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Total warhammer 3 Kislev and Tzeench roster

Lowca12Lowca12 Registered Users Posts: 29
edited November 2021 in General Discussion
Hello, I want to share the opinions that Kislev should get: mortars, cannons, war wagons with mortars and cannons. It is based on old lore and the fact tha those units fit in character of Kislev army. Kislev should not have as strong artillery as the Empire but more mobile and avoidant army. Kislev should slow down enemy, constantly hit and run and in the end strike hard with bears. Especially war wagons would be useful for that. The units would be just reskins, except of cannons, which should be smaller and have shorter range than the Empire's.
When it comes to Tzeench, his army should have chaos dragons, by lore, and again fitting in the army. It is flying unit with ranged attack. Would be the strongest melee unit in the army, but still weaker than Khorne 5 tier monsters. Not even reskin is necessary.
When it comes to warriors/chosen problem, there could be a role for them too. They could have lower armour than Khorne's, but be faster, have some bound spells, and a ranged, opening, magical attack similar to chameleon stalkers. The animation could be taken from Norscan marauder hunters with axes or javelins. So just before melee, warriors should open by throwing once or twice the ranged, magical, fire attack.
CA consider those ideas, please.
Post edited by BillyRuffian on

Comments

  • Lowca12Lowca12 Registered Users Posts: 29
    Hello, I want to share the opinions that Kislev should get: mortars, cannons, war wagons with mortars and cannons. It is based on old lore and the fact tha those units fit in character of Kislev army. Kislev should not have as strong artillery as the Empire but more mobile and avoidant army. Kislev should slow down enemy, constantly hit and run and in the end strike hard with bears. Especially war wagons would be useful for that. The units would be just reskins, except of cannons, which should be smaller and have shorter range than the Empire's.

    When it comes to Tzeench, his army should have chaos dragons, by lore, and again fitting in the army. It is flying unit with ranged attack. Would be the strongest melee unit in the army, but still weaker than Khorne 5 tier monsters. Not even reskin is necessary.
    When it comes to warriors/chosen problem, there could be a role for them too. They could have lower armour than Khorne's, but be faster, have some bound spells, and a ranged, opening, magical attack, similarly to chameleon stalkers. The animation could be taken from Norscan marauder hunters with axes or javelins. So just before going into melee, warriors should open fight by throwing once or twice the ranged, magical, fiery attack.
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 2,121
    edited November 2021
    There is no official old lore where Kislev had mortars, heavy cannons or war wagons with such artillery. (Claws of the Great Bear was unofficial and does not fit with later offficial content and it did not have war wagons.) Kislev only had War Wagons in the spin-off game Warmaster and those wagons were crewed by handgunners, not artillery.

    Adding reskinned War Wagons and artillery to Kislev would break the thematic and visual design of the race, the Empire War Wagon looks very out of place next to Kislev units. If you want Kislev to be "hit and run" (mobile and avoidant army) the suggested artillery and War Wagons armed with it would would significantly shift their playstyle to the point where there would be no need for hit and run. Just a defensive box as all other artillery factions.

    *Edited for clarity.*
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 4,733
    KN_Gars said:

    There is no official old lore where Kislev had mortars, heavy cannons or war wagons with such artillery. (Claws of the Great Bear was unofficial and does not fit with later offficial content and it did not have war wagons.) Kislev only had War Wagons in the spin-off game Warmaster and those wagons were crewed by handgunners, not artillery.

    Adding reskinned War Wagons and artillery to Kislev would break the thematic and visual design of the race, it would significantly shift their playstyle since there would be no need for hit and run with that level of artillery. Just a defensive box as all other artillery factions.

    Kislev Certainly is not a" hit and run faction "
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 2,121
    TeNoSkill said:

    KN_Gars said:

    There is no official old lore where Kislev had mortars, heavy cannons or war wagons with such artillery. (Claws of the Great Bear was unofficial and does not fit with later offficial content and it did not have war wagons.) Kislev only had War Wagons in the spin-off game Warmaster and those wagons were crewed by handgunners, not artillery.

    Adding reskinned War Wagons and artillery to Kislev would break the thematic and visual design of the race, it would significantly shift their playstyle since there would be no need for hit and run with that level of artillery. Just a defensive box as all other artillery factions.

    Kislev Certainly is not a" hit and run faction "
    That was what the OP wanted to achive if you look at his suggestion but I muddled things up by replying to two things in the same sentence.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,387
    Nah.

    Kislev has had its lore updated in its transition from a supplement to an armybook. So what was 'old lore' is far less relevant in terms of what justifies a new unit inclusion. Additionally, unless it is hybrid artillery, mass artillery in general very specifically does NOT fit the new Kislev gameplay style. Cathay is the defensive box/artillery faction of this particular game.

    Finally, Kislev has SO many other potential interesting avenues for roster expansion....that 'mass artillery' would be a rather plain, generic expansion. I would prefer if future DLC's leaned into actually colorful expansion of Kislev. Things like fleshing out the Orthodoxy with new religious zealot units or a fleshing out the 'Steppe Peoples' (whatever CA decides to call them) playstyle with hardy hybrid Horse Archer type units in a Cossack/Mongol-lite stye. Kislev could also use an expansion of their ice monster/spirit bestiary as well as dive into their Hag/witch/pagan elements of their 'pre-Orthodoxy' religions.

