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Gaze of Nagash

Le_VilainLe_Vilain Registered Users Posts: 26
Very stronk, reduce damage a little

Comments

  • BloodyStreamBloodyStream Registered Users Posts: 44
    It has to be strong to compete with other spells in the lore
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 709
    It's also among the most WoM consuming magic missile (and literraly the most expansive to overcast).

    Since there is way to dodge/block it I think it's pretty much fine.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?

  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 619
    Skabscrath is worth a mention too.
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,680
    Skabscrath is certainly over powerful for what it is and needs a cast time extension
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 709

    Skabscrath is certainly over powerful for what it is and needs a cast time extension

    yeah, this should be a thing to apply to breath abilities and spells in general imo (though you could argue that some do way less damages and don't need it).
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,811
    People finally realising how strong Gaze is after i been preaching about it for years :tongue:

    But i see no big issue with it, it is a trade of for VC that it means almost no winds for healing or summons.

    Skabscrath is the thing needing nerfs both for VC and VP
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 685
    My only issue with it is how easy it is to snipe horse (and horse like) mounted characters with it.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,975
    Yea it probably could use some tweaks to the potential alpha damage you can squeeze out with it, in a similar manner to what was done to VG. It is already not the most wom-efficient so it doesn't need any nerfs to that imo, but maybe OC should be redesigned to rather add some debuff, or something along these lines, instead of doubling damage (leading to big alpha strike)?
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,680
    edited October 2021
    OC having the same damage as normal but with a large leadership debuff would be interesting I think say - 16 for 10 seconds

    Thematic, useful to try and force a break and makes it different to VG
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    Master rune of flight should do the same and be available in MP to rune lords
    BsFG dwarf
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    edited October 2021
    Le_Vilain said:

    Very stronk, reduce damage a little

    It is the most expensive by WOM magic missile in the game right now. And you can block it.
  • Le_VilainLe_Vilain Registered Users Posts: 26
    i dont mind if is the most expensive, OC and u can almost one shot every mounted character( horse,chariot)
    ofc u always have a bodyblocking every second in the game...
  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 254
    Magic missiles already so bad that they can’t even dent any monster’s health bar. Why do you want them to suck even harder? Go cry in a toddler’s crib.
  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 254

    Magic missiles already so bad that they can’t even dent any monster’s health bar. Why do you want them to suck even harder? Go cry in a toddler’s crib.

    I'm not sure why I got disagree. Is it because of my insult or because magic missiles are fine? I choose the insult because some magic missiles like skaven lore of stealth's ninja star doesn't really do that much damage to anything.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 281

    Magic missiles already so bad that they can’t even dent any monster’s health bar. Why do you want them to suck even harder? Go cry in a toddler’s crib.

    I'm not sure why I got disagree. Is it because of my insult or because magic missiles are fine? I choose the insult because some magic missiles like skaven lore of stealth's ninja star doesn't really do that much damage to anything.
    We are not talking about these ones are we.
  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 254
    ThisIsREM said:

    Magic missiles already so bad that they can’t even dent any monster’s health bar. Why do you want them to suck even harder? Go cry in a toddler’s crib.

    I'm not sure why I got disagree. Is it because of my insult or because magic missiles are fine? I choose the insult because some magic missiles like skaven lore of stealth's ninja star doesn't really do that much damage to anything.
    We are not talking about these ones are we.
    You guys are talking about gaze of Nagash, which is a magic missile, and magic missile in general are under powered.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,811
    edited October 2021

    ThisIsREM said:

    Magic missiles already so bad that they can’t even dent any monster’s health bar. Why do you want them to suck even harder? Go cry in a toddler’s crib.

    I'm not sure why I got disagree. Is it because of my insult or because magic missiles are fine? I choose the insult because some magic missiles like skaven lore of stealth's ninja star doesn't really do that much damage to anything.
    We are not talking about these ones are we.
    You guys are talking about gaze of Nagash, which is a magic missile, and magic missile in general are under powered.
    Strongly disagree, magic missiles in general are viewed as very strong or even too strong in some cases.

