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My Take on Thematic Army Compositions - Lizardmen

GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
edited July 2021 in General Discussion
We're back with our thematic army series, this time featuring the Lizardmen! I aim to use as much of the roster as possible while simultaneously adhering to the "theme" of each Legendary Lord, based first on their in-game bonuses and then on their background lore and what fits where in regards to roster utilization. In this case, I personally know very little about each LL's background apart from what you can glean in the game. In regards to variety and roster utilization, I realized early on that most of the LL's builds will be dino-heavy. Also, these are for single-player. As always, I welcome critiques and am willing to adjust my lists.

1) Lord Mazdamundi

Mazdamundi on Zlaaq
Skink Priest (either lore) on Ancient Stegadon*
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur
Star Chamber Guardians
Blessed Temple Guard x4
Blessed Kroxigors x2
Salamander Hunting Pack x2*
Ancient Salamander*
Blessed Bastiladon (Solar Engine) x4
The Thunderous One
Ancient Stegadon x2

*Edits made per MiniaAr's and Danielosama's input

Mazdamundi gets upkeep reduction for Temple Guard, and as their role appears to be guarding Slaan, it seemed appropriate to assign them as his infantry and give him the RoR. The Skink Priest is on an Ancient Stegadon to match as closely to Mazdamundi's mount as I can, and that's also the main reason why I put the other Ancient Stegadons in this list, too. There are so many dinosaur variations in the roster that you can pretty freely allocate them. The Scar-Veteran is the only anti-large unit in the army and is there primarily to fill that role, though of course as the overall faction leader, Mazdamundi would command such characters. He starts the Vortex campaign with a Bastiladon (Solar Engine), so I bumped that number up to four. Hexoatl itself has a solar theme and the unit fits well. Per MiniaAr's suggestion, I've also swapped the Feral Bastiladons for an Ancient Salamander and two Salamander Hunting Packs to capitalize on the fire theme. Mazdamundi's ME start provides a unit of Kroxigors, and I like that his build features all four castes of Lizardmen society; it's appropriate for the primary faction to be thusly representative.

2) Kroq-Gar

Kroq-Gar on Grymloq
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One
Skink Priest (Beasts) on Stegadon
Blessed Saurus Spears (Shields) x4*
Blessed Saurus Warriors (Shields) x3
Pok-Hopak Cohort
Blessed Cold One Spear Riders x2
Blessed Horned Ones x3
Geltblöm's Terror
Blessed Carnosaur x2*
The Shredder of Lustria

*Tweaked quantities slightly per MiniaAr's suggestion

Kroq-Gar receives upkeep reduction for Saurus and Cold Ones, and improves armor for dinosaurs. He's the closest to being a cavalry lord out of the Lizardmen roster, so he got the Cold Ones and Horned Ones, with the Scar-Veteran on a Cold One rather than a Carnosaur to support the cavalry. Because he has a Carnosaur mount, I gave Kroq-Gar the Carnosaur niche, and it's lovely now that it includes a RoR. The Skink Priest has the lore of beasts because there's only two lores to pick from and the army has a lot of dinos, and it's mounted on a Stegadon because I couldn't pick a Cold One and given that Kroq-Gar starts with a Feral Stegadon in both Vortex and ME, it was my best option. Finally, the Shredder of Lustria. The Lizardmen lists are more "doomstacky" than other races generally are, but I think that having multiple Dread Saurians in an army is unthematic and frankly just too much. I've put the three varieties in three different armies to break it up, but as head of the Lizardmen forces, Kroq gets the best one.

3) Tehenhauin

Tehenhauin on Ancient Stegadon (Engine of the Gods)
Skink Priest (Beasts) on Ancient Stegadon (Engine of the Gods)
Cohort of Sotek
Red Crested Skinks x4
Skink Cohort (Javelins) x4
The Umbral Tide
Salamander Hunting Pack x2
Ancient Salamander x2
Bastiladon (Ark of Sotek) x2
Ancient Stegadon (Engine of the Gods) x2

Tehenhauin provides physical resistance, armor, and melee attack/defence buffs to skinks, plus an armor bonus for Bastiladons (Ark of Sotek). He himself is a Red Crested Skink, so his infantry is a given, as well as any unit with "Sotek" associations, as the faction name is "Cult of Sotek". Tehenhauin himself is mounted on an Ancient Stegadon (Engine of the Gods), so he gets a couple of those plus a hero mounted on one. The Skink Priest has the lore of beasts because Tehenhauin shares this lore, but as is the case for most hybrid lords, I take the melee route with skill progression. The Skink Priest easily compensates for that loss. The salamanders are included due to being part of Tehenhauin's DLC package and the fact that they pairs nicely aesthetically with the Red Crested Skink vibe. Now, for the Skink Cohort (Javelins). We have three Skink LLs and three types of Skink ranged infantry. Tehenhauin gets the Cohort because they have the best melee stats of the three, and he buffs that aspect more than the other two Skink LL's. If the ranged units get into melee, they'll fare best in this army. The Javelin unit also doesn't benefit from the bulk of Oxyotl's buffs, so they certainly have more utility with Tehenhauin.

4) Tiqtaq'to

Tiqtaq'to (automatically mounted on Terradon)
Skink Priest (Heavens) on Terradon
Skink Chief on Terradon
Skink Cohort x4
Blessed Skink Skirmishers x3
Colossodon Hunters
Ripperdactyl Riders x2
Pahuax Sentinels
Blessed Terradon Riders (Fireleech Bolas) x3
Spirit of Tepok
Coatl x2

Tiqtaq'to has physical resistance, improved replenishment, and reduced upkeep for his flying units, solidly confirming him as the Lizardmen's air superiority force. He also gives a special attack to Terradons. With the newest update, he actually has a better buff for Coatls than Oxyotl, and they fit better with his flying theme anyway. Additionally, if Tiqtaq'to had a patron deity, it would be Tepok. The lore of heavens for the Skink Priest also ties in with the Coatls and flying in general. As for the Skink infantry: Tiqtaq'to is a regular Skink, so he has regular Skink units. The damage output of his army does not come from infantry. The Coatls can hide the Skink Cohorts and the Skirmishers are sneaky enough by themselves.

