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Tired of playing "Black Bears: Total War"

ShinyShiny MemberPosts: 56Registered Users
Fall of the Samurai is the worst balanced game I've ever played. In every game there are nearly only black bears, cause it's easy to win with them. In my opinion they are far too strong for their skills. I quit.

btw: Please do not come with commens like " Ohh yeaaahh they are fine.... you should use them , too.", because maybe there are more guys like me, who want to bring a mixed army.
Post edited by Shiny on
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Comments

  • AnjinSanAnjinSan Senior Member Posts: 472Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Then it will change to white bears and are you going to complain about them next? What about when they nerf white bears and everyone switches to vanilla imperial/shogunate line infantry are we going to nerf them down next? Get the idea?
  • ShinyShiny Member Posts: 56Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I can't agree to that. You should consider that vanilla elite infantry is much more expensive and by that you get less men on the field. Because of that you can get beaten very easy by a lot of cheap units. And in addition to that, elite infantry with 150 range is much more expensive. At the moment you can get 150 range black bears at around 1300-1350 koku, so they are even much better than sharpshooters...So you can tell me what you want, balance is broken.
  • The BumThe Bum Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Are you using Shogunate line infantry? If so, that's why you lose. Shogunate line infantry are statistically inferior to Imperial line infantry.
    "They are there, so I must kill them" - Lord Berwick
    Non sibi sed patriae
  • ShinyShiny Member Posts: 56Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I'm trying to mix them up. But I'm more a Shogunate fan, I'm in a shogunate clan. They aren't as bad as they look, I have chances against everything except black bear spam. They are not counterable. ( with my builds)
  • Mr.CrackMr.Crack Member Posts: 44Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    The Bum wrote: »
    Are you using Shogunate line infantry? If so, that's why you lose. Shogunate line infantry are statistically inferior to Imperial line infantry.
    Shogunate and Imperial line infantry have both exactly the same stats and equipment.
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited April 2012
    A core of lightly upgraded elite infantry combined with the ubiquitous bears provides a pretty substantial infantry force.

    The argument that a unit needs to be nerfed because lots of people use it is really rather invalid...these are line infantry we are talking about, which are intended to be used by lots of people. Just because we see a lot of something simply means it is popular, not that it is overpowered.
    Yes, it's me.

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  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Ohh yeaaahh they are fine.... you should use them, too.
  • wsx1986wsx1986 Senior Member Posts: 182Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I find that the imperial infantry which cost 960 koku (not the imperial guard infantry which are elite units) are much better than any bear unit.
    I'm not entirely sure, but one of the reason could be because they might be using different guns (enfield pattern used by imperial infantry vs some unconfirmed european made gun used by black bears). I have a couple of black bears upgraded with reload skill (65 reload, 50 accuracy), but my vanilla imperial infantry (55 reload, 45 accuracy) appear to do more damage.
    I have come to this conclusion because I always check my kill/death stats after each battle, and my vetted imperial infantry (cost 1010 with sup fire upgrade only) make 30-50 more kills than my vetted black bears (cost 1000 with sup fire, reload upgrade).
  • MoscMosc Member Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Problem is black/white bears are too cost effective when you start adding in upgrades. As a shogunate player, your options are limited to Azure dragon force or shogunate infantry if you want to upgrade linemen with increase range. So between 760 - 960 funds a shogunate player has nothing in terms of having a linemen unit to upgrade.

    This is where i would of liked to see Shinsengumi Police Force fill that role for a shogunate player. But currently they aren't worth the asking price.
  • wsx1986wsx1986 Senior Member Posts: 182Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    If you want to upgrade range, I'd actually spend my money on Azure dragons. A range increased AD would cost 90 koku less than a black bear, and in my opinion with all the upgrades, the difference in reload and accuracy isn't going to make too much of a difference especially if you put in one or two of the foreign marine units.
    So a fully upgraded AD with range increase is going to potentially cost 1340 koku (or even as less as 1280 depending on the upgrades you get). For as little as around 8000~8500 koku, you can get 5 ADs with 150 range plus one foreign marine. That's a saving of 450 or more koku from what you would have spent from upgrading BBs.
    In my view, the whole point of getting range upgrade is not only to shoot at your enemy first, but also to draw them closer to your shorter ranged units. So I personally wouldn't invest too much into giving all my line infantry increased range. Rather, I would put one unit with increased range at each point of my formation, so the enemy (who hopefully won't have more increased range units than me) will have to walk into the range of my less upgraded units. But that's just my view on battlefield tactics, and you guys might have a different view altogether :)
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Posts: 4,606Moderators
    edited April 2012
    The range upgrade is fine, until you are faced with someone who uses the ground or manuevre to defeat it.
    Yes, it's me.