    What you write vs monsters is somewhat true however it does depend on which magic missile and against which monster, those go from underpowered to OP in case by case, but buffing any would make it way to strong vs some other targets that they good agaisnt.

    Big part of the issue is that there are super tanky monsters and than they are fragile ones, further more what is good vs monsters will be good vs horse characters especially mages on horses.

    Some examples for you to try:

    Hand of the Gods (can 90% HP of arkhan on chariot in 1 shot)
    Gaze of nagash
    Shems Burning Gaze
    The greenskin little waghh one, forgot name now :(
    Soul Quench

    vs Eagle, Chariot Charecter, Salamander, Any Dragon, Any Griffon Rider

    And than you got magic missiles such as

    Fireball
    Soul Quench
    amber spear

    Who are very good vs

    Foot Charecters, chariot charecters, war machines, flanks of infantry units (can 60 to 80% a unit from a flank).


    I think most people will actually nerf fireball for starters and from the others maybe only amber spear needs a buff and that is only due to lower range and misscast consuming mana.

    If you think Gaze of Nagash is UP than shoot a horse mage with an overcast one and come back to this thread with the outcome.
  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 254

    ThisIsREM said:

    Magic missiles already so bad that they can’t even dent any monster’s health bar. Why do you want them to suck even harder? Go cry in a toddler’s crib.

    I'm not sure why I got disagree. Is it because of my insult or because magic missiles are fine? I choose the insult because some magic missiles like skaven lore of stealth's ninja star doesn't really do that much damage to anything.
    We are not talking about these ones are we.
    You guys are talking about gaze of Nagash, which is a magic missile, and magic missile in general are under powered.
    Strongly disagree, magic missiles in general are viewed as very strong or even too strong in some cases.

    What you write vs monsters is somewhat true however it does depend on which magic missile and against which monster, those go from underpowered to OP in case by case, but buffing any would make it way to strong vs some other targets that they good agaisnt.

    Big part of the issue is that there are super tanky monsters and than they are fragile ones, further more what is good vs monsters will be good vs horse characters especially mages on horses.

    Some examples for you to try:

    Hand of the Gods (can 90% HP of arkhan on chariot in 1 shot)
    Gaze of nagash
    Shems Burning Gaze
    The greenskin little waghh one, forgot name now :(
    Soul Quench

    vs Eagle, Chariot Charecter, Salamander, Any Dragon, Any Griffon Rider

    And than you got magic missiles such as

    Fireball
    Soul Quench
    amber spear

    Who are very good vs

    Foot Charecters, chariot charecters, war machines, flanks of infantry units (can 60 to 80% a unit from a flank).


    I think most people will actually nerf fireball for starters and from the others maybe only amber spear needs a buff and that is only due to lower range and misscast consuming mana.

    If you think Gaze of Nagash is UP than shoot a horse mage with an overcast one and come back to this thread with the outcome.
    The annoying thing about using a magic missile is the time it takes for a caster to charging it and wait for it to travel to its target, which can be very slow. Worst is when it ended up hitting the terrain or misses, Not to mentioned the cooldown. Did you know Gaze of Nagash has a cooldown of 28 second? doesn't that sound too freaking long? That is why I wish it gets its damage buff so it is worth the trouble to unleash the damn thing. Or just make it charging up/travel faster.

    You also mentioned if magic missile were buffed, it could be even more effective against characters on horse/eagle mount, which is problematic due to how low their health were already. but you also forgetting that they are pretty fast, so I say player should learn how to dodge with their horse/eagle characters, or learn when or where to engage their character when there's enemy casters around. Better is to always have a specialize unit go for the casters' head before they begain chant their spells.

