they're slowly being grimdarked. That or you'd go with a sub faction like the Salamanders.
    By the way why are the Tau called space commies by 40k fans? Communists generaly want to abolish class systems of any kind. But the Tau even have a caste system, aka the strictest form of class system, running their entire society
    So the Tau are the complete antithesis to communisim.
    They have more in common with Platos description of an ideal society in the republic. There he envisioned a society with caste systems led by philosopher kings.
    If the Tau are communists, then the Ferengi are socialists.

    Anyway I would still say that the Tau are the closest to a good guy faction compared to the alternatives.And even at their worst they would not be out of place in other scifi universes

    They are also the faction which uses common sense and logic the most. Which is not saying much if measured against the Imperium and Orks. But this too makes them ab interesting addition to the 40k setting IMO.
    I'm proud to be a Gue'vesa.
    No, i also dislike Garth Ennis. He is very juvenile and raunchy, and some of his statements are utterly ridiculous, like Captain America being offensive to WWII veterans when his co-creator, Jack Kirby, served in the war and soldiers liked his stories.

    If you think using your abilities to help and inspire people is childish, then i feel sorry for you.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 6,760
    Why bump this?

    People here can't even come to grips with what grimdark is.
    Campaign Management is for suckers.

  • YurisusukiYurisusuki Somewhere in LustriaRegistered Users Posts: 460
    I think that some people try to force too much a "grimdark Warhammer", i saw some people saying "there's no good or evil in Warhammer", if you compare High and Dark elves you can easily say who is the evil, of course no race are perfect or saints, but obviously there's good and evil in Warhammer universe, the point is that the good guys it's more or less like our civilizations
    Just as planned

  • PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Registered Users Posts: 2,799

    I think that some people try to force too much a "grimdark Warhammer", i saw some people saying "there's no good or evil in Warhammer", if you compare High and Dark elves you can easily say who is the evil, of course no race are perfect or saints, but obviously there's good and evil in Warhammer universe, the point is that the good guys it's more or less like our civilizations

    That's my point.

    Warhammer fantasy is more Grey and Black compared to 40k Black and Black.
    No, i also dislike Garth Ennis. He is very juvenile and raunchy, and some of his statements are utterly ridiculous, like Captain America being offensive to WWII veterans when his co-creator, Jack Kirby, served in the war and soldiers liked his stories.

    If you think using your abilities to help and inspire people is childish, then i feel sorry for you.
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