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Cavalry charging into full HP infantry should be disastrous for the cavalry

ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 242
There have been a lot of discussions on cavalry and how they are too weak, which they are, but not as bad as some people make it out to be. With the Beta cav patch I have seen a worrying amount of evidence that it has gone way too far into buffing cycle charging, including cav being able to cycle charge spears cost effectively. This thread is not directly about the beta patch but more about what I believe should be the logical principles of balancing cavalry.

The principle is simple – charging heavy knights head on into full HP infantry should be a disaster. Shock cavalry should function as the name suggests – deal devastating damage on impact (the shock) and either shatter the infantry, or suffer significant casualties. 45 heavy knights are not nimble, logically speaking they cannot charge in, get surrounded by enemy infantry and then pull out like nothing happened. They are too heavy for this and while turning they would be presenting their flanks and back for easy attacks.

How heavy cav should work? They should identify opportunities where their shock is sufficient to annihilate the enemy and use their superior speed to force these engagements. For example, charging into infantry with 1/3 HP by full health knights should instantly destroy the infantry without the knights taking any damage. Charging into the back of infantry that is engaged in combat should be equally devastating and be a disaster to the player who allowed their infantry to be charged in the back.

At the moment it is all a mess, infantry charge is bugged so cav charging even into low HP units take too much damage. Charging into the back of infantry seems to deal similar damage compared to charging head-on, while it should be 2x-3x more realistically speaking.

However, cavalry can still pick their engagements due to their superior speed. As such, they are still useful. By contrast, if cav becomes over tuned then there is nothing that the infantry can do to avoid a head on charge. This results in this illogical mess where cav charge into a fricking full HP infantry wall and the only “counter” to this is to counter charge with your own cav THROUGH your units.

This is the worst-case scenario for the game in my view, charging through multiple lines of friendly infantry, somehow not damaging the friendly units and then somehow landing a charge on the enemy cav. After this, enemy knights and their horses carrying 150kg+ (rider + armour + weapons) manage to rotate within all this mess and retreat like nothing happened.

Summary: CA if you are going to treat the infantry charge as a bug and fix it using a workaround, then please treat cavalry being able to retreat after a charge without taking damage as a bug too (and fix it). Rotating your horse with 150kg worth of stuff on top of it while being surrounded by infantry should result in significant damage to the knight.

Also, being able to charge through friendly units and have comparable damage output to charging enemy units in the back should be considered a bug too while we are at it.
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Comments

  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,893
    edited September 25
    A unit of chaos knights charging a unit of skaven slaves should end with the unit of slaves running away.

    You can make more discussion about high tier infantry but all expendable and even to some extent low tier infantry should be more impacted by moral shock and the effect of a charge into them.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830
    Uagrim said:

    A unit of chaos knights charging a unit of skaven slaves should end with the unit of slaves running away.

    You can make more discussion about high tier infantry but all expendable and even to some extent low tier infantry should be more impacted by moral shock and the effect of a charge into them.

    Correction, any unit that's in loose formation. Low tier units are in general already affected harder by impacts owing to their lower on average ld-values.

    But right now loose formation makes you better at receiving charges and that's so stupidly counter-intuitive.


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,321
    You would need some tests and data to back up the assertion of how little damage non charging spears/halbards do to cav who quickly pull out.

    I think there’s a little truth around that observation but otherwise your points are an exaggeration. Yes bracing still isn’t very good Vs cav. But the balance besides that isn’t really a problem.

    And the fix wasn’t a bandaid. It was a simple application of logic about models attacking what they could reach. It’s a pretty sensible template to balance units and the game around.

    Sure braced unit’s with charge defense should get to make quick attacks. That aside I don’t agree with your argument and assumptions here.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 242
    Uagrim said:

    A unit of chaos knights charging a unit of skaven slaves should end with the unit of slaves running away.

    You can make more discussion about high tier infantry but all expendable and even to some extent low tier infantry should be more impacted by moral shock and the effect of a charge into them.

