Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

The Moon Empress is suspicious (THEORY)

RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,048
Alright fellas, put on your tin foil hats. I think quite a few of us raised an eyebrow when we first heard that the Moon Empress was using many-eyed crowmen to hunt down Tzeentch cultists within Cathay, so I started theorizing as a joke that she might be Tzeentch-aligned somehow. That being said, the more I learned (and granted, it wasn't a lot) the more it felt like there's some odd coincidences that, if not intentional, must have at least left someone involved with the lore scratching their head.



Do I think this is the case? Not yet, there's certainly some reaching involved if you take them individually, but I do think that it's curious how we know so little lore about her at the moment yet everything fits like a glove with the possibility that she might have some form of connection with Tzeentch. Even if it's done on purpose, it wouldn't be the first time a connection between Tzeentch and some other element is posed as a question but remains vague enough to potentially mean nothing. What do you think?
«1

Comments

  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 1,266
    RamsesIII said:

    Alright fellas, put on your tin foil hats. I think quite a few of us raised an eyebrow when we first heard that the Moon Empress was using many-eyed crowmen to hunt down Tzeentch cultists within Cathay, so I started theorizing as a joke that she might be Tzeentch-aligned somehow. That being said, the more I learned (and granted, it wasn't a lot) the more it felt like there's some odd coincidences that, if not intentional, must have at least left someone involved with the lore scratching their head.



    Do I think this is the case? Not yet, there's certainly some reaching involved if you take them individually, but I do think that it's curious how we know so little lore about her at the moment yet everything fits like a glove with the possibility that she might have some form of connection with Tzeentch. Even if it's done on purpose, it wouldn't be the first time a connection between Tzeentch and some other element is posed as a question but remains vague enough to potentially mean nothing. What do you think?

    And Tzeentch is the creator of chaos dragons.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,251
    I mean Morai-hag is the elven goddess of fate amd death and associated with ravens IIRC.
    Morrs is also the god of death, ravens and prophetic dreams plus the name-giver of the chaos moon.

    Still neither are aspects of tzeentch. Different gods may use similar motives.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,573
    Probably intentional but I doubt the Moon Empress is a Tzeentch pawn- more likely those motifs were adopted to confuse Cultists, most of whom probably have little idea which power they are trying to negotiate with at first. It is fairly common for groups that oppose each other for lengthy periods of time to borrow some emblems from their enemies, first as trophies, then as warning, and finally as whatever theme the motif represents is something both sides can agree is representative even while use it to oppose each other.
    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 604
    I like it!

    She could also be in control, more or less successfully channeling tzeentchs power. In game, a Cathy faction with access to some of their mechanics and maybe even units (demons/not mortals)

    I think your way is more likely, just saying it could be an interesting take and fit those points. A functional society successfully tapping into a gods power, before the ruinous fall. Though of course it’s all corruption in the end and long game tzeentch would successfully corrupt
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 604
    It’s no coincidence that she and zhao Ming are always mentioned as apart, the odd dragon out.

    There’s definitely something going on there. It might not be this, but it does feel like a good fit

  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 5,678
    Andy mentioned the dragons being 'good' and uncorrupted.

    So, no. It also makes no sense whatsoever; They're one of THE defenders against Chaos.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,896
    JungleElf said:

    Andy mentioned the dragons being 'good' and uncorrupted.

    So, no. It also makes no sense whatsoever; They're one of THE defenders against Chaos.

    This. The Moon Empress is responsible for sending out agents to root out the corruption of Tzeentch in Cathay. She isn’t going to be one of his.
    ò_ó
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 5,183
    sykall said:

    I mean Morai-hag is the elven goddess of fate amd death and associated with ravens IIRC.
    Morrs is also the god of death, ravens and prophetic dreams plus the name-giver of the chaos moon.

    Still neither are aspects of tzeentch. Different gods may use similar motives.

    Yeah, I think it's kind of like Khaine and Khorne, or Atharti and Slaanesh. Mortal gods tends to share aspects and visuals with Chaos Gods, probably because Chaos deeply warped the entire world cultures
  • Domokun84Domokun84 Registered Users Posts: 206
    First off, kudos on the awesome presentation.

    If I didn't believe before, I do now. There's definately something under the surface. Is she a double double agent? Unwitting pawn of Tzeentches just as planned shenanigans?

    It would be amazing to find out at the end of the Cathay campaign that she was subverting all of Cathays efforts unwittingly then has to make the ultimate sacrifice to correct her mistakes and prevent the end times.
  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,048
    edited October 17
    Warlocke said:

    JungleElf said:

    Andy mentioned the dragons being 'good' and uncorrupted.

