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Daemons vs human weapons in Warhammer

PraiseSigmawPraiseSigmaw Forlì, ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 3,059
Am i the only one who calls BS at Daemons getting hurt by un-enchanted conventional weaponry in Warhammer? They are supposed to be the ultimate otherworldy enemy yet a reginent of basic swordsmen can kill them?

Comments

  • NVNMNVNM Registered Users Posts: 210
    Basic Empire halberdiers have STR 4 dude. The same as a Space Marine in Power Armor.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 2,049
    They're otherwordly but when they cross over they manifest physical bodies that can get hurt, they aren't like ethereal units.
  • mecanojavi99#6562mecanojavi99#6562 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 10,748
    They still have physical bodies that can be destroyed.
    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
    - Anonymous
  • Heretical_Cactus#7598Heretical_Cactus#7598 Registered Users Posts: 2,734
    Uagrim said:

    They're otherwordly but when they cross over they manifest physical bodies that can get hurt, they aren't like ethereal units.

    Yes but no but yes

    Deamon have a weird instability/ethereal rule, where depending on the ambient wind they can be in tune (Becoming stronger/faster) or out of tune (ethereal, and weaker/stupider) with the winds

    Now ethereal, be it spirits or Deamon can in most occasion be killed/destroyed, but it's more difficult with a normal weapon (Magical weapon can kill a Deamon/Ghost as if it was a regular human (Though in most case the Deamon will just find itself in the Chaaos Realm, like a ritual, a deamonic/divine intervention)

    So in most case you can kill the deamon or send it back
  • lcmiraclelcmiracle Registered Users Posts: 901
    edited May 4
    arthadaw said:

    Uagrim said:

    They're otherwordly but when they cross over they manifest physical bodies that can get hurt, they aren't like ethereal units.

    Yes but no but yes

    Deamon have a weird instability/ethereal rule, where depending on the ambient wind they can be in tune (Becoming stronger/faster) or out of tune (ethereal, and weaker/stupider) with the winds

    Now ethereal, be it spirits or Deamon can in most occasion be killed/destroyed, but it's more difficult with a normal weapon (Magical weapon can kill a Deamon/Ghost as if it was a regular human (Though in most case the Deamon will just find itself in the Chaaos Realm, like a ritual, a deamonic/divine intervention)

    So in most case you can kill the deamon or send it back
    So in the earlier edition -- I'm talking about pre-6th edition, Daemons are described in Chaos (4th edition) and Realm of Chaos (5E army book) as:

    "They can only exist in the real world if magically sustained, and even then their existence is vulnerable. When the power of Chaos grows strong magical power builds up in the Warhammer World allowing daemons to manifest themselves." (Chaos, 4th edition, pg. 39)"

    and:

    "Daemons are not physical, mortal creatures in any sense: they are formed of psychic energy with such a ferocious will that they can sustain a physical form moulded of the raw stuff of Chaos. They are capable of withstanding all kinds of damage and shrugging off the most horrifying wounds. Poisons do not harm Daemons and they need no food, air, or rest to sustain themselves." (Realm of Chaos, 5th edition, pg. 16)

    These translated to a 4+ ARMOUR save -- meaning, yes, high strength or armour penetrating attacks can reduce it. However, it did not protect Daemons from magical melee weapons -- though it did, for whatever reason, work against spells. Still, it implies they were vulnerable to magic.

    The bit from Realm of Chaos is confusing, perhaps it was intended to state that the true form of Daemons are not physical, but they do inhibit/conjur a physical form in the mortal realm out of magic. This is in contrast to the Undead ethereal units, such as the wraiths, which were specifically mentioned in the Realm of Chaos as being able to be attacked by the Daemon's due to their magical Daemonic Attack rule. So I think it was intended that the Daemons worked differently from incorporeal spirits.


    Chaos. 4th edition. pg. 39

    Realm of Chaos. 5th edition. pg. 64


    In 7th edition and 8th edition, that was changed to "Daemonic Aura", being a sub-rule of the "Daemonic" special rule, that grants a 5+ WARD SAVE, which is said to be "physical and mystical protection of their diabolical masters." (7th, pg. 39) and "All Daemons enjoy the physical and mystical protection that fluctuates with the Winds of Magic." (8th, pg. 28). In 8th edition that ward save start at 5+ and can change as the game proceedes. The daemons in 8E were still subject to the winds of magic, just not weak to enchantments anymore.

    So sounds to me, certainly, the daemonic forms in the mortal plane are physical, in a way -- or else there's no need for any physical protection in the first place.
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 2,713
    NVNM said:

    Basic Empire halberdiers have STR 4 dude. The same as a Space Marine in Power Armor.

