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Cavalry charging into full HP infantry should be disastrous for the cavalry

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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    So Empire Knights charging into Greatswords should trade evenly? Because that's price parity. Obviously a 1600-point cavalry should and will do more damage to a 450-point infantry unit than it receives.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
  • Spellbound1875Spellbound1875 Registered Users Posts: 1,796

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    So Empire Knights charging into Greatswords should trade evenly? Because that's price parity. Obviously a 1600-point cavalry should and will do more damage to a 450-point infantry unit than it receives.
    On the charge? Yeah they should trade evenly at a minimum (which would still favor the greatswords) since shock cav units are dedicated to charge damage while infantry have sustained combat stats. On the counter charge evenly priced shock cav should win (I'd say trading evenly still makes counter charging too efficient an option, though that's debatable) and then that equation should rapidly reverse if cav remain in sustained combat where the infantries stats and additional entities can come to bear. Units designed around the charge should be better on the charge than units that are not when controlling for cost.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    edited October 2021

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    So Empire Knights charging into Greatswords should trade evenly? Because that's price parity. Obviously a 1600-point cavalry should and will do more damage to a 450-point infantry unit than it receives.
    I dont consider empire knights shock cav, but i dont see why empire knights shouldn't trade even charging into gretswords if they pull out fast, in prolonged fight they should loose however. But there are many other cases that the statment applies to such as blazing suns charging into swordmasters, i definitely think blazing sun should be winning that.

    There are instances where i agreee the cav should loose but the post was very general and overall its why i think was wrong.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,465
    The problem with cavalry not needing to seek rear or flank charges is it basically makes none anti large infantry an inferior option to deal with any threat compared to a more mobile option to deal with said threat.

    In that world what is the purpose of any infantry that is not anti large? Is their only purpose to take out anti large infantry? A unit type whose only niche is to take out different forms of their own unit type sounds all around inferior to cavalry if we get to a game state where cav can run over comparatively costed elite infantry from the front.

    Think about it....even when cavalry is in what people consider bad shape it has a role superior to infantry in attacking archers, fleeing units, rear/flank charging with maneuverability and stopping large units/lords movement.

    Then what would none anti large infantry role be? They are not particularly good against archers, cav, monsters, artillery, etc etc as far as I know. Their only role can't be to kill anti large infantry because I don't think that would be a good balance state.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243

    The problem with cavalry not needing to seek rear or flank charges is it basically makes none anti large infantry an inferior option to deal with any threat compared to a more mobile option to deal with said threat.

    In that world what is the purpose of any infantry that is not anti large? Is their only purpose to take out anti large infantry? A unit type whose only niche is to take out different forms of their own unit type sounds all around inferior to cavalry if we get to a game state where cav can run over comparatively costed elite infantry from the front.

    Think about it....even when cavalry is in what people consider bad shape it has a role superior to infantry in attacking archers, fleeing units, rear/flank charging with maneuverability and stopping large units/lords movement.

    Then what would none anti large infantry role be? They are not particularly good against archers, cav, monsters, artillery, etc etc as far as I know. Their only role can't be to kill anti large infantry because I don't think that would be a good balance state.

    Kill other infantyr, kill cav thats not being controled well, kill missiles, protect postion, there are many roles
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 283
    edited October 2021

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    So Empire Knights charging into Greatswords should trade evenly? Because that's price parity. Obviously a 1600-point cavalry should and will do more damage to a 450-point infantry unit than it receives.
    I dont consider empire knights shock cav, but i dont see why empire knights shouldn't trade even charging into gretswords if they pull out fast, in prolonged fight they should loose however. But there are many other cases that the statment applies to such as blazing suns charging into swordmasters, i definitely think blazing sun should be winning that.

    There are instances where i agreee the cav should loose but the post was very general and overall its why i think was wrong.
    Knights should NOT BE ABLE to pull out fast from melee. That is the whole point, there is no logic or realism behind cycle charging full plate mounted knights.

