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How to fight wood elves ?

2

Comments

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    edited November 2021


    I think there are dwarf builds that make this quite even on any map vs any aproach

    I did not say that it can be bad for dawi. IMHO it is even matchup on most maps. And some are heavy in dawi favor.
    But with rare ocassion of some really unbalanced maps i would not fear to pick WE vs dawi.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,975
    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    edited November 2021

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.

    I would say Terras are probably the most oppressive with really good micro out of all flyers in game right now. Simply due to how hard it is to kill them with range. And you need just 1 good rock drop to get cost back. Do not forget that you can boost them with support of skink chiefs that have insane total damage due to extreme ammo count.
    Gyros while having impressive synergy with MEs restock. Do lack 360 shooting and Tempest which make counter of them quite trivial if you have air or AP range.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 281
    Pocman said:

    If you are losing with dwarfs against WEs regularly, you are doing something very wrong.

    I think I have seen at least 5 WE vs Dwarfs games at the top of the tournament level (last stages with known players). WE won all but one game..... perhaps these top 1% players are doing something very wrong though and need your coaching....
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,811
    ThisIsREM said:

    Pocman said:

    If you are losing with dwarfs against WEs regularly, you are doing something very wrong.

    I think I have seen at least 5 WE vs Dwarfs games at the top of the tournament level (last stages with known players). WE won all but one game..... perhaps these top 1% players are doing something very wrong though and need your coaching....
    I would say they do, i seen the dwarf armies in those games and those are not the ones WE's have a hard time against.

    I do think vs a dwarf main this match-up is very hard for a WE main, just for some reason players who are not known for their dwarf plays are picking DW here.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,068
    edited November 2021

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.



    Match starts at 3:26:08.

    This is the fundamentally flawed game design problem that exists currently that capture points needs to resolve.

    Games should never deescalate the tension from a scrappy battle to a circular surround and shoot. Think of how different this end game would've been with capture points (this also highlights exactly why the idea that shooting would stop capping would be utterly pointless as an implementation of capture points).

    Far too many high level matches turn into situations like this and it is to the game's detriment in a viewing and playing experience. Luckily the devs can see this clearly and have made appropriate changes.
    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder

    #TWW3=No.1MultiplayerRTS2022
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,811
    edited November 2021

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.



    Match starts at 3:26:08.

    This is the fundamentally flawed game design problem that exists currently that capture points needs to resolve.

    Games should never deescalate the tension from a scrappy battle to a circular surround and shoot. Think of how different this end game would've been with capture points (this also highlights exactly why the idea that shooting would stop capping would be utterly pointless as an implementation of capture points).

    Far too many high level matches turn into situations like this and it is to the game's detriment in a viewing and playing experience. Luckily the devs can see this clearly and have made appropriate changes.
    ...Ofcourse Empire should be force into melee vs a faction who is Superior in melee...
    Its not like Norsca has lack of slowing effects incase they do come up against a faction that uses their own Strengh to try to win the game. Ofcourse not like Norsca has Javelin hunters either...

    This perfectly showcases why capture points need to be done correctly and not dictate the game and not just force mindless melee in match-ups where one factions is clearly better at melee than the other.

    It be auto win match-up if Empire was not allowed to shoot Norsca to gain an advantage prior to engagement.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,068

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.



    Match starts at 3:26:08.

    This is the fundamentally flawed game design problem that exists currently that capture points needs to resolve.

    Games should never deescalate the tension from a scrappy battle to a circular surround and shoot. Think of how different this end game would've been with capture points (this also highlights exactly why the idea that shooting would stop capping would be utterly pointless as an implementation of capture points).

    Far too many high level matches turn into situations like this and it is to the game's detriment in a viewing and playing experience. Luckily the devs can see this clearly and have made appropriate changes.
    ...Ofcourse Empire should be force into melee vs a faction who is Superior in melee...
    Its not like Norsca has lack of slowing effects incase they do come up against a faction that uses their own Strengh to try to win the game. Ofcourse not like Norsca has Javelin hunters either...

    This perfectly showcases why capture points need to be done correctly and not dictate the game and not just force mindless melee in match-ups where one factions is clearly better at melee than the other.

