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Why does the Lightning Dragon cast Heals?

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  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,372

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.
    Yin and Yang are advanced applications of the elements of magic being combinations of 4. Calling it thematically similar to lore of shadow very much undersells the uniqueness of the results produced by Yin magic (though I do believe shadow is 1 of the for elements used to produce the lore).

    The issue here is trying to hold Cathay's element system up as a 1 to 1 with the Old One's wind system. While the 8 lores are largely the same the way they are applied and the elements that are focused upon will vary.

    The association of storms primarily with lightning is strongly taken from either IRL cultures, or more charitably from the College of Magic which deeply associates lore of heaven with storms (the celestial hurricanum has it right in the name for example).

    That association with storms however doesn't change what a lore is at base nor the spell effects one can produce with a single lore. Washing healing magic over people like water is an equally valid interpretation as channelling life energy from the earth or plants into someone to heal them.

    As an aside, the reason lore of the deep would be inappropriate to include is because deep is just an application of Dhar, like Necromancy and can be traced from the Old One's magical theory. When Cathay wants to raise the dead they just turn to lore of Yin which seems to have produced the same effects without the negative side effects of Necromancy.
    The 8 winds are the 8 winds, whatever you call them or associate them with. They weren’t invented by anyone, but are a thing of pure Chaos energy. They’re essentially physical* things in Warhammer like say water and oil. The physical matter and locations they associate with are going to be the same (because that is related to the physical* properties of the wind) regardless of what you name or associate them with.

    So Ghyran is magic which associates with water and nature and plant life and is the wind that produces healing effects.

    In the Elven paradigm that’s associated primarily with Life and water is though of secondarily to that as something vital for life.

    In the Cathayan paradigm it’s apparently associated with Water primarily, which also makes sense as the magic associates with water. Presumably any plant and biological effects are though of similarly to plantbending and bloodbending in Avatar.

    Two very different cultural interpretations, but it’s still the same physical* stuff that produces the same effects, jut perceived in different ways.

    Azyr is the magic which saturates in the air in the sky (to the point it’s physically* weaker under cover). The effects it produces relates to divination and stuff in the sky. The Elven and Cathayan paradigms will have entirely different cultural understandings on what that is and how it is used (although it’s worth noting the term ‘Astromancer’ is used by both), but it’ll still pertain to divination and stuff in the sky, because that is what Azyr *is* physically.

    Ditto for all the other lores/elements.

    *for want of a better word. It is kind of ‘physical’ in a similar way to light.

    Yin and Yang appear to just be different halves of High Magic, just using four rather than all eight of the winds. Like High Magic it allows you to combine the effects of multiple lores in harmony, creating effects you wouldn’t be able to do with one lore alone.

    It’s a great example of how the Cathayan paradigm is very different but still uses the same building blocks.

    Lore of Yin clearly includes both Uglu and Shyish, and it will be using Shyish plus the power of the other 3 to raise the dead. It doesn’t have the negative effects of Necromancy as, like High Magic, it’s a ‘clean burn’ using multiple winds in harmony rather than a discordant mix like Dhar.

    High Elf High Magic probably could be used to raise the dead (all the building block are there, also cf Kroak ), however the idea is abhorrent to them so it’s not in their paradigm. Again, interesting cultural differences, but using the same toolset.

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.

    has an intelligent creature who understands the winds of magic what wind of magic will benefit her and Cathay.
    You mean CA understands what wind of magic is extremely popular with newbies because yes lore of life benefits cathay, a faction with no healing magic, indeed.
    Also, that's the generic buff I was talking about. I expected something a bit more flashy and visual, like making a storm cloud around her during dragon form that causes localized rain wherever she goes.
    What do you mean? The lore clearly states that the Cathayans, especially the dragons have an expert understanding of all of the winds of magic and can use them how they wish. The Storm Dragon made her choice. It's that simple.
    So the storm dragon, who literally repeats MISTRESS OF STORMS whenever you click her, decided it was more fitting for her to have lore of magic that was about healing and nature attuned instead of the one lore of magic that would actually accentuate her powers over the weather?
    How come then that Zhao Ming, an alchemist, actually sticks to his trade and therefore has lore of metal?
    Yes, because she is surrounded by an aura of storms but does that stop an intelligent being who understands the needs of her role and chooses a wind of magic that is more beneficial to her role? A natural or innate power doesn't dictate her use of or expertise in a particular WoM, she doesn't need to make a decision based on one due to another. Which WoM you train in is a choice.
    As an individual with choice, yeah nothing stops her. As a fictional character it’s unthematic.

    Also, due to the nature of magic, being temperamentally similar makes it easier to use a wind. So ‘theme’ has an in universe physical benefit as well.
    No, I think that's a rather childish way of looking at narrative, one of her titles is Storm Dragon she must be totally focused on on zapping everything with electricity. I'm glad they didn't turn everything and everyone into a base cliche. A storm in a sense is merely a correction to an unbalanced environment and in a sense heals that chaotic state.

    She called Storm Dragon; must shoot electricity and nothing else. I'm really glad that didn't happen and her entire ID and relevance was based around a derivative of a storm.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,998
    @Lord_Zarkov We're basically on the same page here, but you're carrying forward assumptions that place the Old One theory as "true" which is going to cause issues farther down the line.

    The 8 winds are the 8 winds, whatever you call them or associate them with. They weren’t invented by anyone, but are a thing of pure Chaos energy. They’re essentially physical* things in Warhammer like say water and oil. The physical matter and locations they associate with are going to be the same (because that is related to the physical* properties of the wind) regardless of what you name or associate them with.


    This is fundamentally correct, but the idea of wind versus element are equally accurate, which is to say their both descriptors meant to reflect a real world phenomenon and so are subject to observation error. Privilege one over the other is going to lead to inaccurate assumptions farther down the line.

    Yin and Yang appear to just be different halves of High Magic, just using four rather than all eight of the winds. Like High Magic it allows you to combine the effects of multiple lores in harmony, creating effects you wouldn’t be able to do with one lore alone.


    This is the same logic which leads to Dhar being Dark Magic, Necromancy, Chaos Magic, Lore of Hashut, and Skaven magic in some sources. It's the assumption that all magics are equally explainable by the Old One's paradigm which is clearly untrue.

    Yin and Yang are unique applications of magic that produce unique outcomes potentially through similar mechanism to high magic, I.E. mixing winds to produce complimentary and specific effects. However that doesn't make it an offshoot, or a half effect, it makes it a unique results produced with a similar starting point. High magic and Dark magic both have an element of brute force to their use, combining all of the winds without rhyme or reason on the premise that more is better. This may result in High magic being incapable of producing the effects of Yin and Yang by nature of its inclusion of all of the winds, in the same way Dark Magic does not intuitively lead to manipulation of the dead, something Nagash developed though a different application of similar techniques.

    But this is mostly just fun speculation the real issue is the assumption that the Old One paradigm is correcting, which in turns leads to the conclusion that a character associated with storms should therefore reflective lightning primarily, rather than say water. The argument that storms are temperamentally more similar to lightning and therefore the lore of heaven only tracks if you assume the Old One paradigm is more accurate in its representation, rather than the Cathayan paradigm which has the element of water (and therefore the lore of life) being clearly associated with storms.

    Lightning being present isn't an unreasonable expectation (breath weapon please) but the idea that it would be more thematic for her to cast from the lore of heaven does not track without the presumption that western assumptions are correct (both in universe and out of universe where storms associations vary by cultures along similar lines).
  • Lord_Zarkov#7252Lord_Zarkov#7252 Registered Users Posts: 1,920
    edited November 2021

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.
    Yin and Yang are advanced applications of the elements of magic being combinations of 4. Calling it thematically similar to lore of shadow very much undersells the uniqueness of the results produced by Yin magic (though I do believe shadow is 1 of the for elements used to produce the lore).