    Have you ever played a team game? Getting 8 forwards to do the same thing in a rugby game is a massive challenge. Getting 45 knights on top of a horse weighting 800kg+ charge into infantry, then turn around all together, exposing their backs and sides without any ability to defend while SURROUNDED by 60+ remaining men that they have just charged INTO, then somehow all as 1 pushing out in the same direction that they came from is lunatic. Light, fast cav should be able to do hit and run kind of tactics. Heavy shock cav doesn't do hit and run, it does SHOCK and capitalises on the shock until either crushing the opponent or taking heavy casualties.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 283
    edited October 2021
    Seriously people, read about how cataphract formations were actually used. Did they pull out of combat after 20 seconds post charge? F*ck no, they would NOT BREAK FORMATION and keep on fighting and pushing through. Cataphracts would not do hit and run like light cav and neither should 80+ armour knights in wh2.

    Cataphract / heavy knight charge should be a deathblow type of attack, either kill the enemy with a deadly charge or be tied down in hand to hand combat if charging into healthy unit. There should not be an option of getting a charge worthy of a shock cav and then pulling back in seconds, even light cav with no armour would struggle to have that manuvrability in an open field, yet alone INSIDE enemy formations at max armour weight.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,618
    ThisIsREM said:

    Seriously people, read about how cataphract formations were actually used. Did they pull out of combat after 20 seconds post charge? F*ck no, they would NOT BREAK FORMATION and keep on fighting and pushing through. Cataphracts would not do hit and run like light cav and neither should 80+ armour knights in wh2.

    Cataphract / heavy knight charge should be a deathblow type of attack, either kill the enemy with a deadly charge or be tied down in hand to hand combat if charging into healthy unit. There should not be an option of getting a charge worthy of a shock cav and then pulling back in seconds, even light cav with no armour would struggle to have that manuvrability in an open field, yet alone INSIDE enemy formations at max armour weight.

    Cataphracts functioned in a way more similar to melee cavalry than shock cavalry. So, yeah, they did not disengage... but that's exactly the point of the difference between shock and melee cavalry in game.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 283
    edited October 2021
    Pocman said:

    ThisIsREM said:

    Seriously people, read about how cataphract formations were actually used. Did they pull out of combat after 20 seconds post charge? F*ck no, they would NOT BREAK FORMATION and keep on fighting and pushing through. Cataphracts would not do hit and run like light cav and neither should 80+ armour knights in wh2.

    Cataphract / heavy knight charge should be a deathblow type of attack, either kill the enemy with a deadly charge or be tied down in hand to hand combat if charging into healthy unit. There should not be an option of getting a charge worthy of a shock cav and then pulling back in seconds, even light cav with no armour would struggle to have that manuvrability in an open field, yet alone INSIDE enemy formations at max armour weight.

    Cataphracts functioned in a way more similar to melee cavalry than shock cavalry. So, yeah, they did not disengage... but that's exactly the point of the difference between shock and melee cavalry in game.
    Cataphract charge is the definition of shock cavalry.... literally the Cataphract is the godfather of this type of unit: heavy spear cav that deals devastating death blow charge and pushes on to victory using this shock.

    The fact that they stayed in melee is EXACTLY the point. It is common sense, to have devastating charge heavy cav has to be in tight formation. Tight formation of heavy knights CANNOT turn around in seconds, they will get in each others way and it will be chaos, while the enemy infantry is smashing them from behind and sides.

    Instead Cataphracts keep pushing in formation and killing units in their path WHILE BEING SUPPORTED by ranged and melee.

    Once again, Cataphracts or any heavy shock cav in the real word would not charge alone, with no support into the front of enemy infantry and then pull out in less than a minute, it is madness.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,618
    ThisIsREM said:

    Pocman said:

    ThisIsREM said:

    Seriously people, read about how cataphract formations were actually used. Did they pull out of combat after 20 seconds post charge? F*ck no, they would NOT BREAK FORMATION and keep on fighting and pushing through. Cataphracts would not do hit and run like light cav and neither should 80+ armour knights in wh2.

    Cataphract / heavy knight charge should be a deathblow type of attack, either kill the enemy with a deadly charge or be tied down in hand to hand combat if charging into healthy unit. There should not be an option of getting a charge worthy of a shock cav and then pulling back in seconds, even light cav with no armour would struggle to have that manuvrability in an open field, yet alone INSIDE enemy formations at max armour weight.