    It be auto win match-up if Empire was not allowed to shoot Norsca to gain an advantage prior to engagement.
    The point is more the Empire player should not have the luxury of unlimited time to expend their ammunition with the Norscan player unable to do a thing because their counters were gone. That is where (one of) the flaws are and is perfectly illustrated from this match.
    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder

    #TWW3=No.1MultiplayerRTS2022
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,680
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,975

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.



    Match starts at 3:26:08.

    This is the fundamentally flawed game design problem that exists currently that capture points needs to resolve.

    Games should never deescalate the tension from a scrappy battle to a circular surround and shoot. Think of how different this end game would've been with capture points (this also highlights exactly why the idea that shooting would stop capping would be utterly pointless as an implementation of capture points).

    Far too many high level matches turn into situations like this and it is to the game's detriment in a viewing and playing experience. Luckily the devs can see this clearly and have made appropriate changes.
    That's not fundamentally flawed game design. Why should one player not react to being shot and just stand in a circle and win unless the opponent engages in melee? THAT would have been fundamentally flawed game design. If you have ammo on ranged units, nothing should force them to rush into melee and suicide. It would be beyond stupid!

    In this game, energyzed was not abused, he lost.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,975
    tank3487 said:

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.

    I would say Terras are probably the most oppressive with really good micro out of all flyers in game right now. Simply due to how hard it is to kill them with range. And you need just 1 good rock drop to get cost back. Do not forget that you can boost them with support of skink chiefs that have insane total damage due to extreme ammo count.
    Gyros while having impressive synergy with MEs restock. Do lack 360 shooting and Tempest which make counter of them quite trivial if you have air or AP range.
    My point is that these few units (hawks, handgun bats and gyros mostly) are kind of oppressive ONLY in a few select MU where the opponent has to over-invest a lot to counter them, and if they don't they lose their caster/lord/wincon for it. To me terradons usually don't kill your lord/mage/wincon like the 3 mentioned above.

    I'd like to see something done about these, and the common denominator here is that they are flying ranged units so maybe a new cap should be introduced for flying ranged units, say 4 or even 3.

    The other thing I find oppressive in this game is when horse/chariot mages/lords gets overly nuked by some abilities/spells.

    What these two things have in common is that in a few MU you are forced to bring two mages because you know you will lose one of them, or you know your lord is on a timer and will die within a certain amount of time. That's busted, but it's basically a problem isolated to flying ranged and some abilities/spells that connect too well with horses and double-hit chariots.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    edited November 2021


    Match starts at 3:26:08.
    This is the fundamentally flawed game design problem that exists currently that capture points needs to resolve.

    Norsca is just trash tier faction. There is just no point to bring it in any balance discussion. It is not about something being better/something being worse.
    There is tonns of problems in Norsca roster:
    1) All Norsca Lords are trash(Wulfrick was ok until his ship was nerfed into useless thing that barely do damage now and it is his only trick, hunter of champions are quite mediocre thing for LL). And you cannot even skip them and take cheap caster instead of Lord like all normal factions.
    2) Fimirs are just expensive trash. They are slow and do not bring enough punch to compensate astronomical cost of such slow unit.
    3) Norsca are stuck with only 2 decent infantry units Marauders and berserkers.
    4) With infantry sticknes rework only decent Norsca struggle to get through infantry masses. And skins do trade horribly vs any infantry in which they do stuck now.
    5) Frost Wyrm while not being extremely bad due to slow(any unit with slow can be used in game), are a bit pricy for being such paper.
    6) Chariots are significantly worse with infantry rework.
    7) Mammonths suck now.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,068

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.



    Match starts at 3:26:08.

    This is the fundamentally flawed game design problem that exists currently that capture points needs to resolve.

    Games should never deescalate the tension from a scrappy battle to a circular surround and shoot. Think of how different this end game would've been with capture points (this also highlights exactly why the idea that shooting would stop capping would be utterly pointless as an implementation of capture points).

