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Please don't nerf units based on multiplayer, adjust costs instead!

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  • steam_164508117833cGm95S8steam_164508117833cGm95S8 Registered Users Posts: 18
    To address a lot of the comments: I am not against balancing units at all!
    I am only opposed to the balancing being based on multiplayer performance, because the information shared by CA about future balancing was based only on multiplayer performance of the factions.

    I chose the Gorger as an example because they can be very useful in campaign but are by no means overpowered. I ran my Goldtooth campaign with no Gorgers (well at some point I recruited 2 into an army to save a city from a siege against a Cathay full of cannons and crossbows, so stalk and vanguard was essential). And in the late game they aren't all that great anymore but still have that somewhat niche utility. Which I think it's exactly where a useful Tier 3 unit should be.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    yst said:

    I really dont understand how people play orge kingdoms. None of my orge builds ever includes gorgers or ironblasters. The later i can understand as u may want a 380m art, but gorgers is just pointless lol like helooooo orges r $500

    A $1100 unit with less survival than a $500 lol

    Stalk and unbreakable means nothing to you?
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,900

    Stalk and unbreakable means nothing to you?

    Absolutely nothing whatsoever, this is domination, if ure not fight on those 3 spots, what r u doing.
    Also orges r $500, why would i ever need a $1100 unit do so similar job.
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  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,900
    edited April 5
    Reduced the AP damage dealt from 70 to 50
    Reduced the total entity count per Gorger unit from 16 to 12

    So basically this is how much, looks like a $350 ish nerf
    Basically like nerfing kroak lol already a useless unit made more useless

    Actually dont really care much what they do to gorger and ironblasters, definitely have 0 impact on orges power.

    CA is only making orges stronger by having less ppl using these trash units lol
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  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    yst said:

    Reduced the AP damage dealt from 70 to 50
    Reduced the total entity count per Gorger unit from 16 to 12

    So basically this is how much, looks like a $350 ish nerf
    Basically like nerfing kroak lol already a useless unit made more useless

    It depends on how you look at it. The unit lost 25% of its value in models which is technically worth 275 points. Because you're paying 33% more per model, I think it would actually be more correct to say that that it's a 366 point nerf for the model count change. Then they also lowered the WS by 20 AP which is more than 20% of the unit's remaining damage and a 40% loss in total WS.

    I'd say for the most part, it puts them in line with Korne-Bulls for relative cost, but they're competing with Maneaters who are probably going to do better in general unless you can get value out of their stalk and vanguard to hit ideal targets and avoid getting shot
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    yst said:


    Absolutely nothing whatsoever, this is domination, if ure not fight on those 3 spots, what r u doing.
    Also orges r $500, why would i ever need a $1100 unit do so similar job.

    Stalk and vanguard do matter. Cause it let you make sneaky trade on flank point if necessary. Unbreakable do mean that unit would hold for very long time. IMHO nerf on gorgers probably was too harsh, but we would see.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 18,905
    tank3487 said:

    yst said:


    Absolutely nothing whatsoever, this is domination, if ure not fight on those 3 spots, what r u doing.
    Also orges r $500, why would i ever need a $1100 unit do so similar job.

    Stalk and vanguard do matter. Cause it let you make sneaky trade on flank point if necessary. Unbreakable do mean that unit would hold for very long time. IMHO nerf on gorgers probably was too harsh, but we would see.
    nah it wasn't that thing was way over performing specially if it was intended to be a more disruption unit than click delete unit
    specially vs light to medium targets

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 814
    yst said:

    Stalk and unbreakable means nothing to you?

    Absolutely nothing whatsoever, this is domination, if ure not fight on those 3 spots, what r u doing.
    Also orges r $500, why would i ever need a $1100 unit do so similar job.
    Gorgers had similar to Minotaur stats and performance before patch. They cost 1100 and minotaurs cost 1600.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 665
    Gorgers aren't meant to be front line troops, but they were so overpowered they could be used as such.

    Glad for the nerfs. Curious to see what little balance was done will shake out.

    Does anyone know if they fixed up the leaderboard?
  • steam_164508117833cGm95S8steam_164508117833cGm95S8 Registered Users Posts: 18
    So Gorgers are pretty useless in campaign now, at least in my opinion. I fought one battle where they got deleted by Jade lancers. Now they are a very expensive unit with no survivability. Being unbreakable is kind of a bad thing because it means if anything other than low-tier infantry looks at them, you'll loose the whole unit. I'm sure they'll still be of niche use in multiplayer but that was exactly my problem with balancing from a multiplayer perspective.

