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My Take on Thematic Army Compositions - High Elves

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  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,937

    Oh man, High Elf lore means a field day for this type of list building. There's so many units with such a wide host of origins and allegiances. So as usual I'll try to comment on that and to imform on it to the best of my ability.

    So let's start with Tyrion the poster child. And there's a lot going on with him.
    First of all from all the LL he's kind of the representative of the typical princes and nobility, by station but not personality. As Ulthuans finest knight - proven by winning the tournament for the honor of being Allarielle's protector - he's ideal for Silver Helms as he's basically one of their social class. It also means he's the ideal leader for the conventional millitary, which encompasses the citizen militia - mainly spearmen and archers, but technically rangers too (no great fit though) - in addition to those mounted pricks.
    Next he's the chosen champion of both Finnubar the Phoenix King and the aformentioned Everqueen. With Finnubar allocating his personal guard - all the Chrace units basically - you'd naturally find them with his mandated warrior.
    But it doesn't end there, as Tyrion is the Heir of Aenarion - something he mentions once in a while :wink: - chosen of Asuryan. So all Asuryan themed units, which encompasses everything with phoenix in the name fit as well.
    Finally he's boss of Lothern in the game. Which is kinda funny as it is the most cosmopolitan place in all of Ulthuan. Millitarily the city is unique due to the Sea Guard. Those guys serve as both the local militia as well as the High Elf navies troops, running basically all the overseas business. That includes protecting the remaining colonies. Eagle Claws are distinctly Sea Guard btw, although most kingdoms use them.

    Teclis luckily is muuuuch simpler. He's the High Loremaster of the White Tower, which means he presides over all Swordmasters, Mages and Loremasters. All belong to "his" institution. With his outward focus it could also be argued that he'd be a better fit for the Sea Guard than his Brother whilst not having much to do with the main defenders of the Island, militia and Silver Helms.
    Regarding your list, I don't think he really has any special connection with either Dragons or Asuryany stuff either way as Dragons aren't really that connected with Asur nobility outside Caledor. For the most part they are simply their own masters and allies of Ulthuan's Elves.

    I can't say much about Arielle beyond the obvious. The Hand Maidens and Sisters are obviously her personal troops and attendants and the spirits are obviously her special mechanic. Avelorn has a great foresters tradition so Rangers are probably the majority of its troops. The Silverin Guard on the other hand are not a great fit, as they are the defenders of Tor Yvresse. Silver Helms might work though, as every elven noble and their dad would probably die to get a shot at serving her. She actually has some sort of aura enchanting everyone around her.

    Alith is similarly simple, as in the lore he pretty much only leads the shadow warriors (and stalkers, which are their officers) and exists completely outside of the Asur's hierachy and political system of allegiances. Factually he's entirely independent of their society. So yeah, put in whatever works. There might actually be some sympathy between Naggarythe and Elyrion, as they worked together during the Sundering. IIRC Alith was actually rescued by a bunch of Reavers and they live a similar lifestyle to his shadow warriors.

    Now we get to Bruce Way... Eltharion.
    Yvresse is kind of interesting for having a unique martial tradition, that never got any proper representation on the tabletop. Silverin Guard are the guardians of its capital - just a bunch of spearmen with special, really old and magical armor - and Miststalkers are it's rangers - which are bow n' sword rather than dual sword in the lore btw. Ofc, the rest of his unique units are Yvresse specific too.
    Moon Dragons are just medium aged, bit I like your Batman reference.
    I'm not sure about their seafaring traditions. They are a coastal Kingdom but the magical mist and moving Islands make their waters pretty much unavigable iirc. Was Cothique the non-Lothern seafarer province? Anyway all that stuff is better at defending the coastline than naval forces anyway. Except of course super fat Goblins get really lucky that is.

    Lastly we've got the haughty guy from the province of arrogant pricks amongst the most down looking of all races. That characterisation of Imrik should say a lot! Still He actually get's stuff done. It's just that he and his kin don't like the rest of Ulthuan and that's mutual. So don't expect anything with a provincial name that isn't Caledor in his army. Chariots, Shadow Warriors, Reavers, Sea Guard, Sisters, Handmaidens and all the chracian lion stuff are basically out. That leaves mostly Dragons and Dragon Princes as that's what he's all about. The latter are basically Caledors Silver Helms. Back in the day they used to actually ride dragons but those are almost all napping now, as the world has gotten to warm (even WH has that problem!!!). So now they dress up their horses as dragons whilst still being certain of being something better.
    It's kinda hard to build an army around that though. I mean every province has Archers, Spearmen and maybe a few rangers.
    One thing about your list are the White Lions and Chariots. As mentioned earlier those are the Phoenix King's body guard and Imrik (all of Caledor really) isn't on good terms with that office at all.


    I hope that helps and informs!!

    A few points I wish to address:

    Tyrion

    Only the Phoenix King can command the Phoenix Guard.

    Teclis

    Dragons are more or less connected with Asur in general.

    Eltharion

    Yvresse has Rangers too, in fact, if I remember correctly, the only named group of them (Enador's Rangers) comes from the said kingdom.