    As for magic missiles killing an infantry? anything will do! many infantry in the game easily dies to artillery, monsters. Anything! some spell like amber spear are effective against them because of its unit penetrations, but it is also annoying to use it for infantry killing effectively because it requires terrain and character positions. Better to just to wind blast or something.

    So in the end, magic missile are still weak. It Is better to not debuff them any further or else they'll get super annoying to use. It also doesn't really need to have its damage buffed, but rather buff its cooldown instead so it isn't such a pain in the arse to use.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,811

    ThisIsREM said:

    Magic missiles already so bad that they can’t even dent any monster’s health bar. Why do you want them to suck even harder? Go cry in a toddler’s crib.

    I'm not sure why I got disagree. Is it because of my insult or because magic missiles are fine? I choose the insult because some magic missiles like skaven lore of stealth's ninja star doesn't really do that much damage to anything.
    We are not talking about these ones are we.
    You guys are talking about gaze of Nagash, which is a magic missile, and magic missile in general are under powered.
    Strongly disagree, magic missiles in general are viewed as very strong or even too strong in some cases.

    What you write vs monsters is somewhat true however it does depend on which magic missile and against which monster, those go from underpowered to OP in case by case, but buffing any would make it way to strong vs some other targets that they good agaisnt.

    Big part of the issue is that there are super tanky monsters and than they are fragile ones, further more what is good vs monsters will be good vs horse characters especially mages on horses.

    Some examples for you to try:

    Hand of the Gods (can 90% HP of arkhan on chariot in 1 shot)
    Gaze of nagash
    Shems Burning Gaze
    The greenskin little waghh one, forgot name now :(
    Soul Quench

    vs Eagle, Chariot Charecter, Salamander, Any Dragon, Any Griffon Rider

    And than you got magic missiles such as

    Fireball
    Soul Quench
    amber spear

    Who are very good vs

    Foot Charecters, chariot charecters, war machines, flanks of infantry units (can 60 to 80% a unit from a flank).


    I think most people will actually nerf fireball for starters and from the others maybe only amber spear needs a buff and that is only due to lower range and misscast consuming mana.

    If you think Gaze of Nagash is UP than shoot a horse mage with an overcast one and come back to this thread with the outcome.
    The annoying thing about using a magic missile is the time it takes for a caster to charging it and wait for it to travel to its target, which can be very slow. Worst is when it ended up hitting the terrain or misses, Not to mentioned the cooldown. Did you know Gaze of Nagash has a cooldown of 28 second? doesn't that sound too freaking long? That is why I wish it gets its damage buff so it is worth the trouble to unleash the damn thing. Or just make it charging up/travel faster.

    You also mentioned if magic missile were buffed, it could be even more effective against characters on horse/eagle mount, which is problematic due to how low their health were already. but you also forgetting that they are pretty fast, so I say player should learn how to dodge with their horse/eagle characters, or learn when or where to engage their character when there's enemy casters around. Better is to always have a specialize unit go for the casters' head before they begain chant their spells.

    As for magic missiles killing an infantry? anything will do! many infantry in the game easily dies to artillery, monsters. Anything! some spell like amber spear are effective against them because of its unit penetrations, but it is also annoying to use it for infantry killing effectively because it requires terrain and character positions. Better to just to wind blast or something.

    So in the end, magic missile are still weak. It Is better to not debuff them any further or else they'll get super annoying to use. It also doesn't really need to have its damage buffed, but rather buff its cooldown instead so it isn't such a pain in the arse to use.
    Im not sure if you're being serious or not in the first paragraph? What you descirbe are reason why its allowed to have such good dmg, if they never missed, or had no way to avoid they be broken OP, further more if the travel time was instant and lower cooldown it would just nuke stuff without players being able to react.

    Magic missiles in general are cheap in terms of WOM for their dmg output.

    You cannot dodge some magic missiles on eagle and evenless so on horseback no matter what you do, only fireball really can be dodged, gaze of nagash, hand of gods, GS one all cannot be avoided on fast mounds so your comment is just not correct. They can sometime miss however but very rearaly, only possible way to dodge them on flying mount is to change elevation over silly pieces of terrain but simply just dont cast it when opponent is near those.