    I agree they could have been nerfed in some way for campaign balancing but something like reducing weapon strength and melee attack but increased bonus vs infantry so they wouldn't be able to beat monstrous units or cavalry like before but would still have effectiveness against infantry and wouldn't die so quickly.

    Ironguts are far superior to Gorgers now. And they're cheaper.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,672

    So Gorgers are pretty useless in campaign now, at least in my opinion. I fought one battle where they got deleted by Jade lancers. Now they are a very expensive unit with no survivability. Being unbreakable is kind of a bad thing because it means if anything other than low-tier infantry looks at them, you'll loose the whole unit. I'm sure they'll still be of niche use in multiplayer but that was exactly my problem with balancing from a multiplayer perspective.

    I agree they could have been nerfed in some way for campaign balancing but something like reducing weapon strength and melee attack but increased bonus vs infantry so they wouldn't be able to beat monstrous units or cavalry like before but would still have effectiveness against infantry and wouldn't die so quickly.

    Ironguts are far superior to Gorgers now. And they're cheaper.

    Although i kinda agree that gorgers have been overnerfed, they were never supposed to compete with ironguts.

    Gorgers were never supposed to be, imho, a unit you would use as a "frontline". Their role was supposed to be flanking thanks to their stalk and vanguard deployment.

    But imho, the nerf has been completely excesive.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 18,905

    So Gorgers are pretty useless in campaign now, at least in my opinion. I fought one battle where they got deleted by Jade lancers. Now they are a very expensive unit with no survivability. Being unbreakable is kind of a bad thing because it means if anything other than low-tier infantry looks at them, you'll loose the whole unit. I'm sure they'll still be of niche use in multiplayer but that was exactly my problem with balancing from a multiplayer perspective.

    I agree they could have been nerfed in some way for campaign balancing but something like reducing weapon strength and melee attack but increased bonus vs infantry so they wouldn't be able to beat monstrous units or cavalry like before but would still have effectiveness against infantry and wouldn't die so quickly.

    Ironguts are far superior to Gorgers now. And they're cheaper.

    Bs they work pretty well in camapagin just finshed my gresus one even after the berf.

    I just don't use them as front line but as back line harras units.


    Iron guts are front line units gorgers were back line units meant to go around defenses and do ambushes on range troops.


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,810

    So Gorgers are pretty useless in campaign now, at least in my opinion. I fought one battle where they got deleted by Jade lancers. Now they are a very expensive unit with no survivability. Being unbreakable is kind of a bad thing because it means if anything other than low-tier infantry looks at them, you'll loose the whole unit. I'm sure they'll still be of niche use in multiplayer but that was exactly my problem with balancing from a multiplayer perspective.

    I agree they could have been nerfed in some way for campaign balancing but something like reducing weapon strength and melee attack but increased bonus vs infantry so they wouldn't be able to beat monstrous units or cavalry like before but would still have effectiveness against infantry and wouldn't die so quickly.

    Ironguts are far superior to Gorgers now. And they're cheaper.

    You're talking campaign right? Then why do you care how "expensive" they are when gold is a literal non-factor?


    Also why are you even comparing them to Ironguts, that's apples and oranges. It's like asking why you should use Phoenix Guards when you can make Sisters of Avelorn instead
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 665
    Before the nerf gorgers:

    Hit harder than Ironguts (they had the exact same weapon strength, then had a 20(!) bonus vs inf on top of that.

    Are unbreakable.

    Frenzy as well (increasing ma and weapon strength even higher than Ironguts), which they can't lose. These stats aren't on the card for easy comparison.

    Stalk.

    Vanguard.

    All for +100 gold -75 armour (which has to be the junk stat for a unit with stalk).

    If you think -4 models and needing to use Ironguts instead, for frontline combat, you're part of the problem.

    Gorgers get to 116 melee attack on the charge. Their base ma against infantry is 72. If you aren't using them to ambush ranged troops walking to a point, you aren't using them to the full potential. If you aren't flanking, you aren't using them for their full potential. If you're using them as a frontline brawler, you aren't using them to their full potential.

    The nerf was warranted and they are still an incredible unit that easily pays for itself in every battle. Every army needs at least one gorger on the payroll.
  • steam_164508117833cGm95S8steam_164508117833cGm95S8 Registered Users Posts: 18
    Why did everyone assume I was using Gorgers as frontline? Because I compared them to Ironguts? I meant as flanking units.

    Gorgers can still be very good as flanking units. Unless the enemy has any cavalry, like Jade lancers, then if by chance they spot your Gorgers when you go for the flank you loose the unit? Which makes it less incredibly risky to try and flank with non stalking units, like Ironguts (they have the same speed). Same tier infantry with more versatility now. And since I am comparing them directly to the gorgers, I think it is fair to take their relative costs into account. Especially when I was referring to both recruitment cost and upkeep. Upkeep cost is very important in campaign.

