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BEars should cost more

ghostops01ghostops01 Junior MemberPosts: 23Registered Users
Hi all i see every time i fight a gun army is mostly bears that dont bug me except for the fact that the all cost around the same and there stats are greater than all other non elite unit vanilla wise. Black bears cost 50 more but they have insane stats and so do the whit bears i personally think the red bears are fine as they are at 800 but i think the white bears should cost 900 and the black bears 950 that or lower there accuracy for theses units by 5 and for the black bears in addition to accuracy there reload by 10 and they can keep the cost they have at the moment. What do you guys think on this solution and i am willing to take hard criticism because 90 percent of gun users have these unit in there army.
Post edited by ghostops01 on
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Comments

  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    ghostops01 wrote: »
    Hi all i see every time i fight a gun army is mostly bears that dont bug me except for the fact that the all cost around the same and there stats are greater than all other non elite unit vanilla wise. Black bears cost 50 more but they have insane stats and so do the whit bears i personally think the red bears are fine as they are at 800 but i think the white bears should cost 900 and the black bears 950 that or lower there accuracy for theses units by 5 and for the black bears in addition to accuracy there reload by 10 and they can keep the cost they have at the moment. What do you guys think on this solution and i am willing to take hard criticism because 90 percent of gun users have these unit in there army.

    please necro one of the many other threads about this topic rather than starting a new one. In the other posts the general consensus was that black bears aren't OP and AMP produced a demonstration video showing how although they have high stats the hidden costs of using different gun types means they fire slower than over units such as imperial inf.
  • Colonel MallardColonel Mallard Senior Member Posts: 1,044Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    please necro one of the many other threads about this topic rather than starting a new one. In the other posts the general consensus was that black bears aren't OP and AMP produced a demonstration video showing how although they have high stats the hidden costs of using different gun types means they fire slower than over units such as imperial inf.

    Not to mention how a lot of units use older rifles that reload much slower, bears included. This isn't reflected in the stats, so just add about 25 to the reload speed of all elite units, as well as shogunate and imperial infantry, and light infantry You can tell if you zoom up whether they're using a modern or not by zooming in and looking, or looking at the reload animation. I think the term for the more modern rifles is 'breech loading', whereas the bears and Aizu unique units have to reload down the barrel of their guns.

    Tldr; Bears are already balanced, and are, value for koku, worse than imperial infantry, by a lot.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it...

    "If at first you don't succeed, you fail."

    "All I know is that my gut says maybe" - President Average of the Neutral Planet

    Total War:Barbarian Invasion 2:The Invadening
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    I like to play test first before I call a unit OP unless the results during actually matches are clear as day the unit is OP. Imagine if others did the same that posted on these forums. You'd probably have alot less complaints of OP this or that. O.o
  • AnjinSanAnjinSan Senior Member Posts: 472Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    I like to play test first before I call a unit OP unless the results during actually matches are clear as day the unit is OP. Imagine if others did the same that posted on these forums. You'd probably have alot less complaints of OP this or that. O.o

    Imagine if CA actually listened to all this dribble and balanced the game off it. We'd have one unit of line infantry, one unit of cav, and one melee unit. All of which would be capped to a certain number and we'd only play on rice fields with all foliage removed.
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    AnjinSan wrote: »
    Imagine if CA actually listened to all this dribble and balanced the game off it. We'd have one unit of line infantry, one unit of cav, and one melee unit. All of which would be capped to a certain number and we'd only play on rice fields with all foliage removed.
    well if they do they need to note that 4/5 people so far think this guy is uninformed and wrong
  • Colonel MallardColonel Mallard Senior Member Posts: 1,044Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    nvm this post...
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it...

    "If at first you don't succeed, you fail."

    "All I know is that my gut says maybe" - President Average of the Neutral Planet

    Total War:Barbarian Invasion 2:The Invadening
  • ghostops01ghostops01 Junior Member Posts: 23Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Its just annoying beside the stat problem issues that's almost the only unit everyone uses im tired of seeing bears all the time that or they spam imp inf which is just annoying.
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    AnjinSan wrote: »
    Imagine if CA actually listened to all this dribble and balanced the game off it. We'd have one unit of line infantry, one unit of cav, and one melee unit. All of which would be capped to a certain number and we'd only play on rice fields with all foliage removed.