    Well duh, 1400 heavy cav should demolish 125 cannon fodder unit. The argument is for reasonable infantry.
  • NinaranNinaran Registered Users Posts: 418
    edited September 25
    Let's not forget that objects colliding leads to equal force being applied to both of them. (Third law, bla bla)
    So the horse should be seriously injured when colliding with a stationary, heavily armoured soldier.

    Also the lance should break, so the charge bonus of that shock cavalry gets reduced massively.

    After all, we want this interaction to be realistic, right?
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,819
    Ninaran said:

    Let's not forget that objects colliding leads to equal force being applied to both of them. (Third law, bla bla)
    So the horse should be seriously injured when colliding with a stationary, heavily armoured soldier.

    Also the lance should break, so the charge bonus of that shock cavalry gets reduced massively.

    After all, we want this interaction to be realistic, right?

    A 800 kg horse+rider combination should be heavily injured when hitting a 100 kg (at best) armored soldier?


    That's the equivalent of that same 100 kg hitting a 12,5 kg toddler. Which typically causes the toddler to be sent flying while the adult is uninjured.
    So, no, not really that much damage done to the horse.

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,819
    And no, cavalry should not be demolished by infantry even if they charge them head on.

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830
    edited September 25
    Pocman said:

    Ninaran said:

    Let's not forget that objects colliding leads to equal force being applied to both of them. (Third law, bla bla)
    So the horse should be seriously injured when colliding with a stationary, heavily armoured soldier.

    Also the lance should break, so the charge bonus of that shock cavalry gets reduced massively.

    After all, we want this interaction to be realistic, right?

    A 800 kg horse+rider combination should be heavily injured when hitting a 100 kg (at best) armored soldier?


    That's the equivalent of that same 100 kg hitting a 12,5 kg toddler. Which typically causes the toddler to be sent flying while the adult is uninjured.
    So, no, not really that much damage done to the horse.

    Hang up a 12.5kg wooden log and run full-tilt into it, maybe even face first. Send my regards to your dentist.

    He's also not charging into one soldier, he's running into an entire tight block of it, so yes, that will stop you dead in your tracks and cause all the horsemen coming in behind to crash into you as well. So actually, repeat the experiment above, but with several logs hanging in a row. Let's see how easy such a collision is on you.

    Cut it with the Rohirrim nonsense, that was pure "movie magic".


  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 242
    eumaies said:

    You would need some tests and data to back up the assertion of how little damage non charging spears/halbards do to cav who quickly pull out.

    I think there’s a little truth around that observation but otherwise your points are an exaggeration. Yes bracing still isn’t very good Vs cav. But the balance besides that isn’t really a problem.

    And the fix wasn’t a bandaid. It was a simple application of logic about models attacking what they could reach. It’s a pretty sensible template to balance units and the game around.

    Sure braced unit’s with charge defense should get to make quick attacks. That aside I don’t agree with your argument and assumptions here.

    I am not saying don't fix the charge bug... I am just saying that those things should be fixed together. My main point is that cav charge damage should be buffed when getting a clean charge while their ability to turn around and retreat in combat should be lower.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,819

    Pocman said:

    Ninaran said:

    Let's not forget that objects colliding leads to equal force being applied to both of them. (Third law, bla bla)
    So the horse should be seriously injured when colliding with a stationary, heavily armoured soldier.

    Also the lance should break, so the charge bonus of that shock cavalry gets reduced massively.

    After all, we want this interaction to be realistic, right?

    A 800 kg horse+rider combination should be heavily injured when hitting a 100 kg (at best) armored soldier?


    That's the equivalent of that same 100 kg hitting a 12,5 kg toddler. Which typically causes the toddler to be sent flying while the adult is uninjured.
    So, no, not really that much damage done to the horse.

    Hang up a 12.5kg wooden log and run full-tilt into it, maybe even face first. Send my regards to your dentist. /blockquote>

    And if my grandma wasn't dead, had a motor and two wheels she would be a motorcycle. Stop the nonsensical comparisions. A person is not made of wood. Nor does a horse charge with it's teeth. A horse that runs over a person will send it flying with almost no damage done to the horse.




    That's one horse sending two, let's assume better built than average guys flying like it was nothing.