    The issue here is trying to hold Cathay's element system up as a 1 to 1 with the Old One's wind system. While the 8 lores are largely the same the way they are applied and the elements that are focused upon will vary.

    The association of storms primarily with lightning is strongly taken from either IRL cultures, or more charitably from the College of Magic which deeply associates lore of heaven with storms (the celestial hurricanum has it right in the name for example).

    That association with storms however doesn't change what a lore is at base nor the spell effects one can produce with a single lore. Washing healing magic over people like water is an equally valid interpretation as channelling life energy from the earth or plants into someone to heal them.

    As an aside, the reason lore of the deep would be inappropriate to include is because deep is just an application of Dhar, like Necromancy and can be traced from the Old One's magical theory. When Cathay wants to raise the dead they just turn to lore of Yin which seems to have produced the same effects without the negative side effects of Necromancy.
    The 8 winds are the 8 winds, whatever you call them or associate them with. They weren’t invented by anyone, but are a thing of pure Chaos energy. They’re essentially physical* things in Warhammer like say water and oil. The physical matter and locations they associate with are going to be the same (because that is related to the physical* properties of the wind) regardless of what you name or associate them with.

    So Ghyran is magic which associates with water and nature and plant life and is the wind that produces healing effects.

    In the Elven paradigm that’s associated primarily with Life and water is though of secondarily to that as something vital for life.

    In the Cathayan paradigm it’s apparently associated with Water primarily, which also makes sense as the magic associates with water. Presumably any plant and biological effects are though of similarly to plantbending and bloodbending in Avatar.

    Two very different cultural interpretations, but it’s still the same physical* stuff that produces the same effects, jut perceived in different ways.

    Azyr is the magic which saturates in the air in the sky (to the point it’s physically* weaker under cover). The effects it produces relates to divination and stuff in the sky. The Elven and Cathayan paradigms will have entirely different cultural understandings on what that is and how it is used (although it’s worth noting the term ‘Astromancer’ is used by both), but it’ll still pertain to divination and stuff in the sky, because that is what Azyr *is* physically.

    Ditto for all the other lores/elements.

    *for want of a better word. It is kind of ‘physical’ in a similar way to light.

    Yin and Yang appear to just be different halves of High Magic, just using four rather than all eight of the winds. Like High Magic it allows you to combine the effects of multiple lores in harmony, creating effects you wouldn’t be able to do with one lore alone.

    It’s a great example of how the Cathayan paradigm is very different but still uses the same building blocks.

    Lore of Yin clearly includes both Uglu and Shyish, and it will be using Shyish plus the power of the other 3 to raise the dead. It doesn’t have the negative effects of Necromancy as, like High Magic, it’s a ‘clean burn’ using multiple winds in harmony rather than a discordant mix like Dhar.

    High Elf High Magic probably could be used to raise the dead (all the building block are there, also cf Kroak ), however the idea is abhorrent to them so it’s not in their paradigm. Again, interesting cultural differences, but using the same toolset.

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.

    has an intelligent creature who understands the winds of magic what wind of magic will benefit her and Cathay.
    You mean CA understands what wind of magic is extremely popular with newbies because yes lore of life benefits cathay, a faction with no healing magic, indeed.
    Also, that's the generic buff I was talking about. I expected something a bit more flashy and visual, like making a storm cloud around her during dragon form that causes localized rain wherever she goes.
    What do you mean? The lore clearly states that the Cathayans, especially the dragons have an expert understanding of all of the winds of magic and can use them how they wish. The Storm Dragon made her choice. It's that simple.
    So the storm dragon, who literally repeats MISTRESS OF STORMS whenever you click her, decided it was more fitting for her to have lore of magic that was about healing and nature attuned instead of the one lore of magic that would actually accentuate her powers over the weather?
    How come then that Zhao Ming, an alchemist, actually sticks to his trade and therefore has lore of metal?
    Yes, because she is surrounded by an aura of storms but does that stop an intelligent being who understands the needs of her role and chooses a wind of magic that is more beneficial to her role? A natural or innate power doesn't dictate her use of or expertise in a particular WoM, she doesn't need to make a decision based on one due to another. Which WoM you train in is a choice.
    As an individual with choice, yeah nothing stops her. As a fictional character it’s unthematic.

    Also, due to the nature of magic, being temperamentally similar makes it easier to use a wind. So ‘theme’ has an in universe physical benefit as well.
    No, I think that's a rather childish way of looking at narrative, one of her titles is Storm Dragon she must be totally focused on on zapping everything with electricity. I'm glad they didn't turn everything and everyone into a base cliche. A storm in a sense is merely a correction to an unbalanced environment and in a sense heals that chaotic state.

    She called Storm Dragon; must shoot electricity and nothing else. I'm really glad that didn't happen and her entire ID and relevance was based around a derivative of a storm.
    I mean the model literally has a ton of lightning effects in the game already…

    If it had wind and rain effects then it’d be a different conversation entirely (and I agree, wind and rain effects would be equally cool).

    It’s thematically very odd that the model representing a wizard has a ton of lightning effects but no lightning spells mechanically. It’s discordant.

    CA have already made the step Storm=Lightning but then given her spells associated with something else entirely which don’t thematically link to *any* sort of storm.

    Edit: also a Storm is a chaotic state by definition. It’s not really healing anything and is thematically destructive.

  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,372

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.
    Yin and Yang are advanced applications of the elements of magic being combinations of 4. Calling it thematically similar to lore of shadow very much undersells the uniqueness of the results produced by Yin magic (though I do believe shadow is 1 of the for elements used to produce the lore).

    The issue here is trying to hold Cathay's element system up as a 1 to 1 with the Old One's wind system. While the 8 lores are largely the same the way they are applied and the elements that are focused upon will vary.

    The association of storms primarily with lightning is strongly taken from either IRL cultures, or more charitably from the College of Magic which deeply associates lore of heaven with storms (the celestial hurricanum has it right in the name for example).

    That association with storms however doesn't change what a lore is at base nor the spell effects one can produce with a single lore. Washing healing magic over people like water is an equally valid interpretation as channelling life energy from the earth or plants into someone to heal them.

    As an aside, the reason lore of the deep would be inappropriate to include is because deep is just an application of Dhar, like Necromancy and can be traced from the Old One's magical theory. When Cathay wants to raise the dead they just turn to lore of Yin which seems to have produced the same effects without the negative side effects of Necromancy.
    The 8 winds are the 8 winds, whatever you call them or associate them with. They weren’t invented by anyone, but are a thing of pure Chaos energy. They’re essentially physical* things in Warhammer like say water and oil. The physical matter and locations they associate with are going to be the same (because that is related to the physical* properties of the wind) regardless of what you name or associate them with.

    So Ghyran is magic which associates with water and nature and plant life and is the wind that produces healing effects.

    In the Elven paradigm that’s associated primarily with Life and water is though of secondarily to that as something vital for life.

    In the Cathayan paradigm it’s apparently associated with Water primarily, which also makes sense as the magic associates with water. Presumably any plant and biological effects are though of similarly to plantbending and bloodbending in Avatar.

    Two very different cultural interpretations, but it’s still the same physical* stuff that produces the same effects, jut perceived in different ways.

    Azyr is the magic which saturates in the air in the sky (to the point it’s physically* weaker under cover). The effects it produces relates to divination and stuff in the sky. The Elven and Cathayan paradigms will have entirely different cultural understandings on what that is and how it is used (although it’s worth noting the term ‘Astromancer’ is used by both), but it’ll still pertain to divination and stuff in the sky, because that is what Azyr *is* physically.

    Ditto for all the other lores/elements.

