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So there is not enough magic in the world to sustain the Dwarf's Gronti Duraz

littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
edited September 25 in General Discussion
Yet cathay gets giant magical ninja statues because......
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Comments

  • MonerisMoneris Registered Users Posts: 313
    Different magic maybe? I think Dwarfs use Earthbound magic to activate the Golems.

    I am not sure what Nehekara and Cathay use to animate statues. But I am sure with a bit of tweaking the Dwarfs could activate them again.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 6,105
    The same way TK have their constructs?

    It appears to be more a problem with how the Dwarfs made them that a problem with the idea itself.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
    Well in theory the Gronti duraz are powered by runes, and runes are made by having magic present at the time of forging hammered into them and trapped between intricate shapes designed to hold the magic. They are like magical batteries, independent of the outside and self renewing. That's why runes on everything else never fade unless they are cracked and broken.

    So if anything the Gronti Duraz should be more resistant to lack of magic than other constructs, they have magic bound in themselves and trapped from when they were made
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  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
    Source
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  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,457

    Well in theory the Gronti duraz are powered by runes, and runes are made by having magic present at the time of forging hammered into them and trapped between intricate shapes designed to hold the magic. They are like magical batteries, independent of the outside and self renewing. That's why runes on everything else never fade unless they are cracked and broken.

    So if anything the Gronti Duraz should be more resistant to lack of magic than other constructs, they have magic bound in themselves and trapped from when they were made

    Nah, they are conduits, not batteries. The entire reason the Rune of Power on Thorgrim's throne is the only one is that there is not enough magic in the world to sustain 2 at once as I recall.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
    I believe that it's just too powerfull a rune, and forging another would cause one of them to explode catastrophically if I remember correctly


    From the warhammer wiki

    Azamar, the Rune of Eternity struck into the Throne of Power, was the work of Grungni himself. The Rune of Eternity was so powerful only one of its kind had ever been wrought, and it could never be duplicated. Bound within that single rune was all the craftsmanship, all the tenacity and all the iron will of the greatest of the Ancestor Gods of the dwarfs. As the legends tell it, when Grungni was done with his creation, he stepped back to assess his work. He was a harsh and exacting judge, always demanding perfection, and never finding it. In Azamar, however, Grungni was wholly satisfied. Still, being thrifty in praise, Grungni made only this promise; so long as the Rune of Azamar endures, the Karaz Ankor shall never fall.[2a]

    from the lexicanum

    The throne is inscribed with the great rune Azamar, the unique rune of eternity - a rune so potent that only one of it can ever exist.
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  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,268
    edited September 25
    Yes it is probably a different type of magic necessary to activate them. E.g. Tomb King constructs are powered by the regular magic, divine blessing and the souls of the deceased. And how terracotta statutes are animated, noone knows currently.

    But honestly, I think this is mostly another case of GW writiing restrictions and coming up with more complicated answers, than really necessary. IIRC one statement was, that the magic sunk to deep. Butwhen was enough magic there?
    I'd say curerntly there is more magic present than during the time of the Old Ones, as magic is spewing forth freely, only to be sucked out by the Vortex. The Old Ones were probably more cautious with letting magic of the warp into the world. Because sucking in to much magic leads to stuff like polar gates exploding, I guess. So for the longest time they would have tried to avoid that.

    And if it is powered by geomancy, aka the magical energies of the planet itself, aka the geomatic web, then when did the magic get lost? When the lizard cities fell? During the Age of Woe? How did the geomantic energy even reach the dwarfs in the first place? Where there lizardmen constructs in dwarfen territories? Did dwarfs at one point knew how to access and channel it akin to Lizardmen, even if indirectly through runes, and that magic was lost too? Could dwarfs repair the geomantic web?

    It would have been much easier to say: "The rites to activate them, or the Runes to make them are lost." That way it is clear, why they do no longer function, without a rats tail of other implications. And if GW would decide dwarfs get the Rune Golems again, they could just say: "Ok now Thorek or else found the runes needed!" Without larger rammifications about the nature of magic or the larger setting in general.

