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The Moon Empress is suspicious (THEORY)

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  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,775
    According to Andy Hall.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/299559/enormous-amount-of-new-cathay-lore

    The Moon Empress: She leads the agents of Cathay and commands the clandestine spy networks of the empire, “Mistress of the Ancestral Realms, Commander of the Imperial Agents, and Master of the Moon Winds.” She and her agents have a big role in snuffing out clandestine cults. Mention of the “many eyed crow-men” of the Empress. Sound a bit like secret police, terrifying for people who see them.

    - She often goes about the empire in disguise talking to common people. Honestly she sounds kinda spooky. The spymaster who could be anyone.

    - She’s named, Kuei Yin (Quei? I’m not great at Chinese spelling, apologies).
  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,052
    talonn said:

    Andy said the Moon Empress is not evil. I think this alone quashes any Tzeentch-related speculation. Unless you are saying Tzeentch can be not evil too?

    I don't recall an exact statement that she isn't evil, but he very well may have said that she is, I'm willing to believe that. In any case, the theory doesn't necessarily involve her being malicious or consciously serving Tzeentch (perhaps the title is a little misleading? I wasn't certain to what extent I wanted to present this as a serious theory since I started it just for fun and it's certainly got the feel of an Alex Jones-level conspiracy stuff as others have mentioned XD), it could also just be that she's being very slowly, very subtly corrupted or simply misdirected despite her good intentions.

    Good people are vulnerable to misguided judgement, or the influence of another entity!
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 1,406
    edited October 18
    I don't think she's corrupted, but I could become on board with the fact that she's somehow being manipulated into not being very efficient at rooting Tzeentchian folloship in Cathay.

    I mean, why is Tzeentch the only chaos god that has any kind of power in Cathay, for such a long time and so overtly? Also controlling major cities even?

    I'm thinking Tzeentch probably has friends in high places. Maybe not the moon goddess but perhaps the head crowman that is deceiving her about his true actions or something like that.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,597
    MiniaAr said:

    I don't think she's corrupted, but I could become on board with the fact that she's somehow being manipulated into not being very efficient at rooting Tzeentchian folloship in Cathay.

    I mean, why is Tzeentch the only chaos god that has any kind of power in Cathay, for such a long time and so overtly? Also controlling major cities even?

    I'm thinking Tzeentch probably has friends in high places. Maybe not the moon goddess but perhaps the head crowman that is deceiving her about his true actions or something like that.

    The loss of D'ien Ch'ing was a shame for Cathay's lore.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,052
    JungleElf said:

    Ebdanian said:

    JungleElf said:

    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.

    Taking hard stances like this on lore that is in the process of being written and hasnt been revealed in its entirety is a very dangerous game that is just setting you up for embarrassment.

    Cathay is completely new territory and we have absolutely no idea which direction GW is taking it.
    Except Andy said they're basically good guys and 'care' about their subjects.

    That's a far more plausible stance than 'Hurr-durr, part of a Tzeentchian scheme!'.

    The whole of Cathay has been built AGAINST Chaos.
    I'd argue Andy's statement was about the dragons of Cathay in general and may not have referred to the Moon empress herself, but assuming she is benevolent, being a good guy is no safeguard from being manipulated by Tzeentch, or running the risk of being corrupted later on when she is not careful enough.

    Also schemes that seem to go directly against chaos at first, but prove useful to Tzeentch in the long run has always been a part of his modus operandi. You can argue it's bad writing but it's entirely in line with how he's always been, the question of "how much of what happens in the warhammer world is part of Tzeentch's inscrutable scheme" is a question that's remained relevant throughout the development of the lore. And it's not like something built as a weapon against chaos cannot be taken control of by the chaos gods, or even have resulted from a chaos god's deceit.

    Just in case, SPOILERS FOR THE VORTEX CAMPAIGN:

    In fact, while it's not done by one of the four chaos gods, something like it is a vital part of the plot of the Vortex campaign. The Skaven force the other core races into action by deceiving them (and in the case of the Lizardmen and HE, they perform rituals to stop the threat of chaos) into powering their own ritual to bring the Horned Rat into the world. A minor chaos god manipulates order races to make something with the purpose of fighting off chaos, when in reality it's all according to said minor chaos god's plan, and their efforts power his evil scheme.
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 611
    JungleElf said:

    No, just no. This is insane.