    Plus, no one is asking for the Rohirrim. But in real life, cavalry charges existed and were effective, unless faced with specific types of infantry.

  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 242
    Yeah 2 unbraced not armoured and not shielded men, in isolation, is comparable to 90 men in tight formation with spears planted in the ground.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,893
    ThisIsREM said:

    Uagrim said:

    A unit of chaos knights charging a unit of skaven slaves should end with the unit of slaves running away.

    You can make more discussion about high tier infantry but all expendable and even to some extent low tier infantry should be more impacted by moral shock and the effect of a charge into them.

    Well duh, 1400 heavy cav should demolish 125 cannon fodder unit. The argument is for reasonable infantry.
    What counts as reasonable infantry?
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 502
    Why do we assume they're better built than average guys? It looks like an American football game with a marching band, not the goddamn queen's fusiliers. Marching band - the guys that are notoriously nerds and not athletically inclined. Also not braced against anything at all, let alone prepared to defend against oncoming mass.

    "In real life" - I'd love a source for this. Braced infantry blocks aren't countered by cavalry charges. Where would the horses feet go? Horses trip on rabbit burrows, a big mosh of people is just asking for crippled horses. It's breaking and loose formations where the cavalry does the damage.
  • NinaranNinaran Registered Users Posts: 418
    edited September 25
    y4g3r said:

    Why do we assume they're better built than average guys? It looks like an American football game with a marching band, not the goddamn queen's fusiliers. Marching band - the guys that are notoriously nerds and not athletically inclined. Also not braced against anything at all, let alone prepared to defend against oncoming mass.

    "In real life" - I'd love a source for this. Braced infantry blocks aren't countered by cavalry charges. Where would the horses feet go? Horses trip on rabbit burrows, a big mosh of people is just asking for crippled horses. It's breaking and loose formations where the cavalry does the damage.

    The source, as always, is Lord of the Rings.

    Regarding the title though, cavalry charging into full health, braced infantry shouldn't be just disastrous for the cavalry, but for both.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830
    If infantry was always this supposedly disadvantaged against cavaly, then the Roman-Parthian wars would always be lopsided in favor of the latter as the Parthians had better and heavier cavalry than the Romans while the Romans relied on heavy infantry more than anything.

    At Carrhae, the greatest triumph the Parthians scored over the Romans, the Parthians didn't just YOLO charge the Roman legions from the front, they had to spend days bombarding the Roman lines with missiles and feint attacks to keep them on edge. Only when the Roman lines were thinned out sufficiently and the legionaries tired did the Parthians move in for the kill.

    Cavalry is not a brainless blunt instrument, it's a precision tool.


  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,487
    There is still a while to go before its before the bugged state and infantry was good there before also.

    I pretty much disagree with almost all you wrote as it simply doesnt work and never has the way you making it out.

    "charging heavy knights head on into full HP infantry should be a disaster" - no it shouldn't thats so silly to say, it needs to matter what unit type it is and their relative strength to the cav unit that is charging them, no way in hell should Chaos lances feel scared to charge swordsmen and be devastaed... on the other hand black orcs sure, and this is already the case and always has been.

    If you want to add logic to the argument than your assumption is greatly flowed, if the charges were "logical" cav should just run thru the unit/on top of it.

    Cav still needs bit of a bumb on beta in ifnantry interactions, what also needs a bump is bracing, as its not where it should be on beta yet, it should mitigate dmg taken at expense of dmg dealt for non anti large units, currently its not doing that well enough and in many cases at all.
  • Work_Safety_OfficerWork_Safety_Officer Registered Users Posts: 76
    This is a really good suggestion, but you are not listening to the arguments of those who disagree with you, let me translate them for you:

    Yea you got a point, and tbh it's closer to reality, but the problem is, it's not EPIC enough...I want all monsters and cavalry to charge gloriously into these pitiful infantry and laugh while they instantly break; also, perhaps more importantly, it does not suit my playstyle at all...you see I don't really like to win by thinking fast and strategically in a strategy game. Instead, I rely a lot on my reflex action to micro a few expensive cavalry/SEM like a real pro and abuse the hell out of my opponent...That's what I have been doing in all sorts of non-strategy game and the reason why I suck at chess, why are you taking all these away from me, sir? I can click and move my mouse really fast don't I deserve to win? So yea f all with your reality and physics I don't care, just let me have the cavalry and monster EPIC moments plzzzzzzz