    So, no. It also makes no sense whatsoever; They're one of THE defenders against Chaos.

    This. The Moon Empress is responsible for sending out agents to root out the corruption of Tzeentch in Cathay. She isn’t going to be one of his.
    I mean, I see both you and JungleElf's points, but pulling the strings of the one who is supposed to be rooting out your cults would be extremely Tzeentch-like.

    Plus, Andy made a general statement that doesn't need to apply to the Moon Empress specifically. Nothing is entirely free of risk, even the slann (whom I'd consider far more worthy of the title "THE defenders against chaos") use palanquins to avoid touching the chaos corrupted soil and dare not ask Oxyotl about what he saw in the Realm of Chaos for that reason.
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 3,250
    Except Dragons are not Gods, unless "she" has managed to fool her husband of many Millienias.

    And there's two moons, Tzeentch, if any, would be more associated withe the Warpstone/Chaos Moon morrslieb.

    There's the natural moon Mannslieb, also known to the Lizardmen and the Silvered One.

    Why a Dragon would be connected to the any moon is also a bit of a puzzle. Can these dragons fly through space?
    If so, maybe the Celestial couple disappearing was them flying off to find a new backup planet. Something GW might be laying in to introduce Dragon people into AoS later.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 604
    edited October 17
    Warlocke said:

    JungleElf said:

    Andy mentioned the dragons being 'good' and uncorrupted.

    So, no. It also makes no sense whatsoever; They're one of THE defenders against Chaos.

    This. The Moon Empress is responsible for sending out agents to root out the corruption of Tzeentch in Cathay. She isn’t going to be one of his.
    In stories and history, it is very common that those tasked with policing corruption are the first corrupted. In fact it feels like, in stories about corruption, more often than not it is the case

    Don’t forget, this kind of corruption is the whole mo of demons. And really this game is mainly themed around demons, Cathay are just a supporting character.

  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,048
    sykall said:

    I mean Morai-hag is the elven goddess of fate amd death and associated with ravens IIRC.
    Morrs is also the god of death, ravens and prophetic dreams plus the name-giver of the chaos moon.

    Still neither are aspects of tzeentch. Different gods may use similar motives.

    Yeah that's a fair point, I don't think shared themes alone are enough to say there's a connection. Though I think the same question has been posed in the past for some of those gods, even though it's been confirmed they're not the same? I don't remember if they ever played around with the "what if Khaine is Khorne" idea in Fantasy or if that was only 40k stuff, even though we know regardless that they're separate entities.
  • 55JoNNo55JoNNo Registered Users Posts: 2,235
    There is also the counterpart to the Dragon Emperor on the Wu-Xing compass art... It's a bird



    Bohemond for game 3 please!

  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 8,059
    That's some next level Alex Jones **** right there lol


    GuO STOMP!
    Nurgle Is Love
    Nurgle Is Life
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 31,067
    I respect the effort.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, Greater Demon of the Ogre Kingdoms, Teller of Truths, Enemy of Lies, Emperor of a lost Empire

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,186
    JungleElf said:

    Andy mentioned the dragons being 'good' and uncorrupted.

    So, no. It also makes no sense whatsoever; They're one of THE defenders against Chaos.

    Tzeentch plays the long game
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 604
    JungleElf said:

    Andy mentioned the dragons being 'good' and uncorrupted.

    So, no. It also makes no sense whatsoever; They're one of THE defenders against Chaos.

    To be fair, most narratives involving corruption don’t tell you in advertising snippets that the party who ends up being corrupted is the bad guy the whole time. They usually wait for some kind of plot reveal moment during the story

    Prepare for the ultimate who done it! You’ll be blown away and won’t see it coming! It’s going to be this guy! I mean you won’t see it coming!
  • Ben1990Ben1990 Registered Users Posts: 995
    RamsesIII said:

    Alright fellas, put on your tin foil hats. I think quite a few of us raised an eyebrow when we first heard that the Moon Empress was using many-eyed crowmen to hunt down Tzeentch cultists within Cathay, so I started theorizing as a joke that she might be Tzeentch-aligned somehow. That being said, the more I learned (and granted, it wasn't a lot) the more it felt like there's some odd coincidences that, if not intentional, must have at least left someone involved with the lore scratching their head.



    Do I think this is the case? Not yet, there's certainly some reaching involved if you take them individually, but I do think that it's curious how we know so little lore about her at the moment yet everything fits like a glove with the possibility that she might have some form of connection with Tzeentch. Even if it's done on purpose, it wouldn't be the first time a connection between Tzeentch and some other element is posed as a question but remains vague enough to potentially mean nothing. What do you think?

