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Outside of the Slann who is the most powerful magic user?

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  • LegendaryArticunoLegendaryArticuno Registered Users Posts: 501
    edited April 22
    Miao Ying
    Celestial Dragons based on the latest lore.

    The problem with Kairos is that he's kinda of a big jobber.
  • #254403#254403 Registered Users Posts: 2,066
    Nagash

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Nah. Teclis would rofl stomp Morathi. Morathi has the experience but Teclis has way more raw power. Even though Morthi is way older outside of corrupting Aenarion and raising Malekith what are her accomplishments? Who has she defeated in battle?

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Malekith wasn't winning at all.

    Telcis beat Malekith, sure he used the flames but if Malekith was better then Telcis then he would have blocked it.


    Iirc it was stated that Telcis was the most powerful elven mage ever
    Not just most powerful elven mage but the 5th edition army book states him as the most powerful mage period.
    -Created Dark Magic, and by extension, necromancy. Nagash, the Tomb Kings, vampires and all the necromancers wouldn't even exist if not for Morathi's deeds.
    -Achieved immortality through this Dark Magic.
    -Rescued his son from the wrath of a god, creating a way to "resurrect" him and make him even more powerful than before, despite some immortal and goddy flames burning him constantly.
    -Guilty of the Sundering.
    -Guilty of fracturing elf society and creating the eternal conflict between the Asur and the Druchii.
    -Control of the entire Naggaroth and Malekith through manipulation and politics.
    -Corrupted Aenarion, Malekith and Tyrion.

    I'm not a big fan of Morathi, I actually hate her character and what she has done. In my opinion, she is the most evil of all the characters in the setting. However, discussing the deeds of the most catastrophic being in the setting shouldn't be subject to debate. Her deeds are only rivalled by those of Caledor or Nagash, but not Teclis. I'm not saying Teclis wouldn't be able to do as much as her... Khaine knows, maybe even more! But he is still too young.

    Oh, sure, the 5th HE Army Book states Teclis as the most powerful mage period. That can't be biased at all. No, of course not! But I don't know why am I debating this with someone who thinks Teclis is more powerful than Nagash...
    She’s probably the most *influential* character in WH for her impact on the setting, and her arcane knowledge is unparalleled but she’s not necessarily the most powerful in terms of raw power.

    Teclis and Nagash are constantly compared as being in a league of their own so clearly exceed her and she’s suffered defeats from both Malekith and Ariel.
    She wasn't defeated by Malekith nor Ariel in a magic duel. She was defeated by Malekith, who was leading an entire army along him, and by Ariel, who was also aided by Orion and one army.

    Teclis can be compared with a weakened Nagash. No mortal can be compared with the version of Nagash with all his artifacts and magic power which he wields in his prime. Maybe the three Morathi, Malekith and Teclis could be compared with a prime Nagash. Any different approach is madness.
  • xDEMOSxxDEMOSx Registered Users Posts: 1,345
    Kairos Fateweaver
    These are very fickle situations.
    Probably Nagash and Kairos fight at the same level at their peak, Kairos without being limited by the earth plane is extreme.
    Ariel and Teclis and Morathi are already of mortal power levels, but ariel that is outdated, if it was updated I think it would be much scarier.
    Miao is a hybrid power caster that is similar to Malekith, Manfred, Archeon and others, they are very powerful when you put all their powers in the balance (magic + physical + innate abilities + equipment) but seeing only raw magic, she is not of the level of others.


  • General_Hijalti#1213General_Hijalti#1213 Registered Users Posts: 5,421
    Nagash

    Celestial Dragons based on the latest lore.

    The problem with Kairos is that he's kinda of a big jobber.

    Lol no, nothing puts her anywhere near the level of these people.

  • Lord_Zarkov#7252Lord_Zarkov#7252 Registered Users Posts: 1,921
    Nagash

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Nah. Teclis would rofl stomp Morathi. Morathi has the experience but Teclis has way more raw power. Even though Morthi is way older outside of corrupting Aenarion and raising Malekith what are her accomplishments? Who has she defeated in battle?

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Malekith wasn't winning at all.

    Telcis beat Malekith, sure he used the flames but if Malekith was better then Telcis then he would have blocked it.


    Iirc it was stated that Telcis was the most powerful elven mage ever
    Not just most powerful elven mage but the 5th edition army book states him as the most powerful mage period.
    -Created Dark Magic, and by extension, necromancy. Nagash, the Tomb Kings, vampires and all the necromancers wouldn't even exist if not for Morathi's deeds.
    -Achieved immortality through this Dark Magic.
    -Rescued his son from the wrath of a god, creating a way to "resurrect" him and make him even more powerful than before, despite some immortal and goddy flames burning him constantly.
    -Guilty of the Sundering.
    -Guilty of fracturing elf society and creating the eternal conflict between the Asur and the Druchii.
    -Control of the entire Naggaroth and Malekith through manipulation and politics.
    -Corrupted Aenarion, Malekith and Tyrion.