    Imrik

    I wouldn't dismiss Reaver Knights entirely. After all, it was Imrik's namesake, the first Imrik of Caledor who named them such. And the same goes for the White Lions, who were made the Phoenix King's bodyguards by Caledor I the Conqueror. The White Lions are often send to keep nobles safe. In TW:WH Imrik refers to himself as 'the Son of the Phoenix' and 'the Last Phoenix', emphasizing his heritage. Both units can be used as symbols. As for for the Lord of Dragon's standing with the Phoenix King: in ET we read that Finubar spoke well of Imrik.
  • EdhwenEdhwen Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited July 2021

    Oh man, High Elf lore means a field day for this type of list building. There's so many units with such a wide host of origins and allegiances. So as usual I'll try to comment on that and to imform on it to the best of my ability.

    So let's start with Tyrion the poster child. And there's a lot going on with him.
    First of all from all the LL he's kind of the representative of the typical princes and nobility, by station but not personality. As Ulthuans finest knight - proven by winning the tournament for the honor of being Allarielle's protector - he's ideal for Silver Helms as he's basically one of their social class. It also means he's the ideal leader for the conventional millitary, which encompasses the citizen militia - mainly spearmen and archers, but technically rangers too (no great fit though) - in addition to those mounted pricks.
    Next he's the chosen champion of both Finnubar the Phoenix King and the aformentioned Everqueen. With Finnubar allocating his personal guard - all the Chrace units basically - you'd naturally find them with his mandated warrior.
    But it doesn't end there, as Tyrion is the Heir of Aenarion - something he mentions once in a while :wink: - chosen of Asuryan. So all Asuryan themed units, which encompasses everything with phoenix in the name fit as well.
    Finally he's boss of Lothern in the game. Which is kinda funny as it is the most cosmopolitan place in all of Ulthuan. Millitarily the city is unique due to the Sea Guard. Those guys serve as both the local militia as well as the High Elf navies troops, running basically all the overseas business. That includes protecting the remaining colonies. Eagle Claws are distinctly Sea Guard btw, although most kingdoms use them.

    Teclis luckily is muuuuch simpler. He's the High Loremaster of the White Tower, which means he presides over all Swordmasters, Mages and Loremasters. All belong to "his" institution. With his outward focus it could also be argued that he'd be a better fit for the Sea Guard than his Brother whilst not having much to do with the main defenders of the Island, militia and Silver Helms.
    Regarding your list, I don't think he really has any special connection with either Dragons or Asuryany stuff either way as Dragons aren't really that connected with Asur nobility outside Caledor. For the most part they are simply their own masters and allies of Ulthuan's Elves.

    I can't say much about Arielle beyond the obvious. The Hand Maidens and Sisters are obviously her personal troops and attendants and the spirits are obviously her special mechanic. Avelorn has a great foresters tradition so Rangers are probably the majority of its troops. The Silverin Guard on the other hand are not a great fit, as they are the defenders of Tor Yvresse. Silver Helms might work though, as every elven noble and their dad would probably die to get a shot at serving her. She actually has some sort of aura enchanting everyone around her.

    Alith is similarly simple, as in the lore he pretty much only leads the shadow warriors (and stalkers, which are their officers) and exists completely outside of the Asur's hierachy and political system of allegiances. Factually he's entirely independent of their society. So yeah, put in whatever works. There might actually be some sympathy between Naggarythe and Elyrion, as they worked together during the Sundering. IIRC Alith was actually rescued by a bunch of Reavers and they live a similar lifestyle to his shadow warriors.

    Now we get to Bruce Way... Eltharion.
    Yvresse is kind of interesting for having a unique martial tradition, that never got any proper representation on the tabletop. Silverin Guard are the guardians of its capital - just a bunch of spearmen with special, really old and magical armor - and Miststalkers are it's rangers - which are bow n' sword rather than dual sword in the lore btw. Ofc, the rest of his unique units are Yvresse specific too.
    Moon Dragons are just medium aged, bit I like your Batman reference.
    I'm not sure about their seafaring traditions. They are a coastal Kingdom but the magical mist and moving Islands make their waters pretty much unavigable iirc. Was Cothique the non-Lothern seafarer province? Anyway all that stuff is better at defending the coastline than naval forces anyway. Except of course super fat Goblins get really lucky that is.

    Lastly we've got the haughty guy from the province of arrogant pricks amongst the most down looking of all races. That characterisation of Imrik should say a lot! Still He actually get's stuff done. It's just that he and his kin don't like the rest of Ulthuan and that's mutual. So don't expect anything with a provincial name that isn't Caledor in his army. Chariots, Shadow Warriors, Reavers, Sea Guard, Sisters, Handmaidens and all the chracian lion stuff are basically out. That leaves mostly Dragons and Dragon Princes as that's what he's all about. The latter are basically Caledors Silver Helms. Back in the day they used to actually ride dragons but those are almost all napping now, as the world has gotten to warm (even WH has that problem!!!). So now they dress up their horses as dragons whilst still being certain of being something better.
    It's kinda hard to build an army around that though. I mean every province has Archers, Spearmen and maybe a few rangers.
    One thing about your list are the White Lions and Chariots. As mentioned earlier those are the Phoenix King's body guard and Imrik (all of Caledor really) isn't on good terms with that office at all.


    I hope that helps and informs!!

    A few points I wish to address:

    Tyrion

    Only the Phoenix King can command the Phoenix Guard.

