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Was 8 Princes really the Kiss of Death that some people thought it was for 3K?

GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,527
Personally I always thought what killed the game was the ****y DLCs that just took existing characters you could already play and spruce them up with new bells and whistles. Units introduced if any were all just more dudes in different clothes, which admittedly is really all you can add in a highly constrained historical title.

8 Princes took place in a lesser known period of history a bit after 3Ks time period yada yada, but it's only real sin is the same sin shared most other 3K DLCs, it really didn't add anything substantially new the same way Warhammer's DLCs could add, say, nuclear bombs, the game's largest monster, ghorgons, etc. A lot of fans of Total War Warhammer barely know Warhammer. There's probably about as much people who knew who Grom or Eltharion was as historical fans knew who Sima Wei was, but they saw lion pulled chariots and giant rock golem and bought it in an instant. That's what 3K DLCs lacked imo, and was the real reason the game's abandoned.


There's only one 3K DLC I recall looking good and that was The Furious Wild which added Nanman, which was an actually new Faction with visually unique units.

Comments

  • united84united84 Registered Users Posts: 1,124
    Why TW3K was abandoned, that is open to speculation. My personal opinion is that DLC wasnt the biggest issue. They left a small post launch content team, hence it makes sense that the quality & value will never match that of TWW's DLCs.

    On the other hand, SEGA is probably looking to milk Epic's cash handout with this sequel. Hence, the abandonment.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,820
    It sent the wrong message BUT it wasn't the Kiss of Death.

    The death of 3K cames from multiple factors that piled in at the wrong time. Covid, probably Brexit (removed from all the political aspects, it makes the UK into a de-facto less attractive place to go for foreign talent), overall lack of staffing - coupled with the two things I mentionned before creating a situation where you can't address this quickly as well * with perhaps some other issues linked to the team organisation (we have no info on this so we can only speculate however)

    Chapter Packs - different start dates DLC were NOT the problem : 3K sorta hit its "regular" player peak between the release of Mandate of Heaven and A World Betrayed. Furious Wild didn't have the effect some people thought it would have ("It'll save the sales, you'll see", nope didn't bring back the players) - but they are symptomatic of the issue CA had with releasing what felt good content without falling into predatory practices of the TWWH branch (such as gating core features of the game behind DLC ownership).

    The biggest issues were (and still are) - in no particular order :
    - The amount of bugs (playerbase melted in a period where we had some severe issues and we didn't get a patch to fix them as patches only release with DLC - which is imho VERY bad) - with some special issues where CA pretty much killed some campaigns with bugs / save corruption (also because people can't read warnings and/or use their heads)

    - CA immediately killed the MP Ranked ladder because of the Romance-only approach. Coupled with the initial exploits & bugs (and when I tried playing a quick game - well after game release - the thing seemed buggy as all hell with me not being able to change my army comp for exemple, so definitely not an enjoyable experience)

    - Unit visual diversity : That's criticism usually coming from R2/WH fans, it's a non-issue for me but hey, some people really are into superficial things so I'm just going to put it there. However I do think some of the design decisions CA took went against a more "organic" approach to army compositions (such as Sun Ce getting a +100% charge bonus for his cavalry when - being a southern lord - he should have inferior cav)

    - The CEO system, a core system meant to improve character/ancillary management simply is an issue for modding. There is little to no doubt it works really well but it lacks parameters and it just doesn't have any flexibility (you pretty much cannot run two mods with ceo edits in them, pretty much like a startpos except ceos are much more encompassing)

    - The communication : This one is probably the trickiest thing because there simply isn't a fix. It's a very complex issue with multiple factors in play (both with base level communication from CA and the advanced dialog over more complex issues such as balance). Tl;dr is : we're basically in a non-communicating phase (which is not to say CA do not listen to us, they are just typically not expressing it directly but instead do it through acts) and I believe it's hurting the game (however it may remove a lot - and I mean a lot - of stress from the team which would imho be the only acceptable reason for said lack of communication)





    Finally the death of 3K was simply a marketing decision. TW games are typically supported for 2 years before the team moves on, 3K 2 years were technically up even if external factors slowed down the speed at which CA could work on the game. Creating a new game altogether would also allow CA to go back to the drawing board on some of the issues players raised but they couldn't address in 3K because of platform limitations.
    3K sold a ton, so definitely it wasn't a disaster for CA/SEGA. 3K2 may be a different story however.
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 1,306
    It was a significant problem because it was poorly thought out. 3K fans want more 3K content and a lot was still missing from the base game at the time. But it was illogical for wider Total War fans. It was an obscure period of history only tangentially related to 3K and didn't suit the Romance mode well.