    I'm not a big fan of Morathi, I actually hate her character and what she has done. In my opinion, she is the most evil of all the characters in the setting. However, discussing the deeds of the most catastrophic being in the setting shouldn't be subject to debate. Her deeds are only rivalled by those of Caledor or Nagash, but not Teclis. I'm not saying Teclis wouldn't be able to do as much as her... Khaine knows, maybe even more! But he is still too young.

    Oh, sure, the 5th HE Army Book states Teclis as the most powerful mage period. That can't be biased at all. No, of course not! But I don't know why am I debating this with someone who thinks Teclis is more powerful than Nagash...
    She’s probably the most *influential* character in WH for her impact on the setting, and her arcane knowledge is unparalleled but she’s not necessarily the most powerful in terms of raw power.

    Teclis and Nagash are constantly compared as being in a league of their own so clearly exceed her and she’s suffered defeats from both Malekith and Ariel.
    She wasn't defeated by Malekith nor Ariel in a magic duel. She was defeated by Malekith, who was leading an entire army along him, and by Ariel, who was also aided by Orion and one army.

    Teclis can be compared with a weakened Nagash. No mortal can be compared with the version of Nagash with all his artifacts and magic power which he wields in his prime. Maybe the three Morathi, Malekith and Teclis could be compared with a prime Nagash. Any different approach is madness.
    Agreed wrt Teclis and Nagash.

    WRT Morathi, in the Novel ‘Malekith’ she was involved in a one on one duel with Malekith. While she was probably holding back somewhat, he did defeat her (and almost killed her), albeit with *significant* assistance from the Circlet of Iron. Malekith has improved significantly since then and while Morathi has likely improved as well, probably not by as much given her already high base. She’s probably still significantly better than Malekith overall (particularly if magic items are not involved*), but probably a similar amount behind contemporary Teclis (although almost certainly still more knowledgeable), let alone Nagash.

    *Admittedly difficult in practice given the Circlet of Iron is now welded to Malekith’s face.
  • Bonutz#3949Bonutz#3949 Registered Users Posts: 5,735
    Kairos Fateweaver
    Bird up.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • Veldrinar#2882Veldrinar#2882 Registered Users Posts: 652
    Nagash



    Across ALL of Nehekhara and this was Nagash while still human and pre-warpstone. With a ritual, granted, but impressive nonetheless.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572


    Also, like in Wheel of Time, you should compare their base powers, not with all the magical stuff the use to enhance them.

    Hence, why someone like Morathi is actually much more deadlier than it seems. Pure power, no boosts except a couple of scrolls she comes with, which any other mage can bring too.

    Fay the Enchantress is pure power, and should really be taken into account. As someone else said, her last rules were 6th, and that edition really dumped down magic users, but she was a beast back then. GW just abandoned bretonnia. Her items are for protection only, not magical enhancers.

    Nagash is a weird one. His items are somehow “horrocruxes”. His innate power is much weaker than it looks like (still by far the strongest human when was alive). I prefer to cast him aside when comparing magic levels.

    Teclis is obviously boosted. But even with that, hes very cunning and powerful.

    Someone like Kairos or Miao-Ying is pure power as well. The demon being the obvious better one at magical prowess.

    Someone like Balthazar, although best currently alive human alongside Katarin (no necromancers), is way below the others. That Volans item is on its own league, very powerful boost.

    Ariel is pretty great caster as well. Not familiar with her rules, but I guess would be near Fay.

    It's interesting to consider items. In terms of actual TT rules, most of Teclis's strength actually comes from Items. The items that boost his magic are also heirlooms and have no specific connection to him other than his title. The only innate part of his magic strength is being a High Magic loremaster with +1 to cast from lileath's blessing (or getting 1 spell from each basic lore and no bonus). That makes him the elf equivalent of Balthazar Gelt, but he's either comparable to lv4 mages or Loremasters. (He is to a Loremaster what Gelt is to a regular Lv2-3 wizard but without any of the melee talent). That puts him Below Karios who's only impressive feature is that he has twice the kit of teclis but otherwise would be weaker due to Telcis having tons of magic items.

    Morathi on the other hand has no items that boost magic, it all comes from her.

    The Fay Enchantress has a few Items that boost her magic, but unlike character like Gelt and Teclis, she actually made all of her Magic items.

    You also have some characters who magical abilities don't always take the form of spells like Alarielle or the Fay Enchantress who has several abilities that aren't specified as spells.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • yolordmcswag#6132yolordmcswag#6132 Registered Users Posts: 4,259
    Nagash
    User_Clue said:


    Also, like in Wheel of Time, you should compare their base powers, not with all the magical stuff the use to enhance them.