    Teclis

    Dragons are more or less connected with Asur in general.

    Eltharion

    Yvresse has Rangers too, in fact, if I remember correctly, the only named group of them (Enador's Rangers) comes from the said kingdom.

    Imrik

    I wouldn't dismiss Reaver Knights entirely. After all, it was Imrik's namesake, the first Imrik of Caledor who named them such. And the same goes for the White Lions, who were made the Phoenix King's bodyguards by Caledor I the Conqueror. The White Lions are often send to keep nobles safe. In TW:WH Imrik refers to himself as 'the Son of the Phoenix' and 'the Last Phoenix', emphasizing his heritage. Both units can be used as symbols. As for for the Lord of Dragon's standing with the Phoenix King: in ET we read that Finubar spoke well of Imrik.
    If I remember correctly the Phoenix guards respond only to their captain (Caradryan) and their God (Asuryan) not to the Phoenix King.
    At least in the novels. In the codex(8th edition) is different.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,937
    Edhwen said:

    Oh man, High Elf lore means a field day for this type of list building. There's so many units with such a wide host of origins and allegiances. So as usual I'll try to comment on that and to imform on it to the best of my ability.

    So let's start with Tyrion the poster child. And there's a lot going on with him.
    First of all from all the LL he's kind of the representative of the typical princes and nobility, by station but not personality. As Ulthuans finest knight - proven by winning the tournament for the honor of being Allarielle's protector - he's ideal for Silver Helms as he's basically one of their social class. It also means he's the ideal leader for the conventional millitary, which encompasses the citizen militia - mainly spearmen and archers, but technically rangers too (no great fit though) - in addition to those mounted pricks.
    Next he's the chosen champion of both Finnubar the Phoenix King and the aformentioned Everqueen. With Finnubar allocating his personal guard - all the Chrace units basically - you'd naturally find them with his mandated warrior.
    But it doesn't end there, as Tyrion is the Heir of Aenarion - something he mentions once in a while :wink: - chosen of Asuryan. So all Asuryan themed units, which encompasses everything with phoenix in the name fit as well.
    Finally he's boss of Lothern in the game. Which is kinda funny as it is the most cosmopolitan place in all of Ulthuan. Millitarily the city is unique due to the Sea Guard. Those guys serve as both the local militia as well as the High Elf navies troops, running basically all the overseas business. That includes protecting the remaining colonies. Eagle Claws are distinctly Sea Guard btw, although most kingdoms use them.

    Teclis luckily is muuuuch simpler. He's the High Loremaster of the White Tower, which means he presides over all Swordmasters, Mages and Loremasters. All belong to "his" institution. With his outward focus it could also be argued that he'd be a better fit for the Sea Guard than his Brother whilst not having much to do with the main defenders of the Island, militia and Silver Helms.
    Regarding your list, I don't think he really has any special connection with either Dragons or Asuryany stuff either way as Dragons aren't really that connected with Asur nobility outside Caledor. For the most part they are simply their own masters and allies of Ulthuan's Elves.

    I can't say much about Arielle beyond the obvious. The Hand Maidens and Sisters are obviously her personal troops and attendants and the spirits are obviously her special mechanic. Avelorn has a great foresters tradition so Rangers are probably the majority of its troops. The Silverin Guard on the other hand are not a great fit, as they are the defenders of Tor Yvresse. Silver Helms might work though, as every elven noble and their dad would probably die to get a shot at serving her. She actually has some sort of aura enchanting everyone around her.

    Alith is similarly simple, as in the lore he pretty much only leads the shadow warriors (and stalkers, which are their officers) and exists completely outside of the Asur's hierachy and political system of allegiances. Factually he's entirely independent of their society. So yeah, put in whatever works. There might actually be some sympathy between Naggarythe and Elyrion, as they worked together during the Sundering. IIRC Alith was actually rescued by a bunch of Reavers and they live a similar lifestyle to his shadow warriors.

    Now we get to Bruce Way... Eltharion.
    Yvresse is kind of interesting for having a unique martial tradition, that never got any proper representation on the tabletop. Silverin Guard are the guardians of its capital - just a bunch of spearmen with special, really old and magical armor - and Miststalkers are it's rangers - which are bow n' sword rather than dual sword in the lore btw. Ofc, the rest of his unique units are Yvresse specific too.
    Moon Dragons are just medium aged, bit I like your Batman reference.
    I'm not sure about their seafaring traditions. They are a coastal Kingdom but the magical mist and moving Islands make their waters pretty much unavigable iirc. Was Cothique the non-Lothern seafarer province? Anyway all that stuff is better at defending the coastline than naval forces anyway. Except of course super fat Goblins get really lucky that is.

    Lastly we've got the haughty guy from the province of arrogant pricks amongst the most down looking of all races. That characterisation of Imrik should say a lot! Still He actually get's stuff done. It's just that he and his kin don't like the rest of Ulthuan and that's mutual. So don't expect anything with a provincial name that isn't Caledor in his army. Chariots, Shadow Warriors, Reavers, Sea Guard, Sisters, Handmaidens and all the chracian lion stuff are basically out. That leaves mostly Dragons and Dragon Princes as that's what he's all about. The latter are basically Caledors Silver Helms. Back in the day they used to actually ride dragons but those are almost all napping now, as the world has gotten to warm (even WH has that problem!!!). So now they dress up their horses as dragons whilst still being certain of being something better.
    It's kinda hard to build an army around that though. I mean every province has Archers, Spearmen and maybe a few rangers.
    One thing about your list are the White Lions and Chariots. As mentioned earlier those are the Phoenix King's body guard and Imrik (all of Caledor really) isn't on good terms with that office at all.