    P.S. All sarcasm aside, I agree with pretty much everything you have said. It would also better differentiate between shock cavalry and chariots, in which chariots (not shock cavalry) are really the unit designed to charge head-on into infantry and win that engagement.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    There is still a while to go before its before the bugged state and infantry was good there before also.

    I pretty much disagree with almost all you wrote as it simply doesnt work and never has the way you making it out.

    "charging heavy knights head on into full HP infantry should be a disaster" - no it shouldn't thats so silly to say, it needs to matter what unit type it is and their relative strength to the cav unit that is charging them, no way in hell should Chaos lances feel scared to charge swordsmen and be devastaed... on the other hand black orcs sure, and this is already the case and always has been.

    If you want to add logic to the argument than your assumption is greatly flowed, if the charges were "logical" cav should just run thru the unit/on top of it.

    Cav still needs bit of a bumb on beta in ifnantry interactions, what also needs a bump is bracing, as its not where it should be on beta yet, it should mitigate dmg taken at expense of dmg dealt for non anti large units, currently its not doing that well enough and in many cases at all.

    no, that should still be a bad situation, not so bad the chaos warriors lose, but not trade efficiently, you pay premium for the cav speed, that speed affords you to attack them in the rear, or to take the fight to the units that are shooting exploding rockets and lose in melee to enslaved rats
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,291
    edited September 25
    Pocman said:


    That's one horse sending two, let's assume better built than average guys flying like it was nothing.

    That was definitely a direct knock down. Flying is in the game and it's the pits.
  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 582
    I think it might be helpful to determine what appropriate performance for braced infantry when charged by cavalry, monstrous infantry, and chariots should be before suggesting changes. A lot of the issues you highlight aren't reflective of the current issues in game, nor a reasonable expectation of bracing (a defensive action). Imprecise phrases such as "a disaster" and "reasonable infantry" further make it difficult to assess the usefulness of a particular approach since we haven't established a goal.

    I'd suggest braced infantry should, in terms of damage value, trade between 1.25 and 1.5 times better than counter charging infantry over 5 seconds of combat when compared to the initial attacks from a counter charge by the same unit (around 3 seconds post impact). Focusing on a comparative ratio has the advantage of not interfering with the impact of unit cost, where expensive units or counter units may win in value in both circumstances and chaff will lose value wise in both circumstances.

    These would be aspirational targets and would vary based on individual unit role and cost, since expecting perfectly consistent performance across two unit classes would be unreasonable. However it gives us a solid framework to aim towards and helps provide a benchmark for healthy performance which allows both unit types to regularly see play.

    From this we can draw the design goals of having infantry trade cost ineffectively on counter charges, even if they deal more raw damage than their braced counter parts. This provides tactical options. A player can decide to take cost ineffective trades if the tactical value of damaging a cav, chariot, or monstrous infantry unit is more useful than maintaining an advantage on the balance of power (leadership shenanigans is one easy example). On the other hand if maintaining an advantage or parity in the balance of power while tying down units is more important (such as having ranged units in a powerful position) than bracing would both build an advantage over sustained trades and help accrue value with other units.

    Currently this result is best achieved by reducing infantry charge damage (and/or increasing the resilience of large multi-entity units), since bracing is currently defensively viable and largely undervalued because dealing damage is both very easy and extremely impactful for infantry at the moment. These complaints about realism and concerns about cavalry buffs (specifically buffs that no one is suggesting at the moment) breaking the game are distracting from the issue at hand which is Rakarth patches massive uncompensated buff to infantry damage on the charge.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830



    Currently this result is best achieved by reducing infantry charge damage (and/or increasing the resilience of large multi-entity units), since bracing is currently defensively viable and largely undervalued because dealing damage is both very easy and extremely impactful for infantry at the moment. These complaints about realism and concerns about cavalry buffs (specifically buffs that no one is suggesting at the moment) breaking the game are distracting from the issue at hand which is Rakarth patches massive uncompensated buff to infantry damage on the charge.