    Hence, why someone like Morathi is actually much more deadlier than it seems. Pure power, no boosts except a couple of scrolls she comes with, which any other mage can bring too.

    Fay the Enchantress is pure power, and should really be taken into account. As someone else said, her last rules were 6th, and that edition really dumped down magic users, but she was a beast back then. GW just abandoned bretonnia. Her items are for protection only, not magical enhancers.

    Nagash is a weird one. His items are somehow “horrocruxes”. His innate power is much weaker than it looks like (still by far the strongest human when was alive). I prefer to cast him aside when comparing magic levels.

    Teclis is obviously boosted. But even with that, hes very cunning and powerful.

    Someone like Kairos or Miao-Ying is pure power as well. The demon being the obvious better one at magical prowess.

    Someone like Balthazar, although best currently alive human alongside Katarin (no necromancers), is way below the others. That Volans item is on its own league, very powerful boost.

    Ariel is pretty great caster as well. Not familiar with her rules, but I guess would be near Fay.

    It's interesting to consider items. In terms of actual TT rules, most of Teclis's strength actually comes from Items. The items that boost his magic are also heirlooms and have no specific connection to him other than his title. The only innate part of his magic strength is being a High Magic loremaster with +1 to cast from lileath's blessing (or getting 1 spell from each basic lore and no bonus). That makes him the elf equivalent of Balthazar Gelt, but he's either comparable to lv4 mages or Loremasters. (He is to a Loremaster what Gelt is to a regular Lv2-3 wizard but without any of the melee talent). That puts him Below Karios who's only impressive feature is that he has twice the kit of teclis but otherwise would be weaker due to Telcis having tons of magic items.

    Morathi on the other hand has no items that boost magic, it all comes from her.

    The Fay Enchantress has a few Items that boost her magic, but unlike character like Gelt and Teclis, she actually made all of her Magic items.

    You also have some characters who magical abilities don't always take the form of spells like Alarielle or the Fay Enchantress who has several abilities that aren't specified as spells.
    Using TT rules to determine a character's power is always dubious, and more so with mages. IMO the items and their base abilities are blended together, since no named character can be taken without their items. For example, Malekith has better strength and toughness than literally any other elf. This is not because he works out, but rather due to being a walking suit of magical armour. Yet the rules for his armour are separate from this statline.

    Also, certain items might not have had such powerful rules if they weren't wielded by that particular character. Like the crown of Nagash that has vastly different rules when worn by Azhag or Nagash. So if we use TT rules as a standard I don't think it makes sense to searate characters from their items, it will give the wrong picture.
  • #254403#254403 Registered Users Posts: 2,066
    edited April 23
    Nagash

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Nah. Teclis would rofl stomp Morathi. Morathi has the experience but Teclis has way more raw power. Even though Morthi is way older outside of corrupting Aenarion and raising Malekith what are her accomplishments? Who has she defeated in battle?

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Malekith wasn't winning at all.

    Telcis beat Malekith, sure he used the flames but if Malekith was better then Telcis then he would have blocked it.


    Iirc it was stated that Telcis was the most powerful elven mage ever
    Not just most powerful elven mage but the 5th edition army book states him as the most powerful mage period.
    -Created Dark Magic, and by extension, necromancy. Nagash, the Tomb Kings, vampires and all the necromancers wouldn't even exist if not for Morathi's deeds.
    -Achieved immortality through this Dark Magic.
    -Rescued his son from the wrath of a god, creating a way to "resurrect" him and make him even more powerful than before, despite some immortal and goddy flames burning him constantly.
    -Guilty of the Sundering.
    -Guilty of fracturing elf society and creating the eternal conflict between the Asur and the Druchii.
    -Control of the entire Naggaroth and Malekith through manipulation and politics.
    -Corrupted Aenarion, Malekith and Tyrion.

    I'm not a big fan of Morathi, I actually hate her character and what she has done. In my opinion, she is the most evil of all the characters in the setting. However, discussing the deeds of the most catastrophic being in the setting shouldn't be subject to debate. Her deeds are only rivalled by those of Caledor or Nagash, but not Teclis. I'm not saying Teclis wouldn't be able to do as much as her... Khaine knows, maybe even more! But he is still too young.

    Oh, sure, the 5th HE Army Book states Teclis as the most powerful mage period. That can't be biased at all. No, of course not! But I don't know why am I debating this with someone who thinks Teclis is more powerful than Nagash...
    She’s probably the most *influential* character in WH for her impact on the setting, and her arcane knowledge is unparalleled but she’s not necessarily the most powerful in terms of raw power.

    Teclis and Nagash are constantly compared as being in a league of their own so clearly exceed her and she’s suffered defeats from both Malekith and Ariel.
    She wasn't defeated by Malekith nor Ariel in a magic duel. She was defeated by Malekith, who was leading an entire army along him, and by Ariel, who was also aided by Orion and one army.