    I hope that helps and informs!!

    A few points I wish to address:

    Tyrion

    Only the Phoenix King can command the Phoenix Guard.

    Teclis

    Dragons are more or less connected with Asur in general.

    Eltharion

    Yvresse has Rangers too, in fact, if I remember correctly, the only named group of them (Enador's Rangers) comes from the said kingdom.

    Imrik

    I wouldn't dismiss Reaver Knights entirely. After all, it was Imrik's namesake, the first Imrik of Caledor who named them such. And the same goes for the White Lions, who were made the Phoenix King's bodyguards by Caledor I the Conqueror. The White Lions are often send to keep nobles safe. In TW:WH Imrik refers to himself as 'the Son of the Phoenix' and 'the Last Phoenix', emphasizing his heritage. Both units can be used as symbols. As for for the Lord of Dragon's standing with the Phoenix King: in ET we read that Finubar spoke well of Imrik.
    If I remember correctly the Phoenix guards respond only to their captain (Caradryan) and their God (Asuryan) not to the Phoenix King.
    At least in the novels. In the codex(8th edition) is different.
    Yes, it's from 8ED AB.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    1 Sure, thats a perspective but Tyrion is a hero of "the people" and he has the upkeep reduction for the cheap units because that's his "theme", as seen by developers. Also, his army gets almost free of upkeep and thats nice. It means that you can have one army more somewhere else or reinforcing Tyrion. However, he's godlike even with spearmen alone, so there's not much need for that.

    2 The thing is the shadow warriors/walkers are much better than reavers. If you have more of them, you have greater firepower and dont need that extra mobility. The shadow soldiers should be the backbone of AAs army. IMO, what synergizes the best with them is either Lotherns (shields, ofc) for the wall to fall back behind or flying single entities to stop and harass the enemy.

    3 IMO, Chrace has nothing to do with Caledor. That one lions units is just a filler. Imrik has powerful boosts for the dragons and dragon princes. Taking anything else to the army is handicapping yourself. Personally, I prefer to have a half stack of Imrik + unique dragons + heroes than putting some units I will have to babysit.

    Sorry, man, if I sound aggressive or sth. No offense. Its just that my idea of thematic armies is following the unique buffs/reductions and choosing units from only two (red line skills) categories. Then I get the most satisfying thematic armies for my purpose. Your ideas is just like different units all over the place. But nvm, have fun any way you can and want. Peace ✌🏻
    I respect your reasons for your builds, absolutely. You're more about min/maxing, which is more ideal for harder difficulties, while I'm more about roster utilization, which in previous posts I've fully admitted may not be ideal for harder campaign settings. My thing is sort of like this: if I don't use rangers with Alith Anar, then I won't ever use them with any LL, and I enjoy trying to use as many units in a roster as possible while still trying to make them feel appropriate on some level.

    Also, I don't really address this ever, but my lists are the eventual builds that I'd have in the campaign. The early and even mid-game builds for the LL's will look different, and I'd certainly use the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has until it was no longer relevant.

    I don't think that you're aggressive; you're just stating a different opinion, albeit bluntly lol. I still find your builds interesting even though they're not what I would pick, and I imagine that you read my posts even though you know that you'll likely disagree because different perspectives can be refreshing in the sense that they either reinforce your own or make you consider something that you previously may not have. If I serve to reinforce, then so be it!
    Gameplay wise rangers fit much more for Tyrion than AA. Especially that they are rangers just in name. They have little foresty flavor. Just saying

    I am a bit curious: do you use the red skills in your builds? The blue skills?
    I don't invest that much in the blue line, maybe enough for lightning strike but not always. In the red line I'll get the buffs for my core units, but if I only have two of a unit in an army, I may not invest in their associated buff. Most of the points go into the red and yellow trees, but I also rarely max out the yellow tree for LL's. I get almost all unique "skills" for the lord but there are exceptions. I don't often find myself lacking points
    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    1 Sure, thats a perspective but Tyrion is a hero of "the people" and he has the upkeep reduction for the cheap units because that's his "theme", as seen by developers. Also, his army gets almost free of upkeep and thats nice. It means that you can have one army more somewhere else or reinforcing Tyrion. However, he's godlike even with spearmen alone, so there's not much need for that.

    2 The thing is the shadow warriors/walkers are much better than reavers. If you have more of them, you have greater firepower and dont need that extra mobility. The shadow soldiers should be the backbone of AAs army. IMO, what synergizes the best with them is either Lotherns (shields, ofc) for the wall to fall back behind or flying single entities to stop and harass the enemy.

    3 IMO, Chrace has nothing to do with Caledor. That one lions units is just a filler. Imrik has powerful boosts for the dragons and dragon princes. Taking anything else to the army is handicapping yourself. Personally, I prefer to have a half stack of Imrik + unique dragons + heroes than putting some units I will have to babysit.

