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Did they intentionally make cav worse?

Mr_Finley7#4571Mr_Finley7#4571 Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 8,375
Apart from feeling squishier, mass seems greatly reduced, and it feels harder than ever to extract a unit from combat as contact between a single model with the enemy results in a unit abandoning the retreat and sprinting back in to the fight.

It’s annoying as ****.

Bug or feature?
«1

Comments

  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,239
    Cavalry seems to have reverted back to early Warhammer 2 status. You get impressive charges which send a lot of models flying but then the damage immunity given to knocked down models. Bad cavalry is one of the major things slowly but certainly killing my enjoyment of any Kislev campaign.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • ssssnake529#2202ssssnake529#2202 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 85
    Even on Normal battle difficulty, cavalry is bad.

    On higher difficulties, it's useless.

    Even flanking and rear charges do minimal damage.

  • ASyrianASyrian Registered Users Posts: 1,317

    Even on Normal battle difficulty, cavalry is bad.

    On higher difficulties, it's useless.

    Even flanking and rear charges do minimal damage.

    Sounds like a lie to me and totally diverse to my observations. Did you charge ogres with human cavalry then I may have an idea why it had no impact.
  • Nitros14#7973Nitros14#7973 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,641
    I'm having plenty of success with Chaos Knights of Tzeentch but they're less about the charge.
  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,285
    Why does it feel like the main fantasy team has completely ignored all the developments the DLC and Updates added that made the game better?
  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,850
    edited February 21
    Cathay cavalry is really bad, but my limited use of Kislev cav gives better results, and monstrous cav is, well, monstrous. Skullcrushers, bear and Ogre cav is very powerful when used correctly.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,239
    Jastalll said:

    Cathay cavalry is really bad, but my limited use of Kislev cav gives better results, and monstrous cav is, well, monstrous. Skullcrushers, bear and Ogre cav is very powerful when used correctly.

    Monstrous cavalry has never had any issues in TWWH as far as I know, the problem is the normal cav. Kislev's cavalry underpeforms compared to how hard it should hit with those charge bonuses.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • SaitohSaitoh Registered Users Posts: 385
    Horse cav is garbage in this series. They universally have pathetic melee stats for their cost and no AP damage. It's not down to a complicated physics simulation. Cavalry suck because their stats suck.
  • Jman5#8318Jman5#8318 Registered Users Posts: 2,050
    Yes, pathing is really messed up when it comes to trying to push through lower mass units. I've found it's best noticed with Plague Toads. They'll try to push through, but then suddenly just start crawling barely moving at all. It's slower than their walk speed.

    It's incredibly difficult to cycle charge right now without taking significant casualties.

    Add to this unit cohesion seems kind of messed up so units get strung out all over the place and it's a real mess for cavalry and fliers.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,828
    Probably not intentionally.


    Most likely influenced by some WH2 development as that game had similar issues you described
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,828
    KN_Gars said:

    Jastalll said:

    Cathay cavalry is really bad, but my limited use of Kislev cav gives better results, and monstrous cav is, well, monstrous. Skullcrushers, bear and Ogre cav is very powerful when used correctly.

    Monstrous cavalry has never had any issues in TWWH as far as I know, the problem is the normal cav. Kislev's cavalry underpeforms compared to how hard it should hit with those charge bonuses.
    Well....cold one Cavs have always been a tad contentious in mp.
  • DragantisDragantis PolandRegistered Users Posts: 789
    KN_Gars said:

    Cavalry seems to have reverted back to early Warhammer 2 status. You get impressive charges which send a lot of models flying but then the damage immunity given to knocked down models. Bad cavalry is one of the major things slowly but certainly killing my enjoyment of any Kislev campaign.

    Many thing reverted back to WH2 early stage, agent spam for example. Honestly DLC team is a lot better than core Warhammer team, they at least did listen to players and were doing fix and balanced a lot of things.
    Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!
  • RikisRikis Registered Users Posts: 1,682
    I'm having success with Slaanesh cavalry overall. Honestly any melee cavalry seem to do what they should, the shock cavalry though could use some help.
  • MikobotMikobot Registered Users Posts: 500
    Cav needs changes, agent hell needs to be canned.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 18,953
    Nah cav is fine well at least slaanesh and cathay cav perform according to thier stats.