    Teclis can be compared with a weakened Nagash. No mortal can be compared with the version of Nagash with all his artifacts and magic power which he wields in his prime. Maybe the three Morathi, Malekith and Teclis could be compared with a prime Nagash. Any different approach is madness.
    Agreed wrt Teclis and Nagash.

    WRT Morathi, in the Novel ‘Malekith’ she was involved in a one on one duel with Malekith. While she was probably holding back somewhat, he did defeat her (and almost killed her), albeit with *significant* assistance from the Circlet of Iron. Malekith has improved significantly since then and while Morathi has likely improved as well, probably not by as much given her already high base. She’s probably still significantly better than Malekith overall (particularly if magic items are not involved*), but probably a similar amount behind contemporary Teclis (although almost certainly still more knowledgeable), let alone Nagash.

    *Admittedly difficult in practice given the Circlet of Iron is now welded to Malekith’s face.
    And again, that wasn't a normal or fair magic duel. Starting from the fact that Morathi was probably weakened from the battle, to the fact that it was Malekith, his son, the foe that she was on front of her. It's hard to believe Morathi would truly attempt to hurt or kill her son.

    And of course, the most obvious reason for this defeat is... that it wasn't a defeat. That she was manipulating her son to corrupt her, just like the Emperor did when he let Mace Windu defeat him in order to corrupt Anakin.

    We can debate about the magic power level between Teclis and Morathi, but we all can agree that Malekith is almost as powerful as those two, but not as much.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    edited April 23
    Kairos and Nagash.

    There is a pretty good effin reason for why Nagash is used as a measuring stick.

    And for those saying "Thanquol is just a Grey Seer, nothing special"... wrong... he's an extremely powerful Grey Seer.
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • rorgfist#5055rorgfist#5055 Registered Users Posts: 83
    Nagash
    Nagash by a decent margin.

    Kairos would be number 2, and most probably, Teclis at number 3.
  • Caffynated#2235Caffynated#2235 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,466
    edited April 24



    Nagash is a weird one. His items are somehow “horrocruxes”. His innate power is much weaker than it looks like (still by far the strongest human when was alive). I prefer to cast him aside when comparing magic levels.

    A horcrux is more akin to a lich phylactory.

    Nagash poured his power, soul and mind into his artifacts. They are as much a part of him as his bones and even one of his 9 books is powerful enough to make its owner a level 5 wizard (e.g. Arkhan). Nagash without his items is incomplete.

    As for the thread as a whole, it's flawed from the start. The Slann are not the super powerful beings this forum makes them out to be. Their generic lords are top tier against any other generic lord, but once named characters come into the discussion everything is up in the air as they break every rule in the BRB and then make up their own. Most of their incredible feats are also entirely reliant on using the machines left behind by the ancients to reshape the world.

    As for a power list:

    Nagash at full power (even pre-endtimes) - a world shaping character capable of impossible feats.

    Teclis in the current year. More skilled at magic than Nagash, but lacks the raw power. He has mastered every lore in ways that other casters can't even comprehend and blends them together in ways that no mortal should be able to. Even the Fay Enchantress (a demi-god) can't do the things he can.

    Kairos - has incredible knowledge of magic after an eternity of study and has nearly as much ability to control multiple winds as Teclis (though in a different way and with more limits)

    Mazd - a loremaster of every wind and High magic with his own book of cheat codes.

    Morathi - has the raw magical power to rival Nagash, but is less dedicated to total mastery.

    Mannfred - a highly specialized wizard, but one who has total mastery of his field and is a walking conduit for the winds of magic that make him nearly unrivaled in raw magical power available to him.

    The Fay Enchantress - a master (though not Loremaster) of every wind of magic.

    There is a steep drop off after these, starting with Arkhan (with his book of Nagash).

  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572

    User_Clue said:


    Also, like in Wheel of Time, you should compare their base powers, not with all the magical stuff the use to enhance them.

    Hence, why someone like Morathi is actually much more deadlier than it seems. Pure power, no boosts except a couple of scrolls she comes with, which any other mage can bring too.

    Fay the Enchantress is pure power, and should really be taken into account. As someone else said, her last rules were 6th, and that edition really dumped down magic users, but she was a beast back then. GW just abandoned bretonnia. Her items are for protection only, not magical enhancers.

    Nagash is a weird one. His items are somehow “horrocruxes”. His innate power is much weaker than it looks like (still by far the strongest human when was alive). I prefer to cast him aside when comparing magic levels.

    Teclis is obviously boosted. But even with that, hes very cunning and powerful.

    Someone like Kairos or Miao-Ying is pure power as well. The demon being the obvious better one at magical prowess.

    Someone like Balthazar, although best currently alive human alongside Katarin (no necromancers), is way below the others. That Volans item is on its own league, very powerful boost.