    *for want of a better word. It is kind of ‘physical’ in a similar way to light.

    Yin and Yang appear to just be different halves of High Magic, just using four rather than all eight of the winds. Like High Magic it allows you to combine the effects of multiple lores in harmony, creating effects you wouldn’t be able to do with one lore alone.

    It’s a great example of how the Cathayan paradigm is very different but still uses the same building blocks.

    Lore of Yin clearly includes both Uglu and Shyish, and it will be using Shyish plus the power of the other 3 to raise the dead. It doesn’t have the negative effects of Necromancy as, like High Magic, it’s a ‘clean burn’ using multiple winds in harmony rather than a discordant mix like Dhar.

    High Elf High Magic probably could be used to raise the dead (all the building block are there, also cf Kroak ), however the idea is abhorrent to them so it’s not in their paradigm. Again, interesting cultural differences, but using the same toolset.

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.

    has an intelligent creature who understands the winds of magic what wind of magic will benefit her and Cathay.
    You mean CA understands what wind of magic is extremely popular with newbies because yes lore of life benefits cathay, a faction with no healing magic, indeed.
    Also, that's the generic buff I was talking about. I expected something a bit more flashy and visual, like making a storm cloud around her during dragon form that causes localized rain wherever she goes.
    What do you mean? The lore clearly states that the Cathayans, especially the dragons have an expert understanding of all of the winds of magic and can use them how they wish. The Storm Dragon made her choice. It's that simple.
    So the storm dragon, who literally repeats MISTRESS OF STORMS whenever you click her, decided it was more fitting for her to have lore of magic that was about healing and nature attuned instead of the one lore of magic that would actually accentuate her powers over the weather?
    How come then that Zhao Ming, an alchemist, actually sticks to his trade and therefore has lore of metal?
    Yes, because she is surrounded by an aura of storms but does that stop an intelligent being who understands the needs of her role and chooses a wind of magic that is more beneficial to her role? A natural or innate power doesn't dictate her use of or expertise in a particular WoM, she doesn't need to make a decision based on one due to another. Which WoM you train in is a choice.
    As an individual with choice, yeah nothing stops her. As a fictional character it’s unthematic.

    Also, due to the nature of magic, being temperamentally similar makes it easier to use a wind. So ‘theme’ has an in universe physical benefit as well.
    No, I think that's a rather childish way of looking at narrative, one of her titles is Storm Dragon she must be totally focused on on zapping everything with electricity. I'm glad they didn't turn everything and everyone into a base cliche. A storm in a sense is merely a correction to an unbalanced environment and in a sense heals that chaotic state.

    She called Storm Dragon; must shoot electricity and nothing else. I'm really glad that didn't happen and her entire ID and relevance was based around a derivative of a storm.
    I mean the model literally has a ton of lightning effects in the game already…

    If it had wind and rain effects then it’d be a different conversation entirely (and I agree, wind and rain effects would be equally cool).

    It’s thematically very odd that the model representing a wizard has a ton of lightning effects but no lightning spells mechanically. It’s discordant.

    CA have already made the step Storm=Lightning but then given her spells associated with something else entirely which don’t thematically link to *any* sort of storm.

    Edit: also a Storm is a chaotic state by definition. It’s not really healing anything and is thematically destructive.

    It doesn’t matter, she gives off storm damage in melee, that’s fine, but let’s not turn them into electric woman and fire man - tedious.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,390
    OdTengri said:

    Why does the Lightning Dragon cast Heals?

    Especially when Lore of Heavens is culturally the most important lore to Cathay.

    Feels pointlessly over powered and sus..... Like CA is going out of their way to sell a powerful lore of magic despite it not really seeming in character.

    Yup.
  • D4nz0N1nj4Wr1t3r#6847D4nz0N1nj4Wr1t3r#6847 Registered Users Posts: 181
    Well, the Azure Dragon in Chinese Four Symbols represents the wood element...
  • Domokun84Domokun84 Registered Users Posts: 296
    Should have made her a sigmarine...GWS and lightning jeez
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,929

    DrJammat said:

    Here is the CA blog:

    https://www.totalwar.com/blog/who-is-miao-ying-cathay-warhammer-3/

    I did a word search and it doesn't mention 'Lightning' once, it doesn't say 'Thunder' either, it says Storm. She is the Storm Dragon, which in this instance seems to be more about rainstorms (according to her spell selection) so I associate her with wind and rain. Old Warhammer used to associate Jade magic with water, so I can accept the connection.

    Perhaps her model shoudn't crackle with lightning, because she's not the 'Lightning Dragon'.

    Are people reaching for semantics now?
    I think people are merely refining what she could actually be about rather than going a long with the first thing someone puts forward.
    But going far as "Storm...needs water to happen...and water is essential to life...LIFE...Lore of Life! Give her Healing spells!" is stretching the hell out of what she could be just to rationalize her spell choices rather than admitting the obvious, CA messed up

    If CA accidentally removed stealth on Snikck, people in this forum will still rationalize it with something stupid like "how can you be stealth wielding 3 neon green glowing blades?"
  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,372

    DrJammat said:

    Here is the CA blog:

    https://www.totalwar.com/blog/who-is-miao-ying-cathay-warhammer-3/

    I did a word search and it doesn't mention 'Lightning' once, it doesn't say 'Thunder' either, it says Storm. She is the Storm Dragon, which in this instance seems to be more about rainstorms (according to her spell selection) so I associate her with wind and rain. Old Warhammer used to associate Jade magic with water, so I can accept the connection.

    Perhaps her model shoudn't crackle with lightning, because she's not the 'Lightning Dragon'.

    Are people reaching for semantics now?
    I think people are merely refining what she could actually be about rather than going a long with the first thing someone puts forward.
    But going far as "Storm...needs water to happen...and water is essential to life...LIFE...Lore of Life! Give her Healing spells!" is stretching the hell out of what she could be just to rationalize her spell choices rather than admitting the obvious, CA messed up

    If CA accidentally removed stealth on Snikck, people in this forum will still rationalize it with something stupid like "how can you be stealth wielding 3 neon green glowing blades?"
    Yeah, I'd much prefer 'electric woman' defined by a single derivative of someone who is connected to 'storms' which doesn't automatically mean electric as there are 10 general types of storm. She has top tier skills in reference to the WoM, I assume she will pick the most useful rather than playing a basic 1 dimensional theme.

    I'm really glad you lot don't have anything to do with design.. witness electric woman, followed by fire man, followed by 'water woman', let's not turn it into a Dan Brown novel.
  • Valkaar#2507Valkaar#2507 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,758

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.
    Yin and Yang are advanced applications of the elements of magic being combinations of 4. Calling it thematically similar to lore of shadow very much undersells the uniqueness of the results produced by Yin magic (though I do believe shadow is 1 of the for elements used to produce the lore).

    The issue here is trying to hold Cathay's element system up as a 1 to 1 with the Old One's wind system. While the 8 lores are largely the same the way they are applied and the elements that are focused upon will vary.

    The association of storms primarily with lightning is strongly taken from either IRL cultures, or more charitably from the College of Magic which deeply associates lore of heaven with storms (the celestial hurricanum has it right in the name for example).

    That association with storms however doesn't change what a lore is at base nor the spell effects one can produce with a single lore. Washing healing magic over people like water is an equally valid interpretation as channelling life energy from the earth or plants into someone to heal them.

    As an aside, the reason lore of the deep would be inappropriate to include is because deep is just an application of Dhar, like Necromancy and can be traced from the Old One's magical theory. When Cathay wants to raise the dead they just turn to lore of Yin which seems to have produced the same effects without the negative side effects of Necromancy.
    The 8 winds are the 8 winds, whatever you call them or associate them with. They weren’t invented by anyone, but are a thing of pure Chaos energy. They’re essentially physical* things in Warhammer like say water and oil. The physical matter and locations they associate with are going to be the same (because that is related to the physical* properties of the wind) regardless of what you name or associate them with.