    Let Cathay be Cathay; Its Lords should be Order-focused. And Andy said they are.

    What if she was a tzeentch dlc and not Cathay at all? Tzeentch faction with access to some Cathay units? Still hard pass?
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 611

    Sooooo you are saying Dragon emperor was banging Tzeench all this time?

    If this angle was the story, I would assume she became corrupted in the not to distant past. Just long enough ago to boil over now. She didn’t have to corrupted on day one of their kingdom.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,873
    Yup, agree.

    It might explain why "despite her best efforts" Cathay has been unable to practically weed out Tzeentch influence unlike the other gods.

    Also many eyed crowmen just sound like Tzeentchian agents.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • Polard2013Polard2013 Registered Users Posts: 1
    edited October 18
    Interesting.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,575
    edited October 18
    Meh... simply too similar to the DE storyline with Morathi to be considered by GW.

    The Celestial Dragons have been around before Chaos entered the world, sure Tzeentch probably occasionally is able to use their actions against them but that is because Tzeentch tries to set up events that no matter what happens it benefits Tzeentch which in plans centuries in coming to fruition can probably escape even Dragons that live for millenia.

    The main reason is I doubt that the Emperor or his other children who have been fighting Chaos for a few thousand years would be blind to a corrupted Empress, that some of their agents have been corrupted is almost guaranteed, that perhaps 1 or even 2 of the 'missing' children of the Empress have been corrupted seems a plausible plot point.

    Celestial Dragons are also probably the rare creatures whose patience matches the Chaos gods, even if they don't have the same amount of outright power filling them from all the psychic feelings of innumerable beings, they do not have human or even Elven timescales or vulnerabilities.

    I'd even suggest the Celestial Dragons might occasionally attempt the scheme of keeping your friend close and your enemies even closer, watching a known Chaos agent which would tempt Tzeentch to use even though knowing the Celestial Dragons are aware of that agent would increase Tzeentch's desire to use that agent.

    Tzeentch is more than clever, and can consider thousands of potential futures but is not unbeatable and usually enjoyes setting up scenarios that whatever their opponents do, the end result benefits Tzeentch but all that cleverness and waiting for schemes to unfold also means direct actions and attacks are that much more rare while Tzeentch is focused on the schemes, giving that an outlet reduces the direct attacks on the Great Bastion.

    Just that there are agents sneaking around spying on loyal servants (and some disloyal ones) ultimately fuels Tzeentch power. It probably expains why the Dragon Empress is so active in directing the subterfuge as her direct actions are less likely to benefit Tzeentch than having dozens of spymasters spread across Cathay, all of who would be emminently more corruptable than the Empress herself.
    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,589
    RamsesIII said:

    talonn said:

    Andy said the Moon Empress is not evil. I think this alone quashes any Tzeentch-related speculation. Unless you are saying Tzeentch can be not evil too?

    I don't recall an exact statement that she isn't evil, but he very well may have said that she is, I'm willing to believe that. In any case, the theory doesn't necessarily involve her being malicious or consciously serving Tzeentch (perhaps the title is a little misleading? I wasn't certain to what extent I wanted to present this as a serious theory since I started it just for fun and it's certainly got the feel of an Alex Jones-level conspiracy stuff as others have mentioned XD), it could also just be that she's being very slowly, very subtly corrupted or simply misdirected despite her good intentions.

    Good people are vulnerable to misguided judgement, or the influence of another entity!


    11:50

    "Don't mistake that of her being evil. She is certainly not."
  • ChoraChora Registered Users Posts: 611
    talonn said:

    RamsesIII said:

    talonn said:

    Andy said the Moon Empress is not evil. I think this alone quashes any Tzeentch-related speculation. Unless you are saying Tzeentch can be not evil too?

    I don't recall an exact statement that she isn't evil, but he very well may have said that she is, I'm willing to believe that. In any case, the theory doesn't necessarily involve her being malicious or consciously serving Tzeentch (perhaps the title is a little misleading? I wasn't certain to what extent I wanted to present this as a serious theory since I started it just for fun and it's certainly got the feel of an Alex Jones-level conspiracy stuff as others have mentioned XD), it could also just be that she's being very slowly, very subtly corrupted or simply misdirected despite her good intentions.

    Good people are vulnerable to misguided judgement, or the influence of another entity!