    Ariel is pretty great caster as well. Not familiar with her rules, but I guess would be near Fay.

    It's interesting to consider items. In terms of actual TT rules, most of Teclis's strength actually comes from Items. The items that boost his magic are also heirlooms and have no specific connection to him other than his title. The only innate part of his magic strength is being a High Magic loremaster with +1 to cast from lileath's blessing (or getting 1 spell from each basic lore and no bonus). That makes him the elf equivalent of Balthazar Gelt, but he's either comparable to lv4 mages or Loremasters. (He is to a Loremaster what Gelt is to a regular Lv2-3 wizard but without any of the melee talent). That puts him Below Karios who's only impressive feature is that he has twice the kit of teclis but otherwise would be weaker due to Telcis having tons of magic items.

    Morathi on the other hand has no items that boost magic, it all comes from her.

    The Fay Enchantress has a few Items that boost her magic, but unlike character like Gelt and Teclis, she actually made all of her Magic items.

    You also have some characters who magical abilities don't always take the form of spells like Alarielle or the Fay Enchantress who has several abilities that aren't specified as spells.
    Using TT rules to determine a character's power is always dubious, and more so with mages. IMO the items and their base abilities are blended together, since no named character can be taken without their items. For example, Malekith has better strength and toughness than literally any other elf. This is not because he works out, but rather due to being a walking suit of magical armour. Yet the rules for his armour are separate from this statline.

    Also, certain items might not have had such powerful rules if they weren't wielded by that particular character. Like the crown of Nagash that has vastly different rules when worn by Azhag or Nagash. So if we use TT rules as a standard I don't think it makes sense to searate characters from their items, it will give the wrong picture.
    I'm not sure what your talking with the Crown of Sorcery, because Nagash has never used the item in game to my knowledge, so it has no unique rules for him. The Crown also jacks up Azhag to a level 3 wizard which makes it one of the most powerful arcane items in the game.

    The Malekith example isn't that relevant because it's one of the very rare magic items in the game that are physically part of the owner's body and has nothing to do with his ability to use magic. The Staff of Volans isn't any different in Gelt's hand than it is in the generations of wizards who have used it before him. Even if it somehow is, then we still know what he looks like without it. Teclis isn't much different. His Arcane items are things that lore masters have used in the past. They were all given to him and you can definitely remove them from his profile because they are very clearly separate items. Without those Items, he is inferior to Kairos.



    Nagash is a weird one. His items are somehow “horrocruxes”. His innate power is much weaker than it looks like (still by far the strongest human when was alive). I prefer to cast him aside when comparing magic levels.

    Kairos - has incredible knowledge of magic after an eternity of study and has nearly as much ability to control multiple winds as Teclis (though in a different way and with more limits)
    Kairos technically knows everything, so it's theoretically not possible to be a more a knowledgeable wizard than him. He's also as good or better at using multiple winds because he and Teclis can both take spells from any lore, but Kairos can mix them more freely and he's also a loremaster of Tzeentch.

    Any Slaan can also be a Loremasters of High magic which puts them at a similar level as Teclis, but they can swap spells around for any other spell from other lores during a battle, which is something Teclis can't do. You can start a battle with all 8 High magic spells and end the battle with one spell from each lore. Teclis has to do either or. At the very least, a generic Slaan should be a match for Teclis.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • Beytran70#7597Beytran70#7597 Registered Users Posts: 383
    Nagash
    Nagash was on the verge of unmaking the world and remaking it in undeath, that's pretty hard to beat for even the most powerful Slann (although their greatest feats were accomplished with the help of the Old Ones and are not as powerful anymore).

    Kairos is probably up there and is certainly the most knowledgeable, but I think not being able to see "presently" is a big dampener on using magic in a practical sense.

    Miao Ying and Ariel are probably on similar levels being gods/demigods.

    Morathi and Teclis are probably close, but on a lower level than the above ones, at least in the main Warhammer fantasy lore. Pretty sure Morathi turns into a god in Age of Sigmar or something which is crazy.
  • Sultschiem#8734Sultschiem#8734 Registered Users Posts: 3,499
    edited April 24
    Veldrinar said:




    Across ALL of Nehekhara and this was Nagash while still human and pre-warpstone. With a ritual, granted, but impressive nonetheless.

    Meh. In Shamanslayer a random Bray Shaman was about to cast a ritual, turning everyone inside of Reikwald into a Beastman....
  • #62422#62422 Registered Users Posts: 366
    Nagash

    Veldrinar said:




    Across ALL of Nehekhara and this was Nagash while still human and pre-warpstone. With a ritual, granted, but impressive nonetheless.