    Oh believe me there have been many times where they have done.

    The -20 FF penalty was all because CA paid far too much attention to one or two youtube casters whose win ratios were in the red because they were having trouble frontally charging their rush armies at gunlines. It took about 4 months before they restored balance to the system and made skirmish builds viable again - in the meantime everyone was forced into using melee rush builds only because guns and bows were toothless. Now sure guns reload rates needed a slight trim and FF needed to be balanced a little bit (I like the current system where guns just simply refuse to shoot), but nowhere near as much as what some people were demanding.

    In this case I can see a similar overreaction happening - I'll turn the game on one day and find that my black bear units cost 1400 koku and have a 2 unit cap just because someone doesn't like them. They're meant to be common because they're a line unit - it would be like complaining about the line infantry in Napoleon. Theres absolutely nothing OP about them.
    RedStag
  • wsx1986wsx1986 Senior Member Posts: 182Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    ghostops01 wrote: »
    Its just annoying beside the stat problem issues that's almost the only unit everyone uses im tired of seeing bears all the time that or they spam imp inf which is just annoying.

    They're just ill informed players who aren't aware of the fact that bear units use much slower muzzle loading guns.
    Also people keep complaining that players "spam" units. Okay, so what counts as unit spamming in this game?
    If I were to bring 7 line units of the same kind, I would be considered a spammer, correct? But if I were to bring 1 black bear, 1 white bear, 1 red bear, 1 imp inf, 1 sho inf, 1 imp guard inf, 1 sho guard inf, would you still call me a spammer because I brought 7 different line units? Probably not.
    But in my honest opinion, they are both the SAME. They both bring 7 line units, and they both rely on similar 'line them up and shoot' tactics. By this definition, the only way NOT to "SPAM" would be to bring some melee, some line, some skirmish, and some cavs, perhaps with an art unit if you will.
    I wish people would stop with all this "I hate bear spammers" nonsense.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Complaining about the amount of line infantry people bring even though that's the bulk of your options to choose from because of the time frame.

    Sad part is that it's not even the strongest setup using a ton of line infantry and people just keep playing the norm and complaining instead of changing how they play and their army composition to roll over line infy spam.
  • Colonel MallardColonel Mallard Senior Member Posts: 1,044Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    wsx1986 wrote: »
    They're just ill informed players who aren't aware of the fact that bear units use much slower muzzle loading guns.
    Also people keep complaining that players "spam" units. Okay, so what counts as unit spamming in this game?
    If I were to bring 7 line units of the same kind, I would be considered a spammer, correct? But if I were to bring 1 black bear, 1 white bear, 1 red bear, 1 imp inf, 1 sho inf, 1 imp guard inf, 1 sho guard inf, would you still call me a spammer because I brought 7 different line units? Probably not.
    But in my honest opinion, they are both the SAME. They both bring 7 line units, and they both rely on similar 'line them up and shoot' tactics. By this definition, the only way NOT to "SPAM" would be to bring some melee, some line, some skirmish, and some cavs, perhaps with an art unit if you will.
    I wish people would stop with all this "I hate bear spammers" nonsense.

    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.

    Every unit should be equally cost effective, it should all depend on how you use them, what units you use them in combination with and whether you spam them or not. It shouldn't just be because they are the designated OP unit before the next patch. Take marathon monks for example; better melee, worse numbers, tiny speed improvement. They simply aren't worth it, because they can't pull their weight in melee, and their speed bonus is so tiny that the enemy will see the from a mile away. They don't even have rapid advance; there's no reason to bring them. That to me is the sort of situation that needs to be fixed by the people balancing the game.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it...

    "If at first you don't succeed, you fail."

    "All I know is that my gut says maybe" - President Average of the Neutral Planet

    Total War:Barbarian Invasion 2:The Invadening
  • wsx1986wsx1986 Senior Member Posts: 182Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.