    Gungho |Takeda| Yamagato Masakage

    You have spoken with clarity of thought and rhetorical flourish...you have surely earned the favour of the mods.

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  • BeauchampBeauchamp Senior Member Posts: 145Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    i yet have to see a battle where it will pay off to take a hyper-vetted unit :)
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    better to not have a vetting system unless it was like RTW or NTW
    what is the point of bring imp inf and sho inf if their ending cost far more, and a person bring lvl 9 vets of imp/ sho inf can be out numbered by a person using bear units lvl 9 by 2 more?
    what is the point of bringing anything else?
    what is the point of vetting units at all?
    what is the point of actually playing any other unit other then bears since the game is saying to me, you don't bring bears, you will get out numbered and get screwed over, that is awesome! what a game!
    can't wait to vet bears! may as well delete all my vets and make my veteran slots all bears and cav + arty since thats what the game, if i wanted a loan sword subsitute i would spam them, but if i want a balanced game i would get on CA's **** about this not sit and defend a unit that costs far to cheap and is "same" as 960 unit, and may aswell be the same as a guard unit while their at it.
    FOTS game of balance to most, FOTS the game of Bears and Arty to me
    Fear God, Honor King
  • IncubusDragonIncubusDragon Senior Member Posts: 962Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    thescream.th.jpg

    :eek:
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  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    The point is diversity.

    Black Bears are still too cost effective. So they outmatch everything else on 14.000 koku battles.

    If the ceiling is raised to 20.000 as Standart for 10 Star vs 10 Star matches things would look pretty diffrent.

    There is much to do on the balance section.

    Its not only the Black Bears, its the missle infantry in General, that will make every Army composition look quite equal on Land battles. This Clone armys are so succesfull cause the Developer CA designet them to be most powerful without a counter.

    The rock paper scissors principle is broken now.
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Yoritomo wrote: »
    The point is diversity.

    Black Bears are still too cost effective. So they outmatch everything else on 14.000 koku battles.

    If the ceiling is raised to 20.000 as Standart for 10 Star vs 10 Star matches things would look pretty diffrent.

    There is much to do on the balance section.

    Its not only the Black Bears, its the missle infantry in General, that will make every Army composition look quite equal on Land battles. This Clone armys are so succesfull cause the Developer CA designet them to be most powerful without a counter.

    The rock paper scissors principle is broken now.

    CA the king of Balance
    Fear God, Honor King
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Well remember back last autunum as the matchlocks havent got magic bullets. The only shoot if line of sight shows no friendly units was turned off.
    That will turn the gameplay completely.

    The no brain use of missle inf could be history.
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    yes friendly fire would change battles around a lot more, and no laser targeting, i have seen bullets slip right through enemy engaged in the lines and go hit my men
    guns require no skill of thought or strategy
    Fear God, Honor King
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Shiny wrote: »
    Fall of the Samurai is the worst balanced game I've ever played. In every game there are nearly only black bears, cause it's easy to win with them. In my opinion they are far too strong for their skills. I quit.

    btw: Please do not come with commens like " Ohh yeaaahh they are fine.... you should use them , too.", because maybe there are more guys like me, who want to bring a mixed army.
    I dissagree FOTS is one of the best balanced TW games on release, and when you say nearly only black bears do you mean 19 units? Look at the responses to the other Black bear thread people seem to think they're balanced over all.
  • DevlinXIIIDevlinXIII Member Posts: 51Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Bear spams are really something, except when that general meets a bushido army, they are vanished in secs. Now I have no doubts FOTS is very unbalanced/broken right now but ppl abusing Bears won't last much longer when more ppl start using more Bushido armies. Give it time I say, also for future patches (that don't seem to be coming any time sooner >.<).
  • The BumThe Bum Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Mr.Crack wrote: »
    Shogunate and Imperial line infantry have both exactly the same stats and equipment.

    I didn't mean the elite troops. I meant Red bear vs. White tiger force, White bear vs. Azure dragon force, ect.
    "They are there, so I must kill them" - Lord Berwick
    Non sibi sed patriae
  • Sparticus_rebornSparticus_reborn Member Posts: 77Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    AnjinSan wrote: »
    Then it will change to white bears and are you going to complain about them next? What about when they nerf white bears and everyone switches to vanilla imperial/shogunate line infantry are we going to nerf them down next? Get the idea?

    I haven't played MP on FoTS yet, but this kind of balancing counter-argument that I've seen in countless games is BS. The effective argument your making is that "Balancing the game is too hard so we just shouldn't try". You're right about saying people probably will complain, but with my experiences across multiplayer arenas in general the complaints will be less than before and will continue to decrease until its a small minority who will complain about anything for any reason.