    It is akin to beastwomen really. Saying: "Beastmen females look much like the males to outsiders and no regular human really bothers with the difference" or "Beastwomen have their own herds seperated from the males and only meet for ****", would have been much simpler than: "Beastwomen are rare (this again...When aren't females rare GW?), they are more shy (How can anyone afford to be shy in beastmen society? Especially as females are often more aggressive then male ones?), and docile (How can anyone afford to be docile in beastmen society? And female animals are often much deadlier then the male ones.)"
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  • Lord_ZarkovLord_Zarkov Registered Users Posts: 629
    sykall said:

    Yes it is probably a different type of magic necessary to activate them. E.g. Tomb King constructs are powered by the regular magic, divine blessing and the souls of the deceased. And how terracotta statutes are animated, noone knows currently.

    But honestly, I think this is mostly another case of GW writiing restrictions and coming up with more complicated answers, than really necessary. IIRC one statement was, that the magic sunk to deep. Butwhen was enough magic there?
    I'd say curerntly there is more magic present than during the time of the Old Ones, as magic is spewing forth freely, only to be sucked out by the Vortex. The Old Ones were probably more cautious with letting magic of the warp into the world. Because sucking in to much magic leads to stuff like polar gates exploding, I guess. So for the longest time they would have tried to avoid that.

    And if it is powered by geomancy, aka the magical energies of the planet itself, aka the geomatic web, then when did the magic get lost? When the lizard cities fell? During the Age of Woe? How did the geomantic energy even reach the dwarfs in the first place? Where there lizardmen constructs in dwarfen territories? Did dwarfs at one point knew how to access and channel it akin to Lizardmen, even if indirectly through runes, and that magic was lost too? Could dwarfs repair the geomantic web?

    It would have been much easier to say: "The rites to activate them, or the Runes to make them are lost." That way it is clear, why they do no longer function, without a rats tail of other implications. And if GW would decide dwarfs get the Rune Golems again, they could just say: "Ok now Thorek or else found the runes needed!" Without larger rammifications about the nature of magic or the larger setting in general.

    It is akin to beastwomen really. Saying: "Beastmen females look much like the males to outsiders and no regular human really bothers with the difference" or "Beastwomen have their own herds seperated from the males and only meet for ****", would have been much simpler than: "Beastwomen are rare (this again...When aren't females rare GW?), they are more shy (How can anyone afford to be shy in beastmen society? Especially as females are often more aggressive then male ones?), and docile (How can anyone afford to be docile in beastmen society? And female animals are often much deadlier then the male ones.)"

    Peak magic was pre-vortex, since then it has diminished, particularly after the Ogham network was built as well. The talked about in the novella Aenarion - him and Caledor were discussing the risks of the vortex and one of the big ones was it would depower a lot of the Elves’ magic items and mean they couldn’t go toe to toe with greater daemons as easily.

    Since for it to have worked at all the vortex must be extracting faster than the gates are spewing, this means that magic will be generally diminishing as time goes on (particular localised areas aside).

    As for where magic was coming from under the Old Ones, it’s possible the gates were originally set up in part to release raw magic into the world, just in a more controlled manner (perhaps into the geomantic web rather than loose). The way the Paths of The Old Ones were described in Giantslayer and their relationship to the web would support this, as would the implication from Miao’s speech in the trailer that the Old Ones brought magic in its entirety into the world.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,268

    sykall said:

    Yes it is probably a different type of magic necessary to activate them. E.g. Tomb King constructs are powered by the regular magic, divine blessing and the souls of the deceased. And how terracotta statutes are animated, noone knows currently.

    But honestly, I think this is mostly another case of GW writiing restrictions and coming up with more complicated answers, than really necessary. IIRC one statement was, that the magic sunk to deep. Butwhen was enough magic there?
    I'd say curerntly there is more magic present than during the time of the Old Ones, as magic is spewing forth freely, only to be sucked out by the Vortex. The Old Ones were probably more cautious with letting magic of the warp into the world. Because sucking in to much magic leads to stuff like polar gates exploding, I guess. So for the longest time they would have tried to avoid that.

    And if it is powered by geomancy, aka the magical energies of the planet itself, aka the geomatic web, then when did the magic get lost? When the lizard cities fell? During the Age of Woe? How did the geomantic energy even reach the dwarfs in the first place? Where there lizardmen constructs in dwarfen territories? Did dwarfs at one point knew how to access and channel it akin to Lizardmen, even if indirectly through runes, and that magic was lost too? Could dwarfs repair the geomantic web?