    Cataphracts functioned in a way more similar to melee cavalry than shock cavalry. So, yeah, they did not disengage... but that's exactly the point of the difference between shock and melee cavalry in game.
    Cataphract charge is the definition of shock cavalry.... literally the Cataphract is the godfather of this type of unit: heavy spear cav that deals devastating death blow charge and pushes on to victory using this shock.

    The fact that they stayed in melee is EXACTLY the point. It is common sense, to have devastating charge heavy cav has to be in tight formation. Tight formation of heavy knights CANNOT turn around in seconds, they will get in each others way and it will be chaos, while the enemy infantry is smashing them from behind and sides.

    Instead Cataphracts keep pushing in formation and killing units in their path WHILE BEING SUPPORTED by ranged and melee.

    Once again, Cataphracts or any heavy shock cav in the real word would not charge alone, with no support into the front of enemy infantry and then pull out in less than a minute, it is madness.
    I guess it depends what historian you talk to, and what cataphracts are you talking about (it's not the same talking about bixantines, sassanid, persian, etc.) but the most popular theory is that cataphracts charged at a canter in a very tight formation and basically pushed. It was not the lance under arm galloping charge of knights.
    In fact, the ones that used spears used them with two hands, and stirrups were not used until very late in the cataphract history.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    ThisIsREM said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    So Empire Knights charging into Greatswords should trade evenly? Because that's price parity. Obviously a 1600-point cavalry should and will do more damage to a 450-point infantry unit than it receives.
    I dont consider empire knights shock cav, but i dont see why empire knights shouldn't trade even charging into gretswords if they pull out fast, in prolonged fight they should loose however. But there are many other cases that the statment applies to such as blazing suns charging into swordmasters, i definitely think blazing sun should be winning that.

    There are instances where i agreee the cav should loose but the post was very general and overall its why i think was wrong.
    Knights should NOT BE ABLE to pull out fast from melee. That is the whole point, there is no logic or realism behind cycle charging full plate mounted knights.

    Have you ever played a team game? Getting 8 forwards to do the same thing in a rugby game is a massive challenge. Getting 45 knights on top of a horse weighting 800kg+ charge into infantry, then turn around all together, exposing their backs and sides without any ability to defend while SURROUNDED by 60+ remaining men that they have just charged INTO, then somehow all as 1 pushing out in the same direction that they came from is lunatic. Light, fast cav should be able to do hit and run kind of tactics. Heavy shock cav doesn't do hit and run, it does SHOCK and capitalises on the shock until either crushing the opponent or taking heavy casualties.
    Yes they should in the game, there is no logic or realism in warhammer as a whole to begin with and it becomes even worse when people try apply logic partly to the argument where it suits them and ignore the rest of their own logic.

    Ok i can agree logically cav should not be able to turn back and pull back fast...on the other hand logically they should be able to trample the infantry infront of it run over and pull thru the back of the unit so infantry should realistically not stop the cav in place, futhermore anything that does not have a pike should get butchered....if we apply logic here...but ofcourse that would not be good for game play, but why argue to apply logic only where it suits the agenda and does not in other places. Heck giants should just walk over infantry and kill anything they step on...
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
    Thats not true, there is micro involved in everything in the game, and the key to winning is nto really better micro but good use a micro is important, good micro simply allows for bigger use of units, you can make an army with lots shock cav and to use it well you will need good micro, that does not mean that the army with lots shock cav is better just gives you more options.

    If micro should not matter at all than all ranged units should be on auto fire?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    ThisIsREM said:

    Seriously people, read about how cataphract formations were actually used. Did they pull out of combat after 20 seconds post charge? F*ck no, they would NOT BREAK FORMATION and keep on fighting and pushing through. Cataphracts would not do hit and run like light cav and neither should 80+ armour knights in wh2.

    Cataphract / heavy knight charge should be a deathblow type of attack, either kill the enemy with a deadly charge or be tied down in hand to hand combat if charging into healthy unit. There should not be an option of getting a charge worthy of a shock cav and then pulling back in seconds, even light cav with no armour would struggle to have that manuvrability in an open field, yet alone INSIDE enemy formations at max armour weight.