    Bracing is currently completely useless, both in vanilla and the beta. It takes luck and good bit of cooperation from the enemy to pull off and the bracing player gains minimal benefit from it. There's even a good amount of lag between stopping a unit and having it count as braced which is just goddamn terrible.

    What all the cavalry pearl-clutchers here don't seem to get is that infantry must have a purpose beyond being a mobile fence and that means infantry must be able to deal damge to units that aren't infantry, including heavier units. Bracing infantry must become easier and it must have a tangible benefit. Just dumpstering infantry charges until they are so neutered you might as well not move the infantry at all is not the solution, that just makes them game poorer.




  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,488
    U already lost when u brace.

    By simple walking past an inf, a unit of cav completely root a unit of inf when they brace.

    By focusing on bracing, it makes the game becomes whoever moves first, dies.
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  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,291
    Bracing is:

    - Reducing collision damage from large units

    Bracing is with Charge Defense:

    - Reducing CB from charging enemies


    Bracing could be:

    - More responsive (short acceleration)
    - Charge disrupting (short acceleration debuff for charger)
    - Possibly increase weapon reach (TT spears had longer weapon reach when receiving a charge and shorter when charging)

    I think anything beyond that is not likely except for elite units like halberds or new units.
  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 582



    Currently this result is best achieved by reducing infantry charge damage (and/or increasing the resilience of large multi-entity units), since bracing is currently defensively viable and largely undervalued because dealing damage is both very easy and extremely impactful for infantry at the moment. These complaints about realism and concerns about cavalry buffs (specifically buffs that no one is suggesting at the moment) breaking the game are distracting from the issue at hand which is Rakarth patches massive uncompensated buff to infantry damage on the charge.

    Bracing is currently completely useless, both in vanilla and the beta. It takes luck and good bit of cooperation from the enemy to pull off and the bracing player gains minimal benefit from it. There's even a good amount of lag between stopping a unit and having it count as braced which is just goddamn terrible.

    What all the cavalry pearl-clutchers here don't seem to get is that infantry must have a purpose beyond being a mobile fence and that means infantry must be able to deal damge to units that aren't infantry, including heavier units. Bracing infantry must become easier and it must have a tangible benefit. Just dumpstering infantry charges until they are so neutered you might as well not move the infantry at all is not the solution, that just makes them game poorer.


    Completely useless is an overstatement of the situation. Bracing has always reduced damage, though not by enough to be meaningful. On the beta that damage reduction is far greater, enough to produce positive value trades for infantry against cycle charging (depending on various factors of course). When braced the damage reduction units with and without charge reduction receive is significant when compared to unbraced and if charging were less effective I think by numbers the current implementation of bracing would be solid.

    However bracing does need quality of life changes, the biggest one is an indicator that a unit is braced. I believe Duck confirmed it's a per entity check and if that's the case the issues with movement are a lot less impactful than we'd expect. Having an indicator of braced status would help to confirm how big of an issue this is. Regardless infantry should be able to count as braced very quickly when they come to a halt and the consistency of this is suspect. Facing can be a problem in some circumstances, but side charges (from cavalry at least) are already less effective since they limit both impact damage and total unit engagement for the cavalry so I'm not confident there is a major problem here. Whether or not the speed of attacks for infantry can be improved without fundamentally altering other match ups is something I'm unclear on, but I'm not opposed to exploring this option if it's deemed necessary.

    The idea that cooperation from an opponent is necessary to brace needs elaboration. If an opponent is unwilling to charge braced infantry with cavalry because they are aware that it's a bad trade that suggests bracing is working as a defensive measure for infantry against cavalry (and ideally other large targets). I'm frankly not sure what people are expecting from bracing? Reflection, or other instant damage sources are largely just turning bracing into a stationary counter charge which just makes the problems were experiencing currently more widespread.