5) Nakai the Wanderer

Nakai
Skink Priest (Heavens) on Stegadon
Skink Chief on Stegadon
Blessed Chameleon Skinks x2*
Chameleon Stalkers x2*
Blessed Kroxigors x4
Amaxon Barbs
Razordon Hunting Pack x3
Cohort of Huatl
Sacred Kroxigors x3
Feral Dread Saurian

*A few people advised that I remove the Saurus from the army, so I've replaced them with sneaky Skinks.

Nakai's army has a very predatory feel to it, but there are considerations with it. The Spirit of the Jungle campaign is flawed. While this army is not cheap, it is cheaper than other compositions, and I've selected the cheapest mount options for the heroes that doesn't leave them isolated, and the cheapest of the admittedly expensive Dread Saurians. Nakai's army also has to be good enough to survive without reinforcements for much of the campaign. Kroxigors are the one thing that Nakai buffs, so their inclusion is without question. The Razordons were given to Nakai because he needed some ranged utility, and they are a bit better in melee than their salamander counterparts, too. The Dread Saurians came with Nakai, but as stated, he has the cheapest for practicality and also because it fits slightly better lorewise with his horde role.

6) Gor-Rok

Gor-Rok
Lord Kroak
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur
Blessed Temple Guard x2
Legion of Chaqua
Blessed Saurus Spears (Shields) x2
Blessed Saurus Warriors (Shields) x3
Cold One Spear Riders x3*
Bastiladon (Revivifaction Crystal) x3
Blessed Stegadon x2
Dread Saurian

*MiniaAr pointed out that Gor-Rok should have some Saurus cavalry, and I agree. He does provide upkeep reduction for Cold Ones.

Gor-Rok starts his campaign with Lord Kroak. With a Slaan in the army, a couple of units of Temple Guard are called for. Gor-Rok buffs Saurus and Temple Guard more than Kroq-Gar, so he received the RoR for the Saurus as well as more infantry in general. By having a majority of the army be infantry, the Bastiladon (Revivifaction Crystal) units are very useful to regenerate during the battle. The remaining dinosaur allotments really just help utilize the roster best.

7) Oxyotl

Oxyotl
Skink Oracle (automatically mounted on Troglodon)
Skink Chief on Terradon
Chameleon Stalkers x5
Blessed Chameleon Skinks x5
Terradon Riders x3
The Pale Death
Feral Troglodon x2
Coatl

Oxyotl actually starts the game with the rather expensive Skink Oracle, but even if he didn't, it would fit best with him both thematically and mechanically. The Chameleon units are an obvious inclusion given that Oxyotl himself is a Chameleon Skink. The Troglodons came with Oxyotl and he buffs them decently. I had some gaps to fill after all of that, so I finally used the regular Terradon Riders and paired them with a Skink Chief hero, using the Coatl as the centerpiece unit of Oxyotl's small air force. He does buff the Coatl a bit. His shtick is quick insertions/battles and a swift retreat, and all of the units in this army list are capable of that.

Lay it on me! What are your thoughts? With seven Legendary Lords, roster utilization was a heavy influencer with my builds. The only units that I didn't use were Feral Cold Ones (they suck), unshielded Saurus (no point), and unblessed unit variants, the last of which should hardly count. The idea is to build the army with the regular units and swap them out for the blessed variants when possible.

My next project is to take another look at the Dwarfs now that we have Thorek, and then it is on to the Beastmen!

Previous Lists:

Dwarfs https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288070/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-dwarfs
Vampires https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288074/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-vampire-counts
Greenskins https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288285/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-greenskins
Empire https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/289912/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-the-empire
Wood Elves https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288448/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-wood-elves
Norsca https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290569/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-norsca
WoC https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/292243/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-warriors-of-chaos-current
Bretonnia https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290009/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-bretonnia
Dark Elves https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293037/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-dark-elves
High Elves https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293966/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-high-elves
Post edited by GoldfishLord on

Comments

  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    Awesome. My favourite topics with my favourite race (I have played all those thematic armies).

    Not a lot to add, just some minor things:
    1) Mazdamundi:
    I like to play the Chotec=Fire theme a bit more.
    Instead of the 3 Feral Stegadon and 2 Ancient Stegadon, I would use a couple of Ancient Salamanders, 1 regulart Salamanders packs and 2 Fireleech Bolas. I like that you chose the Blessed Kroxygors for him instead of regular Krox.

    2) Kroq Gar:
    I like the cav theme. But maybe a bit too much Carnosaurs/Cold Ones for my taste. A couple of regular Stegadons (blessed or not) for range support would improve the army without hurting the theme: 2*regular Cold Ones 2*Horned Ones 2*Carnosaur 2*Stegadon would be my take on it.
    I like that you gave him the RoR Dread Saurian. Only an awesome tamer like Kroq Gar could hope to get him on his side (presumably).

    3) Tehenauin:
    I play with almost the same stack. I just remove the Skink Cohorts in favour of 2*Ripperdactyls (they match the colour scheme and came with the DLC as well). I also go ham on the Bastiladons ark of Sotek with 4 of them. 3 Salamanders (2+RoR) seems one too many for me and hard to micro. I prefer 1 Salamander + 1 Ancient Sally on each flank, the results are good.

    4) Tik Taq To:
    I will also use almost the same stack with him. Before S&F I used 3 Chameleon skinks but now that the Coatl are there, I might give Skink Skirmishers a chance.