    Read how cav worked than and dont apply your logic partly, what you say is correct but it ignores other aspects of how cav worked that if implemented would lead them to be absolutly broken OP in warhammer.

    Instead of pulling back to coutner charge, they would totally pull thru the unit not only that they would knock over all infantry they touch other than pikes (yess not spears or halberd but only pikes) and deal trample dmg.

    Perhaps you're suggestion is to have them do just that? to make infantry unless at protecting other units from cav while cav just rampage thru units like they are chariots? Assuming you actually being fair here and want to apply the full effect how cav worked and not just the one that suits the argumetn?
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
    Thats not true, there is micro involved in everything in the game, and the key to winning is nto really better micro but good use a micro is important, good micro simply allows for bigger use of units, you can make an army with lots shock cav and to use it well you will need good micro, that does not mean that the army with lots shock cav is better just gives you more options.

    If micro should not matter at all than all ranged units should be on auto fire?
    to bad you are factually wrong, you have an army that is just better because you have to cycle charge, your army just wins, there's no counterplay, your cav will just win against melee infantry it costs the same amount of even when taking engagements that are stupid, there is still micro in ranged u its being used effectively, every unit has some micro, the problem is you want to make micro the win condition, not thinking how to heat use there ammo and firing time, not how to position your army, just get the debug camera out to not have to move the camera and cycle charge the frontline while you run the rest of your equal sized army around to run around the formation, where they can't counterplay because your micro more then makes up for stats your army were supposed to lose for improved mobility, you have the speed to not run into there face, so unless the unit is a fraction of the cost, cycle charging shouldn't just invalidate them from the game
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
    Thats not true, there is micro involved in everything in the game, and the key to winning is nto really better micro but good use a micro is important, good micro simply allows for bigger use of units, you can make an army with lots shock cav and to use it well you will need good micro, that does not mean that the army with lots shock cav is better just gives you more options.

    If micro should not matter at all than all ranged units should be on auto fire?
    to bad you are factually wrong, you have an army that is just better because you have to cycle charge, your army just wins, there's no counterplay, your cav will just win against melee infantry it costs the same amount of even when taking engagements that are stupid, there is still micro in ranged u its being used effectively, every unit has some micro, the problem is you want to make micro the win condition, not thinking how to heat use there ammo and firing time, not how to position your army, just get the debug camera out to not have to move the camera and cycle charge the frontline while you run the rest of your equal sized army around to run around the formation, where they can't counterplay because your micro more then makes up for stats your army were supposed to lose for improved mobility, you have the speed to not run into there face, so unless the unit is a fraction of the cost, cycle charging shouldn't just invalidate them from the game
    That's completely wrong, all cav army would typically lose to an all infantry army if its being built and played as well as the all cav army. Even more so vs a mixed army that is supported by like 2 units of mass.

    If you honestly believe cav had no counter in 1.10.2 then you need to improve your understanding of the game.

    If you're referring to sem plus chariot blob before the changes to knockdowns and cohesion (before Dec 2020), then yes, infantry completely lacking any source of mass and ranged ap would lose. Even then, with a critical mass of ranged and either slows or chaff would often win too, the sole exception being missile resist stacked wl chariots with noble chariot and healing. That's unfortunate resist design, but it's not the baseline of how the game was balanced. I have always been in favour of reducing that missile resist first and foremost to balance chariots.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
    Thats not true, there is micro involved in everything in the game, and the key to winning is nto really better micro but good use a micro is important, good micro simply allows for bigger use of units, you can make an army with lots shock cav and to use it well you will need good micro, that does not mean that the army with lots shock cav is better just gives you more options.