    So Ghyran is magic which associates with water and nature and plant life and is the wind that produces healing effects.

    In the Elven paradigm that’s associated primarily with Life and water is though of secondarily to that as something vital for life.

    In the Cathayan paradigm it’s apparently associated with Water primarily, which also makes sense as the magic associates with water. Presumably any plant and biological effects are though of similarly to plantbending and bloodbending in Avatar.

    Two very different cultural interpretations, but it’s still the same physical* stuff that produces the same effects, jut perceived in different ways.

    Azyr is the magic which saturates in the air in the sky (to the point it’s physically* weaker under cover). The effects it produces relates to divination and stuff in the sky. The Elven and Cathayan paradigms will have entirely different cultural understandings on what that is and how it is used (although it’s worth noting the term ‘Astromancer’ is used by both), but it’ll still pertain to divination and stuff in the sky, because that is what Azyr *is* physically.

    Ditto for all the other lores/elements.

    *for want of a better word. It is kind of ‘physical’ in a similar way to light.

    Yin and Yang appear to just be different halves of High Magic, just using four rather than all eight of the winds. Like High Magic it allows you to combine the effects of multiple lores in harmony, creating effects you wouldn’t be able to do with one lore alone.

    It’s a great example of how the Cathayan paradigm is very different but still uses the same building blocks.

    Lore of Yin clearly includes both Uglu and Shyish, and it will be using Shyish plus the power of the other 3 to raise the dead. It doesn’t have the negative effects of Necromancy as, like High Magic, it’s a ‘clean burn’ using multiple winds in harmony rather than a discordant mix like Dhar.

    High Elf High Magic probably could be used to raise the dead (all the building block are there, also cf Kroak ), however the idea is abhorrent to them so it’s not in their paradigm. Again, interesting cultural differences, but using the same toolset.

    Mattock said:

    saweendra said:


    but CA can not be bothered they reworked lore of life it seems , and she is the only caster with healing for all of cathay right now. so its fine

    Well that's the issue. CA is selling her hard by making her the only cathay unit with heals, instead of sticking true to her lore and make her conjure lightning storms like kholek.
    It is true to her lore though. She is the dragon related to water, as the Warhammer version of the black tortoise of the north that is related to water, so she channels the elemental wind of water which is the wind of life in the old world. Lightning in the cathayan perspective is the aggressive element to water, and healing is the positive.
    And she still channels lightning in her idle pose and in her normal attacks. It's futile to denounce that Miao Ying's powers are not primarily electric based.
    Miao Ying should have gotten a reskinned lore of the deeps instead since that lore has actual water effects.
    Not really. She's a Storm Dragon, a Storm is made up of general forces, wind, water, sound/pressure and in some cases electricity. The lore also says her family are experts at using the winds of magic, so she can select any she thinks are most useful.
    And her spells reflect none of that.
    Lore of Yin thematically is similar to Lore of Shadows while Lore of Life's nature imagery just clashes with her.
    Her one bound ability is just a generic buff too.
    No skill that about roiling storm winds and dark clouds, calling forth heavy rainstorms or even just a drizzle, and definitely no spells about smiting enemies with thunderbolts.

    has an intelligent creature who understands the winds of magic what wind of magic will benefit her and Cathay.
    You mean CA understands what wind of magic is extremely popular with newbies because yes lore of life benefits cathay, a faction with no healing magic, indeed.
    Also, that's the generic buff I was talking about. I expected something a bit more flashy and visual, like making a storm cloud around her during dragon form that causes localized rain wherever she goes.
    What do you mean? The lore clearly states that the Cathayans, especially the dragons have an expert understanding of all of the winds of magic and can use them how they wish. The Storm Dragon made her choice. It's that simple.
    So the storm dragon, who literally repeats MISTRESS OF STORMS whenever you click her, decided it was more fitting for her to have lore of magic that was about healing and nature attuned instead of the one lore of magic that would actually accentuate her powers over the weather?
    How come then that Zhao Ming, an alchemist, actually sticks to his trade and therefore has lore of metal?
    Yes, because she is surrounded by an aura of storms but does that stop an intelligent being who understands the needs of her role and chooses a wind of magic that is more beneficial to her role? A natural or innate power doesn't dictate her use of or expertise in a particular WoM, she doesn't need to make a decision based on one due to another. Which WoM you train in is a choice.
    As an individual with choice, yeah nothing stops her. As a fictional character it’s unthematic.

    Also, due to the nature of magic, being temperamentally similar makes it easier to use a wind. So ‘theme’ has an in universe physical benefit as well.
    No, I think that's a rather childish way of looking at narrative, one of her titles is Storm Dragon she must be totally focused on on zapping everything with electricity. I'm glad they didn't turn everything and everyone into a base cliche. A storm in a sense is merely a correction to an unbalanced environment and in a sense heals that chaotic state.

    She called Storm Dragon; must shoot electricity and nothing else. I'm really glad that didn't happen and her entire ID and relevance was based around a derivative of a storm.
    I mean the model literally has a ton of lightning effects in the game already…

    If it had wind and rain effects then it’d be a different conversation entirely (and I agree, wind and rain effects would be equally cool).

    It’s thematically very odd that the model representing a wizard has a ton of lightning effects but no lightning spells mechanically. It’s discordant.

    CA have already made the step Storm=Lightning but then given her spells associated with something else entirely which don’t thematically link to *any* sort of storm.

    Edit: also a Storm is a chaotic state by definition. It’s not really healing anything and is thematically destructive.

    It doesn’t matter, she gives off storm damage in melee, that’s fine, but let’s not turn them into electric woman and fire man - tedious.
    There's a difference between turning her into "electric woman" and just giving her 1-2 lightning based gameplay abilities to represent the lightning powers that she OBVIOUSLY has access to.

    Giving her something related to lightning is not the equivalent of giving her NOTHING else.

    I don't want "electric girl" either. That's basically just a generic Heavens caster.

    But a hybrid lore character with that much lightning exuded in her physical representation should at least have ONE lightning ability in her gameplay representation. Maybe two. But I'll take one if it's all I can get lol.
  • MooncakeMooncake Registered Users Posts: 658
    edited November 2021
    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.
  • Valkaar#2507Valkaar#2507 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,758
    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them.

    Eh, depends on the person. Life doesn't bother me (unless she winds up being ludicrously OP in MP, but I think it's way too early to assess that).

    The lack of lightning does bother me.

    But those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I see nothing wrong with 2 Life Spells, 2 Heavens, 2 Yin.

    Or leave her with 3 Life spells and give her one Lightning bound ability.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,187
    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)
    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
  • T_MACCABBEET_MACCABBEE Registered Users Posts: 700
    And if we are to compare the water element in Total War 3K, the usage of the water element in terms of battle there has something more to do with stratagems and tricking the enemy army more so than one dimensional healing abilities.

    If that were the case, Miao Ying's lore of "life"/water should allow her to instead increase ammunition count, missile range, or increase ability cool downs for enemy lords and agents.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,998
    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
  • T_MACCABBEET_MACCABBEE Registered Users Posts: 700

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
    Except that the GW analogy is already extremely reaching here because as mentioned in the chinese five phases, water is less so associated with rejuvenation and life and more to do with academics, cunning, and strategy. Considering that the cathayans already perceive lore of heavens as the lore of stone, considering that a lot of asian creation myths involve the soil and rock that formed the earth to have come from the heavens, this makes the parallels between the wind of ghyran and actual chinese applications even much farther apart.