    If they went for a time period like Xiang Yu and Liu Bang then it may have been more successful for Total War fans.

  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,527

    It was a significant problem because it was poorly thought out. 3K fans want more 3K content and a lot was still missing from the base game at the time. But it was illogical for wider Total War fans. It was an obscure period of history only tangentially related to 3K and didn't suit the Romance mode well.

    If they went for a time period like Xiang Yu and Liu Bang then it may have been more successful for Total War fans.

    This kinda begs the question though, how many TW3K fans are honestly even 3K fans vs how many are just TW/RTS fans who just wants to send thousands of men to their gruesome deaths. Like I'm sure TW3K made a few people become interested in 3K or atleast Dynasty Warriors, but how many cared at a level where 8 Princes would bother them.

    To use WH as a comparison...a lot of the fanbase only cares about it as a TW game with monsters and magic, a lot barely knows what WH was beyond that "IP Blizzard flagrantly rips off". So when you get to, say, Throgg, you can tell the difference between a TW fantasy fan and a WH fan by their reaction to how CA botched Throgg's implementation. The lay player see big stupid monster act like big stupid monster, whereas WH fans saw what was essentially Beast from X-Men turned into the Hulk. The classic dumb Hulk that is.
    Rewan said:



    - CA immediately killed the MP Ranked ladder because of the Romance-only approach. Coupled with the initial exploits & bugs (and when I tried playing a quick game - well after game release - the thing seemed buggy as all hell with me not being able to change my army comp for exemple, so definitely not an enjoyable experience)

    Oh definitely this as well

    As much as certain sections of the TW playerbase bury their heads to deny it, a competitive multiplayer scene is vital for any RTS to stay alive and successful in the long term. If a game's competitive scene is entertaining and fun enough, a game can stay alive well after a dev stops updating it, case in point, StarCraft Broodwar and Warcraft 3.

    People pretend like YouTubers don't matter, but those guys are free advertisements and canaries for a game's health. TWWH is able to thrive in-between content cycles thanks to Rubber Duck, Turin, Milk and Cookies consistent exposure of the game. These guys are also canaries for interest in the games. Take myself, I've been watching Turins videos long before finally buying TWWH.

    So when you see these YouTubers drop the game in a week or so after its release, well there's not a whole lot to keep the game in public consciousness.
    Rewan said:


    - Unit visual diversity : That's criticism usually coming from R2/WH fans, it's a non-issue for me but hey, some people really are into superficial things so I'm just going to put it there. However I do think some of the design decisions CA took went against a more "organic" approach to army compositions (such as Sun Ce getting a +100% charge bonus for his cavalry when - being a southern lord - he should have inferior cav)

    It extends beyond TW, but visual clarity is important not just as eye candy (which is huge in itself), but also for snap judgement and readability.

    Think about what the biggest RTS are. StarCraft 's Terran/Protoss/Zergs or WC3's HU/NE/UD/OR, all wildly different factions with clear identity and themes
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,820
    It extends beyond TW, but visual clarity is important not just as eye candy (which is huge in itself)


    Visual clarity is absolutely important. But this is not a problem in 3K for the most part since the unit rosters are standardized.

    Now I do get people saying that Sabre Infantry recruited in the south should not look exactly the same as one recruited in the north. But I disagree, actually based on the principles of clarity. Attila was a mess for me because you couldn't tell at a glance which armor a unit would use (like early game Roman units would use both regular and heavy mail for exemple).

    And based on this I'd rather have a minimalistic unit roster. 3K unit rosters are imho fine.
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 2,179
    Still **** me off when i think about it. Hope we will see medieval remastered soon or even better medieval3. Looking for some new historical content.
  • Vin362Vin362 Registered Users Posts: 1,491
    edited April 25
    As a Three Kingdoms fan I have already given my opinion on the divide between what Total War fans wanted vs what Three Kingdoms expected, yes I was annoyed with the Eight Princes being the first DLC as I felt it was too soon I actually thought it was a fine mini-campaign. In my opinion I think the problem came from how slow patches were released (something Warhammer 3 is going through now) and the same bugs kept popping back up after being told they were fixed didn't encourage more people to buy DLC.
    Post edited by Vin362 on
    Supporter of Shu-Han, I wish Total War Three Kingdoms had a Three Kingdoms start date, rider of Kislev, admiral of The Awakened and Elector Count of Shu-Han
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 1,097
    edited April 25
    The release of 8P as the first DLC only shows that they didn't know what they were doing. They thought the game is good enough upon release and 8P is proof that they were moving on.

