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The game is designed to be cancerous

NVNMNVNM Registered Users Posts: 182
I've been playing for around 60 hours now. Won a campaign as Skarbrand on H/H, which was actually incredibly easy because Skarbrands faction is overtuned.

The same can't be said for the other factions. I've tried most of them and they are [i]all[/i] terrible to play one way or another.
- Ku'Gath: Unnecessarily wonky economy and recruitment, the most boring slogging combat performance especially in sieges
- Kairos: Endless Cathayan doomstacks pushing into your territory, Changing of the Ways useless against the AI (Rebellions never succeed), teleport stance useless when next to the Great Wall and on top Dragon Emperor's Wrath can reduce your armies by 2/3rds within two turns, even inside your own territory
- Cathay: Opposite problem, endless Chaos stacks that will on occasion simply ignore the bastions entirely, useless allies behind your lines, Dragon Form is busted
- Daemon Prince: Everyone already knows about HIS issues but to reiterate: Ordertide by turn 10, useless skill tree, underpowered compared to every other LL
- Kislev: Rigged follower gain in favor of the AI, bad economy, Destructiontide by turn 20 or so
- Ogres: Food mechanic on top of attrition and bad traits in the Realms of Chaos, large units being unable to hit anything, Contracts for settlements on the other end of the map. Redeeming feature in the form of Gorgers but only because they're utterly imbalanced

All of this of course ON TOP of the general mechanics everybody hates like the rifts, the race for the souls, the Realm of Tzeentch, the obvious anti-player bias, the heavily and obviously cheating AI, the busted autoresolve, the sieges, the pathfinding and probably a dozen more things I forgot about.

Now, am I upset? A little, yes. The overall quality of the game is nowhere near that of Warhammer 2 at launch and it is obvious most of the mechanics mentioned were never properly tested. Certainly not on any difficulty beyond N/N. The main problem however is the fundamental design philosophy we have with Warhammer 3. I expected an iteration in the same way Three Kingdoms and Troy iterated on things learned during the development of Warhammer but that's not the case here. There are attempts, but they mostly fall flat or outright work to the detriment of the game.

I fail to see how any of this could have evaded the developers, unless there was no actual testing done at all. The game can't even decide between "Kislevite" and "Kislevian".
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Comments

  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,738
    By the time I won as Katarina my economy was great but I had Erenguard to Hellpit, Kislev to eastern Kislev provinces, up to and including owned Kraka Drak because Nurgle walked over them then I beat Nurgle. Spread armies out strategically. Defeat tide.

    Also, build the churches and you win the supporters with ease.
  • AnnoyedOneEyedGuyAnnoyedOneEyedGuy Registered Users Posts: 2,473
    sounds like this game might be too complicated for you, not all factions play the same and fight the same
  • NVNMNVNM Registered Users Posts: 182
    edited February 23
    Nyxilis said:

    By the time I won as Katarina my economy was great but I had Erenguard to Hellpit, Kislev to eastern Kislev provinces, up to and including owned Kraka Drak because Nurgle walked over them then I beat Nurgle. Spread armies out strategically. Defeat tide.

    Also, build the churches and you win the supporters with ease.

    As I understand it the AI will almost certainly win the first part of the race but will then slow down considerably. Why that is I don't know but it invalidates the entire thing. That's why I mean by "cancerous", it's a system in place to annoy - not challenge or engage - the player.

    Fighting the AI in general is like fighting Grimgor after he confederated all of the Badlands in WH2. Is it possible? Sure. Fun? Hell no.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,320
    I for one welcome a challenge, because lord knows most of WH2 wasn't a challenge at all once the DLCs and patches hit.

    Remember when Skaven food was too hard for people so they made the faction a faceroll?
  • NVNMNVNM Registered Users Posts: 182
    edited February 23
    Nitros14 said:

    I for one welcome a challenge, because lord knows most of WH2 wasn't a challenge at all once the DLCs and patches hit.

    Remember when Skaven food was too hard for people so they made the faction a faceroll?