    5) Nakai:
    I play the Horde theme by refusing to have any "organised" unit, so I phase out Sauruses pretty quickly (none by turn 20 at most). Instead I could recommend the Chameleon skinks (regular, or maybe now the Stalkers). In the lore, the Chameleons are Jungle dwellers and not Temple-cities ones. So I imagine that 2/3 Chameleon are watching Nakai move around in the jungle, following him, and then helping him during the battle with Nakai not even knowning their impact (for example by killing artillery/archers in the back). Now that I think about it, I might try it with Stalkers instead of regular Chameleons in my next Nakai playthrough.
    I also use the regular Dread Saurian, even though I agree that Feral match better but it's such a pain to increase your cap whereas you get one of each when the building is completed.
    A Coatl could also be a good idea and utility (Stalking Dread Saurians!) and would be justified by Tepok sending Nakai some help even if Nakai doesn't realise it fully.

    6) Gor-Rok:
    Not much to add. Instead of Feral Stegadons, I would give him a couple of Cold One cavalry (they are Sauruses after all). You need something to deal with those pesky archers.

    7) Oxyotl:
    I'm currently doing an Oxyotl campaign! Not using Terradons in his army but instead 8 Chameleons + 4 Stalkers (let's embrace the Chameleon race). Supplemented by 2 Coatl (including the RoR) and 2 Feral Troglodons (including the Pale Death). I also use a Skink Priest (Heavens) on Terradon.
    I find that Coatls work better in tandem supporting each others with spells and the combo Chain Lighting + Banishment does a lot of damage.
    My usual tactics go like this:
    - Field Battle: I let the ennemy army go in the direction of the Coatls+Skink characters and Troglodon. I skirmish a bit the ennemy characters with Oxyotl and the Troglodons. With the rest of the army, I slowly envelop the ennemy army on all sides with 2 main corps of 2*Stalkers + 4*Chameleons. Then I engage with the Coatls, unleash a fury of spells: Banishment, Chain Lightning, Comets, Flock of Doom. Then I retreat the character corps and advance the Chameleons corps who make short work of the remaining life of the enemy units. Pretty satisfying and feels ambushy enough for me.

    - Siege battles: I let the Coatls go ham on the walls (their animations work a bit better there), with the Troglodons "open" the door and the Oracle cast spells on the units below the walls. While I'm doing that, the rest of the army invades the castle unnoticed including Oxyotl. I go like this almost to the city center then engage in brutal street fight. This makes the units at the door go back to the city center to save it. But then Coatls and Troglodon enter as well and destroy the moving units.
  • DanielosamaDanielosama Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited July 2021
    Great post!
    A few comments/ideas if I may:

    1)Mazdamundi:
    I think a Skink Priest instead of Skink Chief would fit better as "second in command" to Mazdamundi.
    I'd ditch the Feral Stegadon too and take something like Engine of the Gods, Healer Bastiladon and/or Coatl.

    2)Krog-Gar , 3)Tehenauin and 6) Gor-Rok
    Agreed with everything except giving Krog-Gar Shredder of Lustria. I'd give it to Gor-Rok because Legion of Chaqua should be with Tehenauin since afaik, lore-wise, he led a migration out of the defiled city of Chaqua; so it would make sense for the "last" Saurus of Chaqua to be with him (and maybe a couple more Blessed Saurus Spears?).
    And so, to not leave Gor-Rok without RoR, I give him Shredder of Lustria (Gor-Rok is closer to Lustria than Krog-Gar after all lol).

    4) Tiktaq'to
    Are normal Terradon riders not worth it?
    Agreed with the rest otherwise.

    5)Nakai
    I would definitely take out the Saurus in favour of some Chameleon Skinks/Stalkers.
    I also don't bother with the Feral DS (even though I agree it fits better thematically speaking), and just give him 2 Dread Saurians (a little over the top, but they are from his DLC so whatever).

    7)Oxyotl
    Agreed with everything.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,679
    Lizardmen are interesting in so far, as that they have a lot of units in their roster that weren't a thing on the TT.

    The Ancient Salamander, Revivification Crystal, Chameleon Stalkers and Sacred Kroxigors (non-"feral" Dread Saurian variants too iirc, not quite sure there) are made up by CA to my knowledge and there never were Saurus w/o shields or Skink Cohorts w/o javelins (there were however Skink Cohorts with Kroxigors mixed in, sadly not a thing in TW). So it could be said that those options are kind of unloreful or at least don't have to be included.
    And then there's the (feral) stegadon in the room: Lizardmen don't really have ways to control feral dinosaurs (outside Dread Saurians!) at all. Troglodons and Cold Ones bond with with specialized subspecies of Skinks (Oracle) and Saurus (specifically born Cold One riders imitating the musk) whilst Bastilladons and Stegadons are controlled by their "riders" similar to war elephants. The "jewelry" on the Dread Saurian is actually a magical tool controling them (through the Slann?). Carnosaurs really were only character mounts (bonding too?).
    Ferals came in through Kadon's (yes that Kadon from the transformation) Binding Scrolls in the Storm of Magic supplement. It allowed anyone (!!!) to field feral versions of all the monsters in the game, thanks to these magical artifacts that only work during such a storm. They could be dispelled though, which made them really terrible options.

    During your reasonings you keep talking about 4 sentient castes but I'd argue there really are only 3. With the Slann be elevated high enough to only be lords (and Kroak), there are 2 distinct themes for units Saurus and Skinks (I guess Temple Guard and Dread Saurians are the exceptions). Kroxigors really are a tool for the Skinks, being almost braindamaged stupid and instinctively heeding the little guys every command.
    Actually they are meant to handle heavy tasks during construction work, having been turned into an improvised weapon by the smart little buggers. They are really ineffective without Skinks pointing them at the right direction around though. This is a recurring theme, as the Skinks are the civilian workforce, mostly fighting only as kind of a militia. Stegadons for example are actually used to clear roads through the jungle, kind of a primeval bulldozer (don't remember what Bastilladons are for).
    Anyway all the Dinosaurs and creatures outside Carnosaurs, (Dready Bois?,) and Cold Ones are handled by Skinks. Razordons and Salamanders had handler models, sadly not present in this game due to mixed units being not technically possible (real shame for the LM, they had several of those).
    Saurus (what's the correct plural here?) on the other hand are the dedicated millitary, specifically designed to exterminate everything not fitting into the great plan. Thus they rely more on their innate ability than the Skinks ingenuity, explaining the relative lack of Dinos. Those they use seem to be exclusively theropod carnivors: Cold Ones and Carnosaurs. Their very special caste ofc are the Temple Guard, who's task is to guard the Slann and star chambers (making your use of them very correct).