    Also, are the detractors to this idea deaf or stubborn? It's not just lightning that's missing from Miao Ying's arsenal. What about her powers to control the rain, the winds and the clouds? You know, actual factors that used to decide the outcome of major chinese battles in the past, like the eastern winds blowing the flames westward that caused the burning of Cao Cao's fleet at the battle of Chibi, or the rain that foiled Zhuge Liang's attempted fire attack at Sima Yi's camp during one of his many failed northern expeditions against Wei?

    At this point, I'll just go back to my original argument that CA decided this because it would make Miao Ying a crutch character for being the only unit in the entirety of cathay that has heals.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,187

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.
    Again that's fine if GW says... oh water therefore Ghyran, but if that's the case than other things should logically follow and they should build a character around the philosophical disposition of the Lore of Life. They didn't do that though, they built a character around the Wu Xing concepts that in no way mesh with the Ghyran ones.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary

    Yes. Those are the lore's that would be associated with the Wu Xing concepts of Water that bear no resemblance to warhammers waters.

    and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    Fair enough, if it makes the most sense to have the Central Dragon Lore of Heavens themed but than why is it that Miao Ying is radiating lightning at every moment, why is the "Water" so therefor "Ghyran" dragon constantly ebbing with electrical energy? When lightning has no association with "Ghyran"

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I don't like that the themes are in conflict with the verisimilitude of the world, it just doesn't read correctly as if the one ham fisting it in isn't paying attention to the setting.

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture,

    If you think that "Chinese Concept for Water" therefore "Warhammer Concept of Water" despite the very different underlying philosopical positions and making any attempt to reconcile their differences is a a complex exploration of Chinese Culture than I feel sorry for you. Had they actually delved into the ideas as opposed to do the crude math of "Water" so therefor "Water" we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.

    They didn't in fact tweak them to fit the setting that's a central problem with the character.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,998

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
    Except that the GW analogy is already extremely reaching here because as mentioned in the chinese five phases, water is less so associated with rejuvenation and life and more to do with academics, cunning, and strategy. Considering that the cathayans already perceive lore of heavens as the lore of stone, considering that a lot of asian creation myths involve the soil and rock that formed the earth to have come from the heavens, this makes the parallels between the wind of ghyran and actual chinese applications even much farther apart.

    Also, are the detractors to this idea deaf or stubborn? It's not just lightning that's missing from Miao Ying's arsenal. What about her powers to control the rain, the winds and the clouds? You know, actual factors that used to decide the outcome of major chinese battles in the past, like the eastern winds blowing the flames westward that caused the burning of Cao Cao's fleet at the battle of Chibi, or the rain that foiled Zhuge Liang's attempted fire attack at Sima Yi's camp during one of his many failed northern expeditions against Wei?

    At this point, I'll just go back to my original argument that CA decided this because it would make Miao Ying a crutch character for being the only unit in the entirety of cathay that has heals.
    The issue here as alluded to above is the assumption of depth your applying to GW's cultural references which, while generally show an interest in the cultures they draw from, are ultimately quite shallow and lean into original world building ideas and rule of cool. Hence why Bretonnia has armor pieces from disparate time periods, Kislev originally had a secret police more reasonably associated with Soviet Russia than the historically appropriate cultures, or the empire being clearly an expy of the Holy Roman Empire that mixes different cultures and time periods with such reckless abandon that armies and weaponry of the early modern history are right next to things taken from the black death centuries earlier.

    GW has never been consistent or particularly accurate in their historical references so it's weird to try and judge Cathay by that standard. The idea of the five elements and the four symbols were noted by GW who then entirely reworked them to fit their old lore and what they thought would be compelling additions grown from that. The army has armors and weaponry from a wide range of time periods because accuracy is a secondary goal, behind authentically lionizing the cultures in question (same thing with new Kislev for the record). The fact that characters are from the ground up designed as references to highly specific events is par for the course in warhammer.

    The idea that lightning, rain, winds, or clouds are missing from Miao Ying relies on the presupposition that not having them represented in more than animations and a connection between water and the preexisting links of water to the lore of life are insufficient for a character called the "Storm Dragon" which isn't an objective standard. I'd personally like to see a lightning breath attack but that's not because it's necessary to properly theme the character it's because my cultural background has me link breath attacks with dragons which comes from the media I'm exposed to (Thanks D&D!).

    It's clearly not just about making a character a crutch here and you have to be intentionally obtuse to draw that conclusion.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,998
    @OdTengri The response above equally applies to your critiques that GW's lore isn't a direct one to one of Wu Xing enough for the character to "make sense". GW are loosely referencing real world cultures because that's what they do for every faction in warhammer fantasy. That's why the lizardmen have aztec architecture despite otherwise being nothing like any south american cultures. That's why the Tomb Kings are bronze age Egypt as imagined by people who grew up watching films like "The Mummy" (1932) who've seen a sarcophagus or two.

    Warhammer has literally never been a complex exploration of any culture and if that's what we're grading Warhammer on we have a much bigger problem. I don't recall claiming that this was a complex exploration, only that you could clearly see what GW were referencing. If that's the impression I gave, it was not intended and it is certainly not reflective of my thoughts on the matter, nor why I'm not bothered by the thematic connection they drew to lore of life.

    As for the mention of verisimilitude, I hate to break it to you but that's a you problem. Feelings of realness are always subjective and what you are bugged by isn't going to bother other people. It's not an objective criticism, it's not a sign that the devs had ulterior motives, it's simply a matter of taste. It bugs you but it doesn't bug me, or based on the response about half of the people who read your initial post.

    Finally, just as a specific point the fact that you're simultaneously arguing that GW didn't follow the "Chinese concept of water" closely enough while also holding the position that they "didn't in fact tweak elements of Chinese culture to match the setting" (both my paraphrases of your last two points) seem to be in direct contradiction with each other.

    What I'm hearing you say here is that they didn't tweak them in a way that matched your taste, which is pretty focused on the presence of lightning even if the element of storms GW settled on as the key point to build around was more holistic than that. This is fine as a subjective criticism, even if it largely comes down to "I don't like this thing". I make those types of criticisms all the time and I'm happy to discuss them because I think it's neat hearing where other people are coming from. What I'm objecting to and what's continually frustrating me is the idea that because you personally don't like something it must have been done to push a product by making something overpowered, rather than just accepting the writers at GW went in a different direction than you would have liked.
  • T_MACCABBEET_MACCABBEE Registered Users Posts: 700

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
    Except that the GW analogy is already extremely reaching here because as mentioned in the chinese five phases, water is less so associated with rejuvenation and life and more to do with academics, cunning, and strategy. Considering that the cathayans already perceive lore of heavens as the lore of stone, considering that a lot of asian creation myths involve the soil and rock that formed the earth to have come from the heavens, this makes the parallels between the wind of ghyran and actual chinese applications even much farther apart.

    Also, are the detractors to this idea deaf or stubborn? It's not just lightning that's missing from Miao Ying's arsenal. What about her powers to control the rain, the winds and the clouds? You know, actual factors that used to decide the outcome of major chinese battles in the past, like the eastern winds blowing the flames westward that caused the burning of Cao Cao's fleet at the battle of Chibi, or the rain that foiled Zhuge Liang's attempted fire attack at Sima Yi's camp during one of his many failed northern expeditions against Wei?

    At this point, I'll just go back to my original argument that CA decided this because it would make Miao Ying a crutch character for being the only unit in the entirety of cathay that has heals.
    The issue here as alluded to above is the assumption of depth your applying to GW's cultural references which, while generally show an interest in the cultures they draw from, are ultimately quite shallow and lean into original world building ideas and rule of cool. Hence why Bretonnia has armor pieces from disparate time periods, Kislev originally had a secret police more reasonably associated with Soviet Russia than the historically appropriate cultures, or the empire being clearly an expy of the Holy Roman Empire that mixes different cultures and time periods with such reckless abandon that armies and weaponry of the early modern history are right next to things taken from the black death centuries earlier.