    The same will happen here, no doubt. Which goes back to the faulty design philosophy I mentioned.
  • DTAPPSNZDTAPPSNZ Registered Users Posts: 1,522
    edited February 23
    Lower the difficulty if you cant handle it. No shame in it.

    Warhammer 2 was buggy as hell at launch and most factions played way more similar in base W2 than base W3. wtf?
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,738
    NVNM said:

    Nyxilis said:

    By the time I won as Katarina my economy was great but I had Erenguard to Hellpit, Kislev to eastern Kislev provinces, up to and including owned Kraka Drak because Nurgle walked over them then I beat Nurgle. Spread armies out strategically. Defeat tide.

    Also, build the churches and you win the supporters with ease.

    As I understand it the AI will almost certainly win the first part of the race but will then slow down considerably. Why that is I don't know but it invalidates the entire thing. That's why I mean by "cancerous", it's a system in place to annoy - not challenge or engage - the player.

    Fighting the AI in general is like fighting Grimgor after he confederated all of the Badlands in WH2. Is it possible? Sure. Fun? Hell no.
    Depends entirely how aggressive you are and if you prioritize the holy building or not. If you don't yeah they often have a lead.

    However, you do realize you have a mechanic to rip their supporters away right? You can use money or devotion later and spending it sacks their bar. You can strip away any gains they have early. Two games of Katarina and Kost winning the race was the least of my worries.

    Well, it's only not fun when you get ground down and can't defend. This didn't happen for me, felt like Kislev is supposed to be. Under siege. Castle town on the west coast, the gap in the NE were the areas I had the most trouble in.

    South was locked in by the empire which currying favor with paid out better than it ever did in WH1 and WH2. War coordination is totally worth it at this point and I used it to shred multiple opponents attempting to hassle my southern borders.
  • NVNMNVNM Registered Users Posts: 182
    DTAPPSNZ said:

    Lower the difficulty if you cant handle it. No shame in it.

    Difficulty doesn't affect faulty design.
  • DTAPPSNZDTAPPSNZ Registered Users Posts: 1,522
    edited February 23
    NVNM said:

    DTAPPSNZ said:

    Lower the difficulty if you cant handle it. No shame in it.

    Difficulty doesn't affect faulty design.
    Skarbrand is op, of course you found him easy. I'm waiting for a nerf before playing him on H/H. My Katarin campaign has been very thematic. I'm a legit wall for the empire. Dealt with vampires and ogres early and took their land as an economy builder. Saved the Empire from annihilation, even Karl. Pushing back north now, past the mountains. Its been a fun challenge.

    Realms of Chaos is fun but definitely needs balancing.

    Cant comment on every race because I don't play every campaign at once or even multiple campaigns at once. The design is fine for me though. Play tall in RoC, Play wide in IE.

  • Eth3ryasEth3ryas Registered Users Posts: 955
    I agree the game is not really fun but I didn't like warhammer II at launch either, played it for like 10-15 hours then waited for the combined map like I'll do with this game. After I get Ku'gath max level and a decent chunk of land I think I'll be done with the game till the combined map.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,757
    Sorry, sounds like you're just really bad at the game.

  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 5,063
    edited February 23
    The Cathay complaint in particular strikes a cord. As though you simply didn't bother observing how the AI interacts with the wall. The wall itself can lower the upkeep cost of unit's stationed there to almost free, and it stacks with the lord skills for the lord you should have at each post. There's no reason not to have 20 units at each fortress since they're practically free. Even if you only throw peasants up there it's more than enough to simply have bodies. Tzeentch will attempt to circumnavigate the wall by teleporting over the mountain. Two ways to stop it. Camp an army out in the desert, or take the top of the mountain and hold him there. Either way if he teleports over the mountain range he won't have enough movement to avoid getting caught by you. With a free army at each gate fortress and one in the southern desert to catch armies wandering in you could just afk the campaign and have no problem at all.