    Sorry, man, if I sound aggressive or sth. No offense. Its just that my idea of thematic armies is following the unique buffs/reductions and choosing units from only two (red line skills) categories. Then I get the most satisfying thematic armies for my purpose. Your ideas is just like different units all over the place. But nvm, have fun any way you can and want. Peace ✌🏻
    I respect your reasons for your builds, absolutely. You're more about min/maxing, which is more ideal for harder difficulties, while I'm more about roster utilization, which in previous posts I've fully admitted may not be ideal for harder campaign settings. My thing is sort of like this: if I don't use rangers with Alith Anar, then I won't ever use them with any LL, and I enjoy trying to use as many units in a roster as possible while still trying to make them feel appropriate on some level.

    Also, I don't really address this ever, but my lists are the eventual builds that I'd have in the campaign. The early and even mid-game builds for the LL's will look different, and I'd certainly use the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has until it was no longer relevant.

    I don't think that you're aggressive; you're just stating a different opinion, albeit bluntly lol. I still find your builds interesting even though they're not what I would pick, and I imagine that you read my posts even though you know that you'll likely disagree because different perspectives can be refreshing in the sense that they either reinforce your own or make you consider something that you previously may not have. If I serve to reinforce, then so be it!
    Gameplay wise rangers fit much more for Tyrion than AA. Especially that they are rangers just in name. They have little foresty flavor. Just saying

    I am a bit curious: do you use the red skills in your builds? The blue skills?
    For skills, I don't invest too heavily in blue, maybe enough to get lightning strike but not always. I always snag the unique skills for a lord in the yellow tree, but if they are a hybrid lord, then I generally just pick one tree and compensate with a contrasting hero. Most of my builds get 2-3 three red skill line buffs in the first segment, but that is usually condensed into 1-2 in the second segment, so it's not too much of a difference really. I don't usually max the generic yellow line with LL's; they're so versatile that spreading the points around results in better utility. I will often max a yellow line with generic lords, though.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    I totally didn't realize that I had already responded to the skill tree question haha
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458

    Oh man, High Elf lore means a field day for this type of list building. There's so many units with such a wide host of origins and allegiances. So as usual I'll try to comment on that and to imform on it to the best of my ability.

    So let's start with Tyrion the poster child. And there's a lot going on with him.
    First of all from all the LL he's kind of the representative of the typical princes and nobility, by station but not personality. As Ulthuans finest knight - proven by winning the tournament for the honor of being Allarielle's protector - he's ideal for Silver Helms as he's basically one of their social class. It also means he's the ideal leader for the conventional millitary, which encompasses the citizen militia - mainly spearmen and archers, but technically rangers too (no great fit though) - in addition to those mounted pricks.
    Next he's the chosen champion of both Finnubar the Phoenix King and the aformentioned Everqueen. With Finnubar allocating his personal guard - all the Chrace units basically - you'd naturally find them with his mandated warrior.
    But it doesn't end there, as Tyrion is the Heir of Aenarion - something he mentions once in a while :wink: - chosen of Asuryan. So all Asuryan themed units, which encompasses everything with phoenix in the name fit as well.
    Finally he's boss of Lothern in the game. Which is kinda funny as it is the most cosmopolitan place in all of Ulthuan. Millitarily the city is unique due to the Sea Guard. Those guys serve as both the local militia as well as the High Elf navies troops, running basically all the overseas business. That includes protecting the remaining colonies. Eagle Claws are distinctly Sea Guard btw, although most kingdoms use them.

    Teclis luckily is muuuuch simpler. He's the High Loremaster of the White Tower, which means he presides over all Swordmasters, Mages and Loremasters. All belong to "his" institution. With his outward focus it could also be argued that he'd be a better fit for the Sea Guard than his Brother whilst not having much to do with the main defenders of the Island, militia and Silver Helms.
    Regarding your list, I don't think he really has any special connection with either Dragons or Asuryany stuff either way as Dragons aren't really that connected with Asur nobility outside Caledor. For the most part they are simply their own masters and allies of Ulthuan's Elves.

    I can't say much about Arielle beyond the obvious. The Hand Maidens and Sisters are obviously her personal troops and attendants and the spirits are obviously her special mechanic. Avelorn has a great foresters tradition so Rangers are probably the majority of its troops. The Silverin Guard on the other hand are not a great fit, as they are the defenders of Tor Yvresse. Silver Helms might work though, as every elven noble and their dad would probably die to get a shot at serving her. She actually has some sort of aura enchanting everyone around her.

    Alith is similarly simple, as in the lore he pretty much only leads the shadow warriors (and stalkers, which are their officers) and exists completely outside of the Asur's hierachy and political system of allegiances. Factually he's entirely independent of their society. So yeah, put in whatever works. There might actually be some sympathy between Naggarythe and Elyrion, as they worked together during the Sundering. IIRC Alith was actually rescued by a bunch of Reavers and they live a similar lifestyle to his shadow warriors.