    Meh. In Shamanslayer a random Bray Shaman was about to cast a ritual, turning everyone inside of Reikwald into a Beastman....
    Which is like 1000th of the size and probably even more than a 1000th less populated.
  • #62422#62422 Registered Users Posts: 366
    Nagash
    Op can we get a "best swordsman of each race" or something similar to this. This fun lore discussion stuff is why we should be here as a community and I feel you can use your pizaz to give us a good breakdown on the shortlist of characters.
  • Guillermidas#6283Guillermidas#6283 MadridRegistered Users Posts: 497
    Nagash

    Op can we get a "best swordsman of each race" or something similar to this. This fun lore discussion stuff is why we should be here as a community and I feel you can use your pizaz to give us a good breakdown on the shortlist of characters.

    Easy, Jaime Lannister!
    "It's small, filthy and noisy. H! Just like a dwarf!"
  • #62422#62422 Registered Users Posts: 366
    Nagash

    Op can we get a "best swordsman of each race" or something similar to this. This fun lore discussion stuff is why we should be here as a community and I feel you can use your pizaz to give us a good breakdown on the shortlist of characters.

    Easy, Jaime Lannister!
    Vs Felix Jaeger. Felix would **** Jamie Lannister up.
  • rorgfist#5055rorgfist#5055 Registered Users Posts: 83
    Nagash
    Im unsure about morathi having the same raw power of nagash when he was still fully human.

    But she sure as hell is leagues below undead nagash, even before the warpstone enhancements.
  • #62422#62422 Registered Users Posts: 366
    Nagash
    Vykos said:

    Im unsure about morathi having the same raw power of nagash when he was still fully human.

    But she sure as hell is leagues below undead nagash, even before the warpstone enhancements.

    I don't know about that. She became a god too, it took her a bit longer sure but she is legitimately on his level now.
  • Artjuh90Artjuh90 Registered Users Posts: 1,697
    Kairos Fateweaver
    Yannir said:

    Artjuh90 said:

    Kairos beats any slann. There is a reason why the lizards almost got wiped at the first chaos invasion. when you have mazda mundi level of power and you still get **** you know it is not just sheer numbers

    "Sheer numbers" isn't being fair to the Lizardmen. It was way more than that. They weren't outnumbered 2 to 1, or 10 to 1, or even 1,000,000 to 1. They were outnumbered infinity to 1. A truly endless horde of immortal daemons. Even the Chaos Gods themselves couldn't withstand that for long if they ever were on the receiving end.

    I don't necessarily think Teclis is the "most powerful" per se but I do think he would beat all the others here in a 1v1. But not because he's the strongest but because he's the smartest. Minds beat muscles, even if it is magical muscles.
    Then why do the skaven still lose vs a heavily weakend lizardmen. they are no were near the power of the lizardmen in the great catastrophe and their numbers are also even called unnumberd. yes they do have infighting but they do sometimes tag up for a few days or so and still they can't un the lizards over
  • HisShadowBG#8316HisShadowBG#8316 Registered Users Posts: 3,437
    Morathi

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Nah. Teclis would rofl stomp Morathi. Morathi has the experience but Teclis has way more raw power. Even though Morthi is way older outside of corrupting Aenarion and raising Malekith what are her accomplishments? Who has she defeated in battle?

    Morathi is always underestimated.

    She is pretty much the “precursor” of 5 factions, as the founder of dark magic, and instigator of early chaos into the world.

    She might take everyone else in a magical duel, except maybe Teclis.

    But if we talk about raw power, with all the items and buffs they can add, Nagash wins this poll. No brainer.


    Without buffs, only innate power, i’d give that to Kairos, Teclis or Morathi.

    In a magic duel Morathi would win against Teclis with ease. Teclis has the potential to become the most powerful wizard Ulthuan has known since Caledor himself, but we must remember he is still a "young" wizard some centuries old. Malekith was winning the famous duel Teclis won until Teclis used the magic inside Malekith's burning flames against himself.

    I have no doubt that, with experience and some more centuries or millennia, Teclis will become even more powerful than Morathi if she doesn't grow in power... but right now, Teclis wouldn't win that duel.

    It's not even fair.
    Malekith wasn't winning at all.

    Telcis beat Malekith, sure he used the flames but if Malekith was better then Telcis then he would have blocked it.


    Iirc it was stated that Telcis was the most powerful elven mage ever
    Not just most powerful elven mage but the 5th edition army book states him as the most powerful mage period.
    -Created Dark Magic, and by extension, necromancy. Nagash, the Tomb Kings, vampires and all the necromancers wouldn't even exist if not for Morathi's deeds.
    -Achieved immortality through this Dark Magic.
    -Rescued his son from the wrath of a god, creating a way to "resurrect" him and make him even more powerful than before, despite some immortal and goddy flames burning him constantly.
    -Guilty of the Sundering.
    -Guilty of fracturing elf society and creating the eternal conflict between the Asur and the Druchii.
    -Control of the entire Naggaroth and Malekith through manipulation and politics.
    -Corrupted Aenarion, Malekith and Tyrion.