    So does all the monstrous cav of orgers and kislev.

    Rest of the kislev cav i am not sure whats going on with them need to play around a bit.

    Assuming you get clean charges which is a thing now thanks to all the bugs.

    Worse case the changes of cav beta didn't make it to wh 3.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Mr_Finley7#4571Mr_Finley7#4571 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,375
    Maybe it’s the pathing specifically that’s **** up, being unable to withdraw from combat and push through infantry is ruining their functionality.

    I’m talking about bloodcrushers being unable to push through marauders
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 18,953

    Maybe it’s the pathing specifically that’s **** up, being unable to withdraw from combat and push through infantry is ruining their functionality.

    I’m talking about bloodcrushers being unable to push through marauders

    may be blood crushers have low mass doesn't seem to be problem for orger cav

    unit pathing is out right busted now though there are bugs that quite literally have not seen since Med 2 happening in wh 3

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,774
    Dragantis said:

    KN_Gars said:

    Cavalry seems to have reverted back to early Warhammer 2 status. You get impressive charges which send a lot of models flying but then the damage immunity given to knocked down models. Bad cavalry is one of the major things slowly but certainly killing my enjoyment of any Kislev campaign.

    Many thing reverted back to WH2 early stage, agent spam for example. Honestly DLC team is a lot better than core Warhammer team, they at least did listen to players and were doing fix and balanced a lot of things.
    I've been saying for years that Rich should be the lead game designer.

    Warhammer 2 is great because of him and his team.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • sykall#1105sykall#1105 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,984
    I have a technical question: that units laying down are immune to damage, e.g. after a charge, was that always a thing in the series? I cannot remember, but I think not.

    This is one big thing that bugs me about cav charges. As a cavalarist you would want your enemy lying down so that yiur horse may easily trample him, or you may stab him with a lance etc.
    I think units that are sent down by a charge should still be suseptible to damage and attacks. Especially in gameplay a well placed charge may make half a unit immune to damage for a time, thus somewhat negating the impact of your charge.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • Data5#9904Data5#9904 Registered Users Posts: 482
    Dragantis said:

    KN_Gars said:

    Cavalry seems to have reverted back to early Warhammer 2 status. You get impressive charges which send a lot of models flying but then the damage immunity given to knocked down models. Bad cavalry is one of the major things slowly but certainly killing my enjoyment of any Kislev campaign.

    Many thing reverted back to WH2 early stage, agent spam for example. Honestly DLC team is a lot better than core Warhammer team, they at least did listen to players and were doing fix and balanced a lot of things.
    I don't think it's that simple. WH3 probably used WH2 2018 as base and started developing new features. They got a deadline to meet and have lots of new code. DLC team can focus on polishing and balancing existing features and release a more stable product.
  • Artjuh90Artjuh90 Registered Users Posts: 1,697
    Let's be honest cav was kinda overpreforming in most of warhammers life cycle. just compare it to elite infantry and monsterious infantry those were always way bigger risk to bring and most of the time not cost effective while cav almost always was. it was not on SEM level but getting cose to it
  • Ungrol_FourHornUngrol_FourHorn Registered Users Posts: 175
    I'm more concerned with chariots. I don't know if this is specific to Slaaneshi chariots, but I had a disciple army with 3 Seeker Chariots, 2 Seeker cavalry, and a few marauders.
    I fought an early WoC 20 stack, and my 3 chariots spent the entire time charging mostly marauders, and each of them only got around 40 kills each. Both my Seeker cav got over 100 kills, and my Marauders of Slaanesh even outperformed the chariots and they only fought in the last quarter of the battle.
  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,684
    Saitoh said:

    Horse cav is garbage in this series. They universally have pathetic melee stats for their cost and no AP damage. It's not down to a complicated physics simulation. Cavalry suck because their stats suck.