    It only shows CA's lack of knowledge of the subject matter and how they've vastly underestimated the topic and scope of the Three Kingdoms as well as the expectations of the fans.

    It was only upon receiving the fan feedback on the lack of content, characters, historical accuracy and the obvious mistakes and bugs when the game was first released that they back tracked and tried to fix the game but it ultimately wasn't enough.

    No number of DLCs is going to save the game practically destroyed by bugs, engine limitations and ultimately CA's shortsighted-ness. They'd have to redo it from scratch. That's why they're going ahead with TW3K2 (hopefully with double or triple the resources).
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 1,097
    Bugs and Chapter packs/DLC goes hand in hand. With every DLC adds another layer of complexity on the linear narrative which I believe multiplies every existing bug issues. Each DLC adds content but worsens the bug problem. It simply isn't sustainable, and actually works against the game and gaming experiences. I suspect this is one of the reason why they'd rather cut TW3K loose and work on TW3K2 instead now that they've learnt some good lessons from TW3K.
  • Zilong_93Zilong_93 Registered Users Posts: 125
    Seeing how they **** up right now with Warhammer 3...if they lose Games Workshop license I will say karma ****, you deserve it.
  • united84united84 Registered Users Posts: 1,124
    kaihoo said:

    Bugs and Chapter packs/DLC goes hand in hand. With every DLC adds another layer of complexity on the linear narrative which I believe multiplies every existing bug issues. Each DLC adds content but worsens the bug problem. It simply isn't sustainable, and actually works against the game and gaming experiences. I suspect this is one of the reason why they'd rather cut TW3K loose and work on TW3K2 instead now that they've learnt some good lessons from TW3K.

    Two questions,

    1. Was the recurring bug, an issue with the base game or was it the incompetence of Jack's team. If it is the later, then the sequel will be equally doomed. I used to think it is the former but judging how the base game mechanic, diplomacy and other features were done properly (3K had one of the best TW launch to date) & how bad post-content were, I strongly believe Jack's team is inexperienced.

    2. Are they going to charge USD 40 - 50 for a game with the same time period, same units, same campaign map with minor touchups. It will be super hard to justify that.

    I hope they strike a deal with EGS to make TW3K2 free, like Troy. I already wasted USD 60 on TWW3 which I only played for 50 hours because the rift mechanic sux and Cathay's map got cut off lol.

  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,820
    I hope they strike a deal with EGS to make TW3K2 free,


    I hope not because that would mean I get the game for the full price and after 1 year lmao. At that point I would seriously wash my hands of TW.
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 1,097
    united84 said:


    Two questions,

    Inexperience is not an acceptable excuse for a game studio like Creative Assembly. If its a total reboot and massive improvement then I don't have any issues paying for it. But It first has to be worth it. I've no regrets at all buying TW3K at $50.

    Going down the Troy route will be far worse. Troy is a saga developed by a smaller studio with far lesser resources. Doing that to the next 3K title would be a total insult to TW3K and the fans
  • Pat_MillerPat_Miller Registered Users Posts: 40
    Despite all the critics that have been made on the Chapter packs (and I actually agree with many of them), I think we have to admit it was an interesting path to dig to prolong historical TW games experience, even though 3K is not properly historical.
    Now, we know that it does not work so well if they cover too small time intervals because they share too many factions and characters. But they could be a solution if used cautiously and with parsimony.
  • ScyvhScyvh Registered Users Posts: 88
    Rewan said:

    It sent the wrong message BUT it wasn't the Kiss of Death.
    - The communication : This one is probably the trickiest thing because there simply isn't a fix. It's a very complex issue with multiple factors in play (both with base level communication from CA and the advanced dialog over more complex issues such as balance). Tl;dr is : we're basically in a non-communicating phase (which is not to say CA do not listen to us, they are just typically not expressing it directly but instead do it through acts) and I believe it's hurting the game (however it may remove a lot - and I mean a lot - of stress from the team which would imho be the only acceptable reason for said lack of communication)

    What Rewan says here. Looking only at myself, I bought the game and each dlc immediately at release (except for eight princes), hoping it would signal support for more dlc. Most of those dlc came with weird bugs at their release (Lu Zhi's books not working; Nanman with invisible weapons), with no response to bug reports. I did not buy the final dlc (fates divided) anymore because I had learned my lesson.
    Please sign & share the petition to save Three Kingdoms
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