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What's the point of charge bonus in cavalry beta?

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  • AimeryanAimeryan Registered Users Posts: 2
    Taken this from Wikipedia:

    Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies,[4] or the charging unit itself breaking up. However, when cavalry charges succeeded, it was usually due to the defending formation breaking up (often in fear) and scattering, to be hunted down by the enemy.[5] While it was not recommended for a cavalry charge to continue against unbroken infantry, charges were still a viable danger to heavy infantry. Parthian lancers were noted to require significantly dense formations of Roman legionaries to stop, and Frankish knights were reported to be even harder to stop, if the writing of Anna Komnene is to be believed. However, only highly trained horses would voluntarily charge dense, unbroken enemy formations directly, and in order to be effective, a strong formation would have to be kept – such strong formations being the result of efficient training. Heavy cavalry lacking even a single part of this combination – composed of high morale, excellent training, quality equipment, individual prowess, and collective discipline of both the warrior and the mount – would suffer in a charge against unbroken heavy infantry, and only the very best heavy cavalrymen (e.g., knights and cataphracts) throughout history would own these in regards to their era and terrain.

    This inspired me to consider perhaps the effectiveness of a charge against a braced unit should in some form also be based on the Leaderships involved? Simple way would be just to consider the Leadership delta in the calculation too, however, I would be interested in something more complex:
    • Would only occur in a contest of a charging unit vs a bracing unit.
    • Both units lose Leadership at a fast rate as the charge occurs (modifiers as seen fit).
    • If the bracing unit breaks then bracing is lost, and of course a broken unit will try to flee as normal.
    • If the charging unit breaks then it flees as normal - probably to rally later.
    • If neither unit breaks, and the charge is not called off, bracing allows for an instant attack by the bracing unit in addition to the other effects of bracing (mass multiplied, etc.).
    • If the charge is called off the Leadership contest is stopped and the units very rapidly regain the lost Leadership.
    The modifiers would include things like charge defence, bonus vs [whatever the charging unit is], vigor, etc. A unit that is exhausted, not got charge defence, not got a bonus, etc., should very easily break (as should anything with low Leadership). The reverse should result in the unit standing firm. If a unit will not break, try another unit. Alternatively, flank and charge the unit when it cannot brace (already engaged, etc.).
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,147
    Aimeryan said:

    Taken this from Wikipedia:

    Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies,[4] or the charging unit itself breaking up. However, when cavalry charges succeeded, it was usually due to the defending formation breaking up (often in fear) and scattering, to be hunted down by the enemy.[5] While it was not recommended for a cavalry charge to continue against unbroken infantry, charges were still a viable danger to heavy infantry. Parthian lancers were noted to require significantly dense formations of Roman legionaries to stop, and Frankish knights were reported to be even harder to stop, if the writing of Anna Komnene is to be believed. However, only highly trained horses would voluntarily charge dense, unbroken enemy formations directly, and in order to be effective, a strong formation would have to be kept – such strong formations being the result of efficient training. Heavy cavalry lacking even a single part of this combination – composed of high morale, excellent training, quality equipment, individual prowess, and collective discipline of both the warrior and the mount – would suffer in a charge against unbroken heavy infantry, and only the very best heavy cavalrymen (e.g., knights and cataphracts) throughout history would own these in regards to their era and terrain.

    This inspired me to consider perhaps the effectiveness of a charge against a braced unit should in some form also be based on the Leaderships involved? Simple way would be just to consider the Leadership delta in the calculation too, however, I would be interested in something more complex:
    • Would only occur in a contest of a charging unit vs a bracing unit.
    • Both units lose Leadership at a fast rate as the charge occurs (modifiers as seen fit).
    • If the bracing unit breaks then bracing is lost, and of course a broken unit will try to flee as normal.
    • If the charging unit breaks then it flees as normal - probably to rally later.
    • If neither unit breaks, and the charge is not called off, bracing allows for an instant attack by the bracing unit in addition to the other effects of bracing (mass multiplied, etc.).
    • If the charge is called off the Leadership contest is stopped and the units very rapidly regain the lost Leadership.
    The modifiers would include things like charge defence, bonus vs [whatever the charging unit is], vigor, etc. A unit that is exhausted, not got charge defence, not got a bonus, etc., should very easily break (as should anything with low Leadership). The reverse should result in the unit standing firm. If a unit will not break, try another unit. Alternatively, flank and charge the unit when it cannot brace (already engaged, etc.).
    hmmm thats an interesting idea, an issue i see is that charging gives a leadership bonus, so it would favour the charging unit most times (this could be changed if bracing gave a leadership bonus)
  • epic_159733426971RLfP0maepic_159733426971RLfP0ma Registered Users Posts: 11
    User_Clue said:



    I'm not sure how useful that would really be. You'd have to know what unit is going to charge that unit ahead of time which isn't always possible. I guess it could maybe frighten units away, but a clever enemy could easily use that to turn a unit out of position and attack it. It seems like it would be pretty easy to abuse.
    Formations can't necessarily turn that fast anyway.

    That's fair, but for the same reason skirmish mode can be forgotten about when micromanaging, so to can bracing. This is all dependent on bracing actually being valuable, which there seems to be indication that it's still not, being able to brace toward an enemy while you're microing another unit out of screen site (again, I'm a noob) can be useful.

    Or hell, you know what formation I really miss? Back in Shogun 2, yari heroes could bunch up into a porcupine formation with the spear square formation. Now that had no flanking problems, but you hoped that the ai didn't bring missile units (yeah, like that would ever happen). You could put the skill on expert charge defenders or something.
  • Captain_OzCaptain_Oz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 78
    What if Bracing gave a 3 second 30% acceleration reduction to enemies to make the braced infantry more sticky, so they get a round of attacks? The 3 second slow would require cavalry to make a full round of attacks before booking it if they want full acceleration (say ~5 second charge). 3 seconds after the last cavalry model to charge a braced unit has finished the acceleration nerf ends. Would be nice if it effected the whole unit just so that the slow is visually transparent.

    I do not see any reason for it to only apply on cavalry vs a specific unit type. Instead, it would be much better if all charging units suffer from acceleration and/or turnspeed reduction during the charge. This could applied at the point of contact and have a duration similar to CB or an arbitary one. That way, it is a fundamental mechanic that makes it harder to disengage all unit types :smile:
    NEDKIL™ for life! :D
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