    Every unit should be equally cost effective, it should all depend on how you use them, what units you use them in combination with and whether you spam them or not. It shouldn't just be because they are the designated OP unit before the next patch. Take marathon monks for example; better melee, worse numbers, tiny speed improvement. They simply aren't worth it, because they can't pull their weight in melee, and their speed bonus is so tiny that the enemy will see the from a mile away. They don't even have rapid advance; there's no reason to bring them. That to me is the sort of situation that needs to be fixed by the people balancing the game.

    Sure, if you bring tortoises for heavy line shooting, they'll be useless. But when I use them, I use them in melee builds, where I don't want to spend too much on line units, but to bring none is going to get a lot of my melee units killed. So I bring about 3-4 tortoises just so they can line up against enemy line units and shoot a couple of volleys while I bring in my melee from a better angle without getting razed down. For this purpose, even vanilla tortoise units do just fine. The problem comes when you try to use them as your core.
    You can't simply say that a unit is OP just because you think one unit fares better than another similar unit in one or two circumstances.
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.

    Every unit should be equally cost effective, it should all depend on how you use them, what units you use them in combination with and whether you spam them or not. It shouldn't just be because they are the designated OP unit before the next patch. Take marathon monks for example; better melee, worse numbers, tiny speed improvement. They simply aren't worth it, because they can't pull their weight in melee, and their speed bonus is so tiny that the enemy will see the from a mile away. They don't even have rapid advance; there's no reason to bring them. That to me is the sort of situation that needs to be fixed by the people balancing the game.

    There are many different choices for people to make and for advanced players the diversity in the line units really allows you to pick and choose the type of army that you want and to optimise it best in a way that suits you.

    I am a cav player first and foremost - I am too lazy to be bothered with the kiting duels that always happen the moment that you encounter another player with the same number of extended range units as you do and when you both have similar cavalry arms. Rather than spending a huge amount of money on black bears with the customary extended range or 2 x reload, I decide to take eight cavalry instead and then back these up with as many black tortoises as I can afford. Sometimes I will change this setup and go for 7 cav and 1 extended range unit, usually a marine. If I didn't take the cheaper black tortoises I wouldn't be able to afford the real hitting arm in my force, which is ultimately the cavalry rather than the infantry. So, black tortoises have their uses - white tigers are also very useful if you're running a cavalry based force and only need to use your infantry in a supporting rather than a main line role.

    Nobody uses the white bears and this seems very strange to me as they are one of the best all round units in the game - far more useful, especially on the dense terrain maps than the black bears, as they will hold out much better in melee and have shooting stats that are almost as good. They also cost less, which means that you have more money spare for additional unit upgrades, or for other troops types than what you would with a black bear core. Paying 6 x 50 koku extra for half a dozen black bear units does add up and takes away a lot of money that you could spend elsewhere on elite units or veterancy upgrades.

    Red bears are perhaps more limited, but they could be useful as skirmish units to take into terrain heavy maps as their higher melee stats will mean that they'll hold up better in melee combat. They may also be more useful as flanking forces in support of cavalry as their stats will give them much greater resistance to cavalry attacks. They're a specialist unit in my view though, but not without their uses.

    Azure dragons are nice when you have money leftover than you just can't spend - they might be useful as a stronger ranged core for a cav army. I am sure most players will figure out very quickly that they are not a main line unit and are more something that you bring if you need to fill a gap for the most part.

    Vermilion birds are good as a cheap inspiring unit - at 1000 they are very useful in small numbers, playing a supportive role to the main force. Shinsensgumi are excellent multi-purpose units that you can use to give a mixture of melee capabilities and firepower to a rush type build - I've been using them fairly effectively on my rush account - although it wouldn't be wise to run them as a core.

    Imperial/shogunate infantry/ guard and marines are all useful as top tier choices and are probably the best units to put extended range on given the fact that they are hard to take down with cav and because they start out with strong stats from the beginning.

    So all the ranged units have their purpose - some are more useful as main line units, others as specialists or cav support troops and some make for conveniently priced gap filler. None of them need to be rebalanced as none of them are particularly OP or poorly priced. Just leave them as they are and be done with it. Most players will pick the units that work for them, based upon trial and error and their own experiences in the game.
    RedStag
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.