    The idea that infantry are going to be unable to deal damage to non-infantry doesn't really track here as a concern. We're not talking about removing the T&T changes so the days of cav abusing impact damage to treat infantry as bowling pins aren't returning. The changes I suggest still allow infantry to trade on charges into cavalry, they just acknowledge that infantry shouldn't be primarily incentivized to charge into charging cav. From both a game-play and a realism perspective that's counter intuitive and the results it is currently producing are untenable.
    yst said:

    U already lost when u brace.

    By simple walking past an inf, a unit of cav completely root a unit of inf when they brace.

    By focusing on bracing, it makes the game becomes whoever moves first, dies.

    You can make similar categorical statements in reverse though. The fact that cheap infantry can force cavalry to avoid engagements (which is something that's happening on live, just instead of bracing infantry simply threaten to counter charge) means bringing cavalry into games is a losing proposition. Currently infantry force cavalry to the periphery by existing. You could even argue that's more impactful than infantry being incentivized to brace since you can often bring 2 infantry for each cavalry unit.

    I think both of these arguments are wrong on the beta and are oversimplifying a complex issue. Both bracing and counter charging need to be tactical options with valid use cases for infantry and cavalry to interact in engaging and balanced ways. That's going to involve changes to improve bracing (which the beta has) and changes to reduce infantry charge damage (which the beta also has). It's just a matter of getting those performances to a healthy point with additional adjustments.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830
    edited September 25



    You can make similar categorical statements in reverse though. The fact that cheap infantry can force cavalry to avoid engagements (which is something that's happening on live, just instead of bracing infantry simply threaten to counter charge) means bringing cavalry into games is a losing proposition. Currently infantry force cavalry to the periphery by existing. You could even argue that's more impactful than infantry being incentivized to brace since you can often bring 2 infantry for each cavalry unit..

    That's a rather gross mispresentation of what's going on right now.

    See, infantry is weak and almost incapable of earning value, so its primary use is to spam cheap infantry and use it as a mobile obstacle to make access to the cookie jar containing all the real matchwinners harder, those matchwinners being missiles, monsters and mages. That's also why elite melee infantry is so rare since investing in it means you are covering less ground.

    So if you reduce infantry to just being a mobile fence, yeah, it'll stand in your way because you are not allowing it to have any other use. It's like banning all blonde people from picking up jobs and then complaining that so many blonde people are on welfare. It's a self-inflicted wound.

    Nerfing infantry further serves no purpose, that just entrenches this abysmal state of affairs.

    So, how weak does infantry has to be before it has your approval? Have any high mass unit just pass through them like butter, ROHIRRIM STYLE? Because that's the gist I'm picking up from you and other people.


  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 737
    some are way too obsessed about physics and historical accuracy for a game with dinosaurs riding dinosaurs, rats with machine guns and giant horned toads with wings :)
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    A braced unit can't initiate an attack. So the argument from some is that to be effective against cav infantry need to cooperate with another unit so that infantry brace and other unit shoots the cav while braced infantry gets in the way of cav charging in.

    Yet at the same time people are saying its unacceptable for cav to need to rely on another unit to tie their target up so they can charge in the rear/flank and kill them. To some people Cav wont be acceptable until they can charge in from the front alone and beat mid/high tier ap infantry of a similar cost.

    There is obvious bias from anyone making that argument.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,830

    some are way too obsessed about physics and historical accuracy for a game with dinosaurs riding dinosaurs, rats with machine guns and giant horned toads with wings :)

    Elves, dwarfs, skaven, humans and whatever still die if they get skewered by pointy objects, they burn if they get set on fire and they go splat if a big rock lands on them, the fantasy elements of the setting are clearly defined, it's not Alice in Wonderland where everything operates on dream logic. Yes, there are rats with machine guns, but those machine guns kill by the same principle as regular guns, by punching holes into people and other things, they only use bullets made of exotic matter.

    Rule #1 for otherworldly settings - everything works like on earth unless specifically defined otherwise.

    In Alice in Wonderland Alice would die if the Queen of Hearts had her decapitated after all, that's why it's presented as a threat. In Oz meanwhile, this would not be the case because the setting handles such things differently.

