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Powercreep is once again becoming an issue since the last patch.

13

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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 37,351

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    I disagree.
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  • NinaranNinaran Registered Users Posts: 517
    Regular basic Kossars getting +5 flat AP missile damage in addition to 15% reload time reduction is absolutely **** insane, too. Can't forget those.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,339

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 34,880

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 15,216
    ArneSo said:

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    For that there is easy difficulty setting or cheat mods.

  • LunaticprinceLunaticprince Registered Users Posts: 6,527
    I not get why flashy mechanics and balance have to close each other out?

    I of course enjoy op stuff as the next guy but if i feel just more joy when i can use a mechanic or unit wisely to get my victory

    instead of yeah one click delete


  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 34,880
    Neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    For that there is easy difficulty setting or cheat mods.
    I agree with you completely but unfortunately CA has a different vision. We complained here about Powercreep for ages now and CA got worse and worse.

    Every LP added more powercreep than the previous one and it all reached the ultimate climax with Taurox
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
  • DrazhoaththeAshenDrazhoaththeAshen Registered Users Posts: 850
    ArneSo said:

    Neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    For that there is easy difficulty setting or cheat mods.
    I agree with you completely but unfortunately CA has a different vision. We complained here about Powercreep for ages now and CA got worse and worse.

    Every LP added more powercreep than the previous one and it all reached the ultimate climax with Taurox
    Seems to me the only way to go from Taurox is back down. Maybe I lack imagination, but I can't see a way that the player experience could get easier than Taurox. Casualties are not even worth a moment's thought. There isn't any real campaign map management. His movement makes the need for careful assessment of a situation completely out of the equation.
    Neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    For that there is easy difficulty setting or cheat mods.
    To be fair, there are also mods that exist to make the campaign more difficult. That knife cuts both ways.
    The sage never tries to store things up.
    The more he does for others, the more he has.
    The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.
    The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.
    The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 15,216
    edited May 20

    Neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    For that there is easy difficulty setting or cheat mods.
    To be fair, there are also mods that exist to make the campaign more difficult. That knife cuts both ways.
    That's true but using mods to make something overpowered is more ideal than using mods to balance the game. Making something OP is easy, you just gotta crank the numbers up and that's it while balancing the game requires a lot of testing to make sure something isn't too strong or too weak. Ideally we should have a balanced game and the people who wish to make the game easy can just download mods for it.

  • DrazhoaththeAshenDrazhoaththeAshen Registered Users Posts: 850
    Neodeinos said:

    Neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    For that there is easy difficulty setting or cheat mods.
    To be fair, there are also mods that exist to make the campaign more difficult. That knife cuts both ways.
    That's true but using mods to make something overpowered is more ideal than using mods to balance the game. Making something OP is easy, you just gotta crank the numbers up and that's it while balancing the game requires a lot of testing to make sure something isn't too strong or too weak. Ideally we should have a balanced game and the people who wish to make the game easy can just download mods for it.
    I'll agree with that. I think my own wires were crossed because there is a segment of people who argue that the game should be unbalanced in the other direction. You're right that the ideal should be working out from the middle than from either side of the extreme, absolutely.
    The sage never tries to store things up.
    The more he does for others, the more he has.
    The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.
    The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.
    The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,465
    ArneSo said:

    As the player give me even more power. It’s what many want.

    A lot of posts here are about multiplayer. Important to the 65 people in that community, but not relevant to overpower conversations for SP.

    Many More of us want a semblance of balance in our campaigns
    Many of us hardcore fans on the forum. Yes, including me.

    But Casual Joe who just plays WH for the spectacle and the lulz enjoys more Power.
    This is why TW has sucked since it stopped catering to the strategy niche.

    I just wish someone else would grab the formula and run with it and cater to the actual strategy fans. I no longer have any faith that CA will ever return Total War to being a serious franchise. I doubt we'll ever see a pure historical game again, either. There will always be some romance mode shenanigans. They've gone all in for easier gameplay along a theme as opposed to any sort of real 4X formula. So have many previously 4X franchises.

    I swear there is nothing worse for a game than success. It always, always sells out to the 68%.
  • steam_164508488204ksLEMXCsteam_164508488204ksLEMXC Registered Users Posts: 249

    Neodeinos said:



    Well Indypride just did a video about the Crane Gunners.


    This does confirm that the units should be treated as artillery and the tech tree/skill tree interactions need to be adjusted to reflect that.
    They are already in the red skill tree with the artillery units as are the iron hail gunners. Their 1 sole tech in the whole tree that they get does not need to be changed in the slightest.