    11:50

    "Don't mistake that of her being evil. She is certainly not."
    That certainly doesn’t support the idea. Thanks for taking the time to find it
  • Docpain222Docpain222 USRegistered Users Posts: 342
    brago90 said:

    RamsesIII said:

    Alright fellas, put on your tin foil hats. I think quite a few of us raised an eyebrow when we first heard that the Moon Empress was using many-eyed crowmen to hunt down Tzeentch cultists within Cathay, so I started theorizing as a joke that she might be Tzeentch-aligned somehow. That being said, the more I learned (and granted, it wasn't a lot) the more it felt like there's some odd coincidences that, if not intentional, must have at least left someone involved with the lore scratching their head.



    Do I think this is the case? Not yet, there's certainly some reaching involved if you take them individually, but I do think that it's curious how we know so little lore about her at the moment yet everything fits like a glove with the possibility that she might have some form of connection with Tzeentch. Even if it's done on purpose, it wouldn't be the first time a connection between Tzeentch and some other element is posed as a question but remains vague enough to potentially mean nothing. What do you think?

    And Tzeentch is the creator of chaos dragons.
    Really needed a big tin foil hat for this one.... but hey, I like the effort you put into it!
  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,052
    talonn said:

    RamsesIII said:

    talonn said:

    Andy said the Moon Empress is not evil. I think this alone quashes any Tzeentch-related speculation. Unless you are saying Tzeentch can be not evil too?

    I don't recall an exact statement that she isn't evil, but he very well may have said that she is, I'm willing to believe that. In any case, the theory doesn't necessarily involve her being malicious or consciously serving Tzeentch (perhaps the title is a little misleading? I wasn't certain to what extent I wanted to present this as a serious theory since I started it just for fun and it's certainly got the feel of an Alex Jones-level conspiracy stuff as others have mentioned XD), it could also just be that she's being very slowly, very subtly corrupted or simply misdirected despite her good intentions.

    Good people are vulnerable to misguided judgement, or the influence of another entity!


    11:50

    "Don't mistake that of her being evil. She is certainly not."
    Ah thank you, wasn't that hidden at all actually. Guess if there is a connection, It might be more manipulative rather than any form of servitude.
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 5,686
    The motivations of major characters like these shouldn't be cheapened to be in the service of others. They should have motives of their own.

    Tzeentch is Tzeentch, obviously, and he's known to manipulate to an enormous degree, but the Dragons are ancient and knowledgable, as well. The lore of Cathay shouldn't be in the service of Tzeentch; The Dragons aren't servants.

    Anyway, Andy is quite clear on the matter.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,775
    talonn said:

    RamsesIII said:

    talonn said:

    Andy said the Moon Empress is not evil. I think this alone quashes any Tzeentch-related speculation. Unless you are saying Tzeentch can be not evil too?

    I don't recall an exact statement that she isn't evil, but he very well may have said that she is, I'm willing to believe that. In any case, the theory doesn't necessarily involve her being malicious or consciously serving Tzeentch (perhaps the title is a little misleading? I wasn't certain to what extent I wanted to present this as a serious theory since I started it just for fun and it's certainly got the feel of an Alex Jones-level conspiracy stuff as others have mentioned XD), it could also just be that she's being very slowly, very subtly corrupted or simply misdirected despite her good intentions.

    Good people are vulnerable to misguided judgement, or the influence of another entity!


    11:50

    "Don't mistake that of her being evil. She is certainly not."
    Check this thread.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/299559/enormous-amount-of-new-cathay-lore

    It summarizes and organized all information from that video.
  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,052
    JungleElf said:

    The motivations of major characters like these shouldn't be cheapened to be in the service of others. They should have motives of their own.

    Tzeentch is Tzeentch, obviously, and he's known to manipulate to an enormous degree, but the Dragons are ancient and knowledgable, as well. The lore of Cathay shouldn't be in the service of Tzeentch; The Dragons aren't servants.

    Anyway, Andy is quite clear on the matter.

    Characters can have motives of their own and still be deceived/influenced into acting in a way that benefits their enemy. The theory isn't limited to the possibility of the Moon Empress following Tzeentch's orders (and Andy's comment that she's not evil already kind of deconfirms that anyways unless the army book was made to include untrue statements), it also involves the possibility of her unknowingly acting in accordance to Tzeentch's plan.