    Kislev is supposed to be up against a wall. There's a pass in the northern most forest of Kislev that leads to Norscan settlements. Don't push past that until you're absolutely certain you can. Otherwise just hold the line and expand south. All four demons will pour endless hordes at you, just hold the line. Kislev has a decent economy. Not Ogre powerful, but stronger than Cathay unless Cathay manages to swing a ton of trade agreements. Build the market at each of the three major settlements, mini market at every minor settlement, and when the race for support is over sack the orthodox churches for farms and old god buildings. Each province should net you around 2k, Kislev and Praag 2.5k, Erengard is well over 4k.

    Ogres shouldn't ever run out of food. Camps prevent food consumption for armies and even massively increase their gains. I'm not even sure how you'd run out of food unless you deliberately avoided setting up and researching camps. Never set up your last available camp as a permanent fixture. Carry it around with you and set it up at the end of that armies turn, dump your units into the camp, then end your turn. You'll never run out of food and operate at a near constant 60% upkeep reduction.
  • Eth3ryasEth3ryas Registered Users Posts: 955
    I do not like the demon soul mechanic, Kislev has no other target than sending wave after wave to me and auto-resolve is so stupid (auto-resolve full army vs 5-10 crap units I lose 3-4 units and half the hp of my army). So boring having to fight easy fights again and again because auto-resolve is ****.
  • RikisRikis Registered Users Posts: 1,682
    I'll grant you I'm not a fan of the current ordertide + Skrag gunning for me as the Daemon Prince but I still find the game fun! Just wish there would be a way to ease the tide a bit, my armies are just playing whack a mole on my border areas. Maybe a more Beastmen like diplomacy or something

    The Soul race though isn't my cup of tea, I really hate being rushed or in a race.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,761
    not my experience. Actually the Daemon Prince campaign was very easy and the skill tree provides huge upkeep discounts. There is an annoying anti-player bias, but that was the case in every other game, till modded out.
  • saj1987saj1987 Registered Users Posts: 202
    KISLEV?! BAD ECONOMY?! Ataman boosts, global boosts from resource buildings, 2 money buildings in minor settlements and an awesome money building in major settlemets. Kislev is probably going to be in the top 3 richest factions in Mortal Empires2. WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT?!
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 2,444
    edited February 23
    Frankly it sounds like you tried to play each faction like it was a Warhammer 2 faction without paying much attention to their special rules and circumstances.

    Others have pointed out the problems with your Cathay complaint. As far as Kislev is concerned you seem to have missed just how how supporters are gained and lost. You gain supporters not just from invocations and buildings but also by fighting Chaos, on the other hand you loose supporters every time you fight a battle with other Kislevites. While both Katarin and Kostaltyn start at war with a Kislevite faction it is Katarin's civil war which is likely to involve more fighting as you face a larger enemy backed by a Great City. Kostaltyn on the other hand can end his civil war much quicker and start to fight the real enemy which means that not only will he gain supporters from buildings, he will do so from his relentless battles with Chaos. (And as Kostaltyn you have to be agressive.) So when playing as Katarin you will have to plan carefully to get ahead in the spiritual struggle for Kislev, you need to build up your supporter economy from the start to compensate for those that you will lose each time you fight other Kislevites. You also need to end your civil war quickly and get to fighting Norsca to gain additional support.

    While Kislev's economy is not as strong early on as Cathay's is thanks to the caravans you still start with a significant base income and as long as you recruit the right force mix that should keep you afloat as you build up your provinces.

    Neither 3K nor Troy "iterated on things learned during the development of Warhammer", 3K was done by a separate team using a new engine that is pretty different from the one used by Warhammer. Troy does use the Warhammer 2 engine as a fundation but CA Sofia pretty reworked it from the ground up to end up with significant improvements in some parts. (Campaign gameplay and cavalry that actually works to name two.)
    Post edited by KN_Gars on
    And also people gotta not confuse world building, you know, bring the world to life by referencing stuffs that isn't on the map, or is an event, to some kind of announcement, you know? That is certainly not the case.
    -Andy Hall, Principal Writer and Narrative Designer for Warhammer 3.
  • Wood_SpriteWood_Sprite Registered Users Posts: 153
    edited February 23
    If your difficulty is anything above normal, you need to tone it down. Outside of the launch bugs etc, the only big area game has issues with is the pace of the soul race. Everything else is so good, I legit feel depressed when I have to work and can't play.