    As for as infantry well it depends, in many cases fireball is better than windblast in others windblast might be but that is fine, fireball is way more versatile. I use ONLY fireball vs dwarfs with many factions and easy get tonnes of value from it. Likewsie vs HE's.

    You saying magic missiles are weak does not make it so, i frankly think you havent used them effectively if you feel this is the case.

    They are easy to use, good for WOM, and are very strong.

    There is no way you will convince me otherwise when what you say is simply not correct in relation to them.

    I actually think this could be somones alternative account trying to get a reaction because i cannot really beliave what im reading in regards to magic missiles.

    Are you talking about Multiplayer? or Ultra founds in single player? If you play on Ultra HP than maybe i can semi understand where you are coming from in relation to dmg to monsters but otherwise absolutely no way any of what you said is reflective of magic missiles and their strength.


  • CalstormCalstorm Registered Users Posts: 1
    First post mostly lurk, had to chime in here though. My feedback will be for multiplayer specifically since WOM are so easy to gain in SP.

    Gaze of Nagash needs to be strong for the following reasons:

    Firstly you need to consider Vampire Counts as a whole and how heavily they rely on their Lords and their Lore to succeed and function as a faction. Invocation of Nehek and Raise Dead are such a staple requirement that casting anything other than these two (especially in multiplayer) is almost trolling yourself as the VC player. The prevailing argument as to why VC is only allowed to have decent at best units is because the Lords and the Lore of Magic are so strong, which both have already received some nerfs in that regard.

    So, Gaze of Nagash needs to be worth casting if the VC player is going to risk using WOM on a high risk spell that could be better used on another Invo or a Raise Dead. Since the VC rely on WOM and the aforementioned two spells, you can see why this is a risky decision.

    Secondly, you also need to consider the amount of counter-play that is already built into the game. Counter-play that the rival player does not have to do anything for, since it is built in. I am talking about miss chance, terrain, 1/2 or less of the missiles hitting, miscast, and so on. These counter-play measures already make the spell a risky cast, and as I said this is before; the rival player does not even have to use their brain, the spell is already countering itself so to speak.

    Thirdly, if you are on a mounted unit of any type and you are getting nuked by Gaze of Nagash repeatedly, then you aren't being very aware of your surroundings nor respecting the unit using it. Mounted units can easily dodge Gaze completely or 90% of it if you are looking out for it, which after the first cast you should absolutely be aware the VC player is trying to snipe you. If that does happen, I say again, the VC player took a chance and used WOM they could have used for heal or Raise Dead. In short if you're getting hit by Gaze even unmounted, the spell isn't op, you just need to take advantage of the situation as the rival player.

    The situation being that the VC player now has (assuming they overcast Gaze) 1 less overcast heal and/or 3 less raise dead. And that is assuming you are getting sniped for good damage per cast. So assuming that say the VC player cast Gaze twice for 1200 damage. I believe its 14wom to over cast so that is a total of 28 wom. Over cast Invo is 12 x 2 is 24 and raise dead is 4 x 7 = 28. Over casting Gaze loses you 2 Overcast Invo and 7 Raise Dead. That is a huge amount of loss for a very risky spell, and honestly 1200 damage for 2 Gaze Casts is pitiful compared to the loss you take as a VC player, being that your army relies (and in my personal opinion over reliance) on Invocation.

    Now if other armies like say for example, Wood Elves had a missile spell with the strength of Gaze (Amber Spear doesn't count for lord sniping) along with their army roster and lord sniping capabilities with missile units, lore of life magic and such then I could see how it would be to OP and need a nerf. Can you imagine spawning into multiplayer and being rained down with a decently damaging missile spell along with archer and lord fire while not having an army roster that needs to be healed like VC does?