    I'm not a big fan of Morathi, I actually hate her character and what she has done. In my opinion, she is the most evil of all the characters in the setting. However, discussing the deeds of the most catastrophic being in the setting shouldn't be subject to debate. Her deeds are only rivalled by those of Caledor or Nagash, but not Teclis. I'm not saying Teclis wouldn't be able to do as much as her... Khaine knows, maybe even more! But he is still too young.

    Oh, sure, the 5th HE Army Book states Teclis as the most powerful mage period. That can't be biased at all. No, of course not! But I don't know why am I debating this with someone who thinks Teclis is more powerful than Nagash...
    She’s probably the most *influential* character in WH for her impact on the setting, and her arcane knowledge is unparalleled but she’s not necessarily the most powerful in terms of raw power.

    Teclis and Nagash are constantly compared as being in a league of their own so clearly exceed her and she’s suffered defeats from both Malekith and Ariel.
    She wasn't defeated by Malekith nor Ariel in a magic duel. She was defeated by Malekith, who was leading an entire army along him, and by Ariel, who was also aided by Orion and one army.

    Teclis can be compared with a weakened Nagash. No mortal can be compared with the version of Nagash with all his artifacts and magic power which he wields in his prime. Maybe the three Morathi, Malekith and Teclis could be compared with a prime Nagash. Any different approach is madness.
    Agreed wrt Teclis and Nagash.

    WRT Morathi, in the Novel ‘Malekith’ she was involved in a one on one duel with Malekith. While she was probably holding back somewhat, he did defeat her (and almost killed her), albeit with *significant* assistance from the Circlet of Iron. Malekith has improved significantly since then and while Morathi has likely improved as well, probably not by as much given her already high base. She’s probably still significantly better than Malekith overall (particularly if magic items are not involved*), but probably a similar amount behind contemporary Teclis (although almost certainly still more knowledgeable), let alone Nagash.

    *Admittedly difficult in practice given the Circlet of Iron is now welded to Malekith’s face.
    Morathi has owned Teclis with a magical trap so Morathi > Teclis

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • NemoTheElf101#1472NemoTheElf101#1472 Registered Users Posts: 2,995
    It's difficult to accurately gauge mages because one of the rules of magic is there are no rules, or at least hard and fast ones. There are rituals, types of magic, pacts, divine and demonic intervention, factors of intelligence, how the Winds of Magic are acting, and the needs of the plot. It's extremely subjective on racial as well as individual ability, and it's much easier to get an idea on their limitations than their strengths.

    1. Nagash is a borderline deity whose near-apotheosis altered the world, and is inventor of necromancy and by proxy, vampirism. However, he's been almost entirely ineffectual after his banishment, and can only influence the world through his agents. Until he reforms, he's really not that much of a threat, but he's arguably the most direct of the list. There's also the fact that while it would be extremely difficult, he could be banished and disembodied again should Nagash resurrect.
    2. Morathi is an undying mistress of dark magic, functionally the precursor to Nagash. She undoubtedly knows things others have forgotten and is also empowered by both Elven and Chairs gods. However, and this is more my impression from her role in the setting, Morathi seems to focus more on her schemes and luxury than magical power. Whenever she appears, she's either lounging about or plotting, which, to me, kind of indicates that she's hit her threshold. Dhar is ultimately corruption, and she can only partition so much of her soul. Morathi is undoubtedly one of the most dangerous mages, period, but after six thousand plus years of study, schemes, and sacrifice, there's only so much you can still learn, and your list of pacts get shorter.
    3. Ariel is a living avatar of Isha, as well as a power practitioner of High and Dark Magic. With her connection to Athel Loren, she can go anywhere and potentially have an endless source of magic. The problem of course, is that she's dependent on the forest for her power -- it's hard to tell if her magic is her own talent or derived from Athel Loren. Plus, her dalliance with Dark Magic is still negatively impacting her ability and relationship with Athel Loren to the point of putting the entire forest at risk, and since then has stopped delving into magical study for her own sanity. In her own realm, she's unstoppable, but when she leaves the forest, her ability is debatable depending on the circumstances.
    4. Kairos is a greater demon, so while his influence over the Winds is ahead above the rest, his capacity to influence the mortal world is equally contingent on being able to manifest within it. Plus that's not touching his standing in Tzeentch's plans, the fact he's supernaturally insane, or that he's going to be spending most of his time within the Realm of Chaos in various plots. Plus, being that he is a demon, any sufficiently powerful mage could banish him. He'd be almost unstoppable if there's enough raw magic around, but it's infrequent as the Winds are unpredictable.
    5. Teclis is the best High Elf Archmage in living memory, and his only point of reference is either Morathi, Nagash, and Caledor. He's already the head of all High Elven magi and the founder of the Empire's Colleges of Magic. His only real handicap is the fact he's chronically ill and uses the Moon Staff of Lileath as both an augmentation to his ability and as an actual crutch. I agree with other posters that he's the most promising being the youngest out of the list.
    6. Miao Ying is hard to get because we don't know much about her or her ability. We didn't even know that dragons could use magic before.
  • Asamu#6386Asamu#6386 Registered Users Posts: 1,548
    Nagash
    Really, this contest is between Nagash, Kairos, and maybe Morathi or Teclis.
    Nagash probably has to take it though. He founded an entire school of magic, and the aftermath of one of his spell being disrupted due to his assassination is still in effect thousands of years after the fact.