    On my Katarin campaign I'm running 3 armies (2 full stacks) at turn 70, saving dwarves and empire constantly. Rifts are a minor issue as I only have 4 provinces (including 2 city states). Here's what I did to achieve this:

    1. Selected units for each army based on best match-up. Katarin's army has 10 Ice Guards who all cost 100 gold in upkeep each - thats as low as Kossars.
    2. Did not expand too fast - I still haven't confederated all Kislev factions despite having the option - its a hit to your economy when you don't need it.
    3. Build a couple churches right at the start of the campaign, Kostaltyn never caught up to me on devotion.

    The way to play is different and far more engaging in this game imo compared to WH2. I hope they keep a lot of this in IE as well.
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,469
    I dunno..While I agree with some of your points, I dont think 60 hours is enough to evaluate all factions in detail.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 12,460
    The game is bad. I am hoping it is due to covid rather than CAs prime being all over.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • AnnoyedOneEyedGuyAnnoyedOneEyedGuy Registered Users Posts: 2,473

    The game is bad. I am hoping it is due to covid rather than CAs prime being all over.

    no its not, you're just a an upset person
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,635
    The game has serious flaws, but this seems like you should lower the difficulty or learn to play better.
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  • SindanezSindanez Registered Users Posts: 9
    Its wild to me that so many of these responses are simple "git guud scrub" messages like he didn't raise like 12 points in here some more valid than the rest. The ogre food thing is pretty true on both fronts food simultaneously isn't an issue and is annoying that when it is an issue its most likely because of sieges. And even if you disagree on the cathay and tzeench portions hes spot on about the demon prince having LL forest throwing **** at you for no reason like there isn't an ogre closer to her and kugath having weird growth and recruitment
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,757
    edited February 23
    Sindanez said:

    Its wild to me that so many of these responses are simple "git guud scrub" messages like he didn't raise like 12 points in here some more valid than the rest. The ogre food thing is pretty true on both fronts food simultaneously isn't an issue and is annoying that when it is an issue its most likely because of sieges. And even if you disagree on the cathay and tzeench portions hes spot on about the demon prince having LL forest throwing **** at you for no reason like there isn't an ogre closer to her and kugath having weird growth and recruitment

    Ok, I'll actually entertain this and write a detailed response to each of the points:

    "- Ku'Gath: Unnecessarily wonky economy and recruitment, the most boring slogging combat performance especially in sieges" - Economy and recruitment works just fine and has its ups and downs. The recruitment system is more or less straight from Thrones of Britannia. It has the advantage of being able to raise an army fast and having global recruitment by default and the disadvantage of not being able to spam higher level units easily which I actually like. Not every race has to play the same and it's good they've made effort to make them different. Nurgle roster does suck though.


    "- Kairos: Endless Cathayan doomstacks pushing into your territory, Changing of the Ways useless against the AI (Rebellions never succeed), teleport stance useless when next to the Great Wall and on top Dragon Emperor's Wrath can reduce your armies by 2/3rds within two turns, even inside your own territory" - Changing of Ways is extremely powerful vs AI. Yes some options like force rebellions are weak but some like transferring settlements, forcing wars and halting factions are strong. You don't even have to expand towards Cathay, you can conquer the wastes first and Cathay AI never pushes far beyond the bastion. If you do want to go after Cathay it's not hard to crush them if you know what you're doing, so idk what else to say here. They do get a boost when you play Tzeentch and produce more armies but that's actually a good thing as it makes the campaign a bit more interesting.


    "- Cathay: Opposite problem, endless Chaos stacks that will on occasion simply ignore the bastions entirely, useless allies behind your lines, Dragon Form is busted" - I'm not sure what the issue with the Dragon Form is. Kurgan invasions are easy to manage if you manage the bastion threat level.