    Now we get to Bruce Way... Eltharion.
    Yvresse is kind of interesting for having a unique martial tradition, that never got any proper representation on the tabletop. Silverin Guard are the guardians of its capital - just a bunch of spearmen with special, really old and magical armor - and Miststalkers are it's rangers - which are bow n' sword rather than dual sword in the lore btw. Ofc, the rest of his unique units are Yvresse specific too.
    Moon Dragons are just medium aged, bit I like your Batman reference.
    I'm not sure about their seafaring traditions. They are a coastal Kingdom but the magical mist and moving Islands make their waters pretty much unavigable iirc. Was Cothique the non-Lothern seafarer province? Anyway all that stuff is better at defending the coastline than naval forces anyway. Except of course super fat Goblins get really lucky that is.

    Lastly we've got the haughty guy from the province of arrogant pricks amongst the most down looking of all races. That characterisation of Imrik should say a lot! Still He actually get's stuff done. It's just that he and his kin don't like the rest of Ulthuan and that's mutual. So don't expect anything with a provincial name that isn't Caledor in his army. Chariots, Shadow Warriors, Reavers, Sea Guard, Sisters, Handmaidens and all the chracian lion stuff are basically out. That leaves mostly Dragons and Dragon Princes as that's what he's all about. The latter are basically Caledors Silver Helms. Back in the day they used to actually ride dragons but those are almost all napping now, as the world has gotten to warm (even WH has that problem!!!). So now they dress up their horses as dragons whilst still being certain of being something better.
    It's kinda hard to build an army around that though. I mean every province has Archers, Spearmen and maybe a few rangers.
    One thing about your list are the White Lions and Chariots. As mentioned earlier those are the Phoenix King's body guard and Imrik (all of Caledor really) isn't on good terms with that office at all.


    I hope that helps and informs!!

    In-depth and helpful as always, thank you. I'm off to work for the next 11+ hours, but maybe I'll have energy to come home and make some changes later on. I see that some are due!
  • mulrichmulrich Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 33
    Thank you for these, GoldfishLord.

    I have two questions though:
    1) For Tyrion, do you mean "White Lions of Chrace x4" instead of "War Lions of Chrace x4"? It seems that you do because you put the Puremane Company in there.
    2) Have you thought about including Alastar the White Lion in this? While not a legendary lord, he does start out as immortal and he has unique bonuses for White Lions of Chrace, war lions and lion chariots.
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    edited October 2021
    I'll bite.

    So Chrace is mostly a wooden land. So this would mean Rangers are fine (so that your melee units are not just White Lions). Spearmen are also fine but a bit basic.

    They are also known for their Archers. But Sisters of Averlorn, Shadow Warriors and Lothern Sea Guards aren't that indicated because more related to other Elven Kingdoms. So I'd say Armoured Archers should represent that side well enough.

    On top of that, they also use Great Eagles to watch the mountain passes. A Noble on Great Eagle wouldn't be out of place.

    Finally, they are known hunters so for the lore of magic they should use, I recommend Beasts. Light, Life or potentially Dark (some groves are corrupted due to Dark Elves infiltration) should be ok lores of magic. Metal and Fire do not fit a woodland faction.

    So I would say:
    Alastar the White Lion on White Lion Charriot (what else?)
    Noble on Eagle
    Mage (Beasts) on Elven Steed or Ithilmar Charriot

    3 White Lions of Chrace
    1 Pureman Company (white Lions of Chrace RoR)
    2 Rangers (could be removed for 1 additional archer and 1 white Lion unit. But I like their Stalk + anti-infantry focus)
    3 Archers Light Armour

    2 War Lions of Chrace
    1 Rahagra's Pride (War Lions of Chrace)
    3 White Lions Charriots

    2 Great Eagles

    I like 3 Lion packs and 3 Lion chariots so that the chariots charge first and then the Lions munch the unit on the flank or the rear.

    Because I know @GoldfishLord likes to know about this, Alaster special tree buffs White Lions (infantry), White Lions Chariots and War Lions by a significant amount, that is why it's more than half the army here. :smile:

    What would the more learned elven fans think about this?
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    Ah I forgot something.

    A Loremaster of Hoeth with the Bladelord trait: -20% upkeep/ +10 charge bonus for White Lions of Chrace could be considered. The customed lore they have would be thematically ok I think. However, I think it would be worthwhile only if the number of White Lions is increased (removing the Eagles and Rangers for example).
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,679
    MiniaAr said:

    I'll bite.

    So Chrace is mostly a wooden land. So this would mean Rangers are fine (so that your melee units are not just White Lions). Spearmen are also fine but a bit basic.

    They are also known for their Archers. But Sisters of Averlorn, Shadow Warriors and Lothern Sea Guards aren't that indicated because more related to other Elven Kingdoms. So I'd say Armoured Archers should represent that side well enough.

    On top of that, they also use Great Eagles to watch the mountain passes. A Noble on Great Eagle wouldn't be out of place.

    Finally, they are known hunters so for the lore of magic they should use, I recommend Beasts. Light, Life or potentially Dark (some groves are corrupted due to Dark Elves infiltration) should be ok lores of magic. Metal and Fire do not fit a woodland faction.

    So I would say:
    Alastar the White Lion on White Lion Charriot (what else?)
    Noble on Eagle
    Mage (Beasts) on Elven Steed or Ithilmar Charriot

    3 White Lions of Chrace
    1 Pureman Company (white Lions of Chrace RoR)
    2 Rangers (could be removed for 1 additional archer and 1 white Lion unit. But I like their Stalk + anti-infantry focus)
    3 Archers Light Armour

    2 War Lions of Chrace
    1 Rahagra's Pride (War Lions of Chrace)
    3 White Lions Charriots

    2 Great Eagles

    I like 3 Lion packs and 3 Lion chariots so that the chariots charge first and then the Lions munch the unit on the flank or the rear.

