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What do you think will happen with the Jade Vampires?

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  • MadDoktaMadDokta Registered Users Posts: 456
    Vildvarg said:

    MadDokta said:

    People who suggest one of Cathay’s LLs be a Jade vampire almost annoy me as much as people who suggest Dien Ching or some Tzeentchian cultist be one of Cathay’s LLs. There are two entire vampire factions already, let’s not waste one of Cathay’s limited LL slots on a bloody vampire.

    Why not? Should they all be dragons? It's not as if we have a huge well of characters that we need to fit in first. I think it'd be more interesting to have a variety of themes represented in one race, dragons, monkey king, jade vampires.
    Because there are far more interesting “Cathayan” characters we can have for those limited LL spots rather than a bloody vampire. Monkey King first dlc, the Dragon siblings as flcs, perhaps a human head monk character with a celestial dragon monks (or whatever they’re called now) lord pack, a human general or statesman type character (perhaps as the mortal representative of the Jade Dragon in central Cathay), even potentially an Onyx Crowmen character as the assassin/spy archetype and representing the Moon Empress side of things. Far more interesting and unique archetypes and characters than yet ANOTHER vampire in a game that already has TWO vampire factions.

    I wouldn’t throw a hissy fit over a Jade vampire hero or agent, but I would be annoyed if they take one of the LL spots.
    Djau said:

    MadDokta said:

    People who suggest one of Cathay’s LLs be a Jade vampire almost annoy me as much as people who suggest Dien Ching or some Tzeentchian cultist be one of Cathay’s LLs. There are two entire vampire factions already, let’s not waste one of Cathay’s limited LL slots on a bloody vampire.

    Isn't it the same as Drycha, Arkhan etc?
    It really isn’t. The Wood Elves have always been since their conception a mix of elves and tree spirits, so Drycha fits there even if she is generally antagonistic to the others (there’s nothing wrong with a LL who’s more antagonistic, but we have Monkey King for that). Arkham may be working for Nagash but he’s always been a “Tomb King”, as he is Nehekharan, and he’s always been in their army book.

    We know nothing about the Jade Vampires except that they now actually exist and that they were possibly/probably of Harakhte’s brood.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258
    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,702
    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • MadDoktaMadDokta Registered Users Posts: 456
    Also, we don’t “know” what the monkey warriors are yet. Are they Beastmen with a big “B” and chaos related origins, or are they beastmen with a little “b”, as in half beast, half man? Or are they something else entirely? Right now all we know for sure is they live in the Cathayan south in the Mountains of Heaven, and are the second most populous race in Cathay.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258
    MadDokta said:

    Also, we don’t “know” what the monkey warriors are yet. Are they Beastmen with a big “B” and chaos related origins, or are they beastmen with a little “b”, as in half beast, half man? Or are they something else entirely? Right now all we know for sure is they live in the Cathayan south in the Mountains of Heaven, and are the second most populous race in Cathay.

    They are spirits native to the land of Cathay.

    Point is that they would be considered as BM in the empire and get killed on sight. But Cathay isn’t the Empire… just because Vampires are killed in the Empire, doesn’t mean it’s the same in Cathay.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,821
    Krunch said:

    nexusno9 said:

    I was of the opinion, based on the very limited lore, that the Jade Vampires were not antagonistic towards Cathay but rather a part of it. While some would cause problems/rebellions every now and then, most of them worked within the shadows and while not accepted they were tolerated.

    Could easily see the Jade Vampires being represented by an Agent and maybe elite unit released with a Jade Dragon DLC, likely operating within Cathay society as servants of the Moon Empress. This would play off the harmony aspect of Cathay where the Vampires, certainly no match for the Emperor and Empress, instead make themselves invaluable to the Dragons (in particularly the Moon Empress). A key tenet of Cathay seems to be 'a place for everyone, and everyone in their place', so by serving the Moon Empress as Agents/elite units they've found a niche within Cathay society.

    Making them a separate rebel faction actually feels less interesting than if they were a shadowy group within Cathay society, feared for their vampirism but reluctantly tolerated because of their fealty to the Dragons. It would also explain why the other Vampire bloodlines barely acknowledge them (vampires serving others? such blasphemy!) as well as why the Jade Vampires don't care to change this (the western vampires rise and fall again and again, but we have remained for thousands of years...we have found our place and it suits us just fine).