    Far too many high level matches turn into situations like this and it is to the game's detriment in a viewing and playing experience. Luckily the devs can see this clearly and have made appropriate changes.
    That's not fundamentally flawed game design. Why should one player not react to being shot and just stand in a circle and win unless the opponent engages in melee? THAT would have been fundamentally flawed game design. If you have ammo on ranged units, nothing should force them to rush into melee and suicide. It would be beyond stupid!

    In this game, energyzed was not abused, he lost.
    Energyzed lost by the rules of the game he opted into, so of course he wasn't abused. The game is what it is currently, you play it for that not for what it will be. Ditto for kiting or camping or blobbing. Play the current conditions.

    I am talking about the game design though and that is where it is abusive or at least very poorly done. I have changed my opinion somewhat btw. Depending on how reinforcements work and what the win conditions in the game are exactly, there is a case for ranged units to stopping capping.

    In any case, I am just repeating myself now so will catch yall when we have seen Domination.

    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder

    #TWW3=No.1MultiplayerRTS2022
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    Out of all matchups Norsca are good only vs Chaos. Simply due to it being pure skirmish vs skirmish game(Norsca skirmish are a bit better plus wolfs>dogs). And it is only thing that not got into trash tier for Norsca.
    Vs other factions. In best case you would get even matchup, in worst case it is one sided stomp of weak Norsca.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,213

    I think loupi said it well, except for some fliers (in addition to hawks & sisters I would add gyros and deck droppers in some mu mainly, terradons maybe too but not as bad) kiting is over all kept in check very well.



    Match starts at 3:26:08.

    This is the fundamentally flawed game design problem that exists currently that capture points needs to resolve.

    Games should never deescalate the tension from a scrappy battle to a circular surround and shoot. Think of how different this end game would've been with capture points (this also highlights exactly why the idea that shooting would stop capping would be utterly pointless as an implementation of capture points).

    Far too many high level matches turn into situations like this and it is to the game's detriment in a viewing and playing experience. Luckily the devs can see this clearly and have made appropriate changes.
    utterly ridiculous statement to say that players making the choices that improve their chance of winning is "fundamentally flawed design".

    players should of course be able to deescalate a fight from glorious honourable melee face smash to shooting. thats called being a competent player. Capture points shouldnt even come into play in this game as both players were attacking the whole time. norsca player lost the ability to handle empire missiles cav and was punished, thats what happens when good players play this game, nothing flawed or abusive about it.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 654
    I wish people on these forums would just admit that kite is meta defining and completely OP right now in TW. It really has been for a while, probably since at least the mass changes. It's always hilarious when Norsca and WOC are brought because 9/10 in competitive play they come with roughly 6 kiting units of horsemen/horsemasters. Pistoleers and outriders are some of the strongest Empire units.

    Don't even get me started on the air spam kite units. Sisters + 4 hawks or 3 terradons with a skink chief. They all are way too difficult to kill because of how missile damage gets scaled down when shooting at a height disadvantage. I really hope two changes are made to air kite in TW:W3:
    1)Damage scaling for height is removed or greatly reduced.
    2)Huge accuracy reduction for 360 fire-while-moving or simply get rid of fire-while-moving 360 for air units, which is pretty absurd to think about anyways.

    It is possible to beat the WE yea but here is why playing against them IMO is not fun:

    1) Sisters are OP. Insane damage, hard to kill, fast, not overly expensive, tons of ammo, built in regrowth.

    2) OP archers for the cost. Even their basic archers punch way above.

    3)Sylvan knights force opponents to spend money taking damage, which is inconvenient for many factions and the WE don't even need to take them 100%. Just the threat of them taking the knights is enough to force opponents to prepare or just lose.

    4) Hawk riders are now incredibly toxic ever since 360 shooting. Way too tough for many factions to kill so the WE just box with their foot units then fly around taking almost no damage while deleting important enemy units.