    Because I know @GoldfishLord likes to know about this, Alaster special tree buffs White Lions (infantry), White Lions Chariots and War Lions by a significant amount, that is why it's more than half the army here. :smile:

    What would the more learned elven fans think about this?

    The issue here is that - as a white lion - Alastar doesn't represent the kingdom of Chrace. They are the Phoenix King's bodyguard they belong to the phoenix court and are stationed in Lothern. Ultimately those guys are from Chrace but not of it.
  • BloodydaggerBloodydagger Registered Users Posts: 4,591
    Wait, Hand of the Shadow Crown can be embedded into Alith Anars army now? Or is that a mod?
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786

    MiniaAr said:

    I'll bite.

    So Chrace is mostly a wooden land. So this would mean Rangers are fine (so that your melee units are not just White Lions). Spearmen are also fine but a bit basic.

    They are also known for their Archers. But Sisters of Averlorn, Shadow Warriors and Lothern Sea Guards aren't that indicated because more related to other Elven Kingdoms. So I'd say Armoured Archers should represent that side well enough.

    On top of that, they also use Great Eagles to watch the mountain passes. A Noble on Great Eagle wouldn't be out of place.

    Finally, they are known hunters so for the lore of magic they should use, I recommend Beasts. Light, Life or potentially Dark (some groves are corrupted due to Dark Elves infiltration) should be ok lores of magic. Metal and Fire do not fit a woodland faction.

    So I would say:
    Alastar the White Lion on White Lion Charriot (what else?)
    Noble on Eagle
    Mage (Beasts) on Elven Steed or Ithilmar Charriot

    3 White Lions of Chrace
    1 Pureman Company (white Lions of Chrace RoR)
    2 Rangers (could be removed for 1 additional archer and 1 white Lion unit. But I like their Stalk + anti-infantry focus)
    3 Archers Light Armour

    2 War Lions of Chrace
    1 Rahagra's Pride (War Lions of Chrace)
    3 White Lions Charriots

    2 Great Eagles

    I like 3 Lion packs and 3 Lion chariots so that the chariots charge first and then the Lions munch the unit on the flank or the rear.

    Because I know @GoldfishLord likes to know about this, Alaster special tree buffs White Lions (infantry), White Lions Chariots and War Lions by a significant amount, that is why it's more than half the army here. :smile:

    What would the more learned elven fans think about this?

    The issue here is that - as a white lion - Alastar doesn't represent the kingdom of Chrace. They are the Phoenix King's bodyguard they belong to the phoenix court and are stationed in Lothern. Ultimately those guys are from Chrace but not of it.
    Come on, you are going to do me dirty like this? :s
    Yes, you're right, from Chrace not of Chrace. A White Lion army would remove the archers and eagles, and noble, and replace it by more White Lions infantry and chariots.
    What I proposed is more a Chrace army that can be lead by a Prince with the white lion buffing trait.

    I just like armies with usually a bit more than 3 different units in them, but you've got a point.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,679
    MiniaAr said:

    MiniaAr said:

    I'll bite.

    So Chrace is mostly a wooden land. So this would mean Rangers are fine (so that your melee units are not just White Lions). Spearmen are also fine but a bit basic.

    They are also known for their Archers. But Sisters of Averlorn, Shadow Warriors and Lothern Sea Guards aren't that indicated because more related to other Elven Kingdoms. So I'd say Armoured Archers should represent that side well enough.

    On top of that, they also use Great Eagles to watch the mountain passes. A Noble on Great Eagle wouldn't be out of place.

    Finally, they are known hunters so for the lore of magic they should use, I recommend Beasts. Light, Life or potentially Dark (some groves are corrupted due to Dark Elves infiltration) should be ok lores of magic. Metal and Fire do not fit a woodland faction.

    So I would say:
    Alastar the White Lion on White Lion Charriot (what else?)
    Noble on Eagle
    Mage (Beasts) on Elven Steed or Ithilmar Charriot

    3 White Lions of Chrace
    1 Pureman Company (white Lions of Chrace RoR)
    2 Rangers (could be removed for 1 additional archer and 1 white Lion unit. But I like their Stalk + anti-infantry focus)
    3 Archers Light Armour

    2 War Lions of Chrace
    1 Rahagra's Pride (War Lions of Chrace)
    3 White Lions Charriots

    2 Great Eagles

    I like 3 Lion packs and 3 Lion chariots so that the chariots charge first and then the Lions munch the unit on the flank or the rear.

    Because I know @GoldfishLord likes to know about this, Alaster special tree buffs White Lions (infantry), White Lions Chariots and War Lions by a significant amount, that is why it's more than half the army here. :smile:

    What would the more learned elven fans think about this?

    The issue here is that - as a white lion - Alastar doesn't represent the kingdom of Chrace. They are the Phoenix King's bodyguard they belong to the phoenix court and are stationed in Lothern. Ultimately those guys are from Chrace but not of it.
    Come on, you are going to do me dirty like this? :s
    Yes, you're right, from Chrace not of Chrace. A White Lion army would remove the archers and eagles, and noble, and replace it by more White Lions infantry and chariots.
    What I proposed is more a Chrace army that can be lead by a Prince with the white lion buffing trait.