    Black bears are pretty on par with equally costing vetted azure dragons and vetted black tortoise in shootout tests that I ran. Another person infected by this black bear syndrome?
  • MoscMosc Member Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Why get Azure Dragons when you can spend 40 more and get White Bears which gives you +5 reload/accuracy and +1 melee/defense. I still think its ridiculous that we have 3 bears units that cost between 800- 850.

    imperial players are out in force to protect their care bears.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    ^
    I'm an imperial player and I don't even use bears really maybe 1 or 2 tops sometimes to finish off my koku when I have 800-850 left and I don't feel like toying with my funds, but most matches of mine I don't even play with them. So I don't know who you are referring to when you say "imperial players are out in force to protect their care bears". It makes no difference what I am because very rarely do I use my one rank 9 imperial cav and my one rank 9 black bear that I have. In fact sometimes I wish I was the shogunate clan so I could get the rank 9 ammo upgrade for the revolver cav because I love that unit and would love to vaporize more units with just one revolver cav and happy pay 500 koku to do that over buying another revolver cav to fit certain builds I wanna use.

    Anyway who cares about a miniscule balance issue between azure dragons and white bears. The shootout difference is barely noticeable... like I said test it out yourself I already did or do I need to once again make another test video? Black tortoise vetted with reload/accuracy costing 860 out perform black bears by a very very small amount costing just 10 more koku, so yeah lets complain about that as well shall we? What dose it matter there are 3 different bears anyway... they aren't OP, so why give a ****.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited April 2012
    I use vanilla whitetigers as my shooting force. Bears cost too much.
  • MoscMosc Member Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Just because you don't use them doesn't mean others don't. It's about having options and being a Shogunate player feels limited when wanting to have mid price linemen to upgrade as a main line unit. Apparently people do care about the miniscule balance. Again, just because you don't care, doesn't mean other don't.

    Make all the test videos you want it, still doesn't mean jack when you add in battlefield conditions. Tortoise have 6 morale compared to bears 8. Meaning they route a lot faster especially against cavalry, suppression fire or artillery. Morale is a big factor and Tortoise are unreliably due to this. Notice how people say that Azure Dragons and black Tortoise aren't made to be used as a main line unit? But its ok for bears to be?

    Bears aren't OP, but they are cost effective which is the problem and no one can deny that. The only bear unit that i think is fine are red bears. I want balance and variety in this game and i grow tired of seeing Black/White bears + Marines consistently.

    If you rarely use vetted imperial units then switch to Shogunate. Whats the hold up?
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited April 2012
    Why change something that isn't broken? lvl2 BB's aren't even cost effective at all,vanilla Imp/Shog line infantry cost 10 more with +5 more ammo. and shoot faster than BBs. White/Black bears arent even a threat, people who just spam line infantry wouldn't even know that, because they don't use melee units. People who field balanced armies would know that someone who fields just line infantry is pretty easy to beat. Tortoises/Azures make a good compliment in balanced armies due to their cheap cost.
  • MoscMosc Member Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    It isn't broken, but it isn't working good either.

    They're cost effective when you're trying to save every fund you can. Black/White bears make great support units for 150 range marines. They're cost effective at standard or level 9.

    I rarely see anyone only use line infantry. You don't need to spam bears to use them effectively, so stop using that argument.

    Am not complaining about white/black bears because i lose to them but because they overall make the game boring when you consistently see the same units being used. The only unit that can't be helped with being used consistently are Yari Ki due to the limited number of melee cavalry.

    I would say that white/black bears need a 20-30 fund increase.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited April 2012
    Mosc wrote: »
    't need to spam bears to use them effectively, so stop using that argument.

    Same can be said abou BTs and AZs. Tell me, whats the meaning of "cost effective"? How is a bear "cost effective"? Your argument has no valid foundation, just because a majority of players use Black/White bears doesn't mean squat. Any unit makes great support units for 150 range, be it black bears, black tortoises, white tiger any line infantry works well with Marines. Most players bring mostly line infantry in their armies, very rare for them to field strong melee infantry components.