    GW has never been consistent or particularly accurate in their historical references so it's weird to try and judge Cathay by that standard. The idea of the five elements and the four symbols were noted by GW who then entirely reworked them to fit their old lore and what they thought would be compelling additions grown from that. The army has armors and weaponry from a wide range of time periods because accuracy is a secondary goal, behind authentically lionizing the cultures in question (same thing with new Kislev for the record). The fact that characters are from the ground up designed as references to highly specific events is par for the course in warhammer.

    The idea that lightning, rain, winds, or clouds are missing from Miao Ying relies on the presupposition that not having them represented in more than animations and a connection between water and the preexisting links of water to the lore of life are insufficient for a character called the "Storm Dragon" which isn't an objective standard. I'd personally like to see a lightning breath attack but that's not because it's necessary to properly theme the character it's because my cultural background has me link breath attacks with dragons which comes from the media I'm exposed to (Thanks D&D!).

    It's clearly not just about making a character a crutch here and you have to be intentionally obtuse to draw that conclusion.
    Well it is a crutch when she is literally the only unit in the entire faction that can heal. Mind you this is already an extremely play safe faction that encourages turling on top of being able to use magic unlike dwarfs and now CA throws a dedicated healer that can also fight better than most LLs. I'm not even being objective here. This is a fact.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,998

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
    Except that the GW analogy is already extremely reaching here because as mentioned in the chinese five phases, water is less so associated with rejuvenation and life and more to do with academics, cunning, and strategy. Considering that the cathayans already perceive lore of heavens as the lore of stone, considering that a lot of asian creation myths involve the soil and rock that formed the earth to have come from the heavens, this makes the parallels between the wind of ghyran and actual chinese applications even much farther apart.

    Also, are the detractors to this idea deaf or stubborn? It's not just lightning that's missing from Miao Ying's arsenal. What about her powers to control the rain, the winds and the clouds? You know, actual factors that used to decide the outcome of major chinese battles in the past, like the eastern winds blowing the flames westward that caused the burning of Cao Cao's fleet at the battle of Chibi, or the rain that foiled Zhuge Liang's attempted fire attack at Sima Yi's camp during one of his many failed northern expeditions against Wei?

    At this point, I'll just go back to my original argument that CA decided this because it would make Miao Ying a crutch character for being the only unit in the entirety of cathay that has heals.
    The issue here as alluded to above is the assumption of depth your applying to GW's cultural references which, while generally show an interest in the cultures they draw from, are ultimately quite shallow and lean into original world building ideas and rule of cool. Hence why Bretonnia has armor pieces from disparate time periods, Kislev originally had a secret police more reasonably associated with Soviet Russia than the historically appropriate cultures, or the empire being clearly an expy of the Holy Roman Empire that mixes different cultures and time periods with such reckless abandon that armies and weaponry of the early modern history are right next to things taken from the black death centuries earlier.

    GW has never been consistent or particularly accurate in their historical references so it's weird to try and judge Cathay by that standard. The idea of the five elements and the four symbols were noted by GW who then entirely reworked them to fit their old lore and what they thought would be compelling additions grown from that. The army has armors and weaponry from a wide range of time periods because accuracy is a secondary goal, behind authentically lionizing the cultures in question (same thing with new Kislev for the record). The fact that characters are from the ground up designed as references to highly specific events is par for the course in warhammer.

    The idea that lightning, rain, winds, or clouds are missing from Miao Ying relies on the presupposition that not having them represented in more than animations and a connection between water and the preexisting links of water to the lore of life are insufficient for a character called the "Storm Dragon" which isn't an objective standard. I'd personally like to see a lightning breath attack but that's not because it's necessary to properly theme the character it's because my cultural background has me link breath attacks with dragons which comes from the media I'm exposed to (Thanks D&D!).

    It's clearly not just about making a character a crutch here and you have to be intentionally obtuse to draw that conclusion.
    Well it is a crutch when she is literally the only unit in the entire faction that can heal. Mind you this is already an extremely play safe faction that encourages turling on top of being able to use magic unlike dwarfs and now CA throws a dedicated healer that can also fight better than most LLs. I'm not even being objective here. This is a fact.
    Yes some subfactions are easier than other subfactions. Water is also wet. This has exactly nothing to do with the lore justifications used by GW which are a fairly complex set of world building ideas. This isn't something you produce to justify gameplay, it's not post hoc. The existence of powerful characters in warhammer is perfectly natural and there are many powerful characters who have no access to healing.

    The fact that Cathay has a powerful legendary lord does not mean the character was developed from the ground up to be powerful in a video game. You can dislike her, or worry she'll be a difficult to balance character in multiplayer (personally considering the shift to percentile heals and the new counters to healing being added I'm more concerned the dragon siblings will be too expensive to warrant bringing in multiplayer compared to the dragon blooded sorcerers) but those concerns do not imply that the character was made thoughtlessly or is thematically inappropriate by any objective measure.
  • SaurianDruid#4682SaurianDruid#4682 Registered Users Posts: 1,724
    This bothers me a lot too. If they were going for "typhoon" rather than "lightning" theme with her storms epiphet they really shouldn't have designed her to look like the sister of Raiden from Mortal Kombat.

    While I appreciate the use of Wuxing in her design I feel it really demanded new spells be made. Wuxing simply doesn't align with the Winds of Magic as written in Warhammer, and this is going to be a big issue going forward when they introduce more of her siblings.

    If the Jade Wind is meant to be the "Wind of Water" in Cathay (even though her "water" spells are called Earthblood and Regrowth, distinctly "Wood" elemental abilities as defined by Wuxing) then what lore are they going to give her sister Yin-Yin? You know, the Sea Dragon who dwells in the east and represents the Azure Dragon and the element of Wood.

    Wood is MUCH more appropriate to be represented by the Jade Wind seeing as it is about growth, plants, and healing. But having two dragon sisters that use the some lore of magic would be redundant and boring.

    What about Yuan Bo, her other brother? The Jade Dragon who is filling in for the Yellow Dragon and is represented by the Earth element. There is no Lore of Stone. Earth in Wuxing would be better represented by.... Again the Jade Wind. Spells like Earthblood and Flesh to Stone are obviously earth themed spells.

    So that'd bring us to three of the five dragon siblings wielding the Jade Wind.

    Miao really would have made more thematic sense with Azyr. Even going by Wuxing. Water embodies intelligence and wisdom and Azyr is generally the lore of astronomers and deep thinkers. More than that Azyr is also associated with rain. All things that come from the heavens are covered under the Wind of Heavens.

    Rain and storms are an Azyr thing. That's why half the spells revolve around manipulating the wind and weather, not just shooting people with lightning or calling down comets.

    The water association from Ghyran has more to do with water that comes from the earth. Rivers, lakes, geysers, ponds, etc. Ghyran has very little to do with the concept of storms. Water falling from the sky is an Azyr thing, not Ghyran.
  • T_MACCABBEET_MACCABBEE Registered Users Posts: 700

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
    Except that the GW analogy is already extremely reaching here because as mentioned in the chinese five phases, water is less so associated with rejuvenation and life and more to do with academics, cunning, and strategy. Considering that the cathayans already perceive lore of heavens as the lore of stone, considering that a lot of asian creation myths involve the soil and rock that formed the earth to have come from the heavens, this makes the parallels between the wind of ghyran and actual chinese applications even much farther apart.