    So this isn't an argument for or against the particular balance in question, just a tangent argument in regards to balance in a larger sense.
    "These Barbarians lack the tactical refinement of our Legions" - Anonymous Roman General precluding an ambush.
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I dissagree FOTS is one of the best balanced TW games on release, and when you say nearly only black bears do you mean 19 units? Look at the responses to the other Black bear thread people seem to think they're balanced over all.
    sigh defending bear builds
    those people who most likely are defending bears, use bears too,
    you don't find people not defending their builds, instead i am more then sure that half of the people saying bears aren't Op use them
    cheap unit even when lvl 9 cheap why bring any other unit apart from bears, the game is forcing you to do it, and you know what , people follow it, and instead of saying no it's enough, they follow it like sheep and say
    BEARS AREN"T OP, they are ****, errrrrr nothing need to be done with them, errrr the thread name is correct
    it is what this game is, i find myself in a position where there is no need for thought in the game, nor predicting what the enemy has, it's the same thing
    BEARS, MORE BEARS, TIGERS MAYBE and ARTY WITH CAV or no CAV and have spears, that is the same
    so unless CA wants to pull something out, and stop having people saying woah this game is so balanced
    i pursue the issue till they are proper pricing non of this 850 for the same as a 960 unit
    Fear God, Honor King
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    DevlinXIII wrote: »
    Bear spams are really something, except when that general meets a bushido army, they are vanished in secs. Now I have no doubts FOTS is very unbalanced/broken right now but ppl abusing Bears won't last much longer when more ppl start using more Bushido armies. Give it time I say, also for future patches (that don't seem to be coming any time sooner >.<).
    then when bear spams are stopped the bear spammer will hop on and say weeeeeeeeeh cry cry, melee is to OP
    weeeh wehhh, their cost is to cheap make them 1000 a pop
    bushido gen destroys spams, i know that,
    Fear God, Honor King
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited April 2012
    eh? COMMANDO GEN, here. ive only used White tigers, Black Tortoises and Matchlock Kaichi. havent lost to Black bears, White Bears, or RED Bears recently. You must really be a ****py player if youve been losing to them and then make a thread to try and to propose a nerf. Purty low.
  • SecuterSecuter Senior Member Posts: 1,745Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    better to not have a vetting system unless it was like RTW or NTW
    what is the point of bring imp inf and sho inf if their ending cost far more, and a person bring lvl 9 vets of imp/ sho inf can be out numbered by a person using bear units lvl 9 by 2 more?
    what is the point of bringing anything else?
    what is the point of vetting units at all?
    what is the point of actually playing any other unit other then bears since the game is saying to me, you don't bring bears, you will get out numbered and get screwed over, that is awesome! what a game!
    can't wait to vet bears! may as well delete all my vets and make my veteran slots all bears and cav + arty since thats what the game, if i wanted a loan sword subsitute i would spam them, but if i want a balanced game i would get on CA's **** about this not sit and defend a unit that costs far to cheap and is "same" as 960 unit, and may aswell be the same as a guard unit while their at it.
    FOTS game of balance to most, FOTS the game of Bears and Arty to me

    What is the point of going back to an older system just to find the same problems there? if you vet the units they will also be more expensive there.
    Make a Medieval 3!
    More units.
    More interested in European history.
    Different cultures.
    More factions.
    Not that many gun powder troops, it's not a new Empire I want.
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    i'm bushido gen and still insulting people getting you nowhere kiddo
    and 80% of the time i normally win against most builds
    so you can keep on defending bears which have turned the game into nothing more then repetition, actually cod has better gameplay then what fots has right now, even balance wise a shooter is more balanced then this and strat games were always meant to be be balanced, this ain't balanced nor will it ever be since people want to defend their bear builds
    Fear God, Honor King
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Wow what a bug! Black bear reload gives +10 per upgrade, white and red bear just get +5 reload.
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • Sir IronlakeSir Ironlake Member Posts: 51Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I play as bushido general, although I also use line infantry, and have no particular trouble with BB. I do have some problem with the general effectivness of "spread yr line 1 man deep across half the map" which is **** (that it has very little bad effects and tripples your firepower) but BB itself is no harder to deal with then other line infantry. Which means, depends who uses it and how.

    p.s.
    I sometimes use BB, but more often not, I alos use SI, WB, sometimes foreign elite, sometimes the cheaper line inf.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Some people really have it out for BBs. They are slightly more cost effective for their price compared to other line infy, but game breaking? Nope. You may not believe me when I say this but "you don't need black bears to win".
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