    A proposition for just 20-30 koku increase is just absurd, no need to make such a big deal at all.
  • MoscMosc Member Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Same cost effective like loan swords. Meaning they can perform just as good as the more expensive units allowing you to get more upgrades/units with the extra money you saved. You seem to not know anything about balance. People use black/white bears for a reason. Same reason why most people in Battlefield 3 were using the fore grip + silencer attachment. Because it was good and there was little reason to use anything else. DICE has since fixed this by balancing all attachments and now there is no best attachment setup. Are Bears+marines the best setup? No, but their **** good for the price and the extra money saved allows you to make up for its few shortcomings

    Tortoise and white tigers are ok support for marines. But they need to stay near the marines for the morale boost, which limits them. Even then, they'll lose to the much better linemen who don't have morale problems and can flank alone.

    Maybe people don't bring melee infantry because they use melee cavalry? I don't use melee infantry because i bring sabre cavalry to deal with sword units or threaten linemen when people try to send forth their spear levy meat shields. Hell, dismounted sabre cavalry can beat spear levy. Melee Cavalry + Linemen are strong setups.

    The only thing absurd here is that red and white bears cost the same.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Once again you said "imperial players are out in force to protect their care bears", so who exactly are you referring to there? You posted that here like you're insinuating that all those not backing up the claim that bears are cost effective are bear lovers or something.

    Bears are a step above those units just like imperial infantry and shogunate infantry are a step above bears. They all are imbalanced by a very miniscule amount. These balance gaps are nothing compared to all those balance issues in S2, yet lets rage over bears just because they are the most common middle unit to be picked in 10k 14k fund games and you're tired of seeing them? They are all gun units that do the same thing, so dose it matter that you see bears over their lesser counter parts that all do the same thing, just shoot?

    And as for your comment as why I don't switch over to the shogunate clan, maybe that's because I'd rather wait and collect tokens again before doing that? I very rarely use my rank 9 units but I do like to use them from time to time, so why switch so early leaving me with none? I'd rather switch when I have enough tokens to spend on the rank 9 upgrades right away.

    Yes I'm a care bear lover and I never use melee infantry. I rolled over this guy with my bears and I didn't have any melee infantry check out this pic... http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/558686660211705103/1F227B42D5BA2ABBF01B92DED0EB75E4DDDF66F2/
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Mosc wrote: »
    Just because you don't use them doesn't mean others don't. It's about having options and being a Shogunate player feels limited when wanting to have mid price linemen to upgrade as a main line unit. Apparently people do care about the miniscule balance. Again, just because you don't care, doesn't mean other don't.

    Make all the test videos you want it, still doesn't mean jack when you add in battlefield conditions. Tortoise have 6 morale compared to bears 8. Meaning they route a lot faster especially against cavalry, suppression fire or artillery. Morale is a big factor and Tortoise are unreliably due to this. Notice how people say that Azure Dragons and black Tortoise aren't made to be used as a main line unit? But its ok for bears to be?

    Bears aren't OP, but they are cost effective which is the problem and no one can deny that. The only bear unit that i think is fine are red bears. I want balance and variety in this game and i grow tired of seeing Black/White bears + Marines consistently.

    If you rarely use vetted imperial units then switch to Shogunate. Whats the hold up?
    The point was that they are not an essential bring or you loose the game unit as you made them out to be, when good players speak you ought to listen.
    There are many different choices for people to make and for advanced players the diversity in the line units really allows you to pick and choose the type of army that you want and to optimise it best in a way that suits you.
    This post deserves its own thread just to educate the idiots out there.
  • MoscMosc Member Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Its in the imperial players best interest to keep bears the most cost effective linemen even if they don't use them now, they may want to upgrade them later.

    You don't get it, its about balancing both factions but also offering variety. Having 5+reload/accuracy and +1 melee/defense isn't a miniscule amount when comparing Azure Dragons and White bears. That's a lot of stats for only 40funds. Bears are the most common middle unit because they're the only middle unit worth getting.