    Sorry, but no. Tolerance of vampires is evil by default. The vampire is by its very nature evil, an abomination unto the world, a locus of dark and malevolent magics that actively kills the world around it by mere presence. The society that would tolerate the vampire is as evil as the vampire themselves. Cathay is ostensibly supposed to be a good civilization, tolerating vampires would definitely be well... not that.
    So Bretonnia is evil then? You know, the Abhorash fighting side by side with Giles le Breton thing...
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • LunaticprinceLunaticprince Registered Users Posts: 6,566
    My opinion is kinda seperated.

    ONE HAND!

    Undead chinese mythology creatures would be pretty awesome!

    And a order race having a vampire ll would be super epic!

    But other hand yes a vampire ll for cathay.

    I think the theme in cathay is not the super magical aspect of their faction.

    Would i complain? No but can i imagine better option?
    Yes.


  • MadDoktaMadDokta Registered Users Posts: 456
    ArneSo said:

    MadDokta said:

    Also, we don’t “know” what the monkey warriors are yet. Are they Beastmen with a big “B” and chaos related origins, or are they beastmen with a little “b”, as in half beast, half man? Or are they something else entirely? Right now all we know for sure is they live in the Cathayan south in the Mountains of Heaven, and are the second most populous race in Cathay.

    They are spirits native to the land of Cathay.

    Point is that they would be considered as BM in the empire and get killed on sight. But Cathay isn’t the Empire… just because Vampires are killed in the Empire, doesn’t mean it’s the same in Cathay.
    I don’t recall Andy ever using the word “spirits”, only that they were the second most populous in Cathay, behind humans.
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2021
    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    Beastmen are chaos corrupted. How do you know if monkey king/warriors is the same? In fact all the indications suggest otherwise.
    Monkey King is also known to have ruled Cathay at some point. What did jade vampires do in lore again?

    To compare monkey king and his warriors to jade vampires is ridiculous.

    Not to mention monkey king is based on the most popular Chinese mythical character and is known to help human monk in his pilgrim while Chinese vampires are just small antagonists in the myth
  • T_MACCABBEET_MACCABBEE Registered Users Posts: 700
    And people scoffed at me suggesting the idea about cathayan supernatural units when the lore of yin is already about summoning the spirits of the dead akin to shang dynasty shamanism.

    That said, I still doubt we'll see jade vampires in the cathay roster. Although the infamous jiangshi zombies MIGHT make an appearance.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258
    MadDokta said:

    ArneSo said:

    MadDokta said:

    Also, we don’t “know” what the monkey warriors are yet. Are they Beastmen with a big “B” and chaos related origins, or are they beastmen with a little “b”, as in half beast, half man? Or are they something else entirely? Right now all we know for sure is they live in the Cathayan south in the Mountains of Heaven, and are the second most populous race in Cathay.

    They are spirits native to the land of Cathay.

    Point is that they would be considered as BM in the empire and get killed on sight. But Cathay isn’t the Empire… just because Vampires are killed in the Empire, doesn’t mean it’s the same in Cathay.
    I don’t recall Andy ever using the word “spirits”, only that they were the second most populous in Cathay, behind humans.
    I never mentioned Andy, did I?
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • DeckardusDeckardus Registered Users Posts: 2,230
    I can imagine jade Vampires will be just standard Vampire Count faction in Cathay. After all, we need one or more Vampire Count factions on Warhammer 3 campaign map. It make sense to have own version of Sylvania for Cathay.

    I really doubt vampires will be part of Cathay unit roster.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258
    Labria said:

    I can imagine jade Vampires will be just standard Vampire Count faction in Cathay. After all, we need one or more Vampire Count factions on Warhammer 3 campaign map. It make sense to have own version of Sylvania for Cathay.

    I really doubt vampires will be part of Cathay unit roster.

    So western styled skeletons, Gothic Vampires and Transylvanian Monsters in Cathay? That really doesn’t fit.

    VC already have enough missing LLs with all the Bloodlines. Jade Blooded should and most likely will be a Cathay thing.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 2,713
    edited October 2021
    ArneSo said:

    Labria said:

    I can imagine jade Vampires will be just standard Vampire Count faction in Cathay. After all, we need one or more Vampire Count factions on Warhammer 3 campaign map. It make sense to have own version of Sylvania for Cathay.

    I really doubt vampires will be part of Cathay unit roster.

    So western styled skeletons, Gothic Vampires and Transylvanian Monsters in Cathay? That really doesn’t fit.