    "- Daemon Prince: Everyone already knows about HIS issues but to reiterate: Ordertide by turn 10, useless skill tree, underpowered compared to every other LL" - He is a bit weak and the AI focuses you hard, so it's a harder campaign. Drop the difficulty or play another faction if you can't manage it? It's still very winnable. I do agree Deamon Prince might need a bit of a buff as his current state just feels bad though.

    "- Kislev: Rigged follower gain in favor of the AI, bad economy, Destructiontide by turn 20 or so" - It's TRIVIAL to win the follower race if you actually bother participating. Again it's a harder campaign like the DP but completely winnable. Kislev economy is absolutely fine.

    "- Ogres: Food mechanic on top of attrition and bad traits in the Realms of Chaos, large units being unable to hit anything, Contracts for settlements on the other end of the map. Redeeming feature in the form of Gorgers but only because they're utterly imbalanced" - Food is easy to manage, just stockpile enough before going into realms, I'm not even sure what "large units being unable to hit anything" means because most units in the Ogres roster are strong and pull their weight just fine. I can agree that the contract system sucks but you can more or less ignore it.

  • winzartenwinzarten Registered Users Posts: 4
    Sindanez said:

    kugath having weird growth and recruitment

    I don't want every faction to be a reskinned empire, playing exactly the same. I want factions to have different feel and require different play style. So, sure, if you try to play Nurgle faction as a regular TW faction, you will fail.

    I actually like the different campaign mechanics. It forces you (if you want to be successfull) to actually think about how to make the faction strong.

    For Kugath, I'm playing only on normal/normal, but I've just grabbed my first soul (Nurgle), and have 50000k in bank, with steady income (so I'm doing something right). Don't focus on growth as much, as with other factions, but focus more on military buildings, so you build your unit pool. Supplement the missing growth with plagues.

    The instant recruitment is very powerfull and allows you much more flexibility with your army than other faction have. And it gets even more powerfull once you get to single entities, like soul grinders (which only require lvl3, so can be produced in minor settlemetns). Within a turn you can add these into your armies, if you are facing a stronger opponent. Sure, they will only be at some 30% of health, but one AOE heal, at the beginning of the battle, will get them to almost to full strength.

    This is the reason why Kugath economy is so weak. Becasue instant recruitment with strong economy would make the faction snowball into OP quite easily. Becasue with few military buildings and correct plague composition you would be spewing out sould grinders faster that other factions can recruit them normally.

    But yes, the army is slow and sluggish. So? Are we gonna complain that Dwarves are also slow, or that Vampire Counts lack ranged? Atleast you have time to enjoy the joyfull infectious abominations of Nurgles children :)
  • SindanezSindanez Registered Users Posts: 9


    "- Ku'Gath: Unnecessarily wonky economy and recruitment, the most boring slogging combat performance especially in sieges" - Economy and recruitment works just fine and has its ups and downs. The recruitment system is more or less straight from Thrones of Britannia. It has the advantage of being able to raise an army fast and having global recruitment by default and the disadvantage of not being able to spam higher level units easily which I actually like. Not every race has to play the same and it's good they've made effort to make them different. Nurgle roster does suck though.

    This discrepancy might be a difference into the usage of the word wonky. I agree nurgle being different makes them exciting and very obviously not cookie cutter but that still is something that can easily offput people. not having access to units they have the infrastructure for (sometimes, depends on gestation levels etc) can be understandably off putting. That all being said I love the big green man and his stinky roster i think the little gestation periods are super cool and provide a very fun rhythm to recruitment.

    To round it all back tldr wonky doesn't equate to inherently negative just wild and wacky which perfectly fits someone like kugath imo
  • SindanezSindanez Registered Users Posts: 9
    winzarten said:

    Sindanez said:

    kugath having weird growth and recruitment

    I don't want every faction to be a reskinned empire, playing exactly the same. I want factions to have different feel and require different play style. So, sure, if you try to play Nurgle faction as a regular TW faction, you will fail.

    I actually like the different campaign mechanics. It forces you (if you want to be successfull) to actually think about how to make the faction strong.