    It would have been much easier to say: "The rites to activate them, or the Runes to make them are lost." That way it is clear, why they do no longer function, without a rats tail of other implications. And if GW would decide dwarfs get the Rune Golems again, they could just say: "Ok now Thorek or else found the runes needed!" Without larger rammifications about the nature of magic or the larger setting in general.

    It is akin to beastwomen really. Saying: "Beastmen females look much like the males to outsiders and no regular human really bothers with the difference" or "Beastwomen have their own herds seperated from the males and only meet for ****", would have been much simpler than: "Beastwomen are rare (this again...When aren't females rare GW?), they are more shy (How can anyone afford to be shy in beastmen society? Especially as females are often more aggressive then male ones?), and docile (How can anyone afford to be docile in beastmen society? And female animals are often much deadlier then the male ones.)"

    Peak magic was pre-vortex, since then it has diminished, particularly after the Ogham network was built as well. The talked about in the novella Aenarion - him and Caledor were discussing the risks of the vortex and one of the big ones was it would depower a lot of the Elves’ magic items and mean they couldn’t go toe to toe with greater daemons as easily.

    Since for it to have worked at all the vortex must be extracting faster than the gates are spewing, this means that magic will be generally diminishing as time goes on (particular localised areas aside).

    As for where magic was coming from under the Old Ones, it’s possible the gates were originally set up in part to release raw magic into the world, just in a more controlled manner (perhaps into the geomantic web rather than loose). The way the Paths of The Old Ones were described in Giantslayer and their relationship to the web would support this, as would the implication from Miao’s speech in the trailer that the Old Ones brought magic in its entirety into the world.
    So in short golems were only possible in the relativly short time span between the collapse of the polar gates and the vortex.
    However given how staunch dwarfs are, (bringing out a new rune/machine in just couple of centuries R&D is a bad thing to do, the dawi say) I doubt rune golems would have passed the experimentation phase before the Vortex was established. Except maybe if Grugni and Thrugni came up with them originally. Because what they do, every dwarf sucks up.

    I think this furthers my point. GW created an overcomplicated construct on why rune golems are no longer possible, instead of taking a clean and simple solution. Because their approach creates many rats tails of implications and further questions.
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  • Lord_ZarkovLord_Zarkov Registered Users Posts: 629
    sykall said:

    sykall said:

    Yes it is probably a different type of magic necessary to activate them. E.g. Tomb King constructs are powered by the regular magic, divine blessing and the souls of the deceased. And how terracotta statutes are animated, noone knows currently.

    But honestly, I think this is mostly another case of GW writiing restrictions and coming up with more complicated answers, than really necessary. IIRC one statement was, that the magic sunk to deep. Butwhen was enough magic there?
    I'd say curerntly there is more magic present than during the time of the Old Ones, as magic is spewing forth freely, only to be sucked out by the Vortex. The Old Ones were probably more cautious with letting magic of the warp into the world. Because sucking in to much magic leads to stuff like polar gates exploding, I guess. So for the longest time they would have tried to avoid that.

    And if it is powered by geomancy, aka the magical energies of the planet itself, aka the geomatic web, then when did the magic get lost? When the lizard cities fell? During the Age of Woe? How did the geomantic energy even reach the dwarfs in the first place? Where there lizardmen constructs in dwarfen territories? Did dwarfs at one point knew how to access and channel it akin to Lizardmen, even if indirectly through runes, and that magic was lost too? Could dwarfs repair the geomantic web?

    It would have been much easier to say: "The rites to activate them, or the Runes to make them are lost." That way it is clear, why they do no longer function, without a rats tail of other implications. And if GW would decide dwarfs get the Rune Golems again, they could just say: "Ok now Thorek or else found the runes needed!" Without larger rammifications about the nature of magic or the larger setting in general.