    ^Maybe....and not even enthusiastically....after ALL of that got touched upon on in DLC, then Kislev could get a 'generic Empire-reskin artillery expansion'. But it's like, near the bottom of the priority list.



    A similar thing with Tzeentch.

    Sure, Tzeentch does focus on ranged units and flyers, but absolutely NO to a Chaos Dragon. Tzeentch has enough recolors and reskins as it is.

    Should Tzeentch get more showpiece units and flying monsters? Yes! Absolutely!

    Should said showpiece unit be ANOTHER reskin that doesn't even fully fit Tzeentch's playstyle? No. Absolutely not.

    Tzeentch deserves his own unique showpiece model beyond Exalted Lords of Change. I am perfectly fine with a monster being made up to fit the role. It can even be a flying a monster. But definitely NOT a recolored dragon. Rather, it should be something that is not yet currently in the game.

    Tzeentch COULD use a Warrior/Chosen type infantry with a model model, squishy, and a flaming precursor attack. On that singular point, I agree. Some unique infantry to break up the monotony of 'Horrors + Game 1 recolors' would be welcome in the infantry department.
  • TrenchwarTrenchwar Registered Users Posts: 76
    Cannons are mentionned in lore. Erengrad is defended by a wall of cannons. Kislev's cannon are suposedly made of the brass of magical bells of their cities but are less reliable and more "breakable" than the empire ones.

    Mortars aren't mentionned.

    There is the urugan cannon? I think is somewhat a cheaper organ gun with a smaller calibre.


    Basically: kislevs cannon are magical but likely less AP / range / munition.

    They could be made mobile by being trackted by horses (no more bears please).

    They could come with a DLC either magic based or religion based (because its made of church bells)
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 2,121
    Trenchwar said:

    Cannons are mentionned in lore. Erengrad is defended by a wall of cannons. Kislev's cannon are suposedly made of the brass of magical bells of their cities but are less reliable and more "breakable" than the empire ones.

    Mortars aren't mentionned.

    There is the urugan cannon? I think is somewhat a cheaper organ gun with a smaller calibre.


    Basically: kislevs cannon are magical but likely less AP / range / munition.

    They could be made mobile by being trackted by horses (no more bears please).

    They could come with a DLC either magic based or religion based (because its made of church bells)

    The Uragan cannon is from the non-canon "Claws of the Great Bear".

    The artillery that Kislev possessed is perfectly normal artillery, much of it is straight up imported from Nuln. But it is fortress artillery, not field artillery. Erengrad does manufacture artillery but the bulk of it is sold for naval use, Realm of the Ice Queen notes that only a few mercenary companies use Erengrad cannon on land. In the old lore Kislev simply did not have the organisation to mantain a force of field artillery, mantaining mobile artillery required complex skills, advanced logistics and a lot money. All things which Kislev lacked.

    Of course all of the above is old lore which GW probably have retconned like so many other Kislev things so an Erengrad DLC/FLC may well bring field artillery. But like Little Grom such Kislev artillery will be based on the new TOW lore rather than being justfied by older lore.
  • DemonRazielDemonRaziel Registered Users Posts: 174
    Trenchwar said:

    Cannons are mentionned in lore. Erengrad is defended by a wall of cannons. Kislev's cannon are suposedly made of the brass of magical bells of their cities but are less reliable and more "breakable" than the empire ones.

    Mortars aren't mentionned.

    There is the urugan cannon? I think is somewhat a cheaper organ gun with a smaller calibre.


    Basically: kislevs cannon are magical but likely less AP / range / munition.

    They could be made mobile by being trackted by horses (no more bears please).

    They could come with a DLC either magic based or religion based (because its made of church bells)

    Alas... Artillery has been mostly retconned from KIslev's roster.

    Kislev is not known for massed artillery. In fact, at many points throughout its history, the Boyars and Druzhina have been expressly forbidden from maintaining their own. In the reign of Tzar Alexis a dozen new cannons were commissioned, under the orders that “their roar would drown out the hordes of Chaos like the thunder of gods”. The Thunderers, as they were known, made a great difference in the battles that eventually saw the legions of Chaos thrown back into the northern wastes. By the time the fighting was over, most of the twelve Thunderers were lost… but a precious few remain.

    One of the multiple things I dislike about the "ugly, weirdly implemented and terribly named Little Grom".
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,048
    I do agree that Tzeentch should have Chaos Dragons, but they shouldn't be just retextures. Maybe, just maybe GW will release new miniatures for them and TW:WH is going benefit from them.
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • MattockMattock Registered Users Posts: 1,065
    I agree about chaos dragons, they're spawned from a dragon that ate and was mutated by a lord of change, and they look like tzeentchian dragons, one head even has a small beak:


    They wouldn't need any work at all. The tzeentchian aspects are way less apparent in the lore and artwork but these guys look great and would be a great addition with a lord of tzeentch.
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