  • Spellbound1875Spellbound1875 Registered Users Posts: 1,722

    Neodeinos said:



    Well Indypride just did a video about the Crane Gunners.


    This does confirm that the units should be treated as artillery and the tech tree/skill tree interactions need to be adjusted to reflect that.
    They are already in the red skill tree with the artillery units as are the iron hail gunners. Their 1 sole tech in the whole tree that they get does not need to be changed in the slightest.

    I was referring to the type of boni rhey receive from the tech tree. Usually artillery units don't receive direct damage increases because they can double dip by hitting multiple entities. Currently Crane Gunners get a 10 percent WS boost for their missiles, which is either +4 or +8 per entity depending on circumstances.

    Switching that out with reload speed or ammo would be more appropriate since the unit functions like Hellblasters rather than crossbows.
  • GhettobibleGhettobible Registered Users Posts: 290
    I don't see the issue with certain low tier units being buffed with certain lords. It follows a theme for that Lord usually.

    Without it you'd see Grom with orcs instead of gobbos etc and make the game play the exact same as everything else. Generic lords don't get those same buffs so you have to build a bit different.

    Sounds like people want you to build the same exact army no matter who they're playing as.
  • boosykesboosykes Registered Users Posts: 139
    edited May 21

    I don't see the issue with certain low tier units being buffed with certain lords. It follows a theme for that Lord usually.

    Without it you'd see Grom with orcs instead of gobbos etc and make the game play the exact same as everything else. Generic lords don't get those same buffs so you have to build a bit different.

    Sounds like people want you to build the same exact army no matter who they're playing as.

    Ya no idea why this would ever be an issue the problem is with overpowered units and factions. Not flavorful factions Though it would be cool if they played differently on campaign and maybe went about being strong in different ways in battles.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,458
    Trolling and personal remark posts removed,including several quoting in a response.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
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    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • GhettobibleGhettobible Registered Users Posts: 290
    Ninaran said:

    Regular basic Kossars getting +5 flat AP missile damage in addition to 15% reload time reduction is absolutely **** insane, too. Can't forget those.

    That's to help Kos and his crappy start and probably future Kislev Lords. If you run into Exiles or Khorne factions early you just lose since you have no AP. Kat doesn't have this issue after turn 35 or so if you build smart. The buff was certainly needed.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,820
    I don’t get this thread. Seems like the logic is 1 unit, Crane Gunners, got buffed therefore power creep.

    What about the 90% of the time I’m not playing as Cathay? Doesn’t that mean the AI is getting the benefit of the buffed units not me?
  • bli-nkbli-nk Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,839
    edited May 22
    Theo91 said:

    I don’t get this thread. Seems like the logic is 1 unit, Crane Gunners, got buffed therefore power creep.

    What about the 90% of the time I’m not playing as Cathay? Doesn’t that mean the AI is getting the benefit of the buffed units not me?

    Yeah that is part of the complaint. Some people enjoy buff stacking when they do it and rarely notice the AI doing it because it only happens with random luck or the AI is outright coded to never use certain abilities or mechanics available to the player.

    However, when a unit that you encounter frequently receives a huge buff- even if not in your roster, it can be quite annoying when that unit feels themetically/lore plain wrong and affects how you build your armies.

    It is not a single problem most people have but a combination of complaints and then there are a few extra loud people who just care way too much about a single issue and make 20 threads about it every week.
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • eomateomat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,693
    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.
  • boosykesboosykes Registered Users Posts: 139
    Theo91 said:

    I don’t get this thread. Seems like the logic is 1 unit, Crane Gunners, got buffed therefore power creep.

    What about the 90% of the time I’m not playing as Cathay? Doesn’t that mean the AI is getting the benefit of the buffed units not me?

    Ya no worries your probably just new. So its like this the Ai picks skills at random so your already not likely to run into the crazy buffed celestial dragon crossbows with something like 233 ranged damage. So just that is very unlikely another reason ranged is not nearly so oppressive in the hands of the AI is that even on legendary/ very hard battles they will shoot at whatever comes in line of sight first and they always keep skirmish mode on so someone who has played awhile will only let them get maybe one volley before the are ether running them away which even slow infantry can do. They shoot at something hard and then your flyers or cav are on them because the AI is not very bright. so muti part strategy's are hard for the ai to pull off. Thats why overpowered units always disproportionally are in the players favor. A real player will feed one group of archers to your flyer if they cant shoot it or stop it and use the rest to shoot the flyers. AI struggle with things like this. I cant wait for good AI it will be fun to see the excuses people come up with when the AI simply outplays them. Probably something like why does CA hate fun. Its not to hard its just tedious and stuff. o wait they do that now well maybe they will find some new material by then.
  • Spellbound1875Spellbound1875 Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.