    For Kugath, I'm playing only on normal/normal, but I've just grabbed my first soul (Nurgle), and have 50000k in bank, with steady income (so I'm doing something right). Don't focus on growth as much, as with other factions, but focus more on military buildings, so you build your unit pool. Supplement the missing growth with plagues.

    The instant recruitment is very powerfull and allows you much more flexibility with your army than other faction have. And it gets even more powerfull once you get to single entities, like soul grinders (which only require lvl3, so can be produced in minor settlemetns). Within a turn you can add these into your armies, if you are facing a stronger opponent. Sure, they will only be at some 30% of health, but one AOE heal, at the beginning of the battle, will get them to almost to full strength.

    This is the reason why Kugath economy is so weak. Becasue instant recruitment with strong economy would make the faction snowball into OP quite easily. Becasue with few military buildings and correct plague composition you would be spewing out sould grinders faster that other factions can recruit them normally.

    But yes, the army is slow and sluggish. So? Are we gonna complain that Dwarves are also slow, or that Vampire Counts lack ranged? Atleast you have time to enjoy the joyfull infectious abominations of Nurgles children :)
    This whole post deserves a hug nurgle lads do hard work shuffling at their enemies! <3
  • NVNMNVNM Registered Users Posts: 182
    edited February 23

    I'm not even sure what "large units being unable to hit anything" means because most units in the Ogres roster are strong and pull their weight just fine. I can agree that the contract system sucks but you can more or less ignore it.

    Large units being unable to properly engage each other or smaller units is a known issue. The Cathayan LLs in Dragon Form are unable to damage even a single unit of peasant archers. You can try it yourself. The same is true for ogres, with lords being more affected than units.

    Of course this will eventually be fixed but it raises the question how nobody noticed it BEFORE launch.


    "- Kislev: Rigged follower gain in favor of the AI, bad economy, Destructiontide by turn 20 or so" - It's TRIVIAL to win the follower race if you actually bother participating. Again it's a harder campaign like the DP but completely winnable. Kislev economy is absolutely fine.


    The race indeed becomes trivial but it appears to be rigged so that the first leg of the race is always in favor of the AI. Meaning the entire thing is both anti-player and irrelevant at the later stages. Again: Bad design.
    Just observe their follower growth over the first ~15 turns, they generate more followers than could be possible even with a full province of shrines (which they don't have, according to the game) and multiple battles per turn.

    You don't even have to expand towards Cathay, you can conquer the wastes first and Cathay AI never pushes far beyond the bastion.


    The AI will swarm the chaos wastes if unchallenged. This has been my experience over multiple restarts.
    Sure, I can just... leave entirely, but that's hardly the point now is it? It's the same problem the Daemon Prince has, Ordertide knocking on your door where ever you currently are. The game expects you to fend off the Cathayan stacks while ALSO using your main army to go after the souls. At the minimum this creates an endless slog of horrible siege battles that you can't really lose but are also forced to resolve manually every time.

    Also the Chaos Hordes that are supposed to attack the wall are again rigged to always fail, even with indirect help from the player. When you're playing Cathay they suddenly become a threat, meaning the design is deliberately biased against whichever faction you're playing as.
  • NVNMNVNM Registered Users Posts: 182
    edited February 23
    Sindanez said:


    To round it all back tldr wonky doesn't equate to inherently negative just wild and wacky which perfectly fits someone like kugath imo

    I understand what they're trying to do but the faction is just different for the sake of being different. Kairos, N'Kari and Skarbrand all have the same buildings with minor differences.

    And by the way, because I'm sure someone will make that argument at some point: Three Kingdoms didn't have to resort to such obvious biases against the player or AI cheats to create the illusion of a challenge. So I know for a fact all of this could be less tedious.
  • SindanezSindanez Registered Users Posts: 9
    NVNM said:

    Sindanez said:


    To round it all back tldr wonky doesn't equate to inherently negative just wild and wacky which perfectly fits someone like kugath imo

    I understand what they're trying to do but the faction is just different for the sake of being different. Kairos, N'Kari and Skarbrand all have the same buildings with minor differences.
    Thats a fair stance and I thank you for expressing it ^_^
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