    Regarding LL, there's much less of an identification with specific units than in many other rosters.
    Mazdamundi is the oldest and probably also most influential of the living Slann. So with him basically everything flies. Obviously your emphasis on Temple Guard is perfect. He's also unusually proactive, maybe something can be done with that fact. I guess as a Slann He can cherry pick the best stuff from both Skinks and Saurus. He's the leader of Hexoatl and thus has authority over both militia and proper millitary (though the latter is commanded by Kroq-Gar, who ranks below Mazda).
    Kroq-Gar is the Saurus Commander of Hexoatl and got extensively discussed by @Valkaar in this thread you commentes on:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/294646/kroq-gar-thematic-army
    I think the result was that he's pretty agressive and kind of a cav guy, making your approach rather suitable.
    Tehenhauin leads the cult of Sotek, a purely Skink religion tolerated but not supported by the temple cities. I think beast priests are associated with it, not sure though. Anyway, Red Crested Skinks are pretty much the speciality of the cult and everything Skink works here. Anything Saurus or Dreadies are kind of a no go though, the Lustria expansion list didn't even have the big guys (was the first outing of the EotG though, iirc). Maybe a Coatl would fit? I have no idea about any association with Sotek but they are rather serpentine. The Arc you included is ofc a must have.
    Tiktaq-To is the air commander of Hexoatl (again), so lorewise he wouldn't actually lead armies but the air wing instead. So yeah, go for a close approximation of that. Maybe he should be used as a dedicated reinforcement commander, having only token ground forces (a Vanguard of Skink Skirmishers? Eyes on the Ground!). Imho everything that flies should be in his force.
    Nakai is an unusual case, as he's a (the only) Kroxigor with something up the noggin and his own agenda. I don't know if the lore actually mentions other Kroxigors following him. Their natural instinct actually is to follow Skinks around, not other members of their own species. Afaik he actually wanders around alone. Imho his status as "the spirit of the jungle" makes him the only lord suitable for feral dinos.
    Saurus are weird in his army, as he isn't loyal to the temple cities and those things tend to not do their own thing, unlike Skinks.
    Gor-Rok is the protector of Itza (not Hexoatl for once!). If there's a candidate for an infantry heavy Saurus army, it's him. Not more to say really.
    I think I can pretty much agree on Oxyotl, except the use of ferals ofc. The interesting thing about Oracles is that they actually have a psychic link with the Slann, much like the Skink priests. On the TT that meant explicit synergy with the toads. This meant not getting the full bang for the buck unless you had one in your army. Overall it means that the Oracle (and Priest) are also fitting for the mage priests, including Lord Mazdamundi. They aren't even casters btw. Their magic seems to be a representation of arcane conduit. In this case it means some far away Slann casts his magic through the Oracle.

    So that's my take on basic considerations for LM list building. Much like new world races however my exposure to their lore is somewhat limited. So take everything with a grain of salt. Hope it's useful.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,679
    edited July 2021
    Double post, please delete.
    Post edited by LennoxPoodle on
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    edited July 2021
    I would also like to add that in any Lizardmen campaign when an LL isn't available or confederation is impossible (those LM AI factions are stubborn!), then I switch the LL to a generic Lord but keep the theme:

    - Cult of Sotek theme: If no Tehenauin then Red Crested Skink Chief
    - Saurus, Cav and Big Dinos theme: If no Kroq Gar, then Saurus Old Blood on Carnosaur
    - Slann of Chotec + Fire theme: If no Mazdamundi, then Fire Slann
    - Spirit of the Jungle theme: If no Nakai, then Ancient Kroxigor (I sometimes even rename him to Nakai and the difference isn't that big).
    - Saurus Infantry Army theme: If no Gor-Rok and/or Kroak, then Slann with Life magic and Saurus Scar-Veteran protector.

    Oxyotl is new so I have not thought about it yet but I guess he's his own thing and can not really be replicated.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    edited July 2021

    Great post!
    A few comments/ideas if I may:

    1)Mazdamundi:
    I think a Skink Priest instead of Skink Chief would fit better as "second in command" to Mazdamundi.
    I'd ditch the Feral Stegadon too and take something like Engine of the Gods, Healer Bastiladon and/or Coatl.

    2)Krog-Gar , 3)Tehenauin and 6) Gor-Rok
    Agreed with everything except giving Krog-Gar Shredder of Lustria. I'd give it to Gor-Rok because Legion of Chaqua should be with Tehenauin since afaik, lore-wise, he led a migration out of the defiled city of Chaqua; so it would make sense for the "last" Saurus of Chaqua to be with him (and maybe a couple more Blessed Saurus Spears?).
    And so, to not leave Gor-Rok without RoR, I give him Shredder of Lustria (Gor-Rok is closer to Lustria than Krog-Gar after all lol).

    4) Tiktaq'to
    Are normal Terradon riders not worth it?
    Agreed with the rest otherwise.

    5)Nakai
    I would definitely take out the Saurus in favour of some Chameleon Skinks/Stalkers.
    I also don't bother with the Feral DS (even though I agree it fits better thematically speaking), and just give him 2 Dread Saurians (a little over the top, but they are from his DLC so whatever).