    VC already have enough missing LLs with all the Bloodlines. Jade Blooded should and most likely will be a Cathay thing.
    I have to agree. A jade vampire in VC would just completely miss the aesthetic. I think it'd be a good fit for a LP to give it a few eastern undead units.

    The jade line is all but lost as far as the VC seem to be concerned.
  • DeckardusDeckardus Registered Users Posts: 2,230
    ArneSo said:

    Labria said:

    I can imagine jade Vampires will be just standard Vampire Count faction in Cathay. After all, we need one or more Vampire Count factions on Warhammer 3 campaign map. It make sense to have own version of Sylvania for Cathay.

    I really doubt vampires will be part of Cathay unit roster.

    So western styled skeletons, Gothic Vampires and Transylvanian Monsters in Cathay? That really doesn’t fit.

    VC already have enough missing LLs with all the Bloodlines. Jade Blooded should and most likely will be a Cathay thing.
    I saw western styled skeletons, Gothic Vampires and Transylvanian Monsters in Lustria at launch of Warhammer 2. :D
    I really doubt that Jade Vampires will be something more than just minor Vampire Count faction in Cathay in Warhammer 3.

    Well, if GW really want they can make unique Jade Vampires race in next 20 years. I really doubt it make any sense to make vampires as part of Cathay unit roster. This is really same like add Vampire Coast units for Lizardmen.

    Why we even need own unique legendary lord for Jade Vampires in Warhammer 3? If CA really want they can make Neferata's expedition to Cathay or something like this. B)
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258
    Labria said:

    ArneSo said:

    Labria said:

    I can imagine jade Vampires will be just standard Vampire Count faction in Cathay. After all, we need one or more Vampire Count factions on Warhammer 3 campaign map. It make sense to have own version of Sylvania for Cathay.

    I really doubt vampires will be part of Cathay unit roster.

    So western styled skeletons, Gothic Vampires and Transylvanian Monsters in Cathay? That really doesn’t fit.

    VC already have enough missing LLs with all the Bloodlines. Jade Blooded should and most likely will be a Cathay thing.
    I saw western styled skeletons, Gothic Vampires and Transylvanian Monsters in Lustria at launch of Warhammer 2. :D
    I really doubt that Jade Vampires will be something more than just minor Vampire Count faction in Cathay in Warhammer 3.

    Well, if GW really want they can make unique Jade Vampires race in next 20 years. I really doubt it make any sense to make vampires as part of Cathay unit roster. This is really same like add Vampire Coast units for Lizardmen.

    Why we even need own unique legendary lord for Jade Vampires in Warhammer 3? If CA really want they can make Neferata's expedition to Cathay or something like this. B)
    Yeah at launch. They were replaced by the Vampire Coast in the end.

    I do expect some generic AI VC factions sprinkled over the map. Thats what CA always does. It’s fine.

    But Jade Blooded should be part of Cathay. They are their own unique thing.

    Neferata is a Lahmian Vampire and she will start in the Silver Pinnacle next to Kislev. Harakhte on the other hand moved to Cathay. Having him as some sort of Eunuch type of Support LL leading a secret Cult would be pretty cool and fit perfectly with Cathays new identity.

    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 7,073
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    It is LITRALLY impossible for Beastmen to not follow the Gods of Chaos. It is simply literally their nature to follow Chaos... So Monkey Men, and by extension the Monkey King, is something entirely different and unique.. I like the fact that you try and pin the Empire as being prejudiced racist, while at the same time being the racist by labelling Monkey Men as Beastmen simply because of similar superficial characteristics...

    Also, Vampires have an unnatural hunger for blood. It does not matter if they are noble of heart or not. The most noble of all Vampires Abohorash succumbed to his bloodthirst, despite his best efforts. So there is simply no way in hell that the Eastern Vampires have all achieved "zen" and beaten what all other Vampires couldn't...

    Also of note, all Dragons that have had their blood drank by a Vampire has died in the process. 100% of them. So no... The Vampires colloquially known as Jade Vampires, have most certainly NOT drank the blood of one fo the Cathayan Dragons..
  • LoreguyLoreguy Registered Users Posts: 1,622
    Vildvarg said:

    ArneSo said:

    Labria said:

    I can imagine jade Vampires will be just standard Vampire Count faction in Cathay. After all, we need one or more Vampire Count factions on Warhammer 3 campaign map. It make sense to have own version of Sylvania for Cathay.