    That's some crazy Witch Hunter Alex Jones level of conspiracy theory...BUT DISTURBINGLY PLAUSIBLE.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,549
    Moon Empress is Sus.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 5,678
    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.
  • EbdanianEbdanian Registered Users Posts: 31
    JungleElf said:

    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.

    Taking hard stances like this on lore that is in the process of being written and hasnt been revealed in its entirety is a very dangerous game that is just setting you up for embarrassment.

    Cathay is completely new territory and we have absolutely no idea which direction GW is taking it.
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 5,678
    Ebdanian said:

    JungleElf said:

    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.

    Taking hard stances like this on lore that is in the process of being written and hasnt been revealed in its entirety is a very dangerous game that is just setting you up for embarrassment.

    Cathay is completely new territory and we have absolutely no idea which direction GW is taking it.
    Except Andy said they're basically good guys and 'care' about their subjects.

    That's a far more plausible stance than 'Hurr-durr, part of a Tzeentchian scheme!'.

    The whole of Cathay has been built AGAINST Chaos.
  • EbdanianEbdanian Registered Users Posts: 31
    JungleElf said:

    Ebdanian said:

    JungleElf said:

    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.

    Taking hard stances like this on lore that is in the process of being written and hasnt been revealed in its entirety is a very dangerous game that is just setting you up for embarrassment.

    Cathay is completely new territory and we have absolutely no idea which direction GW is taking it.
    Except Andy said they're basically good guys and 'care' about their subjects.

    That's a far more plausible stance than 'Hurr-durr, part of a Tzeentchian scheme!'.

    The whole of Cathay has been built AGAINST Chaos.
    Why is the idea that the chaos god of manipulation is manipulating someone so far fetched to you exactly? I dont mean that in a condescending way genuinely curious
  • PoorManatee6197PoorManatee6197 Registered Users Posts: 1,732
    I had to google chang'e, honestly it sounded like a bad joke XD.

    Adding to your theory, in this artwork the flame on the hand of Zhao Ming looks suspiciously similar to the symbol of Tzeentch:




    And could it be that he gets so well with his subjects because they all are part of the cult?
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Karaz Bryn, Karag Dum, Karak Vlag, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,582
    Andy said the Moon Empress is not evil. I think this alone quashes any Tzeentch-related speculation. Unless you are saying Tzeentch can be not evil too?
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,549
    JungleElf said:

    Ebdanian said:

    JungleElf said:

    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.

    Taking hard stances like this on lore that is in the process of being written and hasnt been revealed in its entirety is a very dangerous game that is just setting you up for embarrassment.

    Cathay is completely new territory and we have absolutely no idea which direction GW is taking it.
    Except Andy said they're basically good guys and 'care' about their subjects.

    That's a far more plausible stance than 'Hurr-durr, part of a Tzeentchian scheme!'.

    The whole of Cathay has been built AGAINST Chaos.
    I think keeping some Darkness for Cathay is good imo; instead of making them Gooder-than-Good Tau like at expensive of Empire, High Elves etc.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • GordregGordreg Registered Users Posts: 73
    Tzeentch cares not where the plots land; plots against his favoured champions are just as delicious as those against his mortal foes. His own schemes will work against his other own schemes, and he will laugh as all come to fruition and change. And 'good guys' working tirelessly against Tzeentch and the forces of chaos only to find they've acting been his unwilling puppets all along is a particular delight.
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 1,161
    Sooooo you are saying Dragon emperor was banging Tzeench all this time?
    BsFG dwarf
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,896
    edited October 17
    Ebdanian said:

    JungleElf said:

    Ebdanian said:

    JungleElf said:

    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.

    Taking hard stances like this on lore that is in the process of being written and hasnt been revealed in its entirety is a very dangerous game that is just setting you up for embarrassment.

    Cathay is completely new territory and we have absolutely no idea which direction GW is taking it.
    Except Andy said they're basically good guys and 'care' about their subjects.

    That's a far more plausible stance than 'Hurr-durr, part of a Tzeentchian scheme!'.

    The whole of Cathay has been built AGAINST Chaos.
    Why is the idea that the chaos god of manipulation is manipulating someone so far fetched to you exactly? I dont mean that in a condescending way genuinely curious
    Because all of the “evidence” presented here is stuff that has existed in-universe for a long time, and the idea that one of the leaders of Cathay (the leader responsible for rooting out Chaos, no less) has been corrupted by Chaos all that time but Cathay still somehow resists Chaos is f—-in’ dumb. That is a level of bad writing that would be shameful even for GW.
    ò_ó
Sign In or Register to comment.