    I just like armies with usually a bit more than 3 different units in them, but you've got a point.
    I mean archers, Silver Helms and Spearmen fit almost every High Elf army as those are their regular troops. With the Lions serving Finnubar you could also comfortably add Sea Guard, Eagle Claws and hopefully Sky Cutters should they ever come.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    mulrich said:

    Thank you for these, GoldfishLord.

    I have two questions though:
    1) For Tyrion, do you mean "White Lions of Chrace x4" instead of "War Lions of Chrace x4"? It seems that you do because you put the Puremane Company in there.
    2) Have you thought about including Alastar the White Lion in this? While not a legendary lord, he does start out as immortal and he has unique bonuses for White Lions of Chrace, war lions and lion chariots.

    I fixed my post! Thanks for noticing that typo; I completely missed it. It's nice to see the thread get more traction even so long after it was posted haha. I didn't include Alistair simply because my scope at this point is clearly defined, and the post would get rather bulky if I included the non-legendary but unique lords. HE only have the one, but Tomb Kings and Vampires have a decent number of them.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    MiniaAr said:

    I'll bite.

    So Chrace is mostly a wooden land. So this would mean Rangers are fine (so that your melee units are not just White Lions). Spearmen are also fine but a bit basic.

    They are also known for their Archers. But Sisters of Averlorn, Shadow Warriors and Lothern Sea Guards aren't that indicated because more related to other Elven Kingdoms. So I'd say Armoured Archers should represent that side well enough.

    On top of that, they also use Great Eagles to watch the mountain passes. A Noble on Great Eagle wouldn't be out of place.

    Finally, they are known hunters so for the lore of magic they should use, I recommend Beasts. Light, Life or potentially Dark (some groves are corrupted due to Dark Elves infiltration) should be ok lores of magic. Metal and Fire do not fit a woodland faction.

    So I would say:
    Alastar the White Lion on White Lion Charriot (what else?)
    Noble on Eagle
    Mage (Beasts) on Elven Steed or Ithilmar Charriot

    3 White Lions of Chrace
    1 Pureman Company (white Lions of Chrace RoR)
    2 Rangers (could be removed for 1 additional archer and 1 white Lion unit. But I like their Stalk + anti-infantry focus)
    3 Archers Light Armour

    2 War Lions of Chrace
    1 Rahagra's Pride (War Lions of Chrace)
    3 White Lions Charriots

    2 Great Eagles

    I like 3 Lion packs and 3 Lion chariots so that the chariots charge first and then the Lions munch the unit on the flank or the rear.

    Because I know @GoldfishLord likes to know about this, Alaster special tree buffs White Lions (infantry), White Lions Chariots and War Lions by a significant amount, that is why it's more than half the army here. :smile:

    What would the more learned elven fans think about this?

    Looks great to me! It's totally ok for a unique lord who isn't a faction leader to have a less varied army composition. You responded to the Alistair question before I even saw that someone had commented haha.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    Kelefane said:

    Wait, Hand of the Shadow Crown can be embedded into Alith Anars army now? Or is that a mod?

    I have not actually played as Alith Anar yet, so that was an assumption on my part. The Hand of the Shadow Crown has combat stats and can be used in custom battles, so I thought that it could be embedded into campaign armies. Is this incorrect?
  • mulrichmulrich Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 33

    Kelefane said:

    Wait, Hand of the Shadow Crown can be embedded into Alith Anars army now? Or is that a mod?

    I have not actually played as Alith Anar yet, so that was an assumption on my part. The Hand of the Shadow Crown has combat stats and can be used in custom battles, so I thought that it could be embedded into campaign armies. Is this incorrect?
    It does indeed seem that the Hand of the Shadow Crown is only embeddable in multiplayer. Despite having full voice-over, a custom model and combat stats, he cannot be embedded into an army in the single-player campaign, unless you use a mod.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    mulrich said:

    Kelefane said:

    Wait, Hand of the Shadow Crown can be embedded into Alith Anars army now? Or is that a mod?

    I have not actually played as Alith Anar yet, so that was an assumption on my part. The Hand of the Shadow Crown has combat stats and can be used in custom battles, so I thought that it could be embedded into campaign armies. Is this incorrect?
    It does indeed seem that the Hand of the Shadow Crown is only embeddable in multiplayer. Despite having full voice-over, a custom model and combat stats, he cannot be embedded into an army in the single-player campaign, unless you use a mod.
    Well, I guess that I'll replace him with a Noble in Alith Anar's army, then. That's sad. What a waste!
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    Regarding Alith Anar, I agree that Shadows is the lore that would fit the best but it's difficult to argue against a Light wizard who would benefit a range army the most with overcast Net of Amyntok (and Banishment is a really good spell as well).

    Therefore I suggest a Light wizard with the "Negator" trait giving access to 2 shadow spells: Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma and Enfeebling Foe as a kind of compromise between lore and efficiency.

    Also, instead of 3 Great Eagles, I would recommend a Moon Dragon, as Alith Anar is favoured of the Moon Goddess, and why not a Frostheart Phoenix that would represent the desolation of Nagarythe as a province.
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