    Take a space marine out of his power armor and he loses in an arm wrestling match with the unaugmented halberdier?

    Don't know what they're feeding them in the empire, but damn!
  • lcmiraclelcmiracle Registered Users Posts: 901
    edited May 4
    Vildvarg said:

    NVNM said:

    Basic Empire halberdiers have STR 4 dude. The same as a Space Marine in Power Armor.

    Take a space marine out of his power armor and he loses in an arm wrestling match with the unaugmented halberdier?

    Don't know what they're feeding them in the empire, but damn!
    The PA doesn't increase a marine's strength by that much, as can be seen from the 7th edition SM codex for Scout Squad profile when compared to the Space Marines'

    As you can see, the only difference it made on the level of detail given in a 40K battle is the armour save. The scout armour is inferior to the PA, obviously, but a SM scout and a SM fully-fledged marine are considered to have about the same level of strength, toughness and speed.

    Also I read from BoLS that Marines got 2 Wounds in 9E and Primaris got +1 to attack or something. Scouts didn't, but their strengths should still be comparable. 9E of course no longer uses the number stats and just uses flat to roll scores as stats, so I don't know how comparable post-7E stats are to 8E Warhammer fantasy stats.

    Also, for lols, here's the 8E empire halberdier profile


    I added the 1 to strength from the halberd and the armour save value from light armour.
  • Beytran70Beytran70 Registered Users Posts: 199
    Tfw naked Orcs covered in paint get more phys resist than Daemons.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 4,225
    In some novels Deamons could only be hurt by magic weapons, but it's been pretty inconsistent. It's never been a thing on the TT since that wouldn't work at all, Etherals were balanced while being immune to non-magic only by having terrible stats, which would not work for deamons.
    NVNM said:

    Basic Empire halberdiers have STR 4 dude. The same as a Space Marine in Power Armor.

    Strength and Tougnhess mean very different things in the two games. In 40K no human without genetic or technological enhancement has more than S 3, even elites, captains etc. are strength 3. Same for elves/Eldar, even the lords have S3. In Fantasy on the other hand lots of elite troops and all combat characters have S4 or better. So S4 in fantasy simply represents something else than in 40K. Also consider that a 16th century handgun in fantasy is S4 + armour piercing, while a fully automated assault rifle in 40K is S3 no AP.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 6,064
    Vildvarg said:

    NVNM said:

    Basic Empire halberdiers have STR 4 dude. The same as a Space Marine in Power Armor.

    Take a space marine out of his power armor and he loses in an arm wrestling match with the unaugmented halberdier?

    Don't know what they're feeding them in the empire, but damn!
    Memes aside, this is why I Fantasy will always be more badass than 40K. They face off against the same hordes of hell, greenskin barbarians, hordes of ravenous monsters and the ancient cunning cruelty of both the long dead and fell elder races, yet they do it without genetic engineering steroids for their men, building sized mechas, trillions of bodies to throw into the meat grinder, kilometer long warships, advanced sci-fi weaponry or doomsday devices. They do it with simple faith, steel and gunpowder, and by God they still hold fast.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

    Warhammer Deserves Naval Battles

  • PoorManatee6197PoorManatee6197 Registered Users Posts: 2,478
    Just balance, if only units with magical weapons could harm them 90% of the rosters couldnt do anything to them, the same with ghosts.
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Karaz Bryn, Karag Dum, Karak Vlag, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!

    IT'S HOBGOBBO TIME!!!!!!!
    #JusticeForKurgan
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,375
    Wyvax said:

    Vildvarg said:

    NVNM said:

    Basic Empire halberdiers have STR 4 dude. The same as a Space Marine in Power Armor.

    Take a space marine out of his power armor and he loses in an arm wrestling match with the unaugmented halberdier?

    Don't know what they're feeding them in the empire, but damn!
    Memes aside, this is why I Fantasy will always be more badass than 40K. They face off against the same hordes of hell, greenskin barbarians, hordes of ravenous monsters and the ancient cunning cruelty of both the long dead and fell elder races, yet they do it without genetic engineering steroids for their men, building sized mechas, trillions of bodies to throw into the meat grinder, kilometer long warships, advanced sci-fi weaponry or doomsday devices. They do it with simple faith, steel and gunpowder, and by God they still hold fast.
    Exactly. Also why the “durr humans boring” crowd miss one of the chief themes of the setting
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,938
    They have physical bodies.
  • Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157 Registered Users Posts: 6,486
    It’s a kids game with toy soldiers.
    So demons being hurt seems the least strange thing about it.
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