    If micro should not matter at all than all ranged units should be on auto fire?
    to bad you are factually wrong, you have an army that is just better because you have to cycle charge, your army just wins, there's no counterplay, your cav will just win against melee infantry it costs the same amount of even when taking engagements that are stupid, there is still micro in ranged u its being used effectively, every unit has some micro, the problem is you want to make micro the win condition, not thinking how to heat use there ammo and firing time, not how to position your army, just get the debug camera out to not have to move the camera and cycle charge the frontline while you run the rest of your equal sized army around to run around the formation, where they can't counterplay because your micro more then makes up for stats your army were supposed to lose for improved mobility, you have the speed to not run into there face, so unless the unit is a fraction of the cost, cycle charging shouldn't just invalidate them from the game
    You're totally wrong...as always but whatever, using a unit for what is designed is nothing to do with me wanting some micro heavy burden to be applied, if you cannot micro a unit that is made around being micro intensive to use than simply do not take it and take other alternative options.

    Also i see nothing wrong with a micro heavy army being very strong if used to the optimal use, non micro heavy ones can be just as strong if well made.

    We can try that theory if u like? We both spend however much same amount of gold i spend it on melee infantry only and you on shock cav only and we can test who wins.

    Doesnt even need to be super micro intensive can do 5000g vs 5000g, if what you say is true the shock cav should win 100% of the time yeah?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243
    edited October 2021
    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
    Thats not true, there is micro involved in everything in the game, and the key to winning is nto really better micro but good use a micro is important, good micro simply allows for bigger use of units, you can make an army with lots shock cav and to use it well you will need good micro, that does not mean that the army with lots shock cav is better just gives you more options.

    If micro should not matter at all than all ranged units should be on auto fire?
    to bad you are factually wrong, you have an army that is just better because you have to cycle charge, your army just wins, there's no counterplay, your cav will just win against melee infantry it costs the same amount of even when taking engagements that are stupid, there is still micro in ranged u its being used effectively, every unit has some micro, the problem is you want to make micro the win condition, not thinking how to heat use there ammo and firing time, not how to position your army, just get the debug camera out to not have to move the camera and cycle charge the frontline while you run the rest of your equal sized army around to run around the formation, where they can't counterplay because your micro more then makes up for stats your army were supposed to lose for improved mobility, you have the speed to not run into there face, so unless the unit is a fraction of the cost, cycle charging shouldn't just invalidate them from the game
    To add even more, what you say simply means shock cav should not existing and have no role and instead all shock cav be remade into melee cav.

    Shock cav is higher micro unit to use with more potential dmg but does worse in prolonged fight
    Melee cav is lower micro intensive with lower potential dmg but does better in prolonged with
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 283

    ThisIsREM said:

    Seriously people, read about how cataphract formations were actually used. Did they pull out of combat after 20 seconds post charge? F*ck no, they would NOT BREAK FORMATION and keep on fighting and pushing through. Cataphracts would not do hit and run like light cav and neither should 80+ armour knights in wh2.

    Cataphract / heavy knight charge should be a deathblow type of attack, either kill the enemy with a deadly charge or be tied down in hand to hand combat if charging into healthy unit. There should not be an option of getting a charge worthy of a shock cav and then pulling back in seconds, even light cav with no armour would struggle to have that manuvrability in an open field, yet alone INSIDE enemy formations at max armour weight.

    Read how cav worked than and dont apply your logic partly, what you say is correct but it ignores other aspects of how cav worked that if implemented would lead them to be absolutly broken OP in warhammer.

    Instead of pulling back to coutner charge, they would totally pull thru the unit not only that they would knock over all infantry they touch other than pikes (yess not spears or halberd but only pikes) and deal trample dmg.

    Perhaps you're suggestion is to have them do just that? to make infantry unless at protecting other units from cav while cav just rampage thru units like they are chariots? Assuming you actually being fair here and want to apply the full effect how cav worked and not just the one that suits the argumetn?
    Yes pulling through in a controlled way would be much better and yes I actually do believe it SHOULD happen.

    110 armour elite knights should be able to push through a 300-600 gold unit relatively easy (albeit much slower than their field movement speed). The downside is that they would be surrounded and alone. Therefore the timing of the charge, the support from other units in this situation and correct decision making is what would make charges effective. It will also allow heavy cav to push through to ranged units like they should but the counter play would be indeed counter charging with your own heavy cav, or focus fire from the ranged units.