    I haven't even gone into the counter measure the player themselves can take paired with the built in counter-play the game already has...

    As it stands, considering my talking points here I hope I have shed a little light on why Gaze does an okay amount of damage for its risk factor not only to itself as a spell, but to the army and faction as a whole. An army that heavily relies on Invocation of Nehek, Raise Dead, has no missile or lord sniping units other than their own lords themselves, and who's units are inferior to every other armies units because they can be healed, brought back and so forth.

    I hope this also sheds a little light on why magic and offensive magic like missiles need to be strong (as long as there is reasonable counter play for said offensive spells) for certain factions who heavily rely on it to function and be successful. I am already predicting many nerf threads for Tzeentch with little regard or care as to why that particular faction and lords will have such strong magic.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,101
    Calstorm said:

    Secondly, you also need to consider the amount of counter-play that is already built into the game. Counter-play that the rival player does not have to do anything for, since it is built in. I am talking about miss chance, terrain, 1/2 or less of the missiles hitting, miscast, and so on. These counter-play measures already make the spell a risky cast, and as I said this is before; the rival player does not even have to use their brain, the spell is already countering itself so to speak.

    Thirdly, if you are on a mounted unit of any type and you are getting nuked by Gaze of Nagash repeatedly, then you aren't being very aware of your surroundings nor respecting the unit using it. Mounted units can easily dodge Gaze completely or 90% of it if you are looking out for it, which after the first cast you should absolutely be aware the VC player is trying to snipe you. If that does happen, I say again, the VC player took a chance and used WOM they could have used for heal or Raise Dead. In short if you're getting hit by Gaze even unmounted, the spell isn't op, you just need to take advantage of the situation as the rival player.

    The situation being that the VC player now has (assuming they overcast Gaze) 1 less overcast heal and/or 3 less raise dead. And that is assuming you are getting sniped for good damage per cast. So assuming that say the VC player cast Gaze twice for 1200 damage. I believe its 14wom to over cast so that is a total of 28 wom. Over cast Invo is 12 x 2 is 24 and raise dead is 4 x 7 = 28. Over casting Gaze loses you 2 Overcast Invo and 7 Raise Dead. That is a huge amount of loss for a very risky spell, and honestly 1200 damage for 2 Gaze Casts is pitiful compared to the loss you take as a VC player, being that your army relies (and in my personal opinion over reliance) on Invocation.

    Now if other armies like say for example, Wood Elves had a missile spell with the strength of Gaze (Amber Spear doesn't count for lord sniping) along with their army roster and lord sniping capabilities with missile units, lore of life magic and such then I could see how it would be to OP and need a nerf. Can you imagine spawning into multiplayer and being rained down with a decently damaging missile spell along with archer and lord fire while not having an army roster that needs to be healed like VC does?

    To be fair, a single overcast of Gaze of Nagash can do 1200 damage, so you can definitely get more than 1200 damage from 2 uses of it. Second, not all large characters are mounted or fast so dodging isn't easy in all cases. You also don't need to overcast it. The overcast is twice the cost for twice the projectiles, so the only advantage of overcasting is time.

    Also, what's with the wood elf example? AoK can do like 800 damage right at the start of the battle. Amber spear can also do around 800 -1k damage to single entities so I'm not sure why that spell counts less than GoN.

    I'm not saying the spell is OP, but it's not as weak as you make it seem.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 654
    Like others have said, gaze is fine. The only cheesy strat with it is double casting for with Ghorst to start a game. And this is only strong vs a few lords. The spell costs a ton of magic and doesn't have an enormous range. The reason why the little Wah missile was insane was because of the cheap cost and long range. Multiple casts of gaze are WOM not used on healing and zombies.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392

    The only cheesy strat with it is double casting for with Ghorst to start a game. And this is only strong vs a few lords.

    And if you let Ghorst with his 23 speed to get in range and position to OC gaze your caster/Lord. You do deserve it.
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