    It is akin to beastwomen really. Saying: "Beastmen females look much like the males to outsiders and no regular human really bothers with the difference" or "Beastwomen have their own herds seperated from the males and only meet for ****", would have been much simpler than: "Beastwomen are rare (this again...When aren't females rare GW?), they are more shy (How can anyone afford to be shy in beastmen society? Especially as females are often more aggressive then male ones?), and docile (How can anyone afford to be docile in beastmen society? And female animals are often much deadlier then the male ones.)"

    Peak magic was pre-vortex, since then it has diminished, particularly after the Ogham network was built as well. The talked about in the novella Aenarion - him and Caledor were discussing the risks of the vortex and one of the big ones was it would depower a lot of the Elves’ magic items and mean they couldn’t go toe to toe with greater daemons as easily.

    Since for it to have worked at all the vortex must be extracting faster than the gates are spewing, this means that magic will be generally diminishing as time goes on (particular localised areas aside).

    As for where magic was coming from under the Old Ones, it’s possible the gates were originally set up in part to release raw magic into the world, just in a more controlled manner (perhaps into the geomantic web rather than loose). The way the Paths of The Old Ones were described in Giantslayer and their relationship to the web would support this, as would the implication from Miao’s speech in the trailer that the Old Ones brought magic in its entirety into the world.
    So in short golems were only possible in the relativly short time span between the collapse of the polar gates and the vortex.
    However given how staunch dwarfs are, (bringing out a new rune/machine in just couple of centuries R&D is a bad thing to do, the dawi say) I doubt rune golems would have passed the experimentation phase before the Vortex was established. Except maybe if Grugni and Thrugni came up with them originally. Because what they do, every dwarf sucks up.

    I think this furthers my point. GW created an overcomplicated construct on why rune golems are no longer possible, instead of taking a clean and simple solution. Because their approach creates many rats tails of implications and further questions.
    Depending on how magic worked before the catastrophe potentially before it as well and probably for a while after the vortex as well before ambient levels drained to a point they no longer worked at all (though probably not as easily). Catastrophe to vortex was still ~1,200 years though.

    I think you’re right with the suggestion the Ancestor Gods came up with them though, most of the great ancient super-rune things seemed to have their involvement (which again implies that magic pre-catastrophe was more abundant than it is post-vortex). They also disappeared around the time of the vortex (Grimnir explicitly, not sure it’s stated exactly when Grungi left, but he was clearly gone by the time of Malekith’s colonisation efforts).

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,614
    edited September 25
    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 15,468
    I don't know why use cathay when tk ones have been there for a while.
    Moneris said:

    Different magic maybe? I think Dwarfs use Earthbound magic to activate the Golems.

    I am not sure what Nehekara and Cathay use to animate statues. But I am sure with a bit of tweaking the Dwarfs could activate them again.

    Yeah i think a imperial engineer did that some where.


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,935
    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    Novels are part of the mainstay lore and are exploring specific events or characters in detail who only get a general overview in the armybooks.
  • MisterSquidMisterSquid Florida, USARegistered Users Posts: 1,634
    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    Exactly, we have no guarantee they're part of Total War: Warhammer canon. This statement could easily have been retconned long ago.
    Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.

    Let it be known that I was foolish enough to doubt UberReptilian, who, in her infinite wisdom, predicted that the Ogre Kingdoms would be the preorder bonus before even the Ogre Mercenary FLC for Warhammer II. This signature will stand as a monument to my shame. Woe upon me!
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
    They are explicitly mentioned in the war of vengence trilogy, where the runelord of Karaz A Karak Ranuld Silverthumb attempts to awake them with 8(?) Anvils of doom and fails, dying in the process.
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  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
    And yes the first one was designed by Thungni
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  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,614
    edited September 25
    Uagrim said:

    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    Novels are part of the mainstay lore and are exploring specific events or characters in detail who only get a general overview in the armybooks.
    If anything, I find novels to be contradictory with the armybooks more often than not. Like they follow the general outline, and then start making stuff up.

    Something like these Rune Golems that exist solely in the novels, is not something I take as being canonical, as the novels, with few exceptions, aren't usually that accurate. Tbf, I haven't read all that many novels, but I would assume that Gotrek and Felix ones would be, as they are the main source on the pair and their exploits. The Horus Heresy novels I presume are made intentionally to explore this part of canon, and are used as a basis for the scenarios and characters they introduce. Malus own books/comics are, again, something specifically intended for this character.