    I really doubt vampires will be part of Cathay unit roster.

    So western styled skeletons, Gothic Vampires and Transylvanian Monsters in Cathay? That really doesn’t fit.

    VC already have enough missing LLs with all the Bloodlines. Jade Blooded should and most likely will be a Cathay thing.
    I have to agree. A jade vampire in VC would just completely miss the aesthetic. I think it'd be a good fit for a LP to give it a few eastern undead units.

    The jade line is all but lost as far as the VC seem to be concerned.
    Luthor Harkon could raise dead Skaven/Lizards as human undead.

    Noctilus turning dead elves to zombie handgunners.

    Carsteins have regular size skellies from Dawi holds.

    Few eastern units could work (Cylostra have Undead Bret knights) but I except them to be regular VC faction.
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 2,713

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    It is LITRALLY impossible for Beastmen to not follow the Gods of Chaos. It is simply literally their nature to follow Chaos... So Monkey Men, and by extension the Monkey King, is something entirely different and unique.. I like the fact that you try and pin the Empire as being prejudiced racist, while at the same time being the racist by labelling Monkey Men as Beastmen simply because of similar superficial characteristics...

    Also, Vampires have an unnatural hunger for blood. It does not matter if they are noble of heart or not. The most noble of all Vampires Abohorash succumbed to his bloodthirst, despite his best efforts. So there is simply no way in hell that the Eastern Vampires have all achieved "zen" and beaten what all other Vampires couldn't...

    Also of note, all Dragons that have had their blood drank by a Vampire has died in the process. 100% of them. So no... The Vampires colloquially known as Jade Vampires, have most certainly NOT drank the blood of one fo the Cathayan Dragons..
    I completely agree with your first paragraph.

    But we know nothing about the rest of the jade line. For all we know they could go with this chi thing and make them closer to something like the kueijin from VTM where they found a way to feed off of chi rather than just directly blood.

    The fact of the matter is we know nothing about what the jade line is.

    The only defining trait we really know about them is that they're Cathayan vampires. Cathay is the only defining thing we know about them so why wouldn't they be in Cathay? As a rebel faction or somehow Integrated into their already mismatched society ruled by dragons.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    It is LITRALLY impossible for Beastmen to not follow the Gods of Chaos. It is simply literally their nature to follow Chaos... So Monkey Men, and by extension the Monkey King, is something entirely different and unique.. I like the fact that you try and pin the Empire as being prejudiced racist, while at the same time being the racist by labelling Monkey Men as Beastmen simply because of similar superficial characteristics...

    Also, Vampires have an unnatural hunger for blood. It does not matter if they are noble of heart or not. The most noble of all Vampires Abohorash succumbed to his bloodthirst, despite his best efforts. So there is simply no way in hell that the Eastern Vampires have all achieved "zen" and beaten what all other Vampires couldn't...

    Also of note, all Dragons that have had their blood drank by a Vampire has died in the process. 100% of them. So no... The Vampires colloquially known as Jade Vampires, have most certainly NOT drank the blood of one fo the Cathayan Dragons..
    Tigermen are technical BM and yet they aren’t chaotic. They are touched by Chaos similar to White Lions, Demigryphs or Unicorns.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • ERICdbsERICdbs CataloniaRegistered Users Posts: 638
    To me it makes a lot of sense to have Jade Vampires in a limited form as part of Cathay, maybe as regular Lords or Heroes. This accomplishes various things:

    1. It doesn't cannibalise LL slots from other vampire factions.
    2. It doesn't spend LL slots from Cathay.
    3. It can flesh out the lore of Cathay perfectly fine, following the imperial "eunuch" theme and creating yet another distinction between east and west treatment to non-humans.
    4. It gives a potential Jade Dragon DLC something interesting aside from the theme of "good administration and paperwork".

    All the other options fail short compared to this one. Not only that, but you must understand that Eastern Dragons are revered (and probably feared) in Cathay, so if they decide to have Vampire administrators in the empire, no one would dare to show discontent. We also know that Undead are good counters to Chaos and their influences, so for the Jade and Emperor Dragons it makes sense to have high ranking bureaucrats that aren't likely to fall to corruption. And it's rather easy to ensure the loyalty of such individuals, as there's plenty of peasants that would "gladly" sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Remember, Dragons are entitled "to demand sacrifice". It's a rather mutualistic relation, tbh.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 7,073
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    It is LITRALLY impossible for Beastmen to not follow the Gods of Chaos. It is simply literally their nature to follow Chaos... So Monkey Men, and by extension the Monkey King, is something entirely different and unique.. I like the fact that you try and pin the Empire as being prejudiced racist, while at the same time being the racist by labelling Monkey Men as Beastmen simply because of similar superficial characteristics...