    They aren't snipers though. They're wall guns.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_gun

    They're literally a light artillery unit, if they wanted snipers CA could add a unit of rifles. They existed at the same time, just weren't worthwhile to deploy in large numbers until later innovations.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,465
    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.

    Only artillery should ever really penetrate like that, IMO.

    I can't speak to WH3, but in WH1 and WH2, artillery is the red headed step child. It's supposed to be a direct answer to monsters and monstrous infantry -- the way factions that are light on those deal with such things. In this series though, they're completely and wholly incapable of downing any large SEM and seem to miss most MI.

    It's dumb. Basic bows and what not aren't meant for tough stuff, they're meant for downing infantry. Game needs to remove most of the AP in these things and buff up artillery properly.
  • steam_164508488204ksLEMXCsteam_164508488204ksLEMXC Registered Users Posts: 249
    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.

    Have you seen what snipers can do in real life? Even an old Mosin Nagant is devistatingly powerful. They definitely should be able to go more than one unit, a body is not very resistant to bullets after all. Nothing else in this game should come close to the penetrating power of a jezzail. Gun wise I mean.
  • steam_164508488204ksLEMXCsteam_164508488204ksLEMXC Registered Users Posts: 249

    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.

    They aren't snipers though. They're wall guns.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_gun

    They're literally a light artillery unit, if they wanted snipers CA could add a unit of rifles. They existed at the same time, just weren't worthwhile to deploy in large numbers until later innovations.
    Thanks. I thought they were proto snipers as well so happy to learn and be shown otherwise.
  • Fingolfin_the-GoldenFingolfin_the-Golden Registered Users Posts: 5,722
    Theo91 said:

    I don’t get this thread. Seems like the logic is 1 unit, Crane Gunners, got buffed therefore power creep.

    What about the 90% of the time I’m not playing as Cathay? Doesn’t that mean the AI is getting the benefit of the buffed units not me?

    People love some drama and invented issues.

    One unit is not power creep.
    Especially the best gun unit in the entire trilogy.
    ‘Oh no, best ranged unit is the best ranged unit’
    BEARS, Beets, Battlestar Galactica 🧝‍♀️ Pandas too please CA!
  • Fingolfin_the-GoldenFingolfin_the-Golden Registered Users Posts: 5,722

    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.

    They aren't snipers though. They're wall guns.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_gun

    They're literally a light artillery unit, if they wanted snipers CA could add a unit of rifles. They existed at the same time, just weren't worthwhile to deploy in large numbers until later innovations.
    Thanks. I thought they were proto snipers as well so happy to learn and be shown otherwise.

    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.


    They're literally a light artillery unit, if they wanted snipers CA could add a unit of rifles.
    They are literally not an artillery unit in the game.
    Literally.
    BEARS, Beets, Battlestar Galactica 🧝‍♀️ Pandas too please CA!
  • Fingolfin_the-GoldenFingolfin_the-Golden Registered Users Posts: 5,722
    edited May 22
    boosykes said:

    Theo91 said:

    I don’t get this thread. Seems like the logic is 1 unit, Crane Gunners, got buffed therefore power creep.

    What about the 90% of the time I’m not playing as Cathay? Doesn’t that mean the AI is getting the benefit of the buffed units not me?

    Ya no worries your probably just new. So its like this the Ai picks skills at random so your already not likely to run into the crazy buffed celestial dragon crossbows with something like 233 ranged damage. So just that is very unlikely another reason ranged is not nearly so oppressive in the hands of the AI is that even on legendary/ very hard battles they will shoot at whatever comes in line of sight first and they always keep skirmish mode on so someone who has played awhile will only let them get maybe one volley before the are ether running them away which even slow infantry can do. They shoot at something hard and then your flyers or cav are on them because the AI is not very bright. so muti part strategy's are hard for the ai to pull off. Thats why overpowered units always disproportionally are in the players favor. A real player will feed one group of archers to your flyer if they cant shoot it or stop it and use the rest to shoot the flyers. AI struggle with things like this. I cant wait for good AI it will be fun to see the excuses people come up with when the AI simply outplays them. Probably something like why does CA hate fun. Its not to hard its just tedious and stuff. o wait they do that now well maybe they will find some new material by then.
    Maybe you are new at the game.
    But you definitely come up against crane gunners as opposition.


    Also the definition of power creep is not that AI ranged units use skirmish mode. Not related.
    BEARS, Beets, Battlestar Galactica 🧝‍♀️ Pandas too please CA!
  • Spellbound1875Spellbound1875 Registered Users Posts: 1,722

    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.