    All guns do the overall same thing, which is shoot. But the difference is some do it better then others or offer something else. Example would be red bears or Shinsengumi Police Force. They give up gun stats for melee. Guns in a FPS all do the same thing, so should devs only make 1 or maybe 2 guns?
  • MoscMosc Member Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    The point was that they are not an essential bring or you loose the game unit as you made them out to be, when good players speak you ought to listen.

    This post deserves its own thread just to educate the idiots out there.

    This makes me laugh. So am not a good player? lol what a joke. I too been playing total war games since the start like many others here so am pretty sure i have a good idea of the game. I have about a 80% win ratio, but i also don't play as often as others because i like to play other games. But i do always come back to Shogun 2 for my strategy/tactics fix.

    Hell, i been playing these type of tactical games before total war. Look up a game called Myth made by Bungie if you ever wonder were CA got the idea of making the sprites/3D battle part of the game.

    Take you own advice, a good player is speaking, so start listening and take notes.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Thing is they aren't the most cost effective linemen... Shogunate infantry and Imperial infantry have the same exact gap or even bigger! And upgrading them for their range increase isn't really that beneficial. You're paying over 400 koku when you try to go for their rank 9 range increase when they are only on par at killing power compared to Shogunate infantry and Imperial infantry. If you just didn't happen to get your first shot off with the extra range you just ****ed away all that koku for nothing. Here's a test run comparing a rank 9 black bear to a vanilla imperial infantry in killing power... you must make sure you use that extra range to your advantage or that's alot of wasted koku. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6uVXhur_Kg

    And white bears having +5 AC/reload along with +1 melee/defense costing 800 compared to the azure dragons that cost 760 is nothing really. When you vet just 1 point in reload making the azure dragons costing only 10 koku more they are exactly on par in killing power with the white bears, so really the balance difference is they just cost 10 more koku and they have 1 less melee and defense point. That really is nothing when you also consider the fact you won't be using them for melee like ever. So even if you adjusted the white bears cost to match the azure dragons that would only make white bears cost more placing them out of play just like the red bears because they have +1melee/defense which just means people will use either azure dragons or black bears. And in the end hardly matters because they are gun units used only for shooting. Hardly anyone uses red bears for their slightly higher melee stats or shinsengumi police force because it's all about the shootout. Thing is why stop there, why only the bears? Might as well adjust almost ALL the prices of ALL units to match each other.

    There is nothing wrong with hybrid guns, but they won't get used like hardly ever. You don't see experienced players using them and there is a reason for that. It's all about the shootout.

    And an 80% ratio is nothing for MM when the over all skill lvl of people who play this game is very low. If you're a good player you definitely should have higher than 80% in MM even if you don't play that much.
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Posts: 1,502Banned Users
    edited April 2012
    you gotta also add the Drop losses in the early times.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Yeah I had plenty of those when the game was 1st released, but still managed well over 80%. Once that was fixed though anyone good should be able to increase their ratio no problem.
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited April 2012
    Mosc wrote: »
    This makes me laugh. So am not a good player? lol what a joke. I too been playing total war games since the start like many others here so am pretty sure i have a good idea of the game. I have about a 80% win ratio, but i also don't play as often as others because i like to play other games. But i do always come back to Shogun 2 for my strategy/tactics fix.

    Hell, i been playing these type of tactical games before total war. Look up a game called Myth made by Bungie if you ever wonder were CA got the idea of making the sprites/3D battle part of the game.

    Take you own advice, a good player is speaking, so start listening and take notes.
    I dont care what your ratio is, the fact is that a lot of good players are telling you that they are balanced and you are just ignoring them, compare how many people agree they should be nerfed vs how many they shouldn't.
    If the games so imba for imperial clans its a simple matter of clicking a button on the clan options page, personally I don't care my typical battle line is actually shogunate inf because I like there tin hats more than the imperials ones. you are correct that each unit should be as cost effective as any other however I dont think they make other units unviable it just depends on what you use the units for. Also what about kihetia, guard inf and even carbine cav I think they're more under powered than BB are overpowered perhaps having more powerful elites that are capable of punching through BB would discourage they're use, and that would solve to problems with one stone.
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