    I do believe this is better than the current "who can click faster with 3-4 simultaneous charges that instantly stop, rotate like a yo-yo and retreat, rinse, repeat."
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 12,243

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Ungrim vs Stegadon is best physics.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 809
    edited October 2021
    even in the beta, heavy cavalry already pays a price when pulling out, it is not instantaneous and they take rear hits. And noticeably more so when tired, abd charging tires more than fighting. However I agree that "pulling out penalty" should take a bigger role in the discussion, because that is exactly what allows to find a compromise between charge being OP or useless vs inf. Focusing on the initial trade is not the full picture. But it's just a matter of degree, rather than saying it is currently free of charge to pull out.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.


    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    lol
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
    Thats not true, there is micro involved in everything in the game, and the key to winning is nto really better micro but good use a micro is important, good micro simply allows for bigger use of units, you can make an army with lots shock cav and to use it well you will need good micro, that does not mean that the army with lots shock cav is better just gives you more options.

    If micro should not matter at all than all ranged units should be on auto fire?
    to bad you are factually wrong, you have an army that is just better because you have to cycle charge, your army just wins, there's no counterplay, your cav will just win against melee infantry it costs the same amount of even when taking engagements that are stupid, there is still micro in ranged u its being used effectively, every unit has some micro, the problem is you want to make micro the win condition, not thinking how to heat use there ammo and firing time, not how to position your army, just get the debug camera out to not have to move the camera and cycle charge the frontline while you run the rest of your equal sized army around to run around the formation, where they can't counterplay because your micro more then makes up for stats your army were supposed to lose for improved mobility, you have the speed to not run into there face, so unless the unit is a fraction of the cost, cycle charging shouldn't just invalidate them from the game
    That's completely wrong, all cav army would typically lose to an all infantry army if its being built and played as well as the all cav army. Even more so vs a mixed army that is supported by like 2 units of mass.

    If you honestly believe cav had no counter in 1.10.2 then you need to improve your understanding of the game.

    If you're referring to sem plus chariot blob before the changes to knockdowns and cohesion (before Dec 2020), then yes, infantry completely lacking any source of mass and ranged ap would lose. Even then, with a critical mass of ranged and either slows or chaff would often win too, the sole exception being missile resist stacked wl chariots with noble chariot and healing. That's unfortunate resist design, but it's not the baseline of how the game was balanced. I have always been in favour of reducing that missile resist first and foremost to balance chariots.
    that is true BECAUSE CAV DOESN'T WIN IN FRONTAL CHARGES, if they did, which is why I saying they shouldn't win, then this would happen

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Kebab_man said:

    Frook said:

    It is better stated that heavy cavalry of a price point should not trade evenly but rather with disadvantage and that disadvantage only growing larger the more they stay in combat, if they charge frontally against a similar price point heavy infantry.

    Why? Totally disagree, if you adjust that sentence into Cav charging into braced anti large infantry than 100% agree, but vs any infantry NO...why? Shock cav should come out on top if they get a clean frontal charge front on, if they stay in combat it just depends on unit types engaged in regards to value.

    Va untis with charge defense than yes i agree, vs random infnatry heck no, makes no sense.
    getting a clean charge from the front is not impressive, it's below standard, you have the speed to get into an advantageous position, and you waste it, that would be like if ranged troops were able to not shoot anyone, and run into melee and still trade cost effectively, cav should 100% lose if they fight a unit that costs as much as them from a frontal charge, from a rear charge things are different, and a rear charge while the unit is in melee with melee infantry, should be decimated, however frontal charges on dedicated ranged troops should be just as good as a rear charge on melee infantry, cav needs to work to get its value, otherwise it will just be objectively better then infantry
    Yeah i disagree, in prolnged fight sure i can see it in majority of the cases which already happens.... but in terms of dmg doen on the charge and effectively pulling out than i disagree, i see no reason why blazing sun chargign swordmasters front he front staying in combat for 7s and repeating should not be winning this, they are using their speed and CB the two things they payed for to their advantage, it requires attention fromt he player also, ofcourse there are cases that the same costinfantry should be winning also but the post was made in regards to all same cost cav vs same cost if nantry which i disagree with.
    to bad that cycle charging isn't the apex of strategy, it's literally just micro, this isn't starcraft, the key to winning shouldn't just be better micro then your enemy, while making all melee infantry worthless, yes cav is paying for speed and charge bonus, and it is using them, but it's using them VERY I EFFECTIVELY, ranged troops can fire for the entire game, if they are shooting at a horrible target, at a horrible angle, with dodging they shouldn't be rewarded, it's not about using what you pay for, IT'S USING IT WELL
    Thats not true, there is micro involved in everything in the game, and the key to winning is nto really better micro but good use a micro is important, good micro simply allows for bigger use of units, you can make an army with lots shock cav and to use it well you will need good micro, that does not mean that the army with lots shock cav is better just gives you more options.