    They aren't snipers though. They're wall guns.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_gun

    They're literally a light artillery unit, if they wanted snipers CA could add a unit of rifles. They existed at the same time, just weren't worthwhile to deploy in large numbers until later innovations.
    Thanks. I thought they were proto snipers as well so happy to learn and be shown otherwise.

    eomat said:

    Snipers shouldn't be able to penetrate multiple units. That is one of the things making them insane.


    They're literally a light artillery unit, if they wanted snipers CA could add a unit of rifles.
    They are literally not an artillery unit in the game.
    Literally.
    I find this argument really strange since it seems to rely on the tags CA puts on units as the end all be all, even when the tags CA puts on units are known to be wildly inconsistent. All shock cav are anti-infantry despite lacking an anti-infantry bonus, whether or not spawn should have soporific musk was unclear for months, etc.

    Flamethrowers, gas mortars, jezzails, and machine guns are all just "weapons teams" even though they perform wildly different roles. The fact of the matter is there isn't even a single category called artillery in the game. We have siege artillery, field artillery, catapults (which I assume most people would identify as artillery even if the game doesn't), as well as rocket battery and "Field Gun" even though field artillery is a thing.

    It's much more practical to go based on unit performance and ideal targets. Crane Guns perform like artillery after CA changed their mechanics and price to be in line with artillery, so that is the easiest way to conceptualize them.

    And this is ignoring both the historical inspiration and the fact that CA describes them as artillery in the units flavor text...
  • boosykesboosykes Registered Users Posts: 139

    boosykes said:

    Theo91 said:

    I don’t get this thread. Seems like the logic is 1 unit, Crane Gunners, got buffed therefore power creep.

    What about the 90% of the time I’m not playing as Cathay? Doesn’t that mean the AI is getting the benefit of the buffed units not me?

    Ya no worries your probably just new. So its like this the Ai picks skills at random so your already not likely to run into the crazy buffed celestial dragon crossbows with something like 233 ranged damage. So just that is very unlikely another reason ranged is not nearly so oppressive in the hands of the AI is that even on legendary/ very hard battles they will shoot at whatever comes in line of sight first and they always keep skirmish mode on so someone who has played awhile will only let them get maybe one volley before the are ether running them away which even slow infantry can do. They shoot at something hard and then your flyers or cav are on them because the AI is not very bright. so muti part strategy's are hard for the ai to pull off. Thats why overpowered units always disproportionally are in the players favor. A real player will feed one group of archers to your flyer if they cant shoot it or stop it and use the rest to shoot the flyers. AI struggle with things like this. I cant wait for good AI it will be fun to see the excuses people come up with when the AI simply outplays them. Probably something like why does CA hate fun. Its not to hard its just tedious and stuff. o wait they do that now well maybe they will find some new material by then.
    Maybe you are new at the game.
    But you definitely come up against crane gunners as opposition.


    Also the definition of power creep is not that AI ranged units use skirmish mode. Not related.
    lol i have beaten the game with many races on legendary with very hard battles. I find the game far to easy and would like it to be more challenging this is the opposite of that.
    Sorry i thought you where new when you are talking like the AI is any sort of challenge. but that doesn't mean we need to make the player job even easier. Cran gunners and CDC are over powered i finished Cathey with she dragon on legendary with very hard battles before even 1.1 They ranged is very strong i could see crane gunners getting a small buff from there but not CDC but the buffs are way out of line on crane gunners and the CDC needed no buffs.
    Anyways this is getting boring i get some like to just stomp the game, that not me its labeled strategy for a reason one should have to strategize to win.
    When is the last time you really had to think in this game on legendary / very hard that difficulty should be almost unbeatable certainly no more than 1% of the player base and right now its at 1.7% that's way to high they need to figure out how to get some challenge back into the game. Not for it to just be a cake walk. This is what i like about history titles they are way better balanced and much more challenging. I don't use cheese and i don't doom stack and yet i cant find some kind of challenge from the highest difficulty. That should never happen. War hammer 2 is sitting at 2.5 % having beaten it on legendary if we get into 2% this game is getting far to easy. Simple as that.
    I want a good challenge i don't want to see Buffs for units that if anything are overperforming CDC Crane gunners need a buff now they are to strong.

    Why do most want the campaign made easy? There is a difficulty setting for that its called easy. At the end of the day i want a fun engaging game that That has some challenge on the highest difficulty. If others want to stomp why not play on easy?
    What is with the obsession of making games easy? I understand wanting to be challenged so that your engaged. But what do people get out of a video game which is nothing more than an elaborate puzzle by making it easier?
    How do people get any enjoyment form simply facerolling?
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