    I don't think kite should be eliminated as a strategy but I don't see how after watching competitive play for the last few years you could say it isn't the strongest strategy. IMO it is way too strong and I hope to see other strategies actually made viable again in TW3. That being said reinforcements are a terrible idea and I hope they do not make it into MP in game 3.
  • damon40000damon40000 Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    worst match ups is when sisters kill whatever they like and there is no counterplay, for some factions literally
    BsFG dwarf
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 804
    4 hawk riders cost 4K how are people loosing to this either person playing the build is exceptionaly good at micro or the opponent is incredibly bad. Assuming costs after caster and lord that’s likely over 6k unless they’re completely stripped of mount and extra spells/items that leaves very little room for chaff or cavalry.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,811

    worst match ups is when sisters kill whatever they like and there is no counterplay, for some factions literally

    Want to try that? You pick sisters and tell me which faction to use and i show you there is counter play for all of them.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,293
    edited November 2021

    I wish people on these forums would just admit that kite is meta defining and completely OP right now in TW. It really has been for a while, probably since at least the mass changes. It's always hilarious when Norsca and WOC are brought because 9/10 in competitive play they come with roughly 6 kiting units of horsemen/horsemasters. Pistoleers and outriders are some of the strongest Empire units.

    Don't even get me started on the air spam kite units. Sisters + 4 hawks or 3 terradons with a skink chief. They all are way too difficult to kill because of how missile damage gets scaled down when shooting at a height disadvantage. I really hope two changes are made to air kite in TW:W3:
    1)Damage scaling for height is removed or greatly reduced.
    2)Huge accuracy reduction for 360 fire-while-moving or simply get rid of fire-while-moving 360 for air units, which is pretty absurd to think about anyways.

    It is possible to beat the WE yea but here is why playing against them IMO is not fun:

    1) Sisters are OP. Insane damage, hard to kill, fast, not overly expensive, tons of ammo, built in regrowth.

    Meh. They deal terrible damage against single targets, and have zero utility.



    2) OP archers for the cost. Even their basic archers punch way above.

    I would say the basic ones are the only ones OP, plus hagbane, and just by about 25 gold. Waystalkers are probably overpriced, deepwood are okay.


    3)Sylvan knights force opponents to spend money taking damage, which is inconvenient for many factions and the WE don't even need to take them 100%. Just the threat of them taking the knights is enough to force opponents to prepare or just lose.

    Is not like magic attacks aren't great against WEs in any case...



    4) Hawk riders are now incredibly toxic ever since 360 shooting. Way too tough for many factions to kill so the WE just box with their foot units then fly around taking almost no damage while deleting important enemy units.

    Agree on this one 100%



    I don't think kite should be eliminated as a strategy but I don't see how after watching competitive play for the last few years you could say it isn't the strongest strategy. IMO it is way too strong and I hope to see other strategies actually made viable again in TW3. That being said reinforcements are a terrible idea and I hope they do not make it into MP in game 3.

    ThisIsREM said:

    Pocman said:

    If you are losing with dwarfs against WEs regularly, you are doing something very wrong.

    I think I have seen at least 5 WE vs Dwarfs games at the top of the tournament level (last stages with known players). WE won all but one game..... perhaps these top 1% players are doing something very wrong though and need your coaching....
    Anecdotal evidence is a ****.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 804
    edited November 2021
    Maybe it’s just me but most of my WE build only bring 3 or 4 ranged(preferably waywatchers or deepwood scouts or gladerider I think variants aren’t worth it let nets help ramp damage and conserve ammo)
    discounting lord who for me is normally glady on stag(obviously with net. A caster 4-5 chaff one elite infantry and cavalry unit and what ever else I can afford goes to light cavalry.

    Maybe other people have had luck with fully mobile WE builds but I find that it’s a stupid choice vs veteran players as they’ll just go full cavalry/hounds and wreck house.
  • Sindri_TWACSindri_TWAC Registered Users Posts: 132
    edited November 2021

    I wish people on these forums would just admit that kite is meta defining and completely OP right now in TW. It really has been for a while, probably since at least the mass changes. It's always hilarious when Norsca and WOC are brought because 9/10 in competitive play they come with roughly 6 kiting units of horsemen/horsemasters. Pistoleers and outriders are some of the strongest Empire units.

    I find it particulary hilarious, when certain people, who exclusively use kiting builds, show up and lobby for this nonsense, as if everyone actualy enjoying it.