    Also, are the detractors to this idea deaf or stubborn? It's not just lightning that's missing from Miao Ying's arsenal. What about her powers to control the rain, the winds and the clouds? You know, actual factors that used to decide the outcome of major chinese battles in the past, like the eastern winds blowing the flames westward that caused the burning of Cao Cao's fleet at the battle of Chibi, or the rain that foiled Zhuge Liang's attempted fire attack at Sima Yi's camp during one of his many failed northern expeditions against Wei?

    At this point, I'll just go back to my original argument that CA decided this because it would make Miao Ying a crutch character for being the only unit in the entirety of cathay that has heals.
    The issue here as alluded to above is the assumption of depth your applying to GW's cultural references which, while generally show an interest in the cultures they draw from, are ultimately quite shallow and lean into original world building ideas and rule of cool. Hence why Bretonnia has armor pieces from disparate time periods, Kislev originally had a secret police more reasonably associated with Soviet Russia than the historically appropriate cultures, or the empire being clearly an expy of the Holy Roman Empire that mixes different cultures and time periods with such reckless abandon that armies and weaponry of the early modern history are right next to things taken from the black death centuries earlier.

    GW has never been consistent or particularly accurate in their historical references so it's weird to try and judge Cathay by that standard. The idea of the five elements and the four symbols were noted by GW who then entirely reworked them to fit their old lore and what they thought would be compelling additions grown from that. The army has armors and weaponry from a wide range of time periods because accuracy is a secondary goal, behind authentically lionizing the cultures in question (same thing with new Kislev for the record). The fact that characters are from the ground up designed as references to highly specific events is par for the course in warhammer.

    The idea that lightning, rain, winds, or clouds are missing from Miao Ying relies on the presupposition that not having them represented in more than animations and a connection between water and the preexisting links of water to the lore of life are insufficient for a character called the "Storm Dragon" which isn't an objective standard. I'd personally like to see a lightning breath attack but that's not because it's necessary to properly theme the character it's because my cultural background has me link breath attacks with dragons which comes from the media I'm exposed to (Thanks D&D!).

    It's clearly not just about making a character a crutch here and you have to be intentionally obtuse to draw that conclusion.
    Well it is a crutch when she is literally the only unit in the entire faction that can heal. Mind you this is already an extremely play safe faction that encourages turling on top of being able to use magic unlike dwarfs and now CA throws a dedicated healer that can also fight better than most LLs. I'm not even being objective here. This is a fact.
    Yes some subfactions are easier than other subfactions. Water is also wet. This has exactly nothing to do with the lore justifications used by GW which are a fairly complex set of world building ideas. This isn't something you produce to justify gameplay, it's not post hoc. The existence of powerful characters in warhammer is perfectly natural and there are many powerful characters who have no access to healing.

    The fact that Cathay has a powerful legendary lord does not mean the character was developed from the ground up to be powerful in a video game. You can dislike her, or worry she'll be a difficult to balance character in multiplayer (personally considering the shift to percentile heals and the new counters to healing being added I'm more concerned the dragon siblings will be too expensive to warrant bringing in multiplayer compared to the dragon blooded sorcerers) but those concerns do not imply that the character was made thoughtlessly or is thematically inappropriate by any objective measure.
    Except that it wasn't GW who mandated that Miao Ying have lore of life. This was all on CA, the same CA that arbritraly gave other LLs weird spell selections in the past. No this has nothing to do with lore, it's really a gameplay decision. They knew Miao Ying is one of the most popular characters in WH3 and again as mentioned, they're making her even more favorable by giving her healing options.
  • 6nieve66nieve6 Registered Users Posts: 557
    edited November 2021
    Meanwhile, "Wu xing war compass" is related with heavens, controlled by a heavens caster and... throws lighting storms!

    Yeah, totally unexpected.

    It's gameplay and build design. Like Gelt being the only metal wizard in a metal wizard faction, or Teclis solving his weakness by riding a phoenix. A healing dragon is just cool.
    Post edited by 6nieve6 on
  • T_MACCABBEET_MACCABBEE Registered Users Posts: 700

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
    Except that the GW analogy is already extremely reaching here because as mentioned in the chinese five phases, water is less so associated with rejuvenation and life and more to do with academics, cunning, and strategy. Considering that the cathayans already perceive lore of heavens as the lore of stone, considering that a lot of asian creation myths involve the soil and rock that formed the earth to have come from the heavens, this makes the parallels between the wind of ghyran and actual chinese applications even much farther apart.

    Also, are the detractors to this idea deaf or stubborn? It's not just lightning that's missing from Miao Ying's arsenal. What about her powers to control the rain, the winds and the clouds? You know, actual factors that used to decide the outcome of major chinese battles in the past, like the eastern winds blowing the flames westward that caused the burning of Cao Cao's fleet at the battle of Chibi, or the rain that foiled Zhuge Liang's attempted fire attack at Sima Yi's camp during one of his many failed northern expeditions against Wei?
  • Maedrethnir#1968Maedrethnir#1968 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 17,205
    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Storm = lightning = Lore of Heavens:


  • 6nieve66nieve6 Registered Users Posts: 557
    edited November 2021
    Easiest implementation was an armour piercing breath attack, a couple of bound spells or lighting skills,and being the great heavens caster in a nation famous for their heavens casters.

    All the skills are currently in game, zero effort, loreful, cool.

    They could have gone with the lore of stones things, and instead of just using heavens they could have tailored their spells. Weird but possible, there are already stone themed spells and skills in game. Zero effort, loreful, cool.

    But...giving her and only her healing magic...is Peclis 2.0 while laughing at players.

    The Iron Dragon isnt doing "air magic" because Metal is related with lungs in chinese thinking. It's doing metal
    Post edited by 6nieve6 on
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,998

    OdTengri said:

    @MiniaAr after doing some reading about Wuxing, their concept of "water" has absolutely nothing in common with Ghyran. So if they are basing her off of the Wuxing system the lore of life is entirely out of character, and all the Lightning crackling off of her body is inappropriate bad visual direction.

    "In Chinese philosophy, water (Chinese: 水; pinyin: shuǐ), is the low point of the matter, or the matter's dying or hiding stage."

    "It is associated with the Winter... ... cold weather, night...."

    "It is also associated with the moon, which was believed to cause the dew to fall at night."

    "The negative emotion associated with water is fear/anxiety, while the positive emotion is calmness."

    Maybe Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows or Ice Magic, but certainly not Lore of Life

    https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Water_(Wu_Xing)

    Mooncake said:

    I can't tell if people are too stupid to tell why CA gave her Lore of Life after having it explained multiple times, or they are so self-assured that storm=lightning=lore of heavens that no reason will get through to them. Really makes me glad CA is in charge of these decisions instead of random forum goers.

    Sure... they explained it and it doesn't grock with the previously established verisimilitude of the setting, it looks more like a cheap and lazy attempt to hand wave away a decision rooted in something other than good story telling. Almost as if they made a Buisness decision that a certain lore would sell better and than they came up with some post hoc rationalizing.

    So glad we have luminaries like you here Mooncake.
    You do know they're retrofitting Chinese mythology to their own unique world in the same way they pull from other mythologies right? Ghyran already is associated with water in warhammer so if you're trying to weld warhammer magic to elements of Chinese culture such as the use of the 5 element in Wu Xing it's a reasonable step to take.

    Death, Shadows, and Ice all have no previous association with water in warhammer so using any of those would be equally arbitrary and the centralness of the lore of heaven in previous lore makes it's use as the central element something of a natural outcome. Earth (into stone here) being directly associated with Yellow Dragon ties GW's hands a bit on what has to be the center and notably none of the 8 winds are particularly earth or stone themed, meaning the options are either retconning a new lore as central to Cathay or just leaning into the importance of celestial bodies in the heavens.