    Nobody is entirely safe from being deceived by Tzeentch in some capacity. Obviously not everyone is being fooled (unless you believe what some of Tzeentch's servants say, but hey, it's not like their statements should be trusted), but the dragons, ancient and knowledgeable as they are, are not free of such possibility. This doesn't mean that the entirety of Cathay needs to be just a plan of Tzeentch, but portions of the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress' plan with it may have been tampered with to be taken advantage of.
  • ladymissfitladymissfit Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,722
    this is absolute **** nonsense lol. keep going!
    Chaos lords should be women

    Army painter plox
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,912
    RamsesIII said:

    JungleElf said:

    The motivations of major characters like these shouldn't be cheapened to be in the service of others. They should have motives of their own.

    Tzeentch is Tzeentch, obviously, and he's known to manipulate to an enormous degree, but the Dragons are ancient and knowledgable, as well. The lore of Cathay shouldn't be in the service of Tzeentch; The Dragons aren't servants.

    Anyway, Andy is quite clear on the matter.

    Characters can have motives of their own and still be deceived/influenced into acting in a way that benefits their enemy. The theory isn't limited to the possibility of the Moon Empress following Tzeentch's orders (and Andy's comment that she's not evil already kind of deconfirms that anyways unless the army book was made to include untrue statements), it also involves the possibility of her unknowingly acting in accordance to Tzeentch's plan.

    Nobody is entirely safe from being deceived by Tzeentch in some capacity. Obviously not everyone is being fooled (unless you believe what some of Tzeentch's servants say, but hey, it's not like their statements should be trusted), but the dragons, ancient and knowledgeable as they are, are not free of such possibility. This doesn't mean that the entirety of Cathay needs to be just a plan of Tzeentch, but portions of the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress' plan with it may have been tampered with to be taken advantage of.
    Sure, anybody can be deceived by Tzeentch; that’s Tzeentch’s whole thing. But that is a completely different argument from there being a connection between him and the Moon Empress is as hinted at by her lore.
    ò_ó
  • RamsesIIIRamsesIII Registered Users Posts: 1,052
    Warlocke said:

    RamsesIII said:

    JungleElf said:

    The motivations of major characters like these shouldn't be cheapened to be in the service of others. They should have motives of their own.

    Tzeentch is Tzeentch, obviously, and he's known to manipulate to an enormous degree, but the Dragons are ancient and knowledgable, as well. The lore of Cathay shouldn't be in the service of Tzeentch; The Dragons aren't servants.

    Anyway, Andy is quite clear on the matter.

    Characters can have motives of their own and still be deceived/influenced into acting in a way that benefits their enemy. The theory isn't limited to the possibility of the Moon Empress following Tzeentch's orders (and Andy's comment that she's not evil already kind of deconfirms that anyways unless the army book was made to include untrue statements), it also involves the possibility of her unknowingly acting in accordance to Tzeentch's plan.

    Nobody is entirely safe from being deceived by Tzeentch in some capacity. Obviously not everyone is being fooled (unless you believe what some of Tzeentch's servants say, but hey, it's not like their statements should be trusted), but the dragons, ancient and knowledgeable as they are, are not free of such possibility. This doesn't mean that the entirety of Cathay needs to be just a plan of Tzeentch, but portions of the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress' plan with it may have been tampered with to be taken advantage of.
    Sure, anybody can be deceived by Tzeentch; that’s Tzeentch’s whole thing. But that is a completely different argument from there being a connection between him and the Moon Empress is as hinted at by her lore.
    Connection can mean many things, and the possibility of the Moon Empress being deceived or influenced through indirect means rather than having any kind of deal with him is part of the conclusion in the image. Hardly anything actually conclusive of course (which is why I write "could" as opposed to "is"), just some fun speculation. The point of the comment you're replying to is that such a connection, which I've kept vague, is not implausible, nor would it need to come at the cost of Cathay's worth as its own army with its own motives and goals.
  • GyrvendalGyrvendal Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 51
    That's a pretty neat theory, although I doubt it will end up being the case. Would be kind of like Saruman in LoTR. The guys studies the ring and the dark lord's arts in order to counter him, but ends up unwittingly being corrupted. Maybe the Moon Empress isn't corrupted herself, but maybe her supposed raven servants secretly serve Tzeench and are ready to turn against her at the right moment.
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