    Nope.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,239
    Saitoh said:

    Horse cav is garbage in this series. They universally have pathetic melee stats for their cost and no AP damage. It's not down to a complicated physics simulation. Cavalry suck because their stats suck.

    That is because most cav is shock cav which is not supposed to stay in melee but rather cycle charge against targets with better melee stats. The charge bonus gets added to both melee attack and weapon strenght which means that Kislev lancers have Melee attack 86 and weapon strenght 116 (18AP) while the charge bonus lasts. And the issue is not some complicated physics simulation but that the game has a rule which gives any model that is knocked down full immunity to damage. So effectivly a large part of the target unit can be immune to damage for much of the period where the cavalry is at their most effective.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,774
    Artjuh90 said:

    Let's be honest cav was kinda overpreforming in most of warhammers life cycle. just compare it to elite infantry and monsterious infantry those were always way bigger risk to bring and most of the time not cost effective while cav almost always was. it was not on SEM level but getting cose to it

    You can't be serious.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 18,953

    Artjuh90 said:

    Let's be honest cav was kinda overpreforming in most of warhammers life cycle. just compare it to elite infantry and monsterious infantry those were always way bigger risk to bring and most of the time not cost effective while cav almost always was. it was not on SEM level but getting cose to it

    You can't be serious.
    Not talking about sp. They were pretty bonkers before mass changes.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,774
    saweendra said:

    Artjuh90 said:

    Let's be honest cav was kinda overpreforming in most of warhammers life cycle. just compare it to elite infantry and monsterious infantry those were always way bigger risk to bring and most of the time not cost effective while cav almost always was. it was not on SEM level but getting cose to it

    You can't be serious.
    Not talking about sp. They were pretty bonkers before mass changes.
    Cavalry has never been an S tier unit choice in the history of the TW:W franchise. To say they were ever getting close to SEM in terms of effectiveness is blatantly untrue.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 18,953

    saweendra said:

    Artjuh90 said:

    Let's be honest cav was kinda overpreforming in most of warhammers life cycle. just compare it to elite infantry and monsterious infantry those were always way bigger risk to bring and most of the time not cost effective while cav almost always was. it was not on SEM level but getting cose to it

    You can't be serious.
    Not talking about sp. They were pretty bonkers before mass changes.
    Cavalry has never been an S tier unit choice in the history of the TW:W franchise. To say they were ever getting close to SEM in terms of effectiveness is blatantly untrue.
    They were in the past for MP you should read the original post again they said close to not exactly same as SEms .

    And quite frankly in wh 2 currently better than 90 % of sems in majority of the match ups specifically on mp.

    Again the current state. And neither i would say the best unit category in wh 2 current state in mp



    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Mr_Finley7#4571Mr_Finley7#4571 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,375
    saweendra said:

    Maybe it’s the pathing specifically that’s **** up, being unable to withdraw from combat and push through infantry is ruining their functionality.

    I’m talking about bloodcrushers being unable to push through marauders

    may be blood crushers have low mass doesn't seem to be problem for orger cav

    unit pathing is out right busted now though there are bugs that quite literally have not seen since Med 2 happening in wh 3
    Why in the hell would juggernauts of Khorne have low mass
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 18,953

    saweendra said:

    Maybe it’s the pathing specifically that’s **** up, being unable to withdraw from combat and push through infantry is ruining their functionality.

    I’m talking about bloodcrushers being unable to push through marauders

    may be blood crushers have low mass doesn't seem to be problem for orger cav

    unit pathing is out right busted now though there are bugs that quite literally have not seen since Med 2 happening in wh 3
    Why in the hell would juggernauts of Khorne have low mass
    Beats me. Anyway we will not know further until balance patches roll out people start to go through data files to see the mass values...etc..

    Again this seems to not effect bears or orger cav. As for Khorne juggernauts i don't honestly know whats wrong with them.
    But i have not seen MP match or played in a match these guys did good

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


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