    Also, Vampires have an unnatural hunger for blood. It does not matter if they are noble of heart or not. The most noble of all Vampires Abohorash succumbed to his bloodthirst, despite his best efforts. So there is simply no way in hell that the Eastern Vampires have all achieved "zen" and beaten what all other Vampires couldn't...

    Also of note, all Dragons that have had their blood drank by a Vampire has died in the process. 100% of them. So no... The Vampires colloquially known as Jade Vampires, have most certainly NOT drank the blood of one fo the Cathayan Dragons..
    Tigermen are technical BM and yet they aren’t chaotic. They are touched by Chaos similar to White Lions, Demigryphs or Unicorns.
    Then they aren't Beastmen... Look it is extremely simple: Beastmen are the firstborn of Chaos and are instinctually followers of Chaos. It is literally their nature. If any other anthropomorphic man-animal exist and it isn't a follower of Chaos, then that creature quite simply isn't a Beastman.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 7,073
    Vildvarg said:



    But we know nothing about the rest of the jade line. For all we know they could go with this chi thing and make them closer to something like the kueijin from VTM where they found a way to feed off of chi rather than just directly blood.

    The fact of the matter is we know nothing about what the jade line is.

    The only defining trait we really know about them is that they're Cathayan vampires. Cathay is the only defining thing we know about them so why wouldn't they be in Cathay? As a rebel faction or somehow Integrated into their already mismatched society ruled by dragons.

    If there is ANY other solution to the Red Thrist and The Hunger than the consumption of the lifeforce of a Dragon, then you have effectually trivialised the existence of the other Vampries, and made literal fools of them, since they could have just done the other thing. it would be a literary and narrative failure to make such an alternative, since it would destroy so much established lore, character and motivation.

    Of course, GW can if they wish do so, and I wouldn't put it past them. It would just be an extremely bad move.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    It is LITRALLY impossible for Beastmen to not follow the Gods of Chaos. It is simply literally their nature to follow Chaos... So Monkey Men, and by extension the Monkey King, is something entirely different and unique.. I like the fact that you try and pin the Empire as being prejudiced racist, while at the same time being the racist by labelling Monkey Men as Beastmen simply because of similar superficial characteristics...

    Also, Vampires have an unnatural hunger for blood. It does not matter if they are noble of heart or not. The most noble of all Vampires Abohorash succumbed to his bloodthirst, despite his best efforts. So there is simply no way in hell that the Eastern Vampires have all achieved "zen" and beaten what all other Vampires couldn't...

    Also of note, all Dragons that have had their blood drank by a Vampire has died in the process. 100% of them. So no... The Vampires colloquially known as Jade Vampires, have most certainly NOT drank the blood of one fo the Cathayan Dragons..
    Tigermen are technical BM and yet they aren’t chaotic. They are touched by Chaos similar to White Lions, Demigryphs or Unicorns.
    Then they aren't Beastmen... Look it is extremely simple: Beastmen are the firstborn of Chaos and are instinctually followers of Chaos. It is literally their nature. If any other anthropomorphic man-animal exist and it isn't a follower of Chaos, then that creature quite simply isn't a Beastman.
    And they would still get killed in the empire because for them everything is a BM that is Part Human Part Animal.

    They even think Skaven are just BM…
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258

    Vildvarg said:



    But we know nothing about the rest of the jade line. For all we know they could go with this chi thing and make them closer to something like the kueijin from VTM where they found a way to feed off of chi rather than just directly blood.

    The fact of the matter is we know nothing about what the jade line is.

    The only defining trait we really know about them is that they're Cathayan vampires. Cathay is the only defining thing we know about them so why wouldn't they be in Cathay? As a rebel faction or somehow Integrated into their already mismatched society ruled by dragons.

    If there is ANY other solution to the Red Thrist and The Hunger than the consumption of the lifeforce of a Dragon, then you have effectually trivialised the existence of the other Vampries, and made literal fools of them, since they could have just done the other thing. it would be a literary and narrative failure to make such an alternative, since it would destroy so much established lore, character and motivation.