    People hate it. All this "skill" nonsense argument is pure hipocrisy - there is just as much skill behind kiting, as with positioning your artillery or choosing right melee or ranged engagements. I switched completely to kiting + SEM after the cavalry "fix", since bringing anything else has become pointless in most situations and believe it or not - people will actualy call you out on this, gues why? Becouse people despise it, and thanks CA in advance for atleast trying to adress it in domination mode.

    Most people, who post here are just lobbying for their favoured kiting playstyle and will never admit, that it is even a meta, acting as if actual balanced builds would be meta, while we all know - they are since long not.

    You want to win? Bring as much kiting cav and as many SEM as you can.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,975
    L2p
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,662

    L2p

    Won a couple of tournaments, play with high level player all the time. Have over a thousand hours in MP. Can play basically any race and meme build and win.

    I simply dislike WE and struggle against their very unique playstyle. Hence why I am asking what do you guys think.

    Before their DLC they were fine, but since then I simply have not figured them out yet.


  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,213

    L2p

    Won a couple of tournaments, play with high level player all the time. Have over a thousand hours in MP. Can play basically any race and meme build and win.

    I simply dislike WE and struggle against their very unique playstyle. Hence why I am asking what do you guys think.

    Before their DLC they were fine, but since then I simply have not figured them out yet.
    One of the best ways to learn to beat a faction is to play that faction. If you dislike WE you probably dont play them that much so it makes sense you would struggle against them.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,811

    L2p

    Won a couple of tournaments, play with high level player all the time. Have over a thousand hours in MP. Can play basically any race and meme build and win.

    I simply dislike WE and struggle against their very unique playstyle. Hence why I am asking what do you guys think.

    Before their DLC they were fine, but since then I simply have not figured them out yet.
    Very sure his referring to the two posters above you and not you seeing as its more relevant.

    As for you struggle have a look at the reply i wrote or just pick EMP, GS, LZM, BM and you be fine
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,662

    L2p

    Won a couple of tournaments, play with high level player all the time. Have over a thousand hours in MP. Can play basically any race and meme build and win.

    I simply dislike WE and struggle against their very unique playstyle. Hence why I am asking what do you guys think.

    Before their DLC they were fine, but since then I simply have not figured them out yet.
    Very sure his referring to the two posters above you and not you seeing as its more relevant.

    As for you struggle have a look at the reply i wrote or just pick EMP, GS, LZM, BM and you be fine
    Thanks its a good comment. Gonna apply the lessons in my next games.


  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,975

    L2p

    Won a couple of tournaments, play with high level player all the time. Have over a thousand hours in MP. Can play basically any race and meme build and win.

    I simply dislike WE and struggle against their very unique playstyle. Hence why I am asking what do you guys think.

    Before their DLC they were fine, but since then I simply have not figured them out yet.
    Yes it was not directed at you, but at the person above that has been spamming these kinds of posts the last few days, which just goes to show he complains about the game being too hard instead of learning how to play it.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,662

    L2p

    Won a couple of tournaments, play with high level player all the time. Have over a thousand hours in MP. Can play basically any race and meme build and win.

    I simply dislike WE and struggle against their very unique playstyle. Hence why I am asking what do you guys think.

    Before their DLC they were fine, but since then I simply have not figured them out yet.
    Yes it was not directed at you, but at the person above that has been spamming these kinds of posts the last few days, which just goes to show he complains about the game being too hard instead of learning how to play it.
    Oh sorry, misunderstood the statement ! My bad !


  • RamsoPanzerRamsoPanzer Registered Users Posts: 16
    In my opinion Wood Elves need a nerf as soon as possible. The problem comes from The twisted and the Twilight DLC. If you are a decent player, you can deal with Wood Elves kiting. But since that DLC, you not only have to prepare a build for a possible kiting. Because of the new units introduced, now you could face strong cavalry builds, strong infantry builds, monsters, the strongest ethereal unit out there, and the strongest sniping units. This is too much because they can excel in any line with no real weaknesses.

    Bonus: Another thing that happened here is the poison nerf. Now glade riders with poison are virtually uncatchable.
This discussion has been closed.