    If micro should not matter at all than all ranged units should be on auto fire?
    to bad you are factually wrong, you have an army that is just better because you have to cycle charge, your army just wins, there's no counterplay, your cav will just win against melee infantry it costs the same amount of even when taking engagements that are stupid, there is still micro in ranged u its being used effectively, every unit has some micro, the problem is you want to make micro the win condition, not thinking how to heat use there ammo and firing time, not how to position your army, just get the debug camera out to not have to move the camera and cycle charge the frontline while you run the rest of your equal sized army around to run around the formation, where they can't counterplay because your micro more then makes up for stats your army were supposed to lose for improved mobility, you have the speed to not run into there face, so unless the unit is a fraction of the cost, cycle charging shouldn't just invalidate them from the game
    To add even more, what you say simply means shock cav should not existing and have no role and instead all shock cav be remade into melee cav.

    Shock cav is higher micro unit to use with more potential dmg but does worse in prolonged fight
    Melee cav is lower micro intensive with lower potential dmg but does better in prolonged with
    way to pull **** out of your ass, shock cav is cav that has a role that is more micro intensive, it's not just cav that is more micro intensive to be better, it has matchups where they struggle, and they are normally faster, and less resistant to missile fire, those are very big differences before actually getting to there melee, they preform differently and are used in different places
  • Spellbound1875Spellbound1875 Registered Users Posts: 1,796
    Kebab_man said:



    That's completely wrong, all cav army would typically lose to an all infantry army if its being built and played as well as the all cav army. Even more so vs a mixed army that is supported by like 2 units of mass.

    If you honestly believe cav had no counter in 1.10.2 then you need to improve your understanding of the game.

    If you're referring to sem plus chariot blob before the changes to knockdowns and cohesion (before Dec 2020), then yes, infantry completely lacking any source of mass and ranged ap would lose. Even then, with a critical mass of ranged and either slows or chaff would often win too, the sole exception being missile resist stacked wl chariots with noble chariot and healing. That's unfortunate resist design, but it's not the baseline of how the game was balanced. I have always been in favour of reducing that missile resist first and foremost to balance chariots.

    that is true BECAUSE CAV DOESN'T WIN IN FRONTAL CHARGES, if they did, which is why I saying they shouldn't win, then this would happen
    This is completely inaccurate, something we know because in patch 1.10.2 the charge bug was still in place. Cavalry was winning on value trades from frontal charges, and yet all cav builds were no longer able to abuse infantry while taking no return damage and by price it's much easier to flood the field with enough infantry to tire out and drag down the cav. Mid tier halberds made something of a come back, being able to easily tar pit large targets and trade cost effectively when they tried to pull out. I remember seeing threads where people were debating how to help cavalry and chariots pull out because of how stuck they were getting on infantry and how this was pushing people towards wide infantry builds. These discussions were happening before the bugfix on the Rakarth patch and then it still took months for players to full grasp the implications of that bug fix on infantry performance.

    This idea that until infantry were absolutely slaughtering cavalry on the counter charge they were useless doesn't seem to be supported by the experience players reported, nor the performance of factions and builds at the time. Thanks to the extensive amount of games recorded online you can actually take the time to look at how cav performance changed and confirm this yourself rather than take my word for it.

    I'm really confused as to why this idea keeps coming up. I understand that infantry was in a bad place for a very long time, but that doesn't mean infantry needs to be broken in return.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,473
    Let's all keep the personal remarks out of the conversation folks. Discuss without the occasional verbal grenade being tossed.

    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

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