    Or you can use sabretusks which you can make into units that stalk and have frenzy with a hunter. They are way more replaceable.

    Glass cannon units can be fine in campaign but only if they're convenient to replace. Gorgers take 2 turns to recruit locally, and are way too expensive (now talking about recruitment cost) for units that you have to replace often.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 665


    (they have the same speed).

    ... All Ogre units have the same speed of 54.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,900
    y4g3r said:



    All for +100 gold -75 armour (which has to be the junk stat for a unit with stalk).

    Lol rubbish, its a melee unit. Every single time this unit is being used, armor is applied.
    70 armor on trolls alone is $150.

    So the difference on those 2 units r $250
    Again no need for me to waste time, anyone with any common sense knows this unit is pure garbage, even PRIOR to nerfs. Now its auto skip.

    Same trash as ancient sal, wait for the mega re-buff
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  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 665
    edited April 21
    yst said:

    y4g3r said:



    All for +100 gold -75 armour (which has to be the junk stat for a unit with stalk).

    Lol rubbish, its a melee unit. Every single time this unit is being used, armor is applied.
    70 armor on trolls alone is $150.

    So the difference on those 2 units r $250
    Again no need for me to waste time, anyone with any common sense knows this unit is pure garbage, even PRIOR to nerfs. Now its auto skip.

    Same trash as ancient sal, wait for the mega re-buff
    Lol totes, ranged units deal too much damage to invis units. Ur rite. Lolz "I need armour on invis units!!! uP up UP qq qq qq!"


    Who could find value flanking with an unbreakable, invisible 54 speed infantry-blender? Such a waste of a unit. I could never see it useful to rear charge or attack ranged units. Trash!
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,672
    yst said:

    y4g3r said:



    All for +100 gold -75 armour (which has to be the junk stat for a unit with stalk).

    Lol rubbish, its a melee unit. Every single time this unit is being used, armor is applied.
    70 armor on trolls alone is $150.

    So the difference on those 2 units r $250
    Again no need for me to waste time, anyone with any common sense knows this unit is pure garbage, even PRIOR to nerfs. Now its auto skip.

    Same trash as ancient sal, wait for the mega re-buff
    You are objectively wrong.

    I mean, i know you like to be the contrarian. But gorgers had stats that were clearly out of their price range while also having better traits than other monster inf.

    image
    gif en español


    Minos had the advantage in terms of armour and speed. Gorgers had the advantage in terms of stats, with a total of +9 MA/MD (assuming bloodgreed and frenzy are always on), leadership (well, unbreakable), and better CB, as well as negligibly better HP and BvInf.

    So, even without stalk and vanguard, gorgers were better or at least as good as minos dual weapons, while costing 150 less.

    But on top of all that, gorgers had stalk and vanguard deployment. They were in a completely different league. They beat minos dual weapons in price, combat performance AND price.
  • slevironsleviron Registered Users Posts: 2
    Gorgers are definitely weak in the campaign. Ogres are much better pricewise. Gorgers were mostly good in pvp because of their unbreakable trait. Otherwise they are a pretty balanced anti-infantry. If more people knew how to read and had used counters for them they would've never have been nerfed.

    Imagine someone thinks it's a good idea to balance the entire base game and the whole campaign for both MP and SP, just because of some feedback from a minor gamemode specifically aimed only for PVP quickmatches....
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 960
    sleviron said:

    Gorgers are definitely weak in the campaign. Ogres are much better pricewise. Gorgers were mostly good in pvp because of their unbreakable trait. Otherwise they are a pretty balanced anti-infantry. If more people knew how to read and had used counters for them they would've never have been nerfed.

    Imagine someone thinks it's a good idea to balance the entire base game and the whole campaign for both MP and SP, just because of some feedback from a minor gamemode specifically aimed only for PVP quickmatches....

    The problem is they won vs many of their counters.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,672
    sleviron said:

    Gorgers are definitely weak in the campaign. Ogres are much better pricewise. Gorgers were mostly good in pvp because of their unbreakable trait. Otherwise they are a pretty balanced anti-infantry. If more people knew how to read and had used counters for them they would've never have been nerfed.

    Imagine someone thinks it's a good idea to balance the entire base game and the whole campaign for both MP and SP, just because of some feedback from a minor gamemode specifically aimed only for PVP quickmatches....

    Lol. Gorgers were nerfed mostly because campaign balance. They made half of the ogre roster pointless. Why would anyone develop a camp to level 5 when ogres had more gold than they could use in campaign while having gorgers at tier 3 that were more than enough by themselves to beat the campaign?
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