    7)Oxyotl
    Agreed with everything.

    Thank you for enjoying the post and for providing input! I have considered everything that you've said.

    1) The thing is, I don't like to have caster heroes take away from my LL's magic pool. I generally always try to have caster heroes with melee lords and melee heroes with caster lords. That said, on an Ancient Stegadon, the difference isn't much, and Mazdamundi has a huge pool anyway. So yes, I will make this change, but I really wish that the Lizardmen heroes had more than two lores to choose from, as this leads into my next note on Mazdamundi. I have removed the Feral Stegadons from his army as you said, but I've chosen to replace them with Salamanders per MiniaAr's suggestion to go with the sun/fire theme that Hexoatl has.

    2) What you said about Kroq-Gar, Tehenhauin, and Gor-Rok makes sense. Let's start with Tehenhauin: In my HE post, I talked about how I don't pull RoR's away from their core unit's allocated lord unless there's an unusually strong lore associated with that pairing, like the Mirror Guard for Sigvald in the WoC list. Gor-Rok has the heavy Saurus build, and so I gave him the Legion of Chaqua. Chaqua is closer to Itza than it is to the southern coast where the Cult of Sotek campaign start is, but that's not my main reasoning. Tehenhauin's bonuses are all skink-oriented, and as the first Skink Lord, he was designed to have a Saurus-free army. I do appreciate the lore insights, really, but for me, RoR's are mostly the "bonus" unit a LL gets for the core unit that they associate with over the other LL's of the faction, which is why Tiktaq'to gets the Coatl RoR instead of Oxyotl. With the Legion of Chaqua with Gor-Rok, he can keep his regular Dread Saurian, which he honestly only has because he's a defender of Lustria and he didn't otherwise have a centerpiece unit. I am going to keep the Shredder of Lustria with Kroq-Gar even though "Lustria" is in the name because Kroq is the apex beast tamer in the Lizardmen roster, and provides bonuses to dinosaurs for that reason. I feel as though he's the only one that really deserves the Shredder.

    3) For Tiktaq'to, it's not so much that normal Terradons aren't "worth it" as much as the Fireleech Bolas variety is better, and I knew that I'd have a gap in Oxyotl's list that would be filled well by their inclusion.

    4) You and another person suggested removing the Saurus from Nakai's list, and I will take your advice there. I'm swapping them for two units each of Chameleon Skinks and Stalkers. Despite the difficulty with acquiring the Feral Dread Saurian, I am keeping it. Each list is an "eventual build". They're not intended to have by turn 20 necessarily. I'd probably have a regular Saurian in his army and downgrade it to a Feral one when I could; it'd help save money, too.

    Thanks again for your productive contribution to this post!
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    MiniaAr said:

    Awesome. My favourite topics with my favourite race (I have played all those thematic armies).

    Not a lot to add, just some minor things:
    1) Mazdamundi:
    I like to play the Chotec=Fire theme a bit more.
    Instead of the 3 Feral Stegadon and 2 Ancient Stegadon, I would use a couple of Ancient Salamanders, 1 regulart Salamanders packs and 2 Fireleech Bolas. I like that you chose the Blessed Kroxygors for him instead of regular Krox.

    2) Kroq Gar:
    I like the cav theme. But maybe a bit too much Carnosaurs/Cold Ones for my taste. A couple of regular Stegadons (blessed or not) for range support would improve the army without hurting the theme: 2*regular Cold Ones 2*Horned Ones 2*Carnosaur 2*Stegadon would be my take on it.
    I like that you gave him the RoR Dread Saurian. Only an awesome tamer like Kroq Gar could hope to get him on his side (presumably).

    3) Tehenauin:
    I play with almost the same stack. I just remove the Skink Cohorts in favour of 2*Ripperdactyls (they match the colour scheme and came with the DLC as well). I also go ham on the Bastiladons ark of Sotek with 4 of them. 3 Salamanders (2+RoR) seems one too many for me and hard to micro. I prefer 1 Salamander + 1 Ancient Sally on each flank, the results are good.

    4) Tik Taq To:
    I will also use almost the same stack with him. Before S&F I used 3 Chameleon skinks but now that the Coatl are there, I might give Skink Skirmishers a chance.

    5) Nakai:
    I play the Horde theme by refusing to have any "organised" unit, so I phase out Sauruses pretty quickly (none by turn 20 at most). Instead I could recommend the Chameleon skinks (regular, or maybe now the Stalkers). In the lore, the Chameleons are Jungle dwellers and not Temple-cities ones. So I imagine that 2/3 Chameleon are watching Nakai move around in the jungle, following him, and then helping him during the battle with Nakai not even knowning their impact (for example by killing artillery/archers in the back). Now that I think about it, I might try it with Stalkers instead of regular Chameleons in my next Nakai playthrough.
    I also use the regular Dread Saurian, even though I agree that Feral match better but it's such a pain to increase your cap whereas you get one of each when the building is completed.
    A Coatl could also be a good idea and utility (Stalking Dread Saurians!) and would be justified by Tepok sending Nakai some help even if Nakai doesn't realise it fully.

    6) Gor-Rok:
    Not much to add. Instead of Feral Stegadons, I would give him a couple of Cold One cavalry (they are Sauruses after all). You need something to deal with those pesky archers.

    7) Oxyotl:
    I'm currently doing an Oxyotl campaign! Not using Terradons in his army but instead 8 Chameleons + 4 Stalkers (let's embrace the Chameleon race). Supplemented by 2 Coatl (including the RoR) and 2 Feral Troglodons (including the Pale Death). I also use a Skink Priest (Heavens) on Terradon.
    I find that Coatls work better in tandem supporting each others with spells and the combo Chain Lighting + Banishment does a lot of damage.
    My usual tactics go like this:
    - Field Battle: I let the ennemy army go in the direction of the Coatls+Skink characters and Troglodon. I skirmish a bit the ennemy characters with Oxyotl and the Troglodons. With the rest of the army, I slowly envelop the ennemy army on all sides with 2 main corps of 2*Stalkers + 4*Chameleons. Then I engage with the Coatls, unleash a fury of spells: Banishment, Chain Lightning, Comets, Flock of Doom. Then I retreat the character corps and advance the Chameleons corps who make short work of the remaining life of the enemy units. Pretty satisfying and feels ambushy enough for me.