    Kairos’s ability lies less in raw power than in flexibility.

    Mannfred actually might take it over everyone on the list except Nagash. By TT rules, he was a step up on pretty much everyone else in magic, with 2 full lores at his disposal and multiple other bonuses to casting.

    Teclis is notable as having the most potential, and is certainly able to compete, especially getting into his actions in the end-times binding the winds of magic to people(which might put him at #2), but I just don’t see him on the same level as Nagash, who was a global threat basically whenever he showed up.

    Miao Ying there just isn’t enough lore about to say anything yet.
  • #254403#254403 Registered Users Posts: 2,066
    Nagash
    Asamu said:

    Really, this contest is between Nagash, Kairos, and maybe Morathi or Teclis.
    Nagash probably has to take it though. He founded an entire school of magic, and the aftermath of one of his spell being disrupted due to his assassination is still in effect thousands of years after the fact.

    Kairos’s ability lies less in raw power than in flexibility.

    Mannfred actually might take it over everyone on the list except Nagash. By TT rules, he was a step up on pretty much everyone else in magic, with 2 full lores at his disposal and multiple other bonuses to casting.

    Teclis is notable as having the most potential, and is certainly able to compete, especially getting into his actions in the end-times binding the winds of magic to people(which might put him at #2), but I just don’t see him on the same level as Nagash, who was a global threat basically whenever he showed up.

    Miao Ying there just isn’t enough lore about to say anything yet.

    Technically speaking, Nagash didn't create an entire school of magic. Necromancy is Dhar. Necromancy existed long before Nagash, thanks to Morathi. His ultimate achievement wasn't his magic spells. There are two vital points where, in my opinion, Nagash demonstrates why he is above any other magic wielder in the setting, slann included:

    1. He wasn't even able to wield magic at first. He learned the fundamentals of magic from the famous Druchii slaves who agreed to teach him magic in exchange for their freedom. Against all odds, he was able to not only understand magic, but to wield it. This isn't something too strange in normal mortals with magic affinity or ability to wield magic, but Nagash wasn't able to do so. Basically, it's like Karl Franz learning to wield magic out of pure will.
    2. The last but most important deed accomplished by Nagash wasn't his inventionts. Not even the Black Pyramid. Not even the Great Ritual where he almost bounded an entire race to his will... No. His ultimate deed, where he shows that all the rest of magic wielders are uninventive kids playing to be mages was to achieve true immortality. And I don't mean his armor or crown. Some others have mentioned his famous Horcruxes, but no one has signaled how the very Shysh, the Purple Wind of Magic, is actually a Nagash's Horcrux. And any magic wielder who dares to use this wind knows that there is a presence corrupting him or her each that this wind is used without wards or caution.

    There is no debate. Nagash is on the level of the most powerful Slann. Maybe even more. Mortal mages, and even immortal mages like Morathi can't be compared with this monster. The last time he was in his prime, the entire Skavendom had to unite against him in order to survive. As far as I know, this is the only event when this has happened.
  • Maedrethnir#1968Maedrethnir#1968 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 17,221
    edited April 26


    6. Miao Ying is hard to get because we don't know much about her or her ability. We didn't even know that dragons could use magic before.

    Dragons could use magic in the War of the Beard list in White Dwarf, and Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum supplements.
    Post edited by Maedrethnir#1968 on
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909
    edited April 27
    Kairos Fateweaver


    6. Miao Ying is hard to get because we don't know much about her or her ability. We didn't even know that dragons could use magic before.

    Dragons could use magic in the War of the Beard list in White Dwarf, and Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum supplements.
    Once again someone gets a disagree because someone else doesn't like the truth. In 6th edition there was a list for playing the war of the beard scenario in which a dragon ridden by a lord can take a level to be a wizard and cast fire spells.

    In Monstrous Arcanium, pages 30 and 83, Emperor Dragons of the Carmine variety can be wizards which can cast death magic and Emperor Dragons of the Magma variety can become wizards to cast fire spells.

    Storms of magic, page 121, Nightmare Dragons, Doomfire Dragons, Ice Dragons, Venom Dragons, Great Storm Dragons could all become wizards to cast spells from specific lores.

    Edit: I tried to type my initial response on the phone and it needed fixing to make it more readable.
    Post edited by Erminaz on
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
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