    As for the physics of collisions, they wouldn't be Looney Tunes-like punts because people in Warhammer are not helium ballons.


  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 582



    You can make similar categorical statements in reverse though. The fact that cheap infantry can force cavalry to avoid engagements (which is something that's happening on live, just instead of bracing infantry simply threaten to counter charge) means bringing cavalry into games is a losing proposition. Currently infantry force cavalry to the periphery by existing. You could even argue that's more impactful than infantry being incentivized to brace since you can often bring 2 infantry for each cavalry unit..

    That's a rather gross mispresentation of what's going on right now.

    See, infantry is weak and almost incapable of earning value, so its primary use is to spam cheap infantry and use it as a mobile obstacle to make access to the cookie jar containing all the real matchwinners harder, those matchwinners being missiles, monsters and mages. That's also why elite melee infantry is so rare since investing in it means you are covering less ground.

    So if you reduce infantry to just being a mobile fence, yeah, it'll stand in your way because you are not allowing it to have any other use. It's like banning all blonde people from picking up jobs and then complaining that so many blonde people are on welfare. It's a self-inflicted wound.

    Nerfing infantry further serves no purpose, that just entrenches this abysmal state of affairs.

    So, how weak does infantry has to be before it has your approval? Have any high mass unit just pass through them like butter, ROHIRRIM STYLE? Because that's the gist I'm picking up from you and other people.
    You say infantry is weak and almost incapable of earning value but the entire issue is that infantry counter charging large units are currently earning too much value. Something doesn't line up with your assessment. The idea that infantry is hopeless, helpless, and worthless is not currently being reflected by the performance of these units in game nor the meta game that has developed based on unit performance, assuming we are still talking about multiplayer. The issue of elite infantry is an interesting topic, but it's separate from general infantry performance, which is currently warping the meta around CB.

    Furthermore you're misinterpreting my suggestion. No one is suggesting infantry should be a mobile fence. It is quite possible to have infantry deal meaningful damage on the charge while also having them deal less damage than they currently are, which to reiterate is so great it's causing infantry to out trade large units consistently on the charge. Reducing that charge damage to a healthier level does not return infantry to their pre T&T knockback situation, nor does it return the GSK bug that was reducing infantry damage by around 60% on the charge. Acting as though any nerfs to infantry requires making them useless is unreasonable, especially when they've recently received an unexpected buff from the bug fix.

    The final bit is just straw manning. No one has mentioned mass, no one has mentioned cavalry moving through units. If that's the gist of what you are getting from people who disagree with you then you just aren't listening.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,977
    edited September 26

    Pocman said:

    Ninaran said:

    Let's not forget that objects colliding leads to equal force being applied to both of them. (Third law, bla bla)
    So the horse should be seriously injured when colliding with a stationary, heavily armoured soldier.

    Also the lance should break, so the charge bonus of that shock cavalry gets reduced massively.

    After all, we want this interaction to be realistic, right?

    A 800 kg horse+rider combination should be heavily injured when hitting a 100 kg (at best) armored soldier?


    That's the equivalent of that same 100 kg hitting a 12,5 kg toddler. Which typically causes the toddler to be sent flying while the adult is uninjured.
    So, no, not really that much damage done to the horse.

    Hang up a 12.5kg wooden log and run full-tilt into it, maybe even face first. Send my regards to your dentist.

    He's also not charging into one soldier, he's running into an entire tight block of it, so yes, that will stop you dead in your tracks and cause all the horsemen coming in behind to crash into you as well.
    Well you just summoned this obligatory lore blurb

    With the small caveat that these are not human and heavy cavalry in this game is not so heavy, and they can instantly brake to a full stop & swerve around.

    y4g3r said:


    "In real life" - I'd love a source for this. Braced infantry blocks aren't countered by cavalry charges. Where would the horses feet go? Horses trip on rabbit burrows, a big mosh of people is just asking for crippled horses. It's breaking and loose formations where the cavalry does the damage.

    And you this

    At least the horses are wise enough.


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