    - Siege battles: I let the Coatls go ham on the walls (their animations work a bit better there), with the Troglodons "open" the door and the Oracle cast spells on the units below the walls. While I'm doing that, the rest of the army invades the castle unnoticed including Oxyotl. I go like this almost to the city center then engage in brutal street fight. This makes the units at the door go back to the city center to save it. But then Coatls and Troglodon enter as well and destroy the moving units.

    Thank you very much for your input! I've actually made a good bit of changes after reading your post, mostly with Mazdamundi, Nakai, and Gor-Rok. Credit where credit is due!
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458

    Lizardmen are interesting in so far, as that they have a lot of units in their roster that weren't a thing on the TT.

    The Ancient Salamander, Revivification Crystal, Chameleon Stalkers and Sacred Kroxigors (non-"feral" Dread Saurian variants too iirc, not quite sure there) are made up by CA to my knowledge and there never were Saurus w/o shields or Skink Cohorts w/o javelins (there were however Skink Cohorts with Kroxigors mixed in, sadly not a thing in TW). So it could be said that those options are kind of unloreful or at least don't have to be included.
    And then there's the (feral) stegadon in the room: Lizardmen don't really have ways to control feral dinosaurs (outside Dread Saurians!) at all. Troglodons and Cold Ones bond with with specialized subspecies of Skinks (Oracle) and Saurus (specifically born Cold One riders imitating the musk) whilst Bastilladons and Stegadons are controlled by their "riders" similar to war elephants. The "jewelry" on the Dread Saurian is actually a magical tool controling them (through the Slann?). Carnosaurs really were only character mounts (bonding too?).
    Ferals came in through Kadon's (yes that Kadon from the transformation) Binding Scrolls in the Storm of Magic supplement. It allowed anyone (!!!) to field feral versions of all the monsters in the game, thanks to these magical artifacts that only work during such a storm. They could be dispelled though, which made them really terrible options.

    During your reasonings you keep talking about 4 sentient castes but I'd argue there really are only 3. With the Slann be elevated high enough to only be lords (and Kroak), there are 2 distinct themes for units Saurus and Skinks (I guess Temple Guard and Dread Saurians are the exceptions). Kroxigors really are a tool for the Skinks, being almost braindamaged stupid and instinctively heeding the little guys every command.
    Actually they are meant to handle heavy tasks during construction work, having been turned into an improvised weapon by the smart little buggers. They are really ineffective without Skinks pointing them at the right direction around though. This is a recurring theme, as the Skinks are the civilian workforce, mostly fighting only as kind of a militia. Stegadons for example are actually used to clear roads through the jungle, kind of a primeval bulldozer (don't remember what Bastilladons are for).
    Anyway all the Dinosaurs and creatures outside Carnosaurs, (Dready Bois?,) and Cold Ones are handled by Skinks. Razordons and Salamanders had handler models, sadly not present in this game due to mixed units being not technically possible (real shame for the LM, they had several of those).
    Saurus (what's the correct plural here?) on the other hand are the dedicated millitary, specifically designed to exterminate everything not fitting into the great plan. Thus they rely more on their innate ability than the Skinks ingenuity, explaining the relative lack of Dinos. Those they use seem to be exclusively theropod carnivors: Cold Ones and Carnosaurs. Their very special caste ofc are the Temple Guard, who's task is to guard the Slann and star chambers (making your use of them very correct).

    Regarding LL, there's much less of an identification with specific units than in many other rosters.
    Mazdamundi is the oldest and probably also most influential of the living Slann. So with him basically everything flies. Obviously your emphasis on Temple Guard is perfect. He's also unusually proactive, maybe something can be done with that fact. I guess as a Slann He can cherry pick the best stuff from both Skinks and Saurus. He's the leader of Hexoatl and thus has authority over both militia and proper millitary (though the latter is commanded by Kroq-Gar, who ranks below Mazda).
    Kroq-Gar is the Saurus Commander of Hexoatl and got extensively discussed by @Valkaar in this thread you commentes on:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/294646/kroq-gar-thematic-army
    I think the result was that he's pretty agressive and kind of a cav guy, making your approach rather suitable.
    Tehenhauin leads the cult of Sotek, a purely Skink religion tolerated but not supported by the temple cities. I think beast priests are associated with it, not sure though. Anyway, Red Crested Skinks are pretty much the speciality of the cult and everything Skink works here. Anything Saurus or Dreadies are kind of a no go though, the Lustria expansion list didn't even have the big guys (was the first outing of the EotG though, iirc). Maybe a Coatl would fit? I have no idea about any association with Sotek but they are rather serpentine. The Arc you included is ofc a must have.
    Tiktaq-To is the air commander of Hexoatl (again), so lorewise he wouldn't actually lead armies but the air wing instead. So yeah, go for a close approximation of that. Maybe he should be used as a dedicated reinforcement commander, having only token ground forces (a Vanguard of Skink Skirmishers? Eyes on the Ground!). Imho everything that flies should be in his force.
    Nakai is an unusual case, as he's a (the only) Kroxigor with something up the noggin and his own agenda. I don't know if the lore actually mentions other Kroxigors following him. Their natural instinct actually is to follow Skinks around, not other members of their own species. Afaik he actually wanders around alone. Imho his status as "the spirit of the jungle" makes him the only lord suitable for feral dinos.
    Saurus are weird in his army, as he isn't loyal to the temple cities and those things tend to not do their own thing, unlike Skinks.
    Gor-Rok is the protector of Itza (not Hexoatl for once!). If there's a candidate for an infantry heavy Saurus army, it's him. Not more to say really.
    I think I can pretty much agree on Oxyotl, except the use of ferals ofc. The interesting thing about Oracles is that they actually have a psychic link with the Slann, much like the Skink priests. On the TT that meant explicit synergy with the toads. This meant not getting the full bang for the buck unless you had one in your army. Overall it means that the Oracle (and Priest) are also fitting for the mage priests, including Lord Mazdamundi. They aren't even casters btw. Their magic seems to be a representation of arcane conduit. In this case it means some far away Slann casts his magic through the Oracle.