    I can understand if you personally don't like the themes GW have chosen here but acting like this is arbitrary or illogical because you personally have a strong association from the presence of lightning isn't reasonable, nor is accusing a studio of intentionally trying to produce an overpowered character to eventually sell models or something?

    I'm actually just stuck on the fact that this argument relies on the premise that making a character overpowered in a videogame was the driving source behind a complex bit of world building that involved a decent amount of exploration of Chinese culture, instead of the more reasonable assumption that GW just took elements of Chinese culture they thought would be engaging and tweaked them to fit the preexisting warhammer world. I feel like we might need to check our conspiratorial thinking here.
    Except that the GW analogy is already extremely reaching here because as mentioned in the chinese five phases, water is less so associated with rejuvenation and life and more to do with academics, cunning, and strategy. Considering that the cathayans already perceive lore of heavens as the lore of stone, considering that a lot of asian creation myths involve the soil and rock that formed the earth to have come from the heavens, this makes the parallels between the wind of ghyran and actual chinese applications even much farther apart.

    Also, are the detractors to this idea deaf or stubborn? It's not just lightning that's missing from Miao Ying's arsenal. What about her powers to control the rain, the winds and the clouds? You know, actual factors that used to decide the outcome of major chinese battles in the past, like the eastern winds blowing the flames westward that caused the burning of Cao Cao's fleet at the battle of Chibi, or the rain that foiled Zhuge Liang's attempted fire attack at Sima Yi's camp during one of his many failed northern expeditions against Wei?
    I made an earlier post pointing out that GW has never been particularly tied to real world cultures earlier, and that holding only Cathay to a standard based on how accurately it reflects real world culture or religious beliefs is a bizarre double standard to pull out only for Cathay. We wouldn't hold the Empire or Bretonnia up as an accurate representation of Christian beliefs at the time so I don't see how GW not making a one to one translation of Wu Xing has any relevance on the thematic consistency of their world building. They saw the 5 elements and 4 guardian beasts, thought "these are neat cultural elements we could adapt to our game world in broad strokes to reference neat elements of a culture" and they did that.

    Beyond that I know I specifically responded to this exact comment because I actually bothered to compare the time period of reference points previously rather than just use the much more apt comparison above so you literally just copy pasted a response I already offered a counter argument to as though that suddenly makes the point relevant or consistent again.

    So in the spirit of copying statements we already made I have this one for you...

    you have to be intentionally obtuse to draw that conclusion.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 1,998

    This bothers me a lot too. If they were going for "typhoon" rather than "lightning" theme with her storms epiphet they really shouldn't have designed her to look like the sister of Raiden from Mortal Kombat.

    While I appreciate the use of Wuxing in her design I feel it really demanded new spells be made. Wuxing simply doesn't align with the Winds of Magic as written in Warhammer, and this is going to be a big issue going forward when they introduce more of her siblings.

    If the Jade Wind is meant to be the "Wind of Water" in Cathay (even though her "water" spells are called Earthblood and Regrowth, distinctly "Wood" elemental abilities as defined by Wuxing) then what lore are they going to give her sister Yin-Yin? You know, the Sea Dragon who dwells in the east and represents the Azure Dragon and the element of Wood.

    Wood is MUCH more appropriate to be represented by the Jade Wind seeing as it is about growth, plants, and healing. But having two dragon sisters that use the some lore of magic would be redundant and boring.

    What about Yuan Bo, her other brother? The Jade Dragon who is filling in for the Yellow Dragon and is represented by the Earth element. There is no Lore of Stone. Earth in Wuxing would be better represented by.... Again the Jade Wind. Spells like Earthblood and Flesh to Stone are obviously earth themed spells.

    So that'd bring us to three of the five dragon siblings wielding the Jade Wind.

    Miao really would have made more thematic sense with Azyr. Even going by Wuxing. Water embodies intelligence and wisdom and Azyr is generally the lore of astronomers and deep thinkers. More than that Azyr is also associated with rain. All things that come from the heavens are covered under the Wind of Heavens.

    Rain and storms are an Azyr thing. That's why half the spells revolve around manipulating the wind and weather, not just shooting people with lightning or calling down comets.

    The water association from Ghyran has more to do with water that comes from the earth. Rivers, lakes, geysers, ponds, etc. Ghyran has very little to do with the concept of storms. Water falling from the sky is an Azyr thing, not Ghyran.

    So this is actually an interesting argument, but I still feel it's more readily explained by being particularly set on a single presentation. For one we know GW want the 8 basic winds (whether elemental or magical) to be the same and to have the same effects regardless of which culture is using them. The fact that another group has a different name for the wind doesn't change the nature of the wind itself, so a new lore or new spell icons to represent the same wind is unhelpful.

    Additionally the water connections in Ghyran are stronger than I feel you're giving them credit for. Even ignoring outside text that compare healing magic to rain or flowing water (both of which line up with storms) we can just read the text of lore of life spells and see a reasonable water theme. Earthblood is the most on the nose, given your plant reading is underpinned by the presence of water in the earth (blood being a liquid and the text referring to pulling wholesome energies from the soil lines up nicely with water), while regrowth just notes an invocation allowing the healing of injuries through "natural means". Even Flesh to Stone has no mention of plants, though it is equally silent on water. The idea that lore of life is deeply connected to plants particularly requires a pretty specific reading, one we aren't required to make.

    Notably calling Ghyran, or the wind of life the Jade Wind is a choice which pretty clearly is self-serving here given it's the source of basically the entirety of your issue with Yuan Bo. If you use another name the linkage to the Jade Dragon is immediately removed (and we know the other names are more technically accurate since they are either a technical term (Ghyran) or describe the features of the wind (Life) rather than simply highlight that the wind is the color green (which can be expressed in terms other than jade). The Earth element being synonymous with Stone is something I think most people can agree isn't a stretch, and the linkage of Stone to Celestial bodies, while a bit more novel, is sensical and was explicitly stated by Andy Hall. Once we're at celestial bodies we're to Azyr and Cathay's Astromancers are more known for hurling meteors than lightning in preexisting lore so leaning into comet of Casandora is reasonable. In this case he's the Jade Dragon through association with his Father as the direct liaison between the mortal empire and the floating city.

    Yin-Yin's connection from Beasts to Wood is a bit more interesting, though as noted above the idea that Life and Plants must be linked is questionable at best (though not an entirely unsupported reading). In this case it would be instructive to consider what perhaps led GW to making this linkage rather than going out of our way to reject it in favor our a bias we hold. The easiest explanation is the nature connection to my mind. Lore of Beasts has always been more focused towards the primal elements of being, allowing casters to transform or enhance allies features associated with more natural features or summon nature spirits to hound enemies. The fact that a culture could associate that more with forests and wood than with beasts isn't a hard reading. Spells such as Amber Spear and Curse of Anraheir make no mention of beasts at all, and spells like Wyssan's Wildform and Pann's Impenetrable Pelt could be interpreted as more general references to enhancing humans by bringing them closer to nature rather than being specifically bestial (the lore of the wilds existence also supports this reasoning, with one being entirely focused on bestial nature and the other more generally being attuned to the natural world) but I will acknowledge I'm filling in gaps for those two. Flock of Doom is interesting because it has some very dumb literal meanings that allow for an association with wood but they're clearly an example of being overly literal so I'm going to exclude it.

    So the idea that we are immediately stuck with 3 dragon siblings matching up to the lore of life is only supported if you're intentionally ignoring evidence to the contrary and working to build a particular narrative. If instead of making assumptions and complaining that they do not match the text, we start from the text and fit our understanding to that we have a pretty clean understanding of how the Wu Xing reference was used in Cathay's lore and clear thematic linkage between the winds and the characters. Again you don't have to like the way GW did it, but they didn't just arbitrarily pick lores and call it a day.
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