    Of course, GW can if they wish do so, and I wouldn't put it past them. It would just be an extremely bad move.
    Only your opinion dude. For me Jade Blooded would fit perfect for Cathay.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 7,073
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    It is LITRALLY impossible for Beastmen to not follow the Gods of Chaos. It is simply literally their nature to follow Chaos... So Monkey Men, and by extension the Monkey King, is something entirely different and unique.. I like the fact that you try and pin the Empire as being prejudiced racist, while at the same time being the racist by labelling Monkey Men as Beastmen simply because of similar superficial characteristics...

    Also, Vampires have an unnatural hunger for blood. It does not matter if they are noble of heart or not. The most noble of all Vampires Abohorash succumbed to his bloodthirst, despite his best efforts. So there is simply no way in hell that the Eastern Vampires have all achieved "zen" and beaten what all other Vampires couldn't...

    Also of note, all Dragons that have had their blood drank by a Vampire has died in the process. 100% of them. So no... The Vampires colloquially known as Jade Vampires, have most certainly NOT drank the blood of one fo the Cathayan Dragons..
    Tigermen are technical BM and yet they aren’t chaotic. They are touched by Chaos similar to White Lions, Demigryphs or Unicorns.
    Then they aren't Beastmen... Look it is extremely simple: Beastmen are the firstborn of Chaos and are instinctually followers of Chaos. It is literally their nature. If any other anthropomorphic man-animal exist and it isn't a follower of Chaos, then that creature quite simply isn't a Beastman.
    And they would still get killed in the empire because for them everything is a BM that is Part Human Part Animal.

    They even think Skaven are just BM…
    Tigermen are also extremely dangerous creatures and it would make sense to get rid of them..... You would also kill a normal tiger if it was prowling around your village.... Don't try to paint Cathay as some sort of virtuous morally superior nation.... They are using the Monkey Men as meat shields in their armies.. They are, just like the humans, tools in the eyes of the Dragons.. Whether or not the terminology used by the Empire is technically correct, they ARE correct in the threat that each of these creatures pose. Also, considering that Beastmen can have the features of literally any animal, be that a Goat, Monkey, Tiger or Fly, then they can be forgiven for jumping to a similar conclusion that YOU yourself just made..

    also, it is worth noting that the only pieces of lore we have, that is more than superficial, about Tigermen is from RPG soruces, which are decidedly second-rate cannon and of questionable validity. Otherwise Tigermen are mentioned once in the 6th edition beastmen Armybook.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 7,073
    ArneSo said:

    Vildvarg said:



    But we know nothing about the rest of the jade line. For all we know they could go with this chi thing and make them closer to something like the kueijin from VTM where they found a way to feed off of chi rather than just directly blood.

    The fact of the matter is we know nothing about what the jade line is.

    The only defining trait we really know about them is that they're Cathayan vampires. Cathay is the only defining thing we know about them so why wouldn't they be in Cathay? As a rebel faction or somehow Integrated into their already mismatched society ruled by dragons.

    If there is ANY other solution to the Red Thrist and The Hunger than the consumption of the lifeforce of a Dragon, then you have effectually trivialised the existence of the other Vampries, and made literal fools of them, since they could have just done the other thing. it would be a literary and narrative failure to make such an alternative, since it would destroy so much established lore, character and motivation.

    Of course, GW can if they wish do so, and I wouldn't put it past them. It would just be an extremely bad move.
    Only your opinion dude. For me Jade Blooded would fit perfect for Cathay.
    I didn't say that they wouldn't fit... I said that they can't have cured their Thrist and Hunger..
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258

    ArneSo said:

    Vildvarg said:



    But we know nothing about the rest of the jade line. For all we know they could go with this chi thing and make them closer to something like the kueijin from VTM where they found a way to feed off of chi rather than just directly blood.

    The fact of the matter is we know nothing about what the jade line is.

    The only defining trait we really know about them is that they're Cathayan vampires. Cathay is the only defining thing we know about them so why wouldn't they be in Cathay? As a rebel faction or somehow Integrated into their already mismatched society ruled by dragons.

    If there is ANY other solution to the Red Thrist and The Hunger than the consumption of the lifeforce of a Dragon, then you have effectually trivialised the existence of the other Vampries, and made literal fools of them, since they could have just done the other thing. it would be a literary and narrative failure to make such an alternative, since it would destroy so much established lore, character and motivation.