    So that's my take on basic considerations for LM list building. Much like new world races however my exposure to their lore is somewhat limited. So take everything with a grain of salt. Hope it's useful.

    Sir, as always, you deliver a hoard of information that I am always eager to read. I really appreciate it. In this case, I am pleased that my builds pretty much get the seal of approval. I have removed most of the feral dinosaurs from the lists, admittedly some by happenstance, but regardless, this should make you a tad happier.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    MiniaAr said:

    I would also like to add that in any Lizardmen campaign when an LL isn't available or confederation is impossible (those LM AI factions are stubborn!), then I switch the LL to a generic Lord but keep the theme:

    - Cult of Sotek theme: If no Tehenauin then Red Crested Skink Chief
    - Saurus, Cav and Big Dinos theme: If no Kroq Gar, then Saurus Old Blood on Carnosaur
    - Slann of Chotec + Fire theme: If no Mazdamundi, then Fire Slann
    - Spirit of the Jungle theme: If no Nakai, then Ancient Kroxigor (I sometimes even rename him to Nakai and the difference isn't that big).
    - Saurus Infantry Army theme: If no Gor-Rok and/or Kroak, then Slann with Life magic and Saurus Scar-Veteran protector.

    Oxyotl is new so I have not thought about it yet but I guess he's his own thing and can not really be replicated.

    I do stuff like this as well! I don't talk about it much in my posts because they'd be way too long, but I definitely change up my generic lords and heroes and their army compositions depending on the LL that I'm playing as.
  • DockitDockit Registered Users Posts: 39
    This a great thread, makes me want to start a LM campaign!
  • peabodyestate#9505peabodyestate#9505 Registered Users Posts: 1,570
    edited July 2021
    As always love this - please may i request a beastmen one.

    Edit: Tried searching for my formal Beastmen thematic army request - stumbled across a search which showed all the previous ones.

    Welcome.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/search?adv=&search=request:+thematic&title=&author=&cat=all&subcats=1&tags=&discussion_discussion=1&comment_comment=1&discussion_idea=1&discussion_poll=1&within=1+day&date=

    Edit 2: Here is my request (not worth clicking just to prove i did) https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/3128079#Comment_3128079
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458

    As always love this - please may i request a beastmen one.

    Edit: Tried searching for my formal Beastmen thematic army request - stumbled across a search which showed all the previous ones.

    Welcome.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/search?adv=&search=request:+thematic&title=&author=&cat=all&subcats=1&tags=&discussion_discussion=1&comment_comment=1&discussion_idea=1&discussion_poll=1&within=1+day&date=

    Edit 2: Here is my request (not worth clicking just to prove i did) https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/3128079#Comment_3128079

    Haha I love that you dug that up! I was going to do the Beastmen next, actually. I just might do it tonight now that you've posted this.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458
    Dockit said:

    This a great thread, makes me want to start a LM campaign!

    Thank you, and same. Every time I make one of these lists, I find that I really want to start a campaign with 1-2 of the builds that I made. In TWW1, I wasn't very mindful of themes, and I missed out on a lot of potential flavor.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 458

    As always love this - please may i request a beastmen one.

    Edit: Tried searching for my formal Beastmen thematic army request - stumbled across a search which showed all the previous ones.

    Welcome.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/search?adv=&search=request:+thematic&title=&author=&cat=all&subcats=1&tags=&discussion_discussion=1&comment_comment=1&discussion_idea=1&discussion_poll=1&within=1+day&date=

    Edit 2: Here is my request (not worth clicking just to prove i did) https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/3128079#Comment_3128079

    Haha I love that you dug that up! I was going to do the Beastmen next, actually. I just might do it tonight now that you've posted this.
    Well, I made the post, but I accidentally made the majority of it italicized. When I changed that, I got the notice that the post won't appear until it's approved...so, probably tomorrow now.
  • Slayer_Yannir#8069Slayer_Yannir#8069 Registered Users Posts: 2,349
    I actually think you could justify giving Kroq-Gar a Skink Oracle. He's supposed to be sent to the Southlands by Mazdamundi but how does he stay in touch with the slann back in Lustria? Through a Skink Oracle.
    Formerly known as Yannir. Oaths have been taken.
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    Well actually who do you think a Skin Oracle would thematically fit:

    - Oxyotl starts with one

    - Tik Taq To could get a single one with Stalk and use it as the only land unit. After all, Troglodon are know for their ambushes and being mostly silent. I must say I prefer them as the anchor of his flying army instead of the Skink Chief on Stegadon (much less "ambushy"). I normally use a (blessed) Carnosaur and a couple of Chameleon Skinks in his army to get both the siege attacker bonus and the "boots on the ground" units. But a Skink Oracle could fulfill both role with a single army slot, the rest being full Flying units.

    - Tehenauin because the Skink Prophet need his Oracles?

    - Kroq Gar I don't see it. Yeah he would have lost contact with Mazdamundi but isn't Kroq Gar's mission actually to find a way to restore contact with the Hidden LM cities of the Southlands? Not through a unit but by actually meeting and confederating the other LM factions.