    But with a large section of these novels, their canonicity is questionable even at best of times. The Dreadfleet novel, for example, follows the campaign narrative from the actual book to an extent, but has several events that are vastly different from the rulebook's narrative. I would assume the novel to be the incorrect one. Dawn of War, again, had its own novels, which completely contradict the game itself, if the game itself is canon at all(which, going by later sources concerning the Blood Ravens, the games appear to be canon). Van Hel's book pretty much rewrites his entire lore entry, and the lore entry remains the same even after the publishing of the book. The Red Duke behaves like any other Vampire in the lore of the armybooks, but the novel claims he went insane from killing one of his descendants, as well as having some other inconsistencies.

    Imo, the novels are a lesser form of lore, with some outstanding exceptions. But as a result, something that existed only in the novels, more often than not doesn't appear anywhere else. And these things, the rune golems, solely appear there. Not even any of the mentions of the Dwarfs during the Great Catastrophy makes mention of them.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,739
    Tomb Kings have the realm of souls for their magic needs so there's that. But Cathay's constructs are setting a precedent that needs explaining. (And I'm suspecting this precedent is simply content for the content god)

    On a side note I think the terracotta sentinels are a missed opportunity for infantry sized constructs. We have all sorts of monsters already, but infantry constructs would be quite unique. Although they might add them in the future, content for the content god and all.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,739
    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    But terracotta sentinels are?
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,614

    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    But terracotta sentinels are?
    Magical in nature. And more specifically, probably powered and maintained by powerful wizards.

    The rune golems are apparently reliant on rune magic and some very specific form of magic that has been lost with the passing of the Great Catastrophy. Combined with the fact that knowledge of runes has decayed, and runes rely on magic to be powered, the specific configuration by which these rune golems are powered has been lost and/or made inaccessible.

    It makes me wonder if these Golems could be powered up during a Storm of Magic.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • RevoranRevoran Member Registered Users Posts: 270
    Guys:

    Because the Rune Golems were never an actual unit with rules and a model, their lore was never fully thought through by GW.

    @AWizard_Lizard
    "But Terracotta Sentinels are?"

    They are now. B)
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,935
    Crossil said:

    Uagrim said:

    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    Novels are part of the mainstay lore and are exploring specific events or characters in detail who only get a general overview in the armybooks.
    If anything, I find novels to be contradictory with the armybooks more often than not. Like they follow the general outline, and then start making stuff up.

    Something like these Rune Golems that exist solely in the novels, is not something I take as being canonical, as the novels, with few exceptions, aren't usually that accurate. Tbf, I haven't read all that many novels, but I would assume that Gotrek and Felix ones would be, as they are the main source on the pair and their exploits. The Horus Heresy novels I presume are made intentionally to explore this part of canon, and are used as a basis for the scenarios and characters they introduce. Malus own books/comics are, again, something specifically intended for this character.

    But with a large section of these novels, their canonicity is questionable even at best of times. The Dreadfleet novel, for example, follows the campaign narrative from the actual book to an extent, but has several events that are vastly different from the rulebook's narrative. I would assume the novel to be the incorrect one. Dawn of War, again, had its own novels, which completely contradict the game itself, if the game itself is canon at all(which, going by later sources concerning the Blood Ravens, the games appear to be canon). Van Hel's book pretty much rewrites his entire lore entry, and the lore entry remains the same even after the publishing of the book. The Red Duke behaves like any other Vampire in the lore of the armybooks, but the novel claims he went insane from killing one of his descendants, as well as having some other inconsistencies.

    Imo, the novels are a lesser form of lore, with some outstanding exceptions. But as a result, something that existed only in the novels, more often than not doesn't appear anywhere else. And these things, the rune golems, solely appear there. Not even any of the mentions of the Dwarfs during the Great Catastrophy makes mention of them.
    Novel contradicting army books and even other novels is a thing with GW/BL mostly caused by the issue of multiple writers. The siege of terra has quiet some infamy in that regard. But that doesn't change the lore relevance of the novels.