    Of course, GW can if they wish do so, and I wouldn't put it past them. It would just be an extremely bad move.
    Only your opinion dude. For me Jade Blooded would fit perfect for Cathay.
    I didn't say that they wouldn't fit... I said that they can't have cured their Thrist and Hunger..
    Luckily Cathay has enough supplies for… blood. It’s not like individuals matter in Cathay, all part of the Harmony you know?

    And here we have it, a perfectly grimdark Cathay.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 35,258

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    talonn said:

    Why would human and dragons serve or fight side by side with vampires? Are they not concerned that they will be turn into one of the undeads?

    Vampires belong to undead factions, not human factions

    Not to mention the backlash from Chinese market if this happens

    Why wouldn’t they? Cathay already works together with Beastmen. Cathayan Vampires don’t have to be as evil as their Western counterparts. I expect them to be something similar to the Chinese Eunuchs.
    It's pretty disingenuous to equate Khazrak to the Monkey King as if they're analogous.
    I never did that. Point is that we shouldn’t look at Cathay from a western (imperial) viewpoint.

    The empire didn’t use magic for centuries. Cathay did.

    The empire kills every weird magical creature that isn’t human or a dwarf. Cathay tolerated them and lives together with them in harmony. Cathay even uses them as auxiliaries.

    The Empire is ruled by humans, Cathay is ruled by literal Dragons.

    The Empire was influenced by Elves and Dwarfs and to some extent also the Old Ones. Cathay wasn’t.

    We really should stop looking at Cathay and argue as an Empire man.

    Yes Vampires are killed on sight in the Empire just like any sort of animalistic humanoid creature. That’s doesn’t mean the same thing applies for Cathay.

    People argued that humans shouldn’t use so much magic because of the Empire and yet here we are with Cathay being magically on par with LM and the HE.

    So Vampires working together with the cathayan Dragons to achieve a greater good is not that far fetched. It actually fits the whole harmony thing.
    It is LITRALLY impossible for Beastmen to not follow the Gods of Chaos. It is simply literally their nature to follow Chaos... So Monkey Men, and by extension the Monkey King, is something entirely different and unique.. I like the fact that you try and pin the Empire as being prejudiced racist, while at the same time being the racist by labelling Monkey Men as Beastmen simply because of similar superficial characteristics...

    Also, Vampires have an unnatural hunger for blood. It does not matter if they are noble of heart or not. The most noble of all Vampires Abohorash succumbed to his bloodthirst, despite his best efforts. So there is simply no way in hell that the Eastern Vampires have all achieved "zen" and beaten what all other Vampires couldn't...

    Also of note, all Dragons that have had their blood drank by a Vampire has died in the process. 100% of them. So no... The Vampires colloquially known as Jade Vampires, have most certainly NOT drank the blood of one fo the Cathayan Dragons..
    Tigermen are technical BM and yet they aren’t chaotic. They are touched by Chaos similar to White Lions, Demigryphs or Unicorns.
    Then they aren't Beastmen... Look it is extremely simple: Beastmen are the firstborn of Chaos and are instinctually followers of Chaos. It is literally their nature. If any other anthropomorphic man-animal exist and it isn't a follower of Chaos, then that creature quite simply isn't a Beastman.
    And they would still get killed in the empire because for them everything is a BM that is Part Human Part Animal.

    They even think Skaven are just BM…
    Tigermen are also extremely dangerous creatures and it would make sense to get rid of them..... You would also kill a normal tiger if it was prowling around your village.... Don't try to paint Cathay as some sort of virtuous morally superior nation.... They are using the Monkey Men as meat shields in their armies.. They are, just like the humans, tools in the eyes of the Dragons.. Whether or not the terminology used by the Empire is technically correct, they ARE correct in the threat that each of these creatures pose. Also, considering that Beastmen can have the features of literally any animal, be that a Goat, Monkey, Tiger or Fly, then they can be forgiven for jumping to a similar conclusion that YOU yourself just made..

    also, it is worth noting that the only pieces of lore we have, that is more than superficial, about Tigermen is from RPG soruces, which are decidedly second-rate cannon and of questionable validity. Otherwise Tigermen are mentioned once in the 6th edition beastmen Armybook.
    Monkey Warriors would also get insta killed in the empire and yet they fight together with Humans in Cathay.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
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