    - Nakai could get one as well. Skink Oracle/Troglodon are Jungle dwellers and not found in LM temple-cities. I tend to think that everything that is a beast/not a city dweller/a kroxigor is fair game for Nakai thematic stack. Maybe just Feral Troglodons would fit more (I usually have a couple of Carnosaur with him, but 1+1 could do the trick).

    - Gor-Rok and Mazdamundi, I don't see it. They are too much "in your face" generals to fit the sneaky theme of the Troglodon.
  • DanielosamaDanielosama Registered Users Posts: 4


    Thanks again for your productive contribution to this post!

    I am glad I could help, finding your Thematic armies posts has made me want to start new campaigns, so thank YOU :smile:
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    Ok I read @LennoxPoodle post again and I have been convinced by his point about Nakai: if there is any LM LL who should have feral Dino's, it's him as the true "spirit of the jungle"

    To do that, I'll cut on the number of heroes (previously I had a priest, a chief and a scar-vet as well) and only take a single Skink Oracle (who has heal so synergies well with a more Dino oriented armies). I'll also remove the chameleons, using them extensively in Oxyotl army as well as a little bit with Tehenhauin.

    I'll also take a single (feral) dread saurian, and range support will be 2 razordons and 2 feral Troglodons as well as the summons you get playing as the spirit of the jungle to deal with artillery (mainly cannons will be of concern with this build).

    This would look like this:
    Nakai
    Skink Oracle

    3 Blessed Kroxygors
    4 Sacred Kroxygors (Inc RoR)

    2 Razordons hunting pack(inc RoR)

    1 Feral Dread Saurian
    2 Feral Bastiladons
    2 Feral Stegadons
    2 Feral Teoglodons
    2 Blessed Carnosaurs

    What do you think? Basically it's a rite of primival glory army + kroxygors and a healer. Thinking about it Nakai and the Ancient Kroxygor lord are probably the most justified lord to lead rite of primival glory armies.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,679
    MiniaAr said:

    Ok I read @LennoxPoodle post again and I have been convinced by his point about Nakai: if there is any LM LL who should have feral Dino's, it's him as the true "spirit of the jungle"

    To do that, I'll cut on the number of heroes (previously I had a priest, a chief and a scar-vet as well) and only take a single Skink Oracle (who has heal so synergies well with a more Dino oriented armies). I'll also remove the chameleons, using them extensively in Oxyotl army as well as a little bit with Tehenhauin.

    I'll also take a single (feral) dread saurian, and range support will be 2 razordons and 2 feral Troglodons as well as the summons you get playing as the spirit of the jungle to deal with artillery (mainly cannons will be of concern with this build).

    This would look like this:
    Nakai
    Skink Oracle

    3 Blessed Kroxygors
    4 Sacred Kroxygors (Inc RoR)

    2 Razordons hunting pack(inc RoR)

    1 Feral Dread Saurian
    2 Feral Bastiladons
    2 Feral Stegadons
    2 Feral Teoglodons
    2 Blessed Carnosaurs

    What do you think? Basically it's a rite of primival glory army + kroxygors and a healer. Thinking about it Nakai and the Ancient Kroxygor lord are probably the most justified lord to lead rite of primival glory armies.

    That'll certainly play interestingly. What's cool about it, is how it feels like the jungle coming to the help for the defenders of the great plan.
    However, it looks kinda micro intensive.
  • MiniaAr#5798MiniaAr#5798 Registered Users Posts: 1,786
    Lizardmen being my favourite race and Cult of Sotek my favourite faction, I just started a new legendary/vh campaign as them.

    It's turn 35 and I have crossed the mountains to dispatch of Lokhir and save my Elven allies from the citadel of Dusk. Nothing too difficult there and Lokhir was properly sunk once again.

    But coming back, I made the small mistake of using force march to be closer to the Southern Sentinels settlement. This is when 2 full armies of Pestilens skavens ambushed me, with Skrolk leading once of those. Stormvermins, Plague Monks and Warpfire throwers were plenty.

    But no matter, my thematic stack was able to inflict a huge defeat on the skaven, even being outnumbered, ambushed and in forced march. This was:

    Tehenauin on Ancient Stegadon Engine of the Gods (so lvl 20). The Stellar canon was greatly effective.
    Skink Chief on Terradons -> Great to harass ennemy characters and also attack in the rear of the Warpfire thrower
    Skink Priest on foot -> recently recruited so not very useful, but he got plenty of training in the battle

    4 Red Crested Skinks, including the Cohort of Sotek RoR ->Due to the numerous skink buffs, they won their fights against the Stormvermins! Cohort of Sotek finished with 250 kills and only 20% loss
    4 Skink Cohorts with Javelins -> Javelins were great against the Plague Monks, and they held the line for the salamanders to shoot over them
    2 Blessed Chameleon Skinks -> got the blessed variants thanks to a quest. They also were able to reach the back of the skaven line and do good damage from there.


    4 Bastiladons Ark of Sotek -> The MVPs of the battle. One each on top of a big blob of 2-3 skaven units. Their abilities did wonders, and even more so if supplemented by Flock of Doom, Salamander fire and/or the Jungle swarm sacrifice ability
    2 Salamanders Hunting Packs -> Great to target the big blobs created by the Bastiladons. Also they had better range than the warpfire throwers so they destroyed them
    1 Terradon Riders RoR -> This one worked well in a team with the skink chief also on Terradon. I plan to replace them with Ripperdactyls when I get the ability to do so because Rippers are more indicated for the role I plan for my small air force (destroy ennemy Archers and Artillery from the back)

    I'm making this post to point out that even a thematic army like this can be fully functional even in such an unfavorable situation (ambushed by two skaven armies on forced march) . Yes, I benefited from the Cult of Sotek and Tehenhain being very much indicated for such a fight, with a lot of AOE damage: Bastiladons, Flock of Doom, Salamanders, Jungle swarm from the sacrifice pyramid and the Stellar cannon. But it was a very fun battle to win with a thematic army even when the auto-resolve said "decisive defeat".
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