    Also not being mentioned in an armybook doesn't mean they don't exist or can't be implemented into the game. Else people like you should have been up in arms when they introduced Royal Hippogryph Knights at the latest (because those weren't in the armybook). But GW's canon policy regarding black library is pretty much everything is canon and they make no differentiation between rulebook lore and lore from novels.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,739
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    But terracotta sentinels are?
    Magical in nature. And more specifically, probably powered and maintained by powerful wizards.

    The rune golems are apparently reliant on rune magic and some very specific form of magic that has been lost with the passing of the Great Catastrophy. Combined with the fact that knowledge of runes has decayed, and runes rely on magic to be powered, the specific configuration by which these rune golems are powered has been lost and/or made inaccessible.

    It makes me wonder if these Golems could be powered up during a Storm of Magic.
    I was only responding to golems not being mainstay lore.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Eh, why are we talking about magic golems for Dwarfs? If you want to give them warmechs, just make them fully mechanical.


  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
    edited September 25
    There are two types of golems shiro, Rune Golems and Rune Guardians

    Rune golems AKA Gronti Duraz



    And Rune Guardians

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  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,614
    edited September 25
    Uagrim said:

    Novel contradicting army books and even other novels is a thing with GW/BL mostly caused by the issue of multiple writers. The siege of terra has quiet some infamy in that regard. But that doesn't change the lore relevance of the novels.

    And as I said, it depends on the actual novel.
    Uagrim said:

    Also not being mentioned in an armybook doesn't mean they don't exist or can't be implemented into the game. Else people like you should have been up in arms when they introduced Royal Hippogryph Knights at the latest (because those weren't in the armybook). But GW's canon policy regarding black library is pretty much everything is canon and they make no differentiation between rulebook lore and lore from novels.

    Royal Hippogryph Knights are mentioned in the Core Rulebook of 8th edition. And the reasoning behind making them is simple. Because they had models, both the mounts and the riders.

    Similar to Great Stag Riders, both the mounts and the riders existed in model and there was a mention in Storm of Magic, a TT supplement, with a literal entry for the Great Stags mentioning such formations.

    So no, novels are not a source. There has yet to be a unit derived purely from the novels, as far as I know.

    As for GW's statement "everything said is canon, not everything said is TRUE." So the rune golems might as well not actually exist.

    There are two types of golems shiro, Rune Golems and Rune Guardians

    Rune golems AKA Gronti Duraz


    Fanmade

    And Rune Guardians

    These being RPG only. Aka, another form of questionable canon, and the problem being that CA has not lifted a single unit that was RPG only.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,614
    edited September 25

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Runes vs direct magic.

    Also, rune golems are not really something from the mainstay lore. They're, what, novels only?

    But terracotta sentinels are?
    Magical in nature. And more specifically, probably powered and maintained by powerful wizards.

    The rune golems are apparently reliant on rune magic and some very specific form of magic that has been lost with the passing of the Great Catastrophy. Combined with the fact that knowledge of runes has decayed, and runes rely on magic to be powered, the specific configuration by which these rune golems are powered has been lost and/or made inaccessible.

    It makes me wonder if these Golems could be powered up during a Storm of Magic.
    I was only responding to golems not being mainstay lore.
    Well, **** I don't know about you, but GW making them within the context of making Cathay into a fully fledged race kinda makes it mainstay of the setting, now doesn't it? The Rune Golems having one mention in a novel and nowhere else kinda makes them quetionable in relevance.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,252
    sykall said:

    Yes it is probably a different type of magic necessary to activate them. E.g. Tomb King constructs are powered by the regular magic, divine blessing and the souls of the deceased. And how terracotta statutes are animated, noone knows currently.

    But honestly, I think this is mostly another case of GW writiing restrictions and coming up with more complicated answers, than really necessary. IIRC one statement was, that the magic sunk to deep. Butwhen was enough magic there?
    I'd say curerntly there is more magic present than during the time of the Old Ones, as magic is spewing forth freely, only to be sucked out by the Vortex. The Old Ones were probably more cautious with letting magic of the warp into the world. Because sucking in to much magic leads to stuff like polar gates exploding, I guess. So for the longest time they would have tried to avoid that.

    Dwindling magic isn't only a thing when they describe rune golems. Morghast lore too states that magic gradually became weaker since Nagash created them (fall of Nehekhara) so that all became inanimate. Only during the End Times it became strong enough to reawaken them, as that was pretty much a Storm of Magic on steroids. The last ones "died" long before Sigmar.
    So at some point between -1152 and 0 IC the winds got to weak to sustain the last of the Morghast Archai (who could delay their fate through black, Dharr collecting armor), explicitly through the continued efforts of the Elves (so the Vortex).

    With it all being a continuous thing, the Gronti Duraz could've become non-functional at whatever point GW desired, depending on how much they need exactly. With the War of the Beard starting around -2000 IC they could very well still have been around back then.

    Imho Necrofex Collosi and Tomb Kings constructs get a pass due to the latter being (mainly?) powered by spirits from the soul realm and the Nehekharan gods and the latter only being possible during storms of magic iirc, at the hands of very skilled necromancers. Also, Collosi cut corners by using Dharr and its interactions with corpses.
    We simply don't no enough about Terracotta Sentinels to make any real statement about them. Apparently they might have been created by the Dragon Emperor and he seems to have some very special powers. So let's wait until we learn more about him.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 817
    Crossil said:

    Uagrim said:

    Novel contradicting army books and even other novels is a thing with GW/BL mostly caused by the issue of multiple writers. The siege of terra has quiet some infamy in that regard. But that doesn't change the lore relevance of the novels.

    And as I said, it depends on the actual novel.
    Uagrim said:

    Also not being mentioned in an armybook doesn't mean they don't exist or can't be implemented into the game. Else people like you should have been up in arms when they introduced Royal Hippogryph Knights at the latest (because those weren't in the armybook). But GW's canon policy regarding black library is pretty much everything is canon and they make no differentiation between rulebook lore and lore from novels.

    Royal Hippogryph Knights are mentioned in the Core Rulebook of 8th edition. And the reasoning behind making them is simple. Because they had models, both the mounts and the riders.

    Similar to Great Stag Riders, both the mounts and the riders existed in model and there was a mention in Storm of Magic, a TT supplement, with a literal entry for the Great Stags mentioning such formations.

    So no, novels are not a source. There has yet to be a unit derived purely from the novels, as far as I know.

    As for GW's statement "everything said is canon, not everything said is TRUE." So the rune golems might as well not actually exist.

    There are two types of golems shiro, Rune Golems and Rune Guardians

    Rune golems AKA Gronti Duraz


    Fanmade

    And Rune Guardians

    These being RPG only. Aka, another form of questionable canon, and the problem being that CA has not lifted a single unit that was RPG only.
    just because they didnt have models it doesnt mean they arnt cannon, especially if they are present in the War of Vengence, one of the most important bits of lore for 2 old established races
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N

  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,935
    Crossil said:

    Uagrim said:

    Novel contradicting army books and even other novels is a thing with GW/BL mostly caused by the issue of multiple writers. The siege of terra has quiet some infamy in that regard. But that doesn't change the lore relevance of the novels.

    And as I said, it depends on the actual novel.
    Uagrim said:

    Also not being mentioned in an armybook doesn't mean they don't exist or can't be implemented into the game. Else people like you should have been up in arms when they introduced Royal Hippogryph Knights at the latest (because those weren't in the armybook). But GW's canon policy regarding black library is pretty much everything is canon and they make no differentiation between rulebook lore and lore from novels.

    Royal Hippogryph Knights are mentioned in the Core Rulebook of 8th edition. And the reasoning behind making them is simple. Because they had models, both the mounts and the riders.

    Similar to Great Stag Riders, both the mounts and the riders existed in model and there was a mention in Storm of Magic, a TT supplement, with a literal entry for the Great Stags mentioning such formations.

    So no, novels are not a source. There has yet to be a unit derived purely from the novels, as far as I know.

    As for GW's statement "everything said is canon, not everything said is TRUE." So the rune golems might as well not actually exist.
    It does not depend on the novel and even in novel contradicting some parts of the lore other parts aren't automatically discarded.

    Your source for the RHK?

    Yes not everything is true but we do not even have a hint of that not being the case for the rune golem and as far as we know they still stand in the depths of Karaz-a-karak.

    Plus its not like these are the only warmchines